Ramana Temp

Ramana Maharshi => The teachings of Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi => Topic started by: Hari on May 16, 2012, 08:57:20 PM

Title: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 16, 2012, 08:57:20 PM
The mind is everything. The mind is ours. Then why we say that we cannot change anything? If part of man's karma is to prick his little finger and mind is so powerful then why this man cannot change this little thing like pricking his little finger? Is really the mind so helpless?
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: prasanth_ramana_maharshi on May 16, 2012, 09:19:35 PM
In Gita,Arjuna accepts that it is easy to control wind but not easy to control the mind.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: sanjaya_ganesh on May 16, 2012, 09:25:06 PM
Mind is like small kids - a big attention seeker. Does lot of things to seek your attention. If you give attention, it becomes cranky more and more and shows off more to seek more attention. If you dont pay attention when it becomes cranky, it does it once, twice, thrice and then it stops - as there is none to encourage it.

-Sanjay
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 16, 2012, 09:50:37 PM
Quote
In Gita,Arjuna accepts that it is easy to control wind but not easy to control the mind.

But what about people who can control their minds?
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: prasanth_ramana_maharshi on May 16, 2012, 11:37:33 PM
yes that is the reason in the next sloka lord krishna says though it is difficult to control mind it is not possible by constant practice and detachment.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 17, 2012, 08:20:58 AM
D.: How to control the mind?
M.: What is mind? Whose is the mind?
D.: Mind always wanders. I cannot control it.
M.: It is the nature of the mind to wander. You are not the mind. The mind springs up and sinks down. It is impermanent, transitory, whereas you are eternal. There is nothing but the Self. To inhere in the Self is the thing. Never mind the mind. If its source is sought, it will vanish leaving the Self unaffected.

D.: So one need not seek to control the mind?
M.: There is no mind to control if you realise the Self. The mind vanishing, the Self shines forth. In the realised man the mind may be active or inactive, the Self alone remains for him. For the mind, the body and the world are not separate from the Self. They rise from and sink into the Self. They do not remain apart from the Self. Can they be different from the Self? Only be aware of the Self. Why worry about these shadows? How do they affect the Self?



Dear i, therefore, all our attention and focus ought not to be made towards controlling the mind, but instead, turn it within, seeking the source of that which has emerged and which puts forth these questions, how to control mind, etc...

The mind can never be controlled, to control the mind would be like controlling the traffic in the chaotic roads, never really possible, even if we do control, it would  only be temporary, but, the best direct way, is as what is revealed by Bhagavan. A little effort is necessary, attention, constant awareness of the truth, is what is required.

Let the thoughts that come out, wander and move about as vapor, what matters? Let these thoughts move about like traffic, vehicles, in the road before us, being disinterested in those movements, Never Minding it all, looking within, the source of the 'i' thought and thereafter, looking ever further within the source of the first 'i' thought is the way as revealed by Bhagavan.

The goals is never to control the mind, however, one can use preliminaries like Pranayama if the mind is very turbulent, in Ramana Gita Bhagavan says, Inhalation, Exhalation, Retention in the ratio of 1:1:4 helps, or carefully observing the breath rhythm also helps to quieten the mind, so that you can enquire the source.

The goal is always to abide as Self. The more we abide as Self, that long the mind is peaceful - that means, mind itself, at its absolute peace is itself Self. There is nothing like mind apart from Self. Forgefulness of Self is only Mind. Therefore, remember, constant awareness, abidance as Self itself, is annihilation of Mind.

Salutations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 17, 2012, 11:20:17 AM
I agree. But just bear in mind that not all people are the same. Some of them have very bad "constructed" mind. So controlling it is very important! Even more - for sadhaka controlling the mind very often is of extreme importance. Imagine that your mind is prone to make you live this way - to drink alcohol, to waste your money for drugs, to have sex with whoever you get, you eat almost meat and so on. I cannot agree that this is OK and this person just must watch his thoughts and say "that's just thoughts, I will watch them but I will do whatever I am inclined to". So not controlling the mind is just another extremity and my observation is that extremities almost never are good for people.

I understand and agree what you say, Sri Nagarajji but you say this from your point of you. I suppose that you live a moderate lifestyle but I think you will agree that there are many people who live destructive life and I am sure you can give many examples from people around you.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 17, 2012, 11:21:55 AM
Quote
Mind is like small kids - a big attention seeker. Does lot of things to seek your attention. If you give attention, it becomes cranky more and more and shows off more to seek more attention. If you dont pay attention when it becomes cranky, it does it once, twice, thrice and then it stops - as there is none to encourage it.

Yes, dear sanjaya. Mind is like a kid. But there are good kind and there are bad kids. The bad kids need "reeducation". Don't you agree?
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: sanjaya_ganesh on May 17, 2012, 11:49:39 AM
Quote
Yes, dear sanjaya. Mind is like a kid. But there are good kind and there are bad kids. The bad kids need "reeducation". Don't you agree?

One can provide an environment for that kid to grow up right, provide right education, but we cannot learn for the kid - it has to learn itself. If all goes well, then chances are crankiness is less :) - but even then there may many occassions when we have to ignore. It will cry hoarse, make all kinds of noises and employ all techniques - just sit quiet - as if you dont hear any of those. Exactly like how one deals with kids. It will stop eventually. As long as the "kid stays with you" - you have to do it.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 17, 2012, 11:58:04 AM
Quote
One can provide an environment for that kid to grow up right, provide right education, but we cannot learn for the kid - it has to learn itself. If all goes well, then chances are crankiness is less :) - but even then there may many occassions when we have to ignore. It will cry hoarse, make all kinds of noises and employ all techniques - just sit quiet - as if you dont hear any of those. Exactly like how one deals with kids. It will stop eventually. As long as the "kid stays with you" - you have to do it.

The methods for "reeducation" are countless. Each mind is different. There is no universalism in anything. As Bhagavan Sri Ramakrishna has said:
Quote

Knowing that all paths lead to the same Truth, we should not despise other Deities, but maintain an attitude of respect towards other religions. The Lord has provided different forms of worship to suit different men with different capacities and with different stages of spiritual development. As God has many aspects, so God is described according to the particular aspect in which He appears to his particular worshipper.

So it is the same with the mind. We cannot say "do this and you will get that". There is no such thing in spirituality and in anything. So we cannot say "we must change environment" or "change this or that". That's why Guru is of crucial importance. He is Who know the mind of His children and know what is best for every of them.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 17, 2012, 12:17:10 PM
Dear i,

any knowledge is just a general light, as revealed and experienced by each one. one has to be prudent enough to improvise according to ones own situation, as it may be, exercise wisdom accordingly.

For ultimately, Wisdom lays within, what is external is only a pointer to ones within.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 17, 2012, 01:03:29 PM
Dear i,

i would like to share with you, one important discernment, WRT your query about drunkards and other who are addicted with certain things, that, such knowledge would not be useful for them etc. i am just observing, in you, a great feeling for others, and you generally speak for everybody when you engage here in contemplative exchanges with everyone. But, such a feeling of thinking for others is actually distraction for ones own sadhana. Let me further bring more clarity here -

You have observed very rightly as follows -

I agree. But just bear in mind that not all people are the same. Some of them have very bad "constructed" mind. So controlling it is very important! Even more - for sadhaka controlling the mind very often is of extreme importance. Imagine that your mind is prone to make you live this way - to drink alcohol, to waste your money for drugs, to have sex with whoever you get, you eat almost meat and so on. I cannot agree that this is OK and this person just must watch his thoughts and say "that's just thoughts, I will watch them but I will do whatever I am inclined to". So not controlling the mind is just another extremity and my observation is that extremities almost never are good for people.

I understand and agree what you say, Sri Nagarajji but you say this from your point of you. I suppose that you live a moderate lifestyle but I think you will agree that there are many people who live destructive life and I am sure you can give many examples from people around you.

Here, i would share with you this following talks with Bhagavan:

Talk 124.

Another impatient questioner elaborated long premises and finished asking why some children die a premature death. He required the answer not to satisfy the grown-up ones who look on, but the babies who are the victims.
M.: Let the victims ask. Why do you ask and desire the answer from the standpoint of the child?



So, therefore, Dear i, its good, if we focus on ourselves, and as and when such a person comes with his set of problems Bhagavan would give such a person, the requisite instruction suiting his own situation, as that may properly suit him.

Its is wise therefore, each one talk for oneself alone, and not about others, for we are here for our own self, for our own spiritual upliftment, and we all would never shy to help others that may present before us.

:) i hope you got what i an trying to convey. this was not intended for a debate, just to bring across, yet another, discernment, which all may distract us in our sadhana, in very subtle ways, which we may no get to notice usually. Instead of doing Self Enquiry, we may tend to do Self Enquiry for others, which is distraction ultimately.

The mind, if it does not do Self Enquiry, Bhagavan says, would begin to do "ulaga Vichara" world vichara, what may be good for others etc...

Bhagavan says Your own self-realization is the greatest service you can render the world

:) hope you see in right light what i am trying to subtly point out.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 17, 2012, 01:53:50 PM
Dear all,

Sri Bhagavan gives many definitions for the Mind:

1. He says it is a wondrous power in Atma Swarupam!  So the Mind is also part of Atma Swarupam.

2. He says Mind  is only thoughts. See Versed 18 of Upadesa Undiyar. So control of thoughts is only control of mind.
For this He says again in Who am I?: Instead of multifarious thoughts, try to hold on to one thought so that the other
thoughts would be warded off. Japa is only for this purpose.

3. There is no such thing as mind when sought. See Verse 17 of Upadesa Undiyar. When you search for the mind and seek
after it, the so called mind quells in the Self, its birth place. In the Verse, the word 'usAva' means searching, seek after.

Arunachala Siva.   
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 17, 2012, 02:20:03 PM
Quote
So, therefore, Dear i, its good, if we focus on ourselves, and as and when such a person comes with his set of problems Bhagavan would give such a person, the requisite instruction suiting his own situation, as that may properly suit him.

Its is wise therefore, each one talk for oneself alone, and not about others, for we are here for our own self, for our own spiritual upliftment, and we all would never shy to help others that may present before us.

:) i hope you got what i an trying to convey. this was not intended for a debate, just to bring across, yet another, discernment, which all may distract us in our sadhana, in very subtle ways, which we may no get to notice usually. Instead of doing Self Enquiry, we may tend to do Self Enquiry for others, which is distraction ultimately.

The mind, if it does not do Self Enquiry, Bhagavan says, would begin to do "ulaga Vichara" world vichara, what may be good for others etc...

Bhagavan says Your own self-realization is the greatest service you can render the world

:) hope you see in right light what i am trying to subtly point out.

Yes, dear Nagaraj. I completely understand what are you trying to convey. But it is difficult for me to ignore people. I cannot ignore their suffering and self-destruction. But OK, let for a moment ignore the "other people". Let examine ourselves. We too have habit and qualities who are hindrance to our sadhana. So controlling of the mind is not necessity only for drunkards or gluttons. We need control the mind in many situations. Mind control is very necessary to have a normal life to everyone, not only to spiritual seekers. Don't you agree?
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 17, 2012, 02:23:06 PM
Quote
1. He says it is a wondrous power in Atma Swarupam!  So the Mind is also part of Atma Swarupam.

2. He says Mind  is only thoughts. See Versed 18 of Upadesa Undiyar. So control of thoughts is only control of mind.
For this He says again in Who am I?: Instead of multifarious thoughts, try to hold on to one thought so that the other
thoughts would be warded off. Japa is only for this purpose.

3. There is no such thing as mind when sought. See Verse 17 of Upadesa Undiyar. When you search for the mind and seek
after it, the so called mind quells in the Self, its birth place. In the Verse, the word 'usAva' means searching, seek after
.

Yes. He also has said that mind is the source of the body, body of the senses, senses of the world. I don't remember Bhagavan didn't said that control of the mind is not necessary. Yes, He recommended to find out the source of the mind but He never has discouraged its control.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 17, 2012, 03:11:01 PM
Dear ramana,

Sri Bhagavan said that the Mind is the condensed body. And the body is the expanded Mind.  That is why, when you dream,
(where only the mind works and not the body), that you are chased by a tiger, then you find on immediate waking up sweat on
the body out of fear.

Sri Bhagavan said two words about mind in Who am I?  mana adakkam = quelling the mind. mano nasam = extinguishing the
mind. Normally mana adakkam is control of thoughts. If this were to be achieved, half the road is covered. Mano nasam takes
place when if the attention towards the Self is complete where the mind goes back to its source and not to jump out again.

mana adakkam paves the way for mano nasam.

Muruganar in Guru Vachaka Kovai  mentions both suddha manas (pure mind) and dead mind (mind that has been killed).

Arunachala Siva.     
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 17, 2012, 03:20:39 PM
Dear i,

yes, one has to exercise restraint, but, i would like to bring to light a paradigm shift here, one has to strive constantly to repose as Self, strive to restraint the emergence of the 'i' thought, then and there, and, not giving into or losing oneself here.

As one constantly strives to restrain oneself to self, that is the true understand of YogaschittaVritti Nirodhah of Patanjali Yoga Sutras, as well.

As Bhagavan says in Who am I, when other thoughts arise we should being back our attention to the 'i' thought. All the time ones' attention should unwaveringly be directed to the feeling of 'i' or the 'i' thought. If attention wavers to other thoughts, even if it be anything, one should draw it back to the 'i' by remembering that these are only 'my thoughts'

Hence true purport of restraint is only this - attention would return to the fundamental enquiry 'Who am i' and remain only fixedely on the 'i' in order to discover its nature. And this process has to be repeated as often as attention moves away from the center, which is 'i'

When Restraint, Control is thus, made by striving to repose in Self, is alone the true discernment of Bhagavan's direct way. But the same restrain, control in order to stop some habit is not going to be of much help, really, one has to go to the roots of all vasananas, pre dispositions in the above manner as revealed by Bhagavan.

Restraint, control has to result in reposing within, and not other wise.

Salutations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 17, 2012, 03:37:53 PM
The mind, my friends, is very strange topic for me. I have heard almost anything about it.

1. It is your best friend
2. It is your enemy
3. It is the world
4. It is Saguna Brahman
5. It is unreal
6. It is Shakti
7. It must be killed
8. It must be perfected
9. We must use it to help to all creatures we can
10. We must do everything possible to destroy it
11. We must train it to serve God
12. We must leave it to do what it is going to do and just to watch its actions

and so on

Actually what we can say about mind? What is the truth about mind? I think that all our life will be not enough to discover all its mystery.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 17, 2012, 05:33:59 PM
Dear i,

what you have heard is all fine :) But who are you? that alone is important, why mind the mind? like Bhagavan asks? Who are you which has observed the following? are you different from the Mind? or is Mind different from you?

Until you realise your true nature, knowing all else is futile. Who am I - this alone is the only agenda, if one is inclined to Bhagavan's way of teaching. All else is only digression.

It is not important to know the mind as much as knowing Thyself. If the knower is not known, who is to know what mind is? who is the knower? what is to be know follows only after this!

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 17, 2012, 05:46:10 PM
Dear Nagaraj,

I think we must not divide Gurus. What Bhagavan Ramana teaches is the same what Bhagavan Ramakrishna does, am I right? And the followers of Bhagavan are different. He Himself has said that not everyone is ready for this direct method which He called Atma-vichara. He has prescribed many methods for the different people who have came to Him. Atma-vichara is just most unique part of His teaching which has became something like a Symbol of Lord Ramana. Our purpose is to find the Reality and to realize what is our place in It. That is the teaching of all Great Masters.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 17, 2012, 05:50:13 PM
Dear i,

i have not meant division of Gurus in my post, when i said if you are inclined towards Bhagavan's teaching, it is meant as inclination towards Vichara Marga. Division occurs only with regard to the forms.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 17, 2012, 06:01:29 PM
Dear Nagaraj,

that's what I mean. What is Bhagavan teaching? It is to realize the Goal of what all India's scriptures teach. And this is the purpose of all genuine Gurus. Bhagavan is not different. It is just our inclination to His Personality that make Him special for us. All Gurus are One Guru is He is within known as the Self, God, Brahman. That's one of the teachings of Bhagavan Ramana that has left deep traces in my mind and my heart, to not divide anything.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 17, 2012, 06:10:01 PM
Dear i,

Pardon me, but you are too stuck with intricacies, with a little too much judgement, that truth should not be like this like that, differences of Gurus, it is all very well known, but you fail to look at the main issue, and contemplate on the real issue, rather you are stuck with paraphernalia, but, in all these, you fail to look within.

with this, i feel, we cannot have a meaningful dialogue or discussion. if we have to say each time specifically that this teaching is not Bhagavan's teaching, teaching is eternal, belongs to no one guru, all teachings of Gurus are one and the same, then, it is plain digression.

we have passed two posts meaninglessly, with unnecessary dialogues which is really needless. the jnana is there within everybody not to divide things, but to take it to such extremes is a stepping stone.

Do you want to pass away 4 5 posts for me to just agree saying 'yes, we should not divide anything' i am at total loss to figure out myself, what have i divided in my post :) or, we all may have to put a disclaimer at the signature below each post, that we do not mean to divide gurus and teachings, etc... don't you thinks its such a digression from the real issue?

anyway, best wishes!

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 17, 2012, 06:28:45 PM
Subramanian,

Quote
"Sri Bhagavan said that the Mind is the condensed body. And the body is the expanded Mind"

Where did Bhagavan say this?What is meant by this?

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 17, 2012, 06:30:37 PM
Dear Nagaraj,

no, it is not digression. We talk about mind and what we must to do with it. You say that we must find out its source. OK, agree. But meanwhile we must not do anything? Must not try to make him more and more convergent than divergent? To change it in the manner which is not suitable to our spiritual sadhana? To just say "find out the source, find out the source" is not very practical. Can you just keep finding without doing nothing other? I am not trying to lead a meaningless conversation. What's the point? I was just trying to open a topic which to deal with the mind and what's the best way to look at it with well well-founded opinions and quotes. I am not here to lose my time or to argue just because I like it. I thought that after so many months in this forum you know at least this about me.

P.S. I don't judge anyone about anything. But if it is so then it's pity for me.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 17, 2012, 06:41:54 PM
Dear Ramana1359,
           :)

Nice post. Please follow the discussion below and see how the whole thing falls in place...
Mind : in sanskrit , is called "antahkarana", inner instrument. it has four functions: Buddhi, Manas, Cittam, Ahamkarah. There is just one inner instrument, with four functions. When the mind takes the form of sankalpa-vikalpas / thinking about a thing & doubting etc thats "Manas" - mind. When the same antahkarana takes the form of decisions that is "Buddhi/intellect". When it takes the form of "Memory or remembering" its chittam and when it appears in the form of "Aham karta, i am the doer" ... its ahamkara.

So I start from home to airport ... and on the way I get a doubt. "Did I lock my house ?" that is mind, manas.
So this keeps on bothering me ... and then i go home, see if it is locked ... and now i know "its locked" ... Buddhi, Intellect.

Do we see this much ?

Now, this whole thing is instrument ... inner instrument. What ever we have fed into it come out. When the doubt "Did I lock my house? " arises, my buddhi decides what to do . The Buddhi may itself become "wavering" or it may say "Chup! Keep still. You locked".  So Buddhi can function in both ways. Do we see that ?
When Buddhi is not able to decide, it means mind has taken over the Buddhi.
And when Buddhi is decisive, clear and still ... it means Buddhi has taken over mind.

So control of mind means ... who controls mind? The Buddhi controls manas. Thats very important.
Someone is studying something and the manas/mind says "Lets stop studying, this is boring". And at this stage "Buddhi" has to take over and say "Shut up! We decided to study, so study now!"

We put an alarm to wake up at 5 am, then the mind says "Ah, Lets sleep for some more time" and thats when Buddhi has to come into picture and say "Did we not decide to wake up at this time ? " and enforce its law upon the mind. This is when we say Mind is under control. This is important, very much so.

But then a more important question arises. If Mind keeps saying something and i have to decide against it constantly, is that not a tussle ? A constant effort ? Anytime the buddhi is relaxed, the mind will take over!! so what to do now ? The answer is ... purification of mind . Though mind jumps, it is always under the "Control" of Buddhi. Ultimately Buddhi is the decider. Manas simply prompts. So Buddhi has to be purified so that the mind will not be able to "Control it". When Buddhi is purified, the manas no more has a control over it, there may still be suggestions, but none of them have the power.

There are two kinds of impurities of mind: mala & vikshepa. mala is mental impurities like raga-dveshas. And vikshepa is tendency to jump here and there. When both these are eventually nullified, the mind remains "Stay Put, where it IS", thats called Mano-nashanam.

Mind has to be brought into control, and it has to be totally vanquished... if i sit here, the mind should remain "Absolutely Still... Here"!! it should not keep jumping about [thats absence of vikshepa]
and then tehre should not be any push and pull towards anyone [no mala]
and thus, one remains Free, effortlessly. thats Mano-nashanam.

My first post after returning and its really become long :)
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 17, 2012, 06:46:12 PM
no, it is not digression. We talk about mind and what we must to do with it. You say that we must find out its source. OK, agree. But meanwhile we must not do anything? Must not try to make him more and more convergent than divergent? To change it in the manner which is not suitable to our spiritual sadhana? To just say "find out the source, find out the source" is not very practical. Can you just keep finding without doing nothing other? I am not trying to lead a meaningless conversation. What's the point? I was just trying to open a topic which to deal with the mind and what's the best way to look at it with well well-founded opinions and quotes. I am not here to lose my time or to argue just because I like it. I thought that after so many months in this forum you know at least this about me.

P.S. I don't judge anyone about anything. But if it is so then it's pity for me.

I differ fundamentally, the way i see is like this - it is we who have to become convergent not the Guru. We have to bend our knees and surrender to Him, not make Him convergent to us. Practicality is not a reason to avoid finding the source, we cant bend the truth for our convenience rather we ought to bend and reach his Lotus feet.

Dear i, i have not hard feelings, yes, there are some hot words exchanged between us, still my friend, we hold hands.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 17, 2012, 06:48:41 PM
Dear Ravi,

Talks No. 328:

Devotee: The mind is said to be from the brain.

Maharshi: Where is the brain? It is in the body. I say that BODY ITSELF IS A PROJECTION OF THE MIND. You speak of the
brain, when you think of the body. It is the mind which creates the body, the brain in it and also ascertains that the brain
is its seat.

Talks No. 396:

Maharshi: Where or how were you before being born? Were you in deep sleep? How were you? You exist then to without
the body. Then the ego arises, and then the mind which projects the body. ......... THE BODY IS A MENTAL PROJECTION. THE MIND
IS THE EGO. AND THE EGO RISES FROM THE SELF. ........

There could be many more places where Sri Bhagavan had given this idea/truth.
I am not readily able to track them. Perhaps in Maharshi's Gospel.
 
Arunachala Siva.         
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 17, 2012, 06:54:53 PM
Swapna skalitham - semen discharge, happens when the mind dreams of some sexual things. The result is transferred to the body.

Arunachala Siva. 
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 17, 2012, 07:24:09 PM
Dear i,

Pardon me, but you are too stuck with intricacies, with a little too much judgement, that truth should not be like this like that, differences of Gurus, it is all very well known, but you fail to look at the main issue, and contemplate on the real issue, rather you are stuck with paraphernalia, but, in all these, you fail to look within.

with this, i feel, we cannot have a meaningful dialogue or discussion. if we have to say each time specifically that this teaching is not Bhagavan's teaching, teaching is eternal, belongs to no one guru, all teachings of Gurus are one and the same, then, it is plain digression.

we have passed two posts meaninglessly, with unnecessary dialogues which is really needless. the jnana is there within everybody not to divide things, but to take it to such extremes is a stepping stone.

Do you want to pass away 4 5 posts for me to just agree saying 'yes, we should not divide anything' i am at total loss to figure out myself, what have i divided in my post :) or, we all may have to put a disclaimer at the signature below each post, that we do not mean to divide gurus and teachings, etc... don't you thinks its such a digression from the real issue?

anyway, best wishes!

Prostrations to Bhagavan

Dear i,

my apologies for being harsh. it was needless on my part. that was not the right way to put across my views, and i regret it, i could have been sweeter, better!

cheers.

prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 17, 2012, 07:50:25 PM
You marked very important thing about mind, Sri Udai! The mind is just a word with many meanings in philosophy of India. For Yoga and Hinduism mind is composed of Buddhi, Ahamkara and so on. For Buddhist mind is everything - thoughts, intuitions, memory, personality and so on. So yes, what you say is very, very important. It is Buddhi which is the center of mind control! That's why Sages always say "Be awaike!", that's what Buddhi means! So what you say is very fundamental - Manas controls Buddhi or Buddhi controls manas!
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 17, 2012, 08:02:35 PM
Quote
Dear i,

my apologies for being harsh. it was needless on my part. that was not the right way to put across my views, and i regret it, i could have been sweeter, better!

cheers.

Don't worry, Sri Nagaraj. All is forgotten. I just wanna clear up this statement of yours:

Quote
I differ fundamentally, the way i see is like this - it is we who have to become convergent not the Guru. We have to bend our knees and surrender to Him, not make Him convergent to us. Practicality is not a reason to avoid finding the source, we cant bend the truth for our convenience rather we ought to bend and reach his Lotus feet.

This is not what I say. I just meant exactly this but what I had in mind is even more. We must to unite things (converge), not to divide them (diverge). We must not divide Gurus and teachers - that's what religious people do and we are witness of the consequences. We must do and realize what Sri Ramakrishna did - all paths lead to one Goal and all Sages point to the same truth expressed in different way. So my point was that Sri Ramana is not different from Sri Ramakrishna despite of the fact the one teach more jnana way and the other more bhakti. They both accept both. Even you always try to unite religions or just it was my impression. So where is the problem of my statement? Your path is Self-Inquiry. That's OK. But this is not the only way. So to say you must find out means not to follow Self-Inquiry but to find out your Self in your own way.

Best wishes, ramana1359
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 17, 2012, 08:20:57 PM
Dear i,

but, differentiation occurs only when there is difference. when there is no difference already, what to unite really? Bhakti and Jnana are one and the same, such being, what is to see sameness, which is one and the same? When there is only One, what is the need to assert sameness to what?

i am not seeing difference at all, only if we see ramakrihna and ramana as seperate, does one need to see them as one, when already they are one? what need is there to assert their sameness? or what we need to do is break a biscuit into 2 and then we could say it is the same biscuit.

Bhakti is not different from jnana is not different from Yoga. they all culminate the same place. i have talked in the past, how even the one who sings Bhajan does the same enquiry in deeply immersed in it, when the one who does japa, does enquiry when deeply immersed in it, when the one who does yoga, does the same enquiry when deeply immersed in it. Similalry, when one who reads bible or shlokas, and deeply immerses himself into it and tries to assimilate the essence and meaning of what is truly conveyed, it is self enquiry.

i am also trying to convey, there is already no difference. what is required is abidance alone. That is more important. i am trying to say, there is no difference already to say, that they are all same, it is one whole biscuit, only we break it into halves to just to see the sameness as whole!

Why to see as your path, my path? what difference is there in your path and my path? it is the same goal that is there is your path and my path? what is there to differentiate here? when we just say as path, without YOU and MY then it is pure

There is no difference. this is discerned, i am putting focus on what now? now, it is abidance, that is the goal. this alone is important.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 17, 2012, 08:28:34 PM
Dear Rai,

You also asked in your question, what does Sri Bhagavan mean by it?

Sri Bhagavan said that mind transfers some of its feelings to the body. I have given two examples, being afraid of a
pouncing tiger on you in the dream and the body  is seen sweating. Another is semen discharge during a dream.

In common parlance we say "this problem is a pain in my neck". Some difficult problems about which one may be thinking
results in pain in the neck. Problem is in the mind. But neck gets the pain. How?   We sometimes get bored about a lecture
in the class. The mind transfers the boredom into yawning which is a body response. There is vaccum in mind, nothing to do, nothing to achieve, they call it kAshaya stithi. In this kAshaya  stithi only, many people commit suicide. When the teacher scolds the boy for poor marks, (mind you, the teacher does not beat him), in presence of many other students, the student feels unlimited remorse and self pity,. The student commits suicide that night in the hostel room. The computer does not work due to modem problem for hours. My mind only
gets vexed but there comes head ache. 

These are all some examples of mind transferring the reactions to the body, in the form of pain, yawning and suicide attempts and
head ache.   

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 17, 2012, 08:35:43 PM
Dear Ravi,

The body is expanded mind:

After hours of strike the modem functions properly and I start operating the machine. The head ache vanishes.

There is a long queue in Big Temple of Tiruvannamalai. My legs ache with queue moving inch by inch. The knee pain starts.
When I reach the sanctum and have darshan of my Cute Little Father, Arunachaleswara, the legs pain vanish, the knee pain
disappears,  because the mind is at peace and happiness.

The lady in labor pain cries and cries. When the baby is born, she looks at the baby, a male child (after two female children).
By just seeing the male baby she is happy and peaceful and the labor pain is forgotten or it vanishes.
 
Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 17, 2012, 08:37:35 PM
Subramanian,
I have questioned your statement on what Sri Bhagavan said.Please review it.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 17, 2012, 09:23:12 PM
Quote
Dear i,

but, differentiation occurs only when there is difference. when there is no difference already, what to unite really? Bhakti and Jnana are one and the same, such being, what is to see sameness, which is one and the same? When there is only One, what is the need to assert sameness to what?

i am not seeing difference at all, only if we see ramakrihna and ramana as seperate, does one need to see them as one, when already they are one? what need is there to assert their sameness? or what we need to do is break a biscuit into 2 and then we could say it is the same biscuit.

Bhakti is not different from jnana is not different from Yoga. they all culminate the same place. i have talked in the past, how even the one who sings Bhajan does the same enquiry in deeply immersed in it, when the one who does japa, does enquiry when deeply immersed in it, when the one who does yoga, does the same enquiry when deeply immersed in it. Similalry, when one who reads bible or shlokas, and deeply immerses himself into it and tries to assimilate the essence and meaning of what is truly conveyed, it is self enquiry.

i am also trying to convey, there is already no difference. what is required is abidance alone. That is more important. i am trying to say, there is no difference already to say, that they are all same, it is one whole biscuit, only we break it into halves to just to see the sameness as whole!

Why to see as your path, my path? what difference is there in your path and my path? it is the same goal that is there is your path and my path? what is there to differentiate here? when we just say as path, without YOU and MY then it is pure

There is no difference. this is discerned, i am putting focus on what now? now, it is abidance, that is the goal. this alone is important.

Dear, Nagaraj

the Mind always sees difference. When It stops It is called the Self. The Self and the Mind are not different, yes. The Self is Shiva, the Mind is His Shakti. So when we talk about Mind we cannot to not talk about different paths, methods and so on. But we must always bear in mind that this is just an illusion. Svami Shivananda has said that World is Brahman in motion and the World static is Brahman. The only obstacle is the realization of this truth. Until this realization there will be always difference. But we must always bear in mind that this difference is superficial. Actually there are no Gurus but One Guru. There is only One God and our Buddhi as Sri Udai has mentioned must always be aware of this truth no matter we have not realize it.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 17, 2012, 09:33:05 PM
Friends,
This is how Ramana started this thread:
"The mind is everything. The mind is ours. Then why we say that we cannot change anything? If part of man's karma is to prick his little finger and mind is so powerful then why this man cannot change this little thing like pricking his little finger? Is really the mind so helpless?"

This is the fundamental question that Ramana has asked .

This is what Sri Ramakrishna says:
Bondage and liberation are of the mind
"It is all a question of the mind. Bondage and liberation are of the mind alone. The mind
will take the colour you dye it with. It is like white clothes just returned from the laundry. If
you dip them in red dye, they will be red. If you dip them in blue or green, they will be blue
or green. They will take only the colour you dip them in, whatever it may be. Haven't you
noticed that, if you read a little English, you at once begin to utter English words: Foot fut
it mit? Then you put on boots and whistle a tune, and so on. It all goes together. Or, if a
scholar studies Sanskrit, he will at once rattle off Sanskrit verses. If you are in bad
company, then you will talk and think like your companions. On the other hand, when you
are in the company of devotees, you will think and talk only of God.
"The mind is everything. A man has his wife on one side and his daughter on the other. He
shows his affection to them in different ways. But his mind is one and the same.
"Bondage is of the mind, and freedom is also of the mind. A man is free if he constantly
thinks: 'I am a free soul. How can I be bound, whether I live in the world or in the forest? I
am a child of God, the King of Kings. Who can bind me?' If bitten by a snake, a man may
get rid of its venom by saying emphatically, 'There is no poison in me.' In the same way, by
repeating with grit and determination, 'I am not bound, I am free', one really becomes so; one
really becomes free."

If we go through the responses in this thread,we can see how the responses are colored by what one has read or associated with.

Ramana is trying to point out the wonder that the mind is-it is only when we realize this that we can at all come to terms with it.Not by dismissing it as trite or a nonentity,not through cliche, but only through appreciation and understanding the limitless nature of the mind can the mind become our friend.Then,as Sri Ramakrishna says:The Pure Mind is the same as the Pure Atman.

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 17, 2012, 10:09:40 PM
there is always this shade of difference when one sees as Visishtadvaita and adviata. not all that is expressed can be dismissed off as mere theory or just reading. All that is said perfectly logical will always get categorised as Visishtadvaita, it is logically provable, and this is absolutely experiential and can be shared, but what one expresses as that nonduality is only anubhuti or self experiential alone, which cannot be shared.

If this alone be the standard, then what ever one may say is sure to be only bookish readings. which is why i have said in several posts, that each one communicates only with oneself alone.

என்னுடைய திட்டியிலெ யானன்றி நியில்லை
நின்னுடைய திட்டியிலெ நியன்றி யானில்லை
தன்னுடைய திட்டியிலெ தானன்றி மற்றில்லை
எண்ணுங்கா லவ்வனைத்தும் யான்
(1245)

Ennnnnnuttaiya Tittttiyile Yaannnannnrri Niyillai
Ninnnnnnuttaiya Tittttiyile Niyannnrri Yaannnillai
Tannnnnnuttaiya Tittttiyile Daannnannnrri Marrrrillai
Ennnnungkaa Lavvannnaittum Yaannn

In my [non-dual] outlook [in which I alone exist as the
reality], you do not exist but only I; in your [non-dual]
outlook [when you realize that you alone exist as the
reality], I do not exist but only you; in one’s own
[non-dual] outlook [when one has realized the truth],
others do not exist but only oneself. When [the truth
is thus] known, all of them [I, you, oneself and others]
are [nothing but] ‘I’ [the Self].

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 17, 2012, 10:24:47 PM
Dear i,

those of you who are members here for some time, and following for long time may remember, my postings as follows  in various relevant topics -



When you just posted your response. I read your post. What ever you have conveyed in your post, it is my own post (but it is your post) and, my response to this post is my own response to my own post (but it is your post).

When you now read my post as a response, it is your own response (but my response) to your own question, and, if you have any response to it, it is your response to your own post (but it is my post)

do you get it? If you are able to get a grasp of this, then many questions drop off by themselves.

Upanishads say Self is everywhere. when you read this, you are here and you are reading this, and you understand it. and if there is a question in this post, its your own question which is already there in you. and if you are responding to that question, its your own answer to your own question.

I am You. You am I



i had never before read the Guru Vachaka Kovai verse before until a couple of days back, which was a pleasant surprise to me as this is what i have felt so, since some time, that only i am, and the other is also myself, i ask friends, if this is my experiential how can i share it with you? for it is found in book, and if i say so, it becomes a book reading, the other can never know my anubhuti and so do i, can never know the 'others' anubhuti.

In this regard, let me also quote Bhagavan's words, as follows:

“My” implies the “I”, which owns the senses. You take your existence for granted; at the same time ask others to prove it to you. Similarly you admit the certainty of your senses, which see others, whilst denying all certainty. You see how you contradict yourself. The fact is that there are no others: there is no such a person as “you”. Each man, although addressed as “you”, styles himself as “I”. Even the confirmation you demand from others comes only from the “I”. “You” and “they” occur only to the “I”, without which they are meaningless.

Therefore, when it comes to nondual expressions, it stands alone, cannot be proved or does it even demand to be proved for only oneself alone is, what does that one got to prove to whom? :D its funny!

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 17, 2012, 10:51:38 PM
Quote
This is what Sri Ramakrishna says:
Bondage and liberation are of the mind
"It is all a question of the mind. Bondage and liberation are of the mind alone. The mind
will take the colour you dye it with. It is like white clothes just returned from the laundry. If
you dip them in red dye, they will be red. If you dip them in blue or green, they will be blue
or green. They will take only the colour you dip them in, whatever it may be. Haven't you
noticed that, if you read a little English, you at once begin to utter English words: Foot fut
it mit? Then you put on boots and whistle a tune, and so on. It all goes together. Or, if a
scholar studies Sanskrit, he will at once rattle off Sanskrit verses. If you are in bad
company, then you will talk and think like your companions. On the other hand, when you
are in the company of devotees, you will think and talk only of God.
"The mind is everything. A man has his wife on one side and his daughter on the other. He
shows his affection to them in different ways. But his mind is one and the same.
"Bondage is of the mind, and freedom is also of the mind. A man is free if he constantly
thinks: 'I am a free soul. How can I be bound, whether I live in the world or in the forest? I
am a child of God, the King of Kings. Who can bind me?' If bitten by a snake, a man may
get rid of its venom by saying emphatically, 'There is no poison in me.' In the same way, by
repeating with grit and determination, 'I am not bound, I am free', one really becomes so; one
really becomes free."

Thank you, Sri Ravi for this beautiful explanation from Sri Ramakrishna!
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 17, 2012, 11:02:34 PM
Yes, Sri Nagaraj. This contradiction exists and will exist until what we believe and what we are "become" tha same. Yes, it is funny. We are not the first people who has realized that the world is just a play. This is part of the mystery of the mind. But I must give attention about some mistake which many so called non-dualists do. They say all is my Self but when they say that they actually mean (experiencially) "my self (ego)". This is very wrong. There is philosophy call solipsism which teaches exactly this. We must be aware of this grave mistake. I mark this because I have noticed that many "advaitins" are actually solipsists, deluded people who think the the world is their (e.g. belong to the ego) and they can do and say whatever they want because everything is their (patent), like - there is no harm, everything is mine and is actually unreal. Advaita is dangerous path for spiritually immature souls. I don't address this to you but for caution of all people who visit this Forum.

Best wishes, ramana1359
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 18, 2012, 06:22:43 AM
Ramana/Friends,
I agree with Ramana.Many of the 'I ALONE AM' bhavana  borders on solipsism.The True Advaitic Siddhi or anubhuti is where there is no sense of 'I' and none to describe it.The True acid test is here,as in the story of Sri Ramakrishna:
Towards the end of his life on Earth,when Sri Ramakrishna was suffering from throat cancer and could hardly take even liquid food,Pundit Shashadhar one day suggested to the Master that the latter could remove the illness by concentrating his mind on the throat, the scriptures having declared that yogis had power
to cure themselves in that way
. The Master rebuked the pundit. "For a scholar like you to make such a proposal!" he said. "How can I withdraw the mind from the Lotus Feet of God and turn it to this worthless cage of flesh and blood?" "For our sake at least", begged Narendra and the other disciples. "But", replied Sri Ramakrishna, "do you think I enjoy this suffering? I wish to recover, but that depends on the Mother."
NARENDRA: "Then please pray to Her. She must listen to you."
MASTER: "But I cannot pray for my body."
NARENDRA: "You must do it, for our sake at least."
MASTER: "Very well, I shall try."
A few hours later the Master said to Narendra: "I said to Her: 'Mother, I cannot swallow food because of my pain. Make it possible for me to eat a little.' She pointed you all out to me and said: 'What? You are eating enough through all these mouths. Isn't that so?' I was
ashamed and could not utter another word."
This dashed all the hopes of the devotees for the Master's recovery.

Elsewhere in The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna,we find this:
Master could not ask God to cure him
MASTER: "I cannot ask God to cure my disease. The attitude of the servant-master
relationship is nowadays less strong in me.
Once in a while, I say, 'O Mother, please mend the sheath of the sword a little.' But such
prayers are also becoming less frequent. Nowadays I do not find my 'I'; I see that it is God
alone who resides in this sheath
."
The goswami had been invited to sing kirtan. A devotee asked, "Will there be any kirtan?"
Sri Ramakrishna was ill, and all were afraid that the kirtan might throw his mind into
ecstasy and thus aggravate the illness.
Sri Ramakrishna said: "Let there be a little singing. All are afraid of my going into ecstasy.
Spiritual emotion hurts the throat."
The goswami began the kirtan. Sri Ramakrishna could not control himself.
He stood up and began to dance with the devotees. The physician watched the whole scene.
A hired carriage was waiting for Dr. Rakhal. He and M. were ready to leave for Calcutta.
They saluted the Master. Sri Ramakrishna said to M. affectionately, "Have you had your
meal?"
Thursday, September 24, 1885
It was the night of the full moon. Sri Ramakrishna was sitting on the small couch. He was
very ill. M. and some other devotees were sitting on the floor.
MASTER (to M.): "Every now and then I think that the body is a mere pillow-case. The
only real substance is the Indivisible Satchidananda.
"When I go into divine ecstasy this illness of the throat remains away from me. I am now
somewhat in that mood and so I feel like laughing.
"

If we can say definitely that we are eating through so many mouths and see it as a fact-If our life is based on this firm realization that the Self is utterly different than the Body,then and then only we may be sure.Otherwise it is all at best ,just wishful thinking only.
The 'Soham' Bhavana may be used as a sadhana but one cannot bring it into use for discussion and communication in the workaday world.That would lead to confusion .
The Adage-'While in Rome,do as Romans do' is applicable to the workaday world.
Namaskar.

Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 18, 2012, 08:55:07 AM
dear i,

i agree with your concerns, both of yours, and the border line and so on.

But, even here, i just discern that the following. you can never talk for another absolutely, no matter what you may talk for the other, it is you very own. For instance, when Shri Ravi conveyed what you really meant in your original post, can never really convey what you have really conveyed, what ever he meant to convey ultimately is his very own, and never can be ramana's. Similarly when we say, 'Many of the 'I alone am' bhavana borders solipsism is limited to ones own experience alone and never others. I am just trying to bring light that what ever we say, is limited to our own light of knowledge and we can never really speak for any other, it is error to brand some other as some solipsism which is actually ourselves, so therefore, when we refer it as solipsism, we are only addressing to ourselves alone, one is talking about only oneself, one is referring to ones own self, one own Bhavana as solipsism! what ever we say, we are only saying about our own experiences alone and never the other. And when we use examples of Bhagavan Ramana or Ramakrishnar, about their advaitic expressions, it is only our very own, and not really theirs.

As Sri Ravi says, Soham bhavana cannot be  bought in to communication at all, simply noot possible, as who to communicate to whom? which is why i say repeatedly each comunnicate with oneself, and,  not to any other. i am here for just myself alone, for my own gratification alone, and not here to uplift anybody or share knowledge with anybody, i always talk/respond to myself alone.

But just one thing i want to say is that, one should not fear confusion and avoid discussions, one should face confusions, everybody has to face contradictions and cross the ocean of this sky and see the clarity. This is said by Sri V Ganesan and Brahmasri Nochur as well.

i discern, yet again, that one can only talk for oneself, and can never talk for 'the other' really. What ever we talk of others, world, many, etc. is only ourselves, and not really them!

God is there to care for the others who may find so called Advaita dangerous, not us.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 18, 2012, 09:14:45 AM
Nagaraj,
Yes,everyone sees through the prism of the mind and all that one sees is colored by the mind.This is what Sri Ramakrishna has said.It is also true that when the mind is silent it is free to listen to what the other person is saying- then the mind then can take on that color and in this way know what the 'other' person has expressed,even if it is not fully  done.
coming to ''Many of the 'I alone am' bhavana borders solipsism is limited to one's own experience alone and never others-This is not an isolated observation,but is something that has been the warning from Great Masters,especially Sri Ramakrishna.I will post later on instances.
One of the fundamental foundation in sadhana is to harmonize thought,word and action.If there is a disconnect,there is a danger.The Great one's actions are eloquent and demonstrate this harmony.The least word or act of such a one carries its own conviction.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 18, 2012, 10:29:26 AM
Dear Ravi,

I do not understand what your question is. Please elaborate.

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 18, 2012, 11:27:07 AM
:) Raviji is not posting a question, I think. All he is saying is "I Alone AM" should be one's Anubhavam and not hearsay, If i am right.

:) its true that thoughts, words and action have to be harmonized. Its also true that Saint's words and actions have a conviction that goes with it. More important is also the fact that the disciple should be "Ready and Listening" without that there have been people who met Ramana himself and returned saying he does not know anything or he does not speak anything !
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 18, 2012, 04:39:03 PM
Quote
dear i,

i agree with your concerns, both of yours, and the border line and so on.

But, even here, i just discern that the following. you can never talk for another absolutely, no matter what you may talk for the other, it is you very own. For instance, when Shri Ravi conveyed what you really meant in your original post, can never really convey what you have really conveyed, what ever he meant to convey ultimately is his very own, and never can be ramana's. Similarly when we say, 'Many of the 'I alone am' bhavana borders solipsism is limited to ones own experience alone and never others. I am just trying to bring light that what ever we say, is limited to our own light of knowledge and we can never really speak for any other, it is error to brand some other as some solipsism which is actually ourselves, so therefore, when we refer it as solipsism, we are only addressing to ourselves alone, one is talking about only oneself, one is referring to ones own self, one own Bhavana as solipsism! what ever we say, we are only saying about our own experiences alone and never the other. And when we use examples of Bhagavan Ramana or Ramakrishnar, about their advaitic expressions, it is only our very own, and not really theirs.

As Sri Ravi says, Soham bhavana cannot be  bought in to communication at all, simply noot possible, as who to communicate to whom? which is why i say repeatedly each comunnicate with oneself, and,  not to any other. i am here for just myself alone, for my own gratification alone, and not here to uplift anybody or share knowledge with anybody, i always talk/respond to myself alone.

But just one thing i want to say is that, one should not fear confusion and avoid discussions, one should face confusions, everybody has to face contradictions and cross the ocean of this sky and see the clarity. This is said by Sri V Ganesan and Brahmasri Nochur as well.

i discern, yet again, that one can only talk for oneself, and can never talk for 'the other' really. What ever we talk of others, world, many, etc. is only ourselves, and not really them!

God is there to care for the others who may find so called Advaita dangerous, not us.

Prostrations to Bhagavan

Here is the problem, dear Sri Nagaraj... How many mind are out there? Is there a mind exept your own? This where the confusion comes from. That's why I opened this thread, because the mind is very very peculiar matter. All so called mind of the different people are one mind! You call it yours but is it? You say that you are here for your own pleasure. There is nothing wrong with that but is that the only reason you are here? Is helping others part of that pleasure or you are here just to win debatic "combats"? Are you here to sow whatever you have learned or just to feed your ego by winning debates? I ask you these question not to attack you. I have asked them myself and everyone of you must do that. Are we here for dissolve or to feed our ego? "We are here for knowledge and wisdom" is not a good answer. Dear Nagaraj, in one of your previous replies you say that I am judgmental at times. I am not doing that to judge but to slap your ego. I do it to myself every day. So don't take it so personally.

To sum up my opinion about your comment about mind. There is only One Mind. If this Mind decides that there are many minds, then there are many minds. If It decides that this Mind is yours then It is yours. If you decide that you don't know the "other" minds but only your this again is the truth. The liberation is when This Mind says with absolute confidence "I am the Self, attributeless Sat-chit-ananda" and there is nothing other" and empty Itself from all thoughts.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: sanjaya_ganesh on May 18, 2012, 05:20:50 PM
:) Interesting discussion to read. Interesting to see analysis of mind using mind and intellect :)

Thanks
Sanjay
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 18, 2012, 05:27:25 PM
:) Both these are true:
a. There is only one mind.
b. We write to ourselves.

And moreover ... I believe this Truth can also be written down :) ... otherwise no one would read Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna / Gospel of Ramana. When they read , they "Get a Glimpse of their own self" and thats why they read. Why else?
So written communication is also possible.

True, though written the communication does not reach all. But thats so with any book :)
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 18, 2012, 06:07:22 PM
Quote
:) Both these are true:
a. There is only one mind.
b. We write to ourselves.

And moreover ... I believe this Truth can also be written down :) ... otherwise no one would read Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna / Gospel of Ramana. When they read , they "Get a Glimpse of their own self" and thats why they read. Why else?
So written communication is also possible.

True, though written the communication does not reach all. But thats so with any book :)

Yes, Sri Udai. I totally share you opinion. The Truth can be written down and this is necessary. People who say that Holy Books are needless are not right in my view. The point is however that to understand, to live this Truth you must taste It, to be It. Let suppose that you have never has tasted sugar. I can give you many explanation about what sweet taste is. But to understand me you must to taste the sugar and then may be you will agree with what I said. In the beginning you may not believe me about sweetness but when you feel it you will know for sure that I am right. Of course I express this truth in my own way, with my own words. You then can express it in another way but we both are describing what sweetness is, we are talking about the same thing. The Mind is That creates differences. Agree?
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 18, 2012, 06:13:22 PM
:) There is absolutely no one who has not tasted Self
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 18, 2012, 06:19:56 PM
Quote
:) There is absolutely no one who has not tasted Self

I say yes because:
- taste means duality. It means that the Mind has experienced Bliss and everyone at least once in his/her life has experienced It.

I say no because:
- the Self cannot be tasted because It is nondual. It is the taster. And at the same time It is not.

I am sure you really feel what I mean. :)
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 18, 2012, 06:24:34 PM
Dear ramana,

Holy Books of ancient Rishis and Sages are not written with mind as an instrument. These were written either by their experience,
or by inspiration with the help of the Self within. A rishi or a sage who had videha kaivalyam (death immediately after realization)
can not possibly write these things. Only the rishis and sages who have attained Jivan mukti state (that is liberation even while
embodied,)can alone write these scriptures.  Sri Bhagavan used to say that it is like a thief being stung by a scorpion, while in the
house where he was going to thieve. The thief can neither cry not refrain from crying. Still he cries and such cry only has come out
as scriptures, stotras and sastras.

Regarding that one should before hand read holy books is not happening in all cases of rishis and sages. Some of them by a single
experience of selfhood by them, have experienced the Self. Book knowledge was not warranted in their cases. All their reading
came about for the sake of others and all their writing came about  for the sake of others. Sri Bhagavan did not read anything
before hand. But the Truth and its various facets came to Him from out of His experience and this was taken as their holy books.
Saint Tiru Jnana Sambandhar realized the Self at the age of 3. What books he might have read at that age?  So in such cases,
the inspired writings came from within by the Self's instructions and they were only acting as pens to write them for the benefit of
others.

Of course such cases are rare. The rest of us, like us, should read  minimum books and then stop with that. There is no point in
accessing many websites and reading materials there unlimitedly. Such reading will make one a Pandit who knows various
things but he can never experience the Reality.       

I read nowadays only Sri Bhagavan's books, His devotees' experiences and articles from Mountain Path, which throw newer
insights into Sri Bhagavan's teachings. I read Saivite literature since Saivism is very close to Advaita. I never strain myself
reading various things that are available in various websites. These will only add to your load on the brain but never confer
experiential Reality.

To taste sugar's sweetness, only one sugarcane would do. No need to try various sweetish delicacies and fruits.
 
Arunachala Siva.   
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 18, 2012, 06:24:59 PM
Self is not experienced as an object, its the "Being" which is not an "object".
So whenever we say "Experience of Self" its inherent in and through all experiences.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 18, 2012, 06:29:28 PM
All these back and forth posts on mind which describes half truths only prove that our minds can do any amount of maya-
mischiefs with us.

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 18, 2012, 06:30:55 PM
Quote
To taste sugar's sweetness, only one sugarcane would do. No need to try various sweetish delicacies and fruits.

Of course, Sri Subramanian. I just wanted to say that the Truth can be described by different ways but everyone must choose this description to which he or she is prone to.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 18, 2012, 06:32:20 PM
:) Long before one stops reading books, stop other worldliness.
whats the point in stoping reading spiritual books but continuing
all the other materialistic activities?
is reading spiritual books worse than materialistic activities ?
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 18, 2012, 06:38:29 PM
Quote
Self is not experienced as an object, its the "Being" which is not an "object".
So whenever we say "Experience of Self" its inherent in and through all experiences.

Dear Sri Udai. You have reminded me about a geat Hinduistic text that I read recently. It is very short. It is named Ganesha Stotram. Very short but very powerful text. I don't know its author. It is stated in it as follows:
Quote

We offer our worship to the Lord Ganesha, Who is Unborn, Absolute and Formless; Who is beyond joy, and Bliss Itself.....the One and the Infinite; Who is the Supreme without attributes, differentiation and desire; and Who is verily the Supreme Brahman.

Lord (the Self) is even beyond such descriptions and "experiences" as Joy, Bliss, etc. So what you say Sri Udai is very important and very rarely mentioned!
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 18, 2012, 06:40:21 PM
The wordly actiivities will have also to stop along with excessive book reading. But after realization, one can do any worldly activity
since he is firmly embedded in the Self. Janaka ruled a kingdom. Kaduveli Siddhar and Tondaridipodi Azhwar led a married life.
Sri Sankara attended to the work of establishing four Maths.  He debated with  84 other faiths and proved their inadequacy.
Tiru Jnana Sambandha debated with Jains to prove their faith to be futile.  Manikkavachagar even spent the king's money
to build a Siva temple. Uddhava went as a messenger to gopikas to tell them the Truth, that Krishna was not a kala rupam,
a man of 6 feet but the Atma within.     

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 18, 2012, 06:44:04 PM
Dear Subramanian,
       :) One thorn is used to remove another.
Shastra sravanam / study is a sadhana in sadhana panchakam. one stops sadhana when its use is done.
when the other torn of worldliness in our mind is removed, one stops shastra study also. or one may continue shastra study as you mentioned that a realized person may involve in any work thats dharmic.

so shastra sravanam etc need not be stopped. one need not be in a great hurry to stop that!
Let the worldliness stop totally first.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 18, 2012, 06:45:54 PM
Dear Ramana,
      I never said Udai or Sri udai is important.
Self is beyond all descriptions and yet if someone says "Summa Iru" to a well prepared mind, the mind just gets dissolved. "Summa iru" is a description ... its not Self and yet when mind is prepared, it serves to take the person one step beyond.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 18, 2012, 06:52:14 PM
Quote
Dear Ramana,
      I never said Udai or Sri udai is important.
Self is beyond all descriptions and yet if someone says "Summa Iru" to a well prepared mind, the mind just gets dissolved. "Summa iru" is a description ... its not Self and yet when mind is prepared, it serves to take the person one step beyond.

(http://forum.audiogames.net/extensions/pun_karma/icons/thumbs_up.gif)
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 18, 2012, 07:31:14 PM
Dear srkudai,

sravanam cannot go ad infinitum. Because there are further steps like mananam and nididhyasanam, till up to Samadhi.

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 18, 2012, 07:43:48 PM
Dear Subramanian,
          :) Thats very true.
But when ? This is well explained in BG shankara bhasyam. Here I am posting a section of it.
What you are talking about is Nivruthi margam. If you read BG, Sri Krishna says "Lokesmin dvivida nista", there are two life styles : karma or pravrutti and jnana which is nivrutti.
when through karma yoga the mind is totally purified, thats when one may chose nivrutti.
We do not have two options: karma/jnana life styles. there is only one lifestyle available for us, jnana is only for people who have reached a stage where no more karma is needed for purification.
to put it clearly: its like two options go for Msc or go for Phd. The person who has already done Msc does Phd. And the person who has not done Msc has to do Msc. One whose mind is purified already goes for nivritti marga. Thats for a person who has no need for Karma to purify.
Rest all have to do sravanam-mananam-nidhidhyasam together until they reach a stage where no more karma is needed for purification.

Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 18, 2012, 07:50:52 PM
In this Forum which speaks about  Sri Ramana Bhagavan and also His devotees, nivritti marga methods alone should be taken into
account. No doubt Sri Bhagavan approved Bhakti by saying Bhakti is Jnana Matha, He did not mention in detail about karma. He
only said along with Jnana vicharam, one can do karma without Jana vicharam being affected. (Talks).  If one feels sravana should
be constantly done along with manana etc., then he cannot successfully progress in jnana vicharam.
 
Arunachala Siva.     
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 18, 2012, 07:55:33 PM
Dear Subramanian,
        :) Karma yoga or pravritti marga includes Devotion, Sharanagati as practise, listening to Ramana or reading Ramana literature, Meditations and mind purifications !

Nivrutti marga person does not need this forum. this forum is also a karma he or she is involving in.
Nivritti is applicable only for a person whose mind is totally freed of raga-dveshas. the person takes sanyas and remains established in Self, with minimal work, not involving in any kind of activities.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 18, 2012, 08:04:00 PM
As such , most often, even people who have taken up nivritti marga still read scriptures as nidhidhyasam. Reading scriptures itself is nidhidhyasam.

:) Why are we against study of scriptures which is one of the sadhanas in sadhana panchakam , while we readily accept prayer or nama japa as accepted means which too are sadhanas ??
Nityam study of scriptures is as much a sadhana as nama japa. mind stills down and one remains established while studying! and as its based on knowledge its not artificial stilling of mind.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 18, 2012, 08:19:26 PM
To exactly specify what nivritti marga is ... plz read Annamalai Swami's life.
There came a stage where Ramana told Annamalai swami to leave the ashram and live in seclusion and not meet him also. That was nivritti.
until then, all his stay with Ramana was involving activities of some or the other kind and thats all pravritti.
i am not sure if annamalai swami continued to listen to some books or not.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 18, 2012, 08:36:40 PM
Dear srkudai,

Sri Bhagavan says in Talks No. 249:

Some say that one should never cease to engage in hearing, reflection and one pointedness. These are not fulfilled by
by reading books, but only by continued practice to keep the mind withdrawn.
Sravana removes the illusion of the Self being one with the body etc., Reflection makes it clear that Knowledge is the Self.
One pointedness reveals the Self as being Infinite and Blissful.

Sri Bhagavan says in Talks No. 562:

A practiser may, by long practice, gain a glimpse of the Reality. This experience may be vivid for some time being. And yet he
will be distracted by the old vasanas and so his experience will not avail him. Such a man must continue his manana and nididysasana
so that all the obstacles may be destroyed. He will then be able to remain permanently in the Real State/

Talks No. 647:

Sravana - Knowledge dawns. That is the flame.
Manana - the Knowledge is not allowed to vanish. Just as the flame is protected by a windscreen, so the other thoughts are not
allowed to overwhelm the right Knowledge.
Nididyasana - The flame is kept up to burn brightly by trimming the wick. Whenever other thoughts arise, the mind is turned
inward, to the light of true Knowledge.
Samadhi - when this becomes natural it is Samadhi.

The Atma Vicharam, Who am I? is the sravana. The ascertainment of the true import of 'I' is the manana. The practical application on
each occason is nididyasana. Being as 'I', abiding is Samadhi.

Talks No. 57:

Sravana is only paroksha jnana. By manana it becomes aparoksha spasmodically. The obstruction to its continuity is the vasanas.
They rise up with reinforced vigor after manana. They must be held in check with vigilance. Such vigilance is remembering I am not the
body, and adhering to the aparoksha anubhava which has been had in course of manana. Such practice is called nididhyasana. When
vasanas are eradicated the Sahaja state dawns.  That is Jnana, for sure.

Dukkha nivritti comes only when vasanas are eradicated by nididyasana.


Arunachala Siva.         
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 18, 2012, 08:53:34 PM
Dear Subramanian,
      :) What Bhagavan Ramana says here is not objected.
I agree that:
a) One should withdraw from everything and revel in Self alone.
b) vasanas as obstructions to aparoksha jnana is also not objected.

The contention is about "When one should leave sravanam". Sravana-Manana-Nidhidhyasam happen hand in hand for all of us. We do it in cycles. When i sit down with Ashtavakra Gita or perhaps hear to some saint speaking abt it ... its Sravana + Manana + Nidhidhyasana. After that i may sit in mediation.

if after reading Ramana's book ... u sit down for meditation and "Feel" deeper meditation that means u need reading.

BTW when u say scripture reading is not required u include reading Ramana's works is also not required right? which means presence in this forum is again not required!! :)
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 18, 2012, 09:03:21 PM
Dear all,

this discussion about mind is like this - While the God Almighty is standing before us, like thousand suns, and, we are still only looking at a picture of his in paper and trying to understand the picture.

Instead of knowing the mind, what is required is to trace back to the source, where from 'i' emerged, this alone is wisdom.

There is no mind, your mind, my mind, or other mind, what is for sure, is the fact of 'i' am, who is raising so any questions and views, who am i? excepting this, i do not see anything else of any importance.

in a piece of paper, we are so engrossed in the words itself, that we forget the paper itself. One needs to put attention on only that befits attention.

Thus i conclude myself in this topic.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 18, 2012, 10:22:42 PM
Friends,
An excerpt from The Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam:

"Myself when young did eagerly frequent
Doctor and Saint, and heard great Argument
About it and about; but evermore
Came out by the same Door as in I wen
t.

With them the Seed of Wisdom did I sow,
And with my own hand labour'd it to grow:
And this was all the Harvest that I reap'd--
"I came like Water and like Wind I go."

Into this Universe, and Why not knowing,
Nor Whence, like Water willy-nilly flowing:
And out of it, as Wind along the Waste,
I know not Whither, willy-nilly blowing.

What, without asking, hither hurried whence?
And, without asking whither hurried hence!
Another and another Cup to drown
The Memory of this Impertinence!

Up from Earth's Centre through the Seventh Gate
I rose, and on the Throne of Saturn sate,
And many Knots unravel'd by the Road;
But not the Knot of Human Death and Fate.

There was the Door to which I found no Key:
There was the Veil through which I could not see:
Some little Talk awhile of Me and Thee
There seemed--and then no more of Thee and Me.


Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 19, 2012, 04:54:54 AM
Dear all,

concerning about different kind of Yoga I think that it is very difficult to make distinction between them. Yes, every time it is said that these kind of Yogas are appeared because the different type of minds. But if you look closer their borders merge. Can there be Karma Yoga without Bhakti Yoga? The karma yogin gives all his actions to the Lord or the Self. Bhakti yogins do the same. Jnanis always surrender all their thoughts, emotions and life to the Self or Brahman. Isn't doing Self-inquiry actually different kind of surrender? Different Yogas are actually descriptions of the different ascpects of the One Yoga and every yogin practices all the "yogas" no matter if he realizes that or not.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 19, 2012, 05:03:09 AM
Quote
Dear all,

this discussion about mind is like this - While the God Almighty is standing before us, like thousand suns, and, we are still only looking at a picture of his in paper and trying to understand the picture.

Instead of knowing the mind, what is required is to trace back to the source, where from 'i' emerged, this alone is wisdom.

There is no mind, your mind, my mind, or other mind, what is for sure, is the fact of 'i' am, who is raising so any questions and views, who am i? excepting this, i do not see anything else of any importance.

in a piece of paper, we are so engrossed in the words itself, that we forget the paper itself. One needs to put attention on only that befits attention.

Thus i conclude myself in this topic.

Prostrations to Bhagavan

Sri Nagaraj, this discussion is like all other discussions which we do here. All we do here is discussing the Mind, no matter what is the name of the topic. We all accept the Truth you present (e.g. we must find the source of the "I" and so on) but even this is by the Mind. So trying to unveil some of the characteristics of the Mind is not useless at all. Actually Self-inquiry is method of the Mind searching Itself and finding It is nowhere.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 19, 2012, 07:34:07 AM
Ramana/Friends,
Yes indeed.This is what Swami Vivekananda says:
1. Each soul is potentially divine. The goal is to manifest this divinity within, by controlling nature, external and internal. Do this either by work, or worship, or psychic control, or philosophy-by one, or more, or all of these-and be free, This is the whole of religion. Doctrines, or dogmas, or rituals, or books, or temples, or forms, are but secondary details.
2. The ultimate goal of all mankind, the aim and end of all religions, is but one-re-union with God, or, what amounts to the same, with the divinity which is every man's true nature. But while the aim is one, the method of attaining may vary with the different temperaments of men. Both the goal and the methods employed for reaching it are called Yoga, a word derived from the same Sanskrit root as the English "yoke", meaning "to join", to Join us to our reality, God. There are various such Yogas, or methods of union-but the chief ones are Karma- Yoga, Bhakti-Yoga, Raja-Yoga, and Jnana-Yoga.
3. As every science has its methods, so has every religion. The methods of attaining the end of religion are called Yoga by us, and the different forms of Yoga that we teach, are adapted to the different natures and temperaments of men. We classify them in the following way, under four heads: Karma-Yoga-The manner in which a man realises his own divinity through works and duty. Bhakti-Yoga--The realisation of the divinity through devotion to, and love of, a Personal God. Raja-Yoga-The realisation of the divinity through the control of mind, Jnana-Yoga-The realisation of a man's own divinity through knowledge. These are all different roads leading to the same centre-God.
4. Each one of our Yogas is fitted to make man perfect even without the help of the others, because they have all the same goal in view. The Yogas of work, of wisdom, and of devotion are all capable of serving as direct and independent means for the attainment of Moksha.
5. Non-attachment is the basis of all the Yogas. The man "who gives up living in houses, wearing fine clothes, and eating good food, and goes into the desert, may be a most attached person. His only possession, his own body, may become everything to him; and as he lives he will be simply struggling for the sake of his body.
6. Vairagya or renunciation is the turning point in all the various Yogas(Nivritti Marga.-Ravi). The Karmi worker renounces the fruits of his work. The Bhakta devotee renounces all little loves for the almighty and omnipresent love. The Yogi renounces his experience's, because his philosophy is that the whole Nature, although it is for the experience of the soul, at last brings him to know that he is not in Nature, but eternally separate from Nature. The jnani philosopher renounces everything, because his philosophy is that Nature never existed, neither in the past, nor present, nor will he in the future.
7. We claim that concentrating the powers of the mind is the only way to knowledge. In external science, concentration of mind is-putting it on something external; and in internal science, it is-drawing towards one's self. We call this concentration of mind.
Yoga. The Yogis claim a good deal. They claim that by concentration of the mind every truth in the universe becomes evident to the mind, both external and internal truth.
8. The Yogis claim that of all the energies that are in the human body the highest is what they call 'Ojas' Now this Ojas is stored up in the brain, and the more Ojas is in a man's head, the more powerful he is, the more intellectual, the more spiritually strong. One man may speak beautiful language and beautiful thought, but they do not impress people; another one speaks neither beautiful language nor beautiful thoughts, yet his words charm. Every movement of his is powerful. That is the power of Ojas.
9. All the forces that are working in the body in their highest become Ojas. You must remember that it is only a question of transformation, The same force which is working outside as electricity or magnetism, will become changed into inner force; the same forces that are working as muscular energy will be changed into Ojas. The Yogis say that that part of the human energy which is expressed as sex energy, in sexual thought, when checked and controlled, easily becomes changed into Ojas, and as the Muladhara guides these, the Yogi pays particular attention to that centre. He tries to take all this sexual energy and convert it into Ojas. It is only the chaste man or woman who can make the Ojas rise and store it in the brain; that is why chastity has always been considered the highest virtue. A man feels that if he is unchaste, spirituality goes away, he loses mental vigour and moral stamina. That is why in all the religious orders in the world which have produced spiritual giants you will always find absolute chastity insisted upon. That is why the monks came into existence, giving-up marriage. There must be perfect chastity in thought, word and deed; without it the practice of Raja-Yoga is dangerous, and may lead to insanity.
10. The utility of this science is to bring out the perfect man, and not let him wait and wait for ages, just a plaything in the hands of the physical world, like a log of drift-wood carried from wave to wave and tossing about in the ocean. This science wants you to be strong, to take the work in your own hand, instead of leaving it in the hands of Nature, and get beyond this little life. That is the great idea.
11. Anything that is secret and mysterious in these systems of Yoga should be at once rejected. The best guide in life is strength. In religion, as in all other matters, discard everything that weakens you, have nothing to do with it. Mystery-mongering weakens the human brain. It has well-nigh destroyed Yoga-one of the greatest of sciences.
12. He is indeed a Yogi who sees himself in the whole universe and the whole universe in himself.
13. This is no child's play, no fad to be tried one day and discarded the next. It is a life's work; and the end to be attained is well worth all that it can cost us to reach it, being nothing less than the realisation of our absolute oneness with the Divine.

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 19, 2012, 08:24:38 AM
:) When Arjuna said to Krishna "Ill leave this battle field , let me go and take Sanyas", sri krishna did not encourage that!! And he started explaining Vedanta! Arjina did not say "Hey! Why do u tell me all that, let me leave everything!" !

Friends, Leaving books is "Exactly like that". And the people who talk of leaving scriptures make two exceptions:
1. When it comes to worldly activities, they say "Like Janaka we continue"!!! Then like janaka why cant they continue to read ??

2. Ramana's life and works can be read!! Exception , right?

:)
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 19, 2012, 09:26:21 AM
uday,

" Ramana's life and works can be read!! Exception , right?"

A 'Ramana Devotee' will say -"Ramana's life and works can be read!! it is an Exception"!

A 'Sai Devotee' will say -"Reading Sai satcharita is an exception"!

A 'Ramakrishna Devotee' will say that -"Reading The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna is an exception"!

A 'Christian Devotee' will say that -"Reading the the Bible is an Exception'!

A devotee(without tags!) will say -"A no bhadrAH kratavo yantu vishvataH | (Rg Veda I-89-1)(Loosely translated as:Let auspicious thoughts come unto us from every direction).


I have found this streak in every asramam,temple or group that I have visited-This 'Staunch Devotee' who considers it as a sine quo non that he is a devotee only if he is 'excusively ' so.Others are just wading their way through the morass !The 'Excusive' nature is construed as 'Eka Nishta to the Ishta'!
Like our friend subramanian posted:"In this Forum which speaks about  Sri Ramana Bhagavan and also His devotees, nivritti marga methods alone should be taken into
account
. No doubt Sri Bhagavan approved Bhakti by saying Bhakti is Jnana Matha, He did not mention in detail about karma"

Eka nishta is not to be excusive but all inclusive-Like unifying all the different strands of fiber in a rope.As Sri Aurobindo says:the Sadhaka of the integral Yoga will not be satisfied until he has included all other names and forms of Deity in his own conception, seen his own Ishta Devata in all others, unified all Avatars in the unity of Him who descends in the Avatar, welded the truth in all teachings into the harmony of the Eternal Wisdom.
     Nor should he forget the aim of these external aids which is to awaken his soul to the Divine within him. Nothing has been finally accomplished if that has not been accomplished.
It is not sufficient to worship Krishna, Christ or Buddha without, if there is not the revealing and the formation of the Buddha, the Christ or Krishna in ourselves. And all other aids equally have no other purpose; each is a bridge between man's unconverted state and the revelation of the Divine within him.


I make it clear that I am not a 'Ramana devotee' or a 'Sai Devotee' or a 'Ramakrishna Devotee' etc
When I wrote to Graham here,I made this point quite clear exactly in these words and left it to him to choose to permit me as a member. :)

P.S:I agree with you that when we can take our breakfast,enjoy idli with chutney,why be fussy about not reading scriptures! :)

Namaskar.


Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 19, 2012, 10:37:35 AM

Sri Lakshmana Sarma (WHO) calls teachings of of Sri Bhagavan as Maha Yoga.  Sri Bhagavan Himself once told Lakshmana Sarma:
"The quest is Maha Yoga - the Great Yoga - and the reason is that, as shown  here, (in Lakshmana Sarma's book). all the Yogas are
included in the Quest and this is why it is called Maha Yoga.

Once some years after the publication of the book Maha Yoga, Sri Bhagavan came across a verse in the Kurma Purana (2.11.7) in
which Lord Siva declares, "That (yoga) in which one sees the Self (atman), which is Me, the one immaculate and eternal bliss, is
considered to be the Maha Yoga pertaining to the Supreme Lord." Since this verse thus confirmed His statement that Self enquiry,
the practice of attending to the Self is the Maha Yoga, Sri Bhagavan transcribed it in His own copy of Maha Yoga at the end of chapter 9.

The following are extracts  from a critically minded visitor, who once appeared in the Vedanta Kesari:

The Maharshi impressed me as a rare type of man. I do not know whether he is a Jnani or what he is. For as the Vedanta says, a Jnani
can be known only by a Jnani and I am certainly not one. But this person, anyone can feel, is not of the ordinary run  of men. We nowadays come across men everywhere whose one thought is world reform and things of that kind. But here is a man who is PERFECTLY AWARE, as one can see from his conduct and movements, who has no such idea, who has in his opinion nothing to add to the sum total
of human happiness. He simply seems to exist, without waiting for anything, without being anxious about anything. On watching him I was powerfully reminded of the Gita passage beginning with 'udasinavad...' (like the one that is unconcerned) (Gita 9.9 and Gita 1.23).

He seems to take, as far as I can see, no interest even in the Asramam that has sprung up around him. He simply sits there. thing are going as EVENTS AND OTHER MAN SHAPE THEM. .....

Another point that struck me is his Silence. We used to ask in fun among ourselves why eminent professors who crossed the seas did not deliver their Vedantic lectures through silence. But here is a person who actually does this as far as his teaching  of the Vedanta is concerned. When I asked him to tell me something of spirituality, the first thing he said was that silence is the highest teaching!  The beauty of the man is that he remains faithful to that idea to the utmost extent possible. His idea is that the ADVAITIN HAS NO POSITION
TO STATE, NO SIDDHANTA TO PROPOUND.

So mostly the Maharshi remains silent, and people come, make prostrations, sit before him  for hours and then go away, without exchanging even a single word!  I have my own doubts as to whether people benefit by this teaching through silence, but yet people
come from long distances to hear this dumb eloquence and go back SATISFIED.

Though he speaks but little, it is very instructive to watch his face and eyes. there is nothing very prepossessing about his personalty.
But there is a beam of intelligence and unrufulled calmness in his eyes that are unique. ... I am sufficiently satisfied that the absence of activity in him IS NOT DUE TO INERTNESS.

The third point that struck me was the absolute absence of vanity or self importance in him. ...And when he breaks that silence, as he does when questioned, he appears to be THE SWEETEST AND MOST FRIENDLY OF MEN.

.....

In seeing him, I do believe I have seen a unique personage.

(The author of this Vedanta Kesari article is Swami Tapasyananda.)                 

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 19, 2012, 12:00:47 PM
Fundamental Questions:

The Sage himself gives us the essence of the teaching of the saints. He tells us that to attribute name and form to the
Reality, thereby adding personality to It and making It into what we call God is quite proper and necessary as a means
of mental purification. But He also says that any name and any form may be so attributed - that it is narrowness to claim
that a particular form is alone holy. And He reconciles this devotion with the foregoing teaching about the Quest and the
Egoless State, by telling us that the goal of the devotee is the same as that of the seeker,

Even in devotion, a certain degree of egolessness is implicit and therefore as a general rule only men of pure mind and good
conduct are drawn to devotion. One's character is proportional to the degree of egolessness.

He that would find Truth must have eschewed wrong doing, subdued his passions and attained mental harmony.

Truth and goodness are essentially the same. The Gita also lays a great stress on his condition. The seeker must have
what it calls the 'godly endowment' in order to reach the goal. This includes fearlessness, clear thinking, meditativeness,
readiness to give, control of mind and body, reverence to whatever is holy, love of truth, straightforwardness, non injury,
forbearance, not telling tales, compassion, freedom from greed, gentleness, shrinking from wrong doing, not being         
capricious. All this is summed up as good character and a person is said to be having purity of mind, only when these
features are seen in him.

The fundamental question about mind is that mind is only thoughts and thoughts are nothing but sprouting of ego.
The egoless state is the sublime mental purity.

Again all the foregoing are the aroma of the Self that dwells in our hearts. Therefore they make for impersonality.
To them belong the persons, not they to the persons for Goodness is not a possession, it is the Possessor.

Ultimately devotion and vichara are one and the same.

Arunachala Siva.   
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 19, 2012, 12:01:11 PM
Raviji has said:
Quote
The Pure Mind is the same as the Pure Atman.

That's what Lord Ramana has said:

8. What is pure mind and what is impure mind?

When the indefinable power of Brahman separates itself from Brahman and, in union with the reflection of consciousness (chidabhasa) assumes various forms, it is called the impure mind. When it becomes free from the reflection of consciousness (abhasa), through discrimination, it is called the pure mind. Its state of union with the Brahman is its apprehension of Brahman. The energy which is accompanied by the reflection of consciousness is called the impure mind and its state of separation from Brahman is its non-apprehension of Brahman.


Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 19, 2012, 12:11:17 PM
Dear ramana,

This is what Sri Bhagavan describes in Verse 24 of Upadesa Undiyar:

In the nature of their being creature and creator
Are in substance one
They differ only
In adjuncts and awareness.

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 19, 2012, 12:14:30 PM
Sri Subramanian, I have a question for you....and for all others of course.

You say that Self-inquiry is the summum bonum of all spiritual practices. So I ask you: What was the core teaching of Lord Ramana? If you should describe it with one sentence what it would be? Most people who have only heard about Ramana will of course say "Self-inquiry". But you as deep knower of His teaching what would you say?
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 19, 2012, 12:21:53 PM
Dear ramana,

The core teaching is:

Summa Iru. Be silent and know that kingdom of god is within you.

Just because we are not able to remain summa, we are 'doing' all these things including writing posts in Forum.
'Doing' is not summa iruthal. 'Being' is summa iruthal.

I have seen people in Old Hall remaining in stone like posture for more than 2 hours.  In my case, I am still not able
to remain in that posture for more than 45 minutes. I feel like scratching my head, moving my back, back and forth,
shifting legs, seeing the watch, seeing others, seeing Sri Bhagavan's portrait.

I am not able to remain Summa for two hours. If I am able to do that, that is the finality.

Arunachala Siva.   

Arunachala Siva. 
 
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 19, 2012, 12:35:50 PM
Exactly! That's why He so often has repeated God's revelation through Saint David "Be still and know that I am God". This is Biblical way to say Summa iru. But what that means? Simply to be as you are, e.g. ego is vanished and your nature shines forth. You say that Self-inquiry is the most important spiritual practice which is above all others. Then I ask what is the use of Self-inquiry to a bhakta whose ego has been vanished by complete Surrender? When the ego is gone who is the one who to do Self-inquiry? In my opinion to say that one method is above others is not essentially correct. I think that Saranagathi is the most beneficial to people of the Kali Yuga. And this is it not because Self-inquiry is inferior but because mind condition of the people right now is more prone to bhakti marga. So to say that some sadhana in general is more or less than other without consideration of the time, people, culture and so on is not very correct also.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 19, 2012, 01:04:22 PM
Dear i,

Is Sharanagati (Surrender) different from Self Enquiry? There is no difference between them. Surrender does not happen by just saying, i surrender. It is again only jnana that results in Sharanagati. Who has to surrender? again, the answer is 'i' without first primarily knowing oneself, who can surrender? who am i? there is no difference in all these!

Bhagavan says, the entire vedanta can be summed up with the smallest English letter 'i' one may call it Bhakti, one may call it Surender, one may call it Self enquiry, one may call it what ever, it is all related to this 'i' alone. it is all the same!



And, Being still, does not necessarily mean to sit like a stone for hours together. Ulladu Naarpadu Anubandham 27 says, after realising this truth, play, in the world as you like.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 19, 2012, 01:13:42 PM
Dear ramana,

This Silence is the silence of the immortals;  Silence comprises three things:  kAyika mounam - silence of the body;
vang-mounam - silence of the mouth, i.e without speaking anything; and finally, sankalpa-rahita mounam - silence
without thoughts. If these three could be achieved it will be the pinnacle of attainment.

Once Mastan Swami came to Sri Bhagavan. Sri Bhagavan was sitting on the stone bench inside Virupaksha Cave.
Mastan came and folded his hands and then stood. He stood and stood and stood for seven hours, without urge
to take water, or to eat any thing or even to attend to nature's call or even to shift his legs. He stood motionless.
Sri Bhagavan was also sitting still like a stone statue for six hours, with a vacant gaze, without even batting His
eyelids.

In such glorious time of silence, the transmission of grace takes place.

Sri Bhagavan used to say: Grace is ever flowing. But you (i.e. the ego) do not come in the way!

****

Regarding Saranagati, it appears easier but it is equally difficult. One can attain total surrender only by submitting the ego.
One cannot keep even a bit of ego and say, that he has surrendered.  Total annihilation of ego denotes total self surrender.
Of course, this comes by practice, if one finds self inquiry difficult.

In Self inquiry, ego is killed first and foremost.

In self surrender, the ego's death takes place as final submission in the altar of the Self.

Arunachala Siva.         
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 19, 2012, 01:18:32 PM
Quote
Dear i,

Is Sharanagati (Surrender) different from Self Enquiry? There is no difference between them. Surrender does not happen by just saying, i surrender. It is again only jnana that results in Sharanagati. Who has to surrender? again, the answer is 'i' without first primarily knowing oneself, who can surrender? who am i? there is no difference in all these!

Bhagavan says, the entire vedanta can be summed up with the smallest English letter 'i' one may call it Bhakti, one may call it Surender, one may call it Self enquiry, one may call it what ever, it is all related to this 'i' alone. it is all the same!


And, Being still, does not necessarily mean to sit like a stone for hours together. Ulladu Naarpadu Anubandham 27 says, after realising this truth, play, in the world as you like.

Prostrations to Bhagavan

This is exactly what I am trying to say, Sri Nagaraj. You and people here are very open-minded and have very keen viveka but I have seen many Bhagavan's devotees who has made Self-inquiry as the "Christ-only salvation". Actually karma yoga, bhakti yoga, jnana yoga, raja yoga are the same. Truely I cannot see difference between them and have questioned myself "Where do people see the distinction between them? Distinctions appear when you have been caught in doctines, illusions and narrow-mindedness (e.g. extreme egocentrism).
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 19, 2012, 01:20:14 PM
Dear Nagaraj,

Ulladu Narpadu anubandam says - After realization, play in the world like a hero.  But even that, how?   

SEEMING TO HAVE ENTHUSIASM AND DELIGHT, SEEMING TO HAVE EXCITEMENT AND AVERSION, SEEMING TO TO EXERCISE
INITIATIVE AND PERSEVERANCE, AND YET WITHOUT ATTACHMENT, play O hero, in the world.

Released from all bonds of attachment, and with equanimity of mind, acting outwardly in all situations, in accordance
with the part you have assumed, play as you please, O hero, in the world. (This is from Yoga Vasishtam - originally)

TILL THAT REALIZATION ONE SHOULD SIT LIKE STONE ONLY AT LEAST DURING MEDITATION.

There is no other go.

Arunachala Siva.     
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 19, 2012, 01:22:17 PM
Dear ramana,

All Yogas merge into Maha Yoga. One Whole Yoga.  Which Sri Bhagavan taught.

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 19, 2012, 01:23:04 PM
Quote
Regarding Saranagati, it appears easier but it is equally difficult. One can attain total surrender only by submitting the ego.
One cannot keep even a bit of ego and say, that he has surrendered.  Total annihilation of ego denotes total self surrender.
Of course, this comes by practice, if one finds self inquiry difficult.

Oh, I don't say that it is easier! :) I just say that people now, in Kali Yuga, are more prone to Saranagathi and they start doing Self-inquiry just because it is said that it is easier way to Atma jnana, then I think that their "spiritual progress" will be less. Let everyone do whatever he/she is inclined to. This is best for this person.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 19, 2012, 01:25:20 PM
Quote
Dear ramana,

All Yogas merge into Maha Yoga. One Whole Yoga.  Which Sri Bhagavan taught.

Arunachala Siva.

Yes, yes. My point was that this Maha Yoga is not Self-inquiry, Self-surrender or whatever other method you mention. Maha Yoga means "Supreme Union", e.g. being one's own Self.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 19, 2012, 01:25:27 PM
Dear i,

it is not so, one need not sit like a stone until one attains "That" aren't you identifying with your body subtly here? does the body need to enquire or yoursef? and, moreover, what about those who are engrossed in particular stations of life, to one lady, who expressed that she is so bogged by duties that she does not get to sit fir meditation, Bhagavan said, give your body to the world and give your mind to me.

Even as one converses with anybody, enquiry goes on, even as one talks, works, moves, drives, what ever, enquiry goes on. If one is able to sit like that, well and good, if ones station provides that time, good, otherwise, what does one do? can one postpone till a future time, so that he plans to sit like a stone and discover the reality? it is not so. The true import ought to be discerned.

Prosrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 19, 2012, 01:29:13 PM
Quote
Dear i,

it is not so, one need not sit like a stone until one attains "That" aren't you identifying with your body subtly here? does the body need to enquire or yoursef? and, moreover, what about those who are engrossed in particular stations of life, to one lady, who expressed that she is so bogged by duties that she does not get to sit fir meditation, Bhagavan said, give your body to the world and give your mind to me.

Even as one converses with anybody, enquiry goes on, even as one talks, works, moves, drives, what ever, enquiry goes on. If one is able to sit like that, well and good, if ones station provides that time, good, otherwise, what does one do? can one postpone till a future time, so that he plans to sit like a stone and discover the reality? it is not so. The true import ought to be discerned.

Prosrations to Bhagavan

I agree to the dot! We cannot escape action if it is part of our path. So called motionless yogis are like that because this is part of their path!
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 19, 2012, 02:08:06 PM
Dear Nagaraj,

Sitting like stone is not an insentient posture. It is total silence without any movement of body, tongue and even sankalpas.
Sri Bhagavan asks us to do meditation like that only. Not 24 X 7. In the modern world, particularly for working men and women,
one cannot sit like that. But at least during hours or minutes of meditation, one can do that. You are talking about  subtle body
awareness.  There is no body awareness at all at such times.

Once some devotee asked Sri Bhagavan: Should I sit quiet when a mosquito bites me during meditation?

Sri Bhagavan replied: Just because you swat the mosquito, you will not go to hell. Just also because you do not
swat the mosquito, you will not go to heaven. The best meditation is that where you are not even aware of the
mosquito bite!

Arunachala Siva.     
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 19, 2012, 02:14:59 PM
Dear ramana,

Maha Yoga is not merely union with Mahat (Brahman). It is a complete whole yoga where all the four yogas merge.
It is the Whole Yoga. It is not integration of four yogas, in a deliberate attempt. No.  Like when a king goes on procession,
the horses, foot soldiers, commanders and ministers follow the king, when one does self inquiry or self surrender,
the other yogas follow automatically.

Again if you say, action is our path and sitting motionless is the path of Jnanis, then, the kings like Janaka who were full
of activity could not have become jnanis. They attained realization and then they become active in their royal life.
Like what is stated in Ulladu Narpadu anubandam verse which Nagaraj quoted today.

Arunachala Siva.   
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 19, 2012, 03:41:52 PM
Dear Nagaraj,

Sitting like stone is not an insentient posture. It is total silence without any movement of body, tongue and even sankalpas.
Sri Bhagavan asks us to do meditation like that only. Not 24 X 7. In the modern world, particularly for working men and women,
one cannot sit like that. But at least during hours or minutes of meditation, one can do that. You are talking about  subtle body
awareness.  There is no body awareness at all at such times.

Once some devotee asked Sri Bhagavan: Should I sit quiet when a mosquito bites me during meditation?

Sri Bhagavan replied: Just because you swat the mosquito, you will not go to hell. Just also because you do not
swat the mosquito, you will not go to heaven. The best meditation is that where you are not even aware of the
mosquito bite!

Arunachala Siva.     

Dear i,

this is what i intended to convey!

generally, even, when one sits to meditation, there are certain common distractions, when there is some itching sensation, or an urge to move the limbs a little bit, etc... any such subtle uges, one should not take it as impediment, and instead of sending plea to Bhagavn, such as "oh Bhagavan, how much body consciousness, i am suffering, i am unable to even sit motionless, etc, one may as well, satisfy the urges and settle down then and there and focus on the true meditation.

We must realise that we are unique, we do not need to imitate anybody else who may be adept in something. Yoga, is said to be skill in action, mindfulness, pure wisdom, pure nectar of discernment.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 19, 2012, 04:05:08 PM
Dear Nagaraj,

Yes. This clarification I agree to.

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 19, 2012, 04:09:44 PM
Friends,
An excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
A DEVOTEE: "Sir, a new sect, named, 'Nava Hullol', has been started. Lalit Chatterji is
one of the members."
MASTER: "There are different views. All these views are but so many paths to reach the
same goal. But everyone believes that his view alone is right, that his watch alone keeps
correct time.
"
GIRISH (to M.): "Do you remember what Pope says about it?
'Tis with our judgments as our watches, none
Go just alike, yet each believes his own."
MASTER (to M.): "What does it mean?"
M: "Every one thinks that his own watch keeps the correct time. But different watches do
not give the same time."
MASTER: "But however wrong the watches may be, the Sun never makes a mistake. One
should check one's watch with the sun
."

Every 'Staunch' follower is convinced that 'his guru' is supreme and the 'method' taught by him is ultimate!This gives a sense of identity and security. :)
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 19, 2012, 04:15:21 PM
Dear i,

:D nice excerpt from the gospel of Sri Ramakrishna

but, in a way, its required, it is good, so long, one has fears that He may deviate from his true path, holding on to His Guru is very essential indeed.

Like the birds, it remains with its chicks until, they learn to fly and is able to hunt food, and so on, once it is independent, they all go their ways.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 19, 2012, 04:43:57 PM
Nagaraj,
Yes.Here is another excerpt from the Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
God with and without form
MASTER: "Well, do you believe in God with form or without form?"
M., rather surprised, said to himself: "How can one believe in God without form when one
believes in God with form? And if one believes in God without form, how can one believe
that God has a form? Can these two contradictory ideas be true at the same time? Can a
white liquid like milk be black?"
M: "Sir, I like to think of God as formless."
MASTER: "Very good. It is enough to have faith in either aspect. You believe in God
without form; that is quite all right. But never for a moment think that this alone is true and
all else false
. Remember that God with form is just as true as God without form. But hold
fast to your own conviction
."
The assertion that both are equally true amazed M.; he had never learnt this from his books.
Thus his ego received a third blow; but since it was not yet completely crushed, he came
forward to argue with the Master a little more.
God and the clay image
M: "Sir, suppose one believes in God with form. Certainly He is not the clay image!"
MASTER (interrupting): "But why clay? It is an image of Spirit."
M. could not quite understand the significance of this "image of Spirit". "But, sir," he said
to the Master, "one should explain to those who worship the clay image that it is not God,
and that, while worshipping it, they should have God in view and not the clay image. One
should not worship clay."
God the only real teacher
MASTER (sharply): "That's the one hobby of you Calcutta people - giving lectures and
bringing others to the light! Nobody ever stops to consider how to get the light himself.
Who are you to teach others
?
"He who is the Lord of the Universe will teach everyone. He alone teaches us, who has
created this universe; who has made the sun and moon, men and beasts, and all other
beings; who has provided means for their sustenance; who has given children parents and
endowed them with love to bring them up. The Lord has done so many things - will He not
show people the way to worship Him? If they need teaching, then He will be the Teacher.
He is our Inner Guide.
"Suppose there is an error in worshipping the clay image; doesn't God know that through it
He alone is being invoked? He will he pleased with that very worship. Why should you get
a headache over it? You had better try for knowledge and devotion yourself
."
This time M. felt that his ego was completely crushed. He now said to himself: "Yes, he has
spoken the truth. What need is there for me to teach others? Have I known God? Do I really
love Him? 'I haven't room enough for myself in my bed, and I am inviting my friend to
share it with me!' I know nothing about God, yet I am trying to teach others. What a shame!
How foolish I am! This is not mathematics or history or literature, that one can teach it to
others. No, this is the deep mystery of God. What he says appeals to me."
This was M.'s first argument with the Master, and happily his last.
MASTER: "You were talking of worshipping the clay image. Even if the image is made of
clay, there is need for that sort of worship. God Himself has provided different forms of
worship. He who is the Lord of the Universe has arranged all these forms to suit different
men in different stages of knowledge
.
"The mother cooks different dishes to suit the stomachs of her different children. Suppose
she has five children. If there is a fish to cook, she prepares various dishes from it - pilau,
pickled fish, fried fish, and so on - to suit their different tastes and powers of digestion.
"Do you understand me
?"

We can clearly see how the Master aims to balance both the aspects-Keeping the mind open and yet standing firm on one's conviction.
He further emphasizes that if one is sincere and diligent,God himself will lead such a one to himself.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 19, 2012, 04:44:35 PM
Quote
Towards the end of his life on Earth,when Sri Ramakrishna was suffering from throat cancer and could hardly take even liquid food,Pundit Shashadhar one day suggested to the Master that the latter could remove the illness by concentrating his mind on the throat, the scriptures having declared that yogis had power
to cure themselves in that way. The Master rebuked the pundit. "For a scholar like you to make such a proposal!" he said. "How can I withdraw the mind from the Lotus Feet of God and turn it to this worthless cage of flesh and blood?" "For our sake at least", begged Narendra and the other disciples. "But", replied Sri Ramakrishna, "do you think I enjoy this suffering? I wish to recover, but that depends on the Mother."
NARENDRA: "Then please pray to Her. She must listen to you."
MASTER: "But I cannot pray for my body."
NARENDRA: "You must do it, for our sake at least."
MASTER: "Very well, I shall try."
A few hours later the Master said to Narendra: "I said to Her: 'Mother, I cannot swallow food because of my pain. Make it possible for me to eat a little.' She pointed you all out to me and said: 'What? You are eating enough through all these mouths. Isn't that so?' I was
ashamed and could not utter another word." This dashed all the hopes of the devotees for the Master's recovery.

Elsewhere in The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna,we find this:
Master could not ask God to cure him
MASTER: "I cannot ask God to cure my disease. The attitude of the servant-master
relationship is nowadays less strong in me.
Once in a while, I say, 'O Mother, please mend the sheath of the sword a little.' But such
prayers are also becoming less frequent. Nowadays I do not find my 'I'; I see that it is God
alone who resides in this sheath."
The goswami had been invited to sing kirtan. A devotee asked, "Will there be any kirtan?"
Sri Ramakrishna was ill, and all were afraid that the kirtan might throw his mind into
ecstasy and thus aggravate the illness.
Sri Ramakrishna said: "Let there be a little singing. All are afraid of my going into ecstasy.
Spiritual emotion hurts the throat."
The goswami began the kirtan. Sri Ramakrishna could not control himself.
He stood up and began to dance with the devotees. The physician watched the whole scene.
A hired carriage was waiting for Dr. Rakhal. He and M. were ready to leave for Calcutta.
They saluted the Master. Sri Ramakrishna said to M. affectionately, "Have you had your
meal?"
Thursday, September 24, 1885
It was the night of the full moon. Sri Ramakrishna was sitting on the small couch. He was
very ill. M. and some other devotees were sitting on the floor.
MASTER (to M.): "Every now and then I think that the body is a mere pillow-case. The
only real substance is the Indivisible Satchidananda.
"When I go into divine ecstasy this illness of the throat remains away from me. I am now
somewhat in that mood and so I feel like laughing."

Sri Ravi, while reading this I remembered an American musician and singer John Larking known as Scatman John. At the end of his life he was ill of lung cancer. Even thoug he supposed what will happen to him he has said: “Whatever God wants is fine by me… I’ve had the very best life. I have tasted beauty.” If a man says that only because he has a beautiful life what we can say about a Jnani Who has realized the Self.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 19, 2012, 05:36:36 PM
Subramanian/friends,
"Maha Yoga is not merely union with Mahat (Brahman). It is a complete whole yoga where all the four yogas merge.
It is the Whole Yoga. It is not integration of four yogas, in a deliberate attempt."

The word integral is used to mean 'poorna'-Whole;Integral comes from 'Integer' and is the opposite of 'Fractional'.Integral means that which is not pieced or stitched together ,but that which is 'Whole'.Integral Yoga means 'poorna yoga', thus means that which is complete and wholesome.
When we sit for a meal,the hands lift the morsel and flawlessly deposit it into the Mouth that opens just enough to get it in and the Teeth grind the food while the tongue tastes it and mixes it with saliva and the food is swallowed and proceeds to the stomach and gets digested there.All these happen in a coordinated manner and without any disconnect;Likewise all the faculties of ours are employed in an integral way for Sadhana and the spiritual food gets eaten and assimilated.

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 19, 2012, 05:42:23 PM

Dear Ravi,

In the sense that Integral Yoga is Poorna Yoga is a fine interpretation.

The outward looking mind creates names and forms.
The inward turned mind makes one realize the poornam.

This Poornam is final goal of bhakti, karma, yoga and jnana.

vibhakti nasam bhakti
viyoga nasam yogam
kartrutva nasam karmam
avidya nasam bodham

avidya is only the little I.

Arunachala Siva. 
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 19, 2012, 05:52:53 PM
Subramanian/Friends,
"The outward looking mind creates names and forms.The inward turned mind makes one realize the poornam."

The Integral Yoga of Sri Aurobindo breaks this seeming Divide between 'inward' and 'Outward'-and says -'All Life is Yoga'.
It proceeds and expands along this saying of Swami Vivekananda:
I have been asked to say something about the practical position of the Vedanta philosophy. As I have told you, theory is very good indeed, but how are we to carry it into practice? If it be absolutely impracticable, no theory is of any value whatever, except as intellectual gymnastics. The Vedanta, therefore, as a religion must be intensely practical. We must be able to carry it out in every part of our lives. And not only this, the fictitious differentiation between religion and the life of the world must vanish, for the Vedanta teaches oneness — one life throughout. The ideals of religion must cover the whole field of life, they must enter into all our thoughts, and more and more into practice.

Practical Vedanta-Swami Vivekananda,Delivered in London, 10th November 1896.


Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 19, 2012, 06:06:38 PM
Dear Ravi,

The fictitious differentiation about the outward world would vanish only when the outward looking mind is already realized,
the I-I. The outward looking mind still carries the little 'i' with all its inadequacies, then the world will appear good, bad or ugly.
Only after the realization, one can look at the world as Brahma Swarupam and not otherwise.

Arunachala Siva.   
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 19, 2012, 06:14:02 PM

Quote
The fictitious differentiation about the outward world would vanish only when the outward looking mind is already realized,
the I-I. The outward looking mind still carries the little 'i' with all its inadequacies, then the world will appear good, bad or ugly.
Only after the realization, one can look at the world as Brahma Swarupam and not otherwise.

Dear Sri Subramania, Ravi and others

Isn't this dualistic thinking - outside/inside, Atman/Brahman, the main obstacle? To believe in inside is not the same as believeing in outside? Within, where is this "within"?
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 19, 2012, 06:33:34 PM
Dear ramana,

The inward looking of mind, to search and quell itself into the Source is not dual thinking. In fact, no thinking is necessary.
Only sraddha is necessary. Sraddhavan phalathe jnanam, says the scripture. All dual thinking sprouts only when the I thought
comes out and jumps into the world.

An ajnani sees the serpent in the rope. The Jnani sees the rope only. In fact there is no both serpent and rope. There is only
rope and rope for ever. So also the jagat drishti. When one is immersed in jagat drishti, swarupam will not shine. When swarupam
shines, the jagat drishiti will disappear. The jagat itself will become the Brahma swarupam.   

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 19, 2012, 06:46:22 PM
Dear Ravi,

If all life is yoga in what is called practical vedanta, then how come when a Maharajah (in whose palace) with whom, Swami Vivekananda
was staying and when a dance performance was going on in the place, Swami should refrain from attending the dance performance?

Swami said Ketri Maharaj: I cannot come to see the dance performance. I have no desire to see her nor her dance and songs.

After some time, when the song "prabhu mere avaguna chitta na dharo; samadarshi hai nama thihaaro......" was heard, Swami
started thinking and then said to himself. "This woman has taught me the true Vedanta. I created divisions., I shall not indulge
in such divisions...When the dancing girl after the performance came to Swami to prostrate, he blessed her, truly believing that
she was a teacher of Vedanta to him.

(Swami Rangatananda, in his Manisha Panchakam, commentary)         

All divisions would vanish only after Self realization. The inward turned mind which finds out the Source helps this process.

Sri Bhagavan says: You remain summa, you shall soon realize Summa iruthal is Swarupam. Thereafter Swrupam itself is
Jagat, Swarupam itself is Jiva. Swarupam itself is Sivam. All are Siva Swarupam. (who am I).

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 19, 2012, 07:00:44 PM
Thank you, Sri Subramanian. I like explanation of what we all are talking about of Sri David Godman. Very profound and deep understanding of his of Lord Ramana's teachings. Here it is what he says:

One of Ramana Maharshi’s most frequent comments was that there were only two reliable methods for attaining Self-Realization; one could either pursue self-enquiry or one could surrender.

An almost equally common statement was that jnana and bhakti are ultimately the same. This second statement is usually interpreted to mean that whichever of the two paths one chooses to follow, the ultimate goal and the culminating experience will be the same.

It is generally assumed that the two paths do not converge until the moment of realisation is reached. However if Ramana Maharshi’s teachings are correctly interpreted, then it will be seen that the paths of surrender and Self-enquiry merge before Realisation, and that in the higher levels of practice, if one follows the path of surrender, then one’s sadhana will be the same as that of someone who has chosen the path of Self-enquiry.

This may seem very radical at first sight, but this is only because of the general misconceptionsthat many people have about Ramana’s teachings on the true nature, meaning and practice of surrender. In order to eliminate these misconceptions, and to clarify Ramana’s attitude and approach to surrender, it will be helpful to examine some of these commonly held ideas in the light of Ramana’s statements on the subject, firstly to show how unfounded most of these ideas are, and secondly, by eliminating them, to illustrate the profundity of Ramana’s real teachings.The most convenient starting point for this enquiry is the relationship that exists between Ramana Maharshi, the Guru, and the thousands of people who call themselves his devotees.

There is a long tradition in this country (India) of people accepting certain teachers as their gurus, and then proclaiming immediately that they have surrendered to them. In most cases, this surrender is only a statement of intent, or at best, there is a partial surrendering to this new authority figure in the hope of acquiring some material or spiritual reward.

Ramana’s opposition to this type of religious bribery was quite clear and it is best summed up in the following statement:

‘Surrender to Him and abide by His will
whether he appears or vanishes;
await His pleasure.
If you ask Him to do as you please,
it is not surrender but command to Him.
You cannot have Him obey you and yet
think that you have surrendered.
He knows what is best and when and
how to do it. Leave everything to Him;
His is the burden, you no longer have any cares.
All your cares are His.
Such is surrender.
This is bhakti”.
(Talks, p. 425).

This statement, typical of many that he made is a categorical refutation of the idea that one can surrender to one’s God or Guru, and yet demand that the God or Guru fulfills one’s desires or solves one’s problems. Despite this often repeated refutation, it is probably true to say that the majority of Ramana’s devotees both believe that they have surrendered to Ramana, yet at the  same time, would not hesitate to approach him with their personal and material problems, especially if the perceived need required an urgent solution.

In Ramana’s teachings on surrender, there is no room for stray desires, and no room for expectations or miracles, no matter how desperate the situation might appear to be.

Ramana says:

“If you have surrendered,
you must be able to abide by the will of God
and not make a grievance
out of what may not please you.”
(Talks p.115)

Under Ramana’s strict interpretation of absolute surrender, the only appeals which might qualify for approval are those where the devotee approaches the God or Guru with the attitude “This is your problem and not mine; please attend to it in any way you see fit.”

This attitude bears the marks of partial surrender, for it fulfills the bare minimum requirements of Ramana’s definition of true surrender. On this level of surrender, there is no longer any expectation of a particular solution, there is simply a willingness to accept whatever happens.

It is interesting to note in this connection that although Ramana clearly stated that devotees who wanted their problems solved were not practicing true surrender, he did admit that surrendering one’s problems to God or to the Guru was a legitimate course of action for those who felt that they could not stick to His absolute teaching of complete surrender.

He was once asked: “Is it proper that one prays to God when one is afflicted by worldly ills?” and his answer was:

“Undoubtedly.”
(Talks, p. 501).

This admission that the Guru may be approached with personal problems should be seen as an extension of, and not a contradiction of his teachings on absolute and unconditional surrender. For those who are not ready for complete surrender, there is this intermediate practice of surrendering one’s problems to the external “Higher Power.” It is not a dilution of his notion that surrender must be complete and total to be effective, it is more an admission that for some devotees, such a massive step is impractical without some lesser intermediate stage.

If we can reach this point where we accept that we cannot ask Ramana to solve our problems and still claim that we have surrendered, then we move forward a few steps in our understanding of his teachings, but if we then try to put our new understanding into practice, we immediately encounter a new and apparently insoluble problem. The problem is that the desire to surrender is in itself a desire which we want fulfilled, and since, according to Ramana, true surrender cannot be accomplished without complete desirelessness, the presence of this desire in us is sufficient to prevent true surrender from taking place. It is the paradox of effort which is inherent in nearly all forms of sadhana.

Simply stated, the problem is that there is a perception that there is an individual self which wants to extinguish itself so that the state of Realisation will be revealed, but anything which this individual self tries to do to eliminate itself merely prolongs its own existence. If one sees spiritual practice as something that one does to attain Realisation, then there is no solution to this problem; there is no solution because the whole problem stems from the totally false assumption that this individual self has a real
existence.

The first step along the path to true surrender is not to throw oneself at someone’s feet and say “I surrender”,  it is the cultivation of the awareness and the understanding that there is no individual self to surrender, and that this individual self never at any time had, has, or will have any real existence.


Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 19, 2012, 07:05:19 PM

When Ramana said on several occasions:

“Who is to surrender what and to whom?”
(Talks, p. 176),

he was trying to drive home this fundamental point that without this understanding that there is no individual self, then all spiritual practices are done under false pretences, and that meditation, surrender or self-enquiry done without this constant awareness are merely exercises in self-deception.

The best illustration of this point that I have come across appears in a recent publication called The Secret of Arunachala. In it, a devotee remarked to Ramana that a certain fellow devotee must be well advanced onthe spiritual path because he meditated for eight to ten hours every day. (Page 73).

“Oh,” replied Ramana,
“he meditates, he eats he sleeps.
But who is meditating, eating, sleeping?
What advantage is there in meditating for
ten hours a day if in the end that only has
the result of establishing you a little more deeply
in the conviction that it is you
who are meditating?”

This aspect of Ramana’s teachings, that one is already realised here and now is widely ignored when it comes to practice, but its importance cannot be overstated.

Ramana has said:

“The removal of ignorance is the aim of practice
and not acquisition of Realisation.”
(Talks p. 322).

The most fundamental piece of ignorance is that there exists an individual self who is going to do sadhana, and that by doing sadhana, this individual self will disappear or be merged in some super-being.

Until this concept is eliminated on the mental level, it is not an exaggeration to say that one is wasting one’s time in attempts to surrender or to enquire ‘Who am I?’ Correct attitude and correct understanding of this matter are of pre-eminent importance if the application of Ramana’s teaching is to be successful.

Returning now to the practice of surrender, and bearing in mind the necessity of maintaining the right attitude with regard to the nonexistence of the individual self, there remains the problem of how to surrender since the mere desire to surrender invents an illusory person who is going to surrender.

The key to this problem and the key to all problems connected with the practice of Ramana’s teachings, is to bypass the mind and move to the realm of being. One cannot truly surrender without escaping from that vast accumulation of ideas and desires we call the mind, and according to Ramana, one cannot ecape or destroy themind by any kind of mental activity.

Ramana’s solution is to let the mind subside to the point where it disappears, and what remains when the mind has subsided is the simple, pure being that was always there. In a conversation in Talks Ramana gives the following illuminating answer. He says:

“It is enough that one surrenders oneself. Surrender is to give oneself up to the original cause of one’s being … One’s source is within oneself. Give yourself up to it. That means that you should seek the source and merge in it.”
(Talks p.175).

This is an immensely profound statement which not only sweeps away many of the myths that surround the practice of surrender – it also shows an indication that the route to the rediscovery of the Self is the same whether one chooses to label it “surrender” or “self-enquiry”.

If we examine this statement closely it is possible to extract three important conclusions regarding Ramana’s attitude and approach to surrender. Firstly, there is no external deity or manifestation to whom one must surrender; secondly, the source of one’s being is within us; and thirdly, and most importantly, true surrender is to go back tothe original cause of one’s being and remain firmly and continually rooted there.

If this is translated into terms of practical advice, then surrender comes down to two words: being and stillness.

In Talks Ramana says:

“Your duty is to be, and not to be this or that,‘I am that I am’ sums up the whole truth. The method is summed up in ‘Be still’.”
(Talks, p.333).

The stillness and the being of which Ramana speaks co-exist with each other and reveal themselves in their full radiance whenever interest in one’s thought stream dries up. Thus, for Ramana, the practice of surrender is to find within oneself this feeling of beingness and surrender oneself completely to it. On this level of surrender, practice consists of giving up wrong ideas by refusing to give them attention.

Ramana’s statement that

“The removal of ignorance is the aim of practiceand not acquisition of Realisation”
(Talks, p. 322)

is extremely relevant in this connection, for it is only wrong ideas that separate us from a full awareness of our natural state. This final stage of surrender is simply a giving up of attachment to ignorance by bypassing the mental processes which cause and perpetuate it. The practice is the fruit of the conviction that there is nothing to surrender, for by denying attention to the mental processes, one is finally surrendering the erroneous idea that there is an individual self to surrender.

When one attempts to practice this conviction by putting attention on the feeling of being that is within us, thoughts and desires will initially continue to grow at their normal rate, but if attention is maintained over a period of time, the density of thoughts decreases, and in the space between them there emerges the clarity, the stillness and the peace of pure being. Occasionally this stillness and this peace will expand and intensify until a point is reached where no effort is needed to sustain the awareness of being, the attention merges imperceptibly with the being itself, and the occasional stray thoughts no longer have the power to distract.

When this point of surrender has been reached, all the ignorant misperceptions, which constitute the illusory ego, have disappeared. But this is not the final state of Realisation, because the misconceptions are only in suspension and sooner or later, they can emerge again.

Ramana has stated that the final, definite elimination of ignorance is a matter for Self. He says that effort can only take one to a certain point and then the Self takes over and takes one to the goal. In the case of surrender, the initial effort is the shifting of one’s attention from the world of thoughts to the feeling of being. When there is no attention on it, the mind subsides revealing the being from which it came, then in some mysterious way, the Self eliminates the residual ignorance and Realisation dawns.

Ramana summed it all up very neatly when he said:

“Just keep quiet and Bhagavan will do the rest.”
(Ramana Maharshi and the Path of Self-Knowledge p. 147)

This shifting of attention is the ultimate act of surrender. It is an acknowledgement that the mind, its concepts and desires are all ignorance, and that involvement in and attachment to the ignorance is all that prevents a full awareness of Reality.

It is an acknowledgement that nothing that is understood or believed is of any use; that no belief, theory, idea or mental activity will bring one any nearer to Realisation. It is an acknowledgement and a final acceptance of the idea that all striving and all notions of attainment are futile and illusory. This simple shifting of attention constitutes the culmination of surrender because it is the final surrendering of the ignorant notion that there is an individual self to surrender. It is the final acceptance in practice of the conviction that there is only attachment to wrong ideas and that this attachment can be severed by refusing to give these ideas any attention.

This final level of surrendering ignorance represents the full flowering of Ramana’s teachings on surrender, and any less absolute interpretation merely entangles one in the meshes of the ignorant ideas he was striving so hard to eliminate. It is admitted that as a concession to weakness, he occasionally permitted and approved lower levels of surrender such as devotion and worship, but for those who could comprehend and practice his more absolute teachings, he would be satisfied with nothing less than the total unconditioned surrender which is implied in the practice of being and the detachment from ignorance.

Bearing this in mind it will now be constructive to have a closer look at the practice of self-enquiry, and to focus attention on the large overlap that exists between enquiry and surrender. Ramana’s advice on self-enquiry was clear, simple and direct, but like his advice on surrender, it has often been misunderstood and misrepresented. The easiest way to avoid errors is to remember three simple but fundamental tenets of Ramana’s teachings; firstly, that we are all Realised here and now and that the only purpose of sadhana is to remove the idea that we are not; secondly, there is no individual self to extinguish because the individual self never at any time existed; and thirdly no amount of mental sadhana is helpful because the mind cannot do anything except extend the frontiers of its own ignorance. If an awareness of these points is continually maintained, then the most obvious errors in practice can be avoided. One immediately sees that concentration on a point in the body is counterproductive because it involves mental effort. One can also eliminate the idea that self-enquiry is a mantra or an exercise in self-analysis because both of these approaches involve mental activity. On a more subtle level, if one maintains an awareness that the individual self at no time ever existsthen one can avoid the dangerous but often deeply-rooted notion that self-enquiry involvesone self looking for another self.

To cut through the entanglements of these and similar misconceptions, and to find out what positive practical advice Ramana had to offer on self-enquiry, one cannot do better than go back to the words of Ramana himself.

In Maharshi’s Gospel, he says that:

“The purpose of self-enquiry is to focus the entire mind at its source”.
(p.48).

The purpose of this focussing is the same as that which has just been outlined for the practice of surrender. According to Ramana the mind is only a connection of ignorant ideas and unless one steps completely outside this mental realm by keeping attention on the being from which the mind emerges, then the ignorance and the wrong ideas inevitably continue. It is important to note that Ramana never explains self-enquiry as a practice by which an individual self is eliminated, he always phrases his advice to indicate that when one looks for the source of the mind or the ego, they both disappear, and it is discovered that neither of them ever existed. This stepping outside the mind is as crucial to an understanding of self-enquiry as it is to an understanding of surrender.

In a passage in Talks he says:

“The fact is that the mind is only a bundle of thoughts. How can you extinguish it by the thought of doing so or by a desire… Your thoughts and desires are part and parcel of the mind! The mind is simply fattened by new thoughts rising up. Therefore it is foolish to attempt to kill the mindby means of the mind. The only way to do it is to find its source and hold on to it.’’
(p. 463).

This finding the source and holding on to it is the beginning, end and purpose of self-enquiry. The precise method is simple and well known. When thoughts arise one does not allow them to develop. One asks oneself the words “To whom do these thoughts occur?” And the answer is “To me,” and then the question occurs “Then who am I? What is this thing in me which I keep calling ‘I’?”

By doing this practice one is shifting attention from the world of thoughts to the being from where the thought and the thinker first emerged. The transfer of attention is simply executed because if one holds onto the feeling “I am” the initial thought of “I” will gradually give way to the feeling of “I” and then sooner or later this feeling “I am” will merge into being itself, to a state where there is no longer either a thinker of the thought ‘I’ or a feeler of the feeling ‘I am’; there will only be being itself. This is the stage where attention to the feeling of “I am” has merged with the being from which it came so that there is no longer the dualistic distinction of a person giving attention to the feeling of “I am”. There is only being and awareness of being.

lf this practice is done persistently, then the verbal redirection of attention soon becomes redundant; as soon as there is the awareness of attachment to a particular thought then attention is immediately switched back to the being, from which the thoughts and the imaginary thinker came. It is important to stress that the verbal preliminaries of asking “Who am I?” or “To whom do these thoughts occur?” are simply tools to redirect the attention; the real self-enquiry begins with the subsequent witnessing of the disappearance of the thoughts and the re-emergence of being as the mind subsides into temporary abeyance.

Ramana summarized this very succinctly when he said in Talks:

“Abhyasa (spiritual practice) consists of withdrawal into the self everytime you are disturbed by thought. It is not concentration or destruction of the mind, but withdrawal into the Self”.
(p. 464).

Since, in Ramana’s terminology the terms being and Self are virtually synonymous, what he is describing here is the practice of withdrawing into being, and remaining there undisturbed by the transient distractions of thoughts.

This practice may be viewed from two perspectives. On the higher levels of surrender maintaining awareness of being can be seen as a surrendering of wrong ideas including the wrong idea that there is someone to surrender, whereas in self-enquiry, one reaches this same point of being by actively discarding thoughts and by tracing back the feeling of “I am”,  until it finally subsides into the being from which it came.

Though the two descriptions might appear to be describing two completely different approaches, particularly in the preliminary stages, if the practices of surrender and self-enquiry are persistently and earnestly persued, the two approaches finally merge imperceptibly into the single practice of being.

To surrender false ideas is simply to be and that same state of being is the point where thoughts and the idea of the thinker disappear. This point, this state of being, is beautifully described in Talks when Ramana says:

“It is the state of perfect awareness and perfect stillness combined. It is the interval between two successive thoughts, and the source from which the thoughts spring…Go to the root of the thoughts and you reach the stillness of sleep. But you reach it in the full vigour of search, that is with perfect awareness.”
(p. 564)

This point which Ramana describes so graphically is the point of convergence between the path of self-enquiry and the path of surrender. The final, definitive detachment from ignorance has not yet happened, for this final elimination is a matter for the Self. Until that elimination takes placeone can only be, and once the awareness of being is maintained effortlessly, then the being of surrender in which one has given up all ideas,is the same being which results from witnessingthe disappearance of the “I–thought”.

This state of being is still a stage of sadhana, for it lacks permanence and the mind is liable to reassert its dominance at any time. However it is the final stage, and as such it is the purest and deepest level of both surrender and self-enquiry. It is a state which belongs neither to the world of ignorance nor to the Absolute Reality, but somehow, mysteriously, according to Ramana, it provides the link between the two.

When Ramana said on one occasion,

“Do not meditate, BE,
do not think that you are, BE”,
(Secret of Anurachala, p. 73),

he was summarising the whole of his practical teachings, because for Ramana, it is only in this state of effortless awareness of being that the final Realisation will be revealed.


Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 19, 2012, 07:33:01 PM
Dear ramana,

first things first.

1. Sri Bhagavan never said effortless awareness. It is JK's pet thoery. To attain the ever abiding awareness, one should
put in great efforts.

2. Secondly the various quotes given by you are told by Sri Bhagavan on different occasions to suit the maturity level of
the devotees. e.g. Who is to surrender to whom? It only means that one can achieve total surrender to know that the
surrendered and the surrendered are the same Substance.

3. He said that there is no individual self and all are only Brahman. But at the same time He advocated spiritual practices,
because one should not understand individual self and Brahman are one and the same is not a statement. It is a state.

This state of oneness is to be achieved by practice with efforts.

4. Sri Bhagavan never said that hours of meditation is a yardstick for progress. No. True and deep meditation even for
a few minutes would confer more benefits than long hours of mind wandering meditation. He even told Chadwick once
that the progress achieved in the self inquiry can never be measured. The realization dawns suddenly like a lightning.
By merely seeing a devotee or his practices (number of hours etc.,) one can never measure the progress.

5. Sri Bhagavan called everyone as Jnani. He said that there is no Ajnani at all.  For that matter there is not even Jnani.
Only Jnanam. Why did He say that? Because to be a Jnani is not a title. It is fullness. No one to utter that one is a Jnani
after realization. Again, why did he say that all are pretending to be ajnanis. It is because, we take the role of little 'i'
and do gory dances in the world.  This pretension that this little 'i' should go. The body and mind are real  - this idea should
go. This idea or vasana is there since several births. The dirt is thick and this should cleaned up every day systematically.     

6. Sri Bhagavan has said that I is the Original Sin, the primal and primordial ignorance. This should go.  The realization
is a myth - He said. What is necessary is only wash off the sin. Then realization will reveal itself on its own. See Verse 45 of AAMM.

7. The three cardinal truths mentioned by you are correct. There is no deity outside you. They are all mental concepts.
See His shocking revelations in Verses of Devi Kalottaram - 15, 62, 69, 71. And His verses in Atma Sakshat Prakaranam - 23, 58, and 59.
See also the verse 5 of Ulladu Narpadu - anubhandam.

8. Finally, what is the essence? Summa Iru. Be. don't be doing anything.

Arunachala Siva. 
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 19, 2012, 07:44:29 PM
Just to mark that my last post are not my own words but of Sri David Godman which I like very much. The important thing is that I understand what you mean and I agree.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 19, 2012, 08:23:04 PM
Subramanian,
We need to read the life of Swami Vivekananda to understand this completely.Most of the 'Swamis' add their masala! :)
When the incident happened Swamiji was a 'wandering sannyasi'.This is what Sri Ramakrishna says:
"The sannyasi must observe very strict discipline. He must not look even at the picture of a
woman. But this rule doesn't apply to householders. An aspirant should not associate with a
woman, even though she is very much devoted to God. A sannyasi, even though he may
have subdued his passions, should follow this discipline to set an example to householders.
"

Now here is the story of Swami Vivekananda and the Nautch girl:
At Khetri an incident occurred that the Swami remembered all his life. He was invited
by the Maharaja to a musical entertainment in which a nautch-girl was to sing, and he
refused to come, since he was a monk and not permitted to enjoy secular pleasures.
The singer was hurt and sang in a strain of lamentation. Her words reached the
Swami's ears:
Look not, O Lord, upon my sins!
Is not Same-sightedness Thy name?
One piece of iron is used
Inside the holy shrine,
Another for the knife
Held in the butcher's hand;
Yet both of these are turned to gold
When touched by the philosophers' stone.
Sacred the Jamuna's water,
Foul the water in the ditch;
Yet both alike are sanctified
Once they have joined the Ganga's stream.
So, Lord, look not upon my sins!
Is not Same-sightedness Thy name?
The Swami was deeply moved. This girl, whom society condemned as impure, had
taught him a great lesson: Brahman, the Ever Pure, Ever Free, and Ever Illumined, is
the essence of all beings.
Before God there is no distinction of good and evil, pure and
impure. Such pairs of opposites become manifest only when the light of Brahman is
obscured by maya. A sannyasin ought to look at all things from the standpoint of
Brahman. He should not condemn anything, even a so-called impure person.
The Swami then joined the party and with tears in his eyes said to the girl: 'Mother, I
am guilty. I was about to show you disrespect by refusing to come to this room. But
your song awakened my consciousness.'


This shows the Human side of Swamiji,not that he  meant to show disrespect but had to play the role of a Sannyasi.

To understand this completely,we only need to go back to the time when as Narendra ,how he was taken to a brothel by a friend of his!This happened soon after his father's death when Narendra was in great difficulty and his friends thought that taking him to a place of illfame would help relieve his 'Stress'!
In Swamiji's words:"Some of my boyhood friends,whose characters had become dissipated in their youth and who had resorted to unscrupulous means to earn money,now became aware of my poverty and tried to drag me into their company.I noticed that those among them who had suddenly fallen into difficult circumstances as I had,and were forced to adopt an ignoble path for their livelihood,actually had empathy for me.A wealthy woman had been infatuated with me for a long time.When she found an opportunity,she sent a message inviting me to end my poverty by accepting her along with her wealth.I sternly rejected her offer.Another woman approached me with a similiar proposal:'I told her:'Look.you have wasted your life seeking the pleasures of your worthless body.Now death is in front of you .Have you done anything to prepare yourself?Shun these filthy desires and call on God'!
That lady later rebuked the 'Friends' of Narendra for her misbehaving with a Sadhu!

We only need to see what Sri Ramakrishna said about Narendra-Swamiji was one who came to earth not to work out 'his karma'  but to teach Humans.More on this later.

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 19, 2012, 08:25:12 PM
Quote
Finally, what is the essence? Summa Iru. Be. don't be doing anything.

When I read this statement of yours words of Ramesh Baleskar popped up in my mind. Summa iru is synonym of Saranagathi, Atma-jnana and so on. But see what Sri Bakeskar says:

"The joke is even the surrendering is not in your control. Why? Because so long as there is an individual who says "I surrender" there is a surrenderer, an individual ego... What I'm saying is that even the surrendering is not in [your] hands."


So I questioned myself how can I surrender when surrendering means "I (ego) am no more existent"? So please friends, explain me that. What is Lord Ramana's opinion about that?
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 19, 2012, 08:39:38 PM
So I questioned myself how can I surrender when surrendering means "I (ego) am no more existent"? So please friends, explain me that. What is Lord Ramana's opinion about that?

Dear i,

Responding from the point of your question. Thou Art That, There is no ignorance, there is nothing to enquire, there is nothing to surrender, Bhagavan says: “Enquire to whom has this ignorance come and you will find it never came to you and that you have always been that Sat-Chit-Ananda. One performs all sorts of penances to become what one already is.

All effort is simply to get rid of this viparita buddhi or mistaken impression that one is limited and bound by the woes of samsara.”

Let one practise enquiry (what ever Sadhana) so long as separateness is perceived. If once realisation arises there is no further need for enquiry. The question will also not arise. Can awareness ever think of questioning who is aware? Awareness remains pure and simple.

(Talks 454)

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 19, 2012, 08:41:08 PM
Thank you, Sri Nagaraj. It was much helpful and relieving!
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 19, 2012, 08:53:52 PM
Friends,
Excerpt from 'Practical Vedanta'-Talk by Swami Vivekananda
The ideals of religion must cover the whole field of life, they must enter into all our thoughts, and more and more into practice. I will enter gradually on the practical side as we proceed. But this series of lectures is intended to be a basis, and so we must first apply ourselves to theories and understand how they are worked out, proceeding from forest caves to busy streets and cities; and one peculiar feature we find is that many of these thoughts have been the outcome, not of retirement into forests, but have emanated from persons whom we expect to lead the busiest lives — from ruling monarchs.


Shvetaketu was the son of Âruni, a sage, most probably a recluse. He was brought up in the forest, but he went to the city of the Panchâlas and appeared at the court of the king, Pravâhana Jaivali. The king asked him, "Do you know how beings depart hence at death?" "No, sir." "Do you know how they return hither?" "No, sir." "Do you know the way of the fathers and the way of the gods?" "No, sir." Then the king asked other questions. Shvetaketu could not answer them. So the king told him that he knew nothing. The boy went back to his father, and the father admitted that he himself could not answer these questions. It was not that he was unwilling to answer these questions. It was not that he was unwilling to teach the boy, but he did not know these things. So he went to the king and asked to be taught these secrets. The king said that these things had been hitherto known only among kings; the priests never knew them. He, however, proceeded to teach him what he desired to know. In various Upanishads we find that this Vedanta philosophy is not the outcome of meditation in the forests only, but that the very best parts of it were thought out and expressed by brains which were busiest in the everyday affairs of life. We cannot conceive any man busier than an absolute monarch, a man who is ruling over millions of people, and yet, some of these rulers were deep thinkers.


Everything goes to show that this philosophy must be very practical; and later on, when we come to the Bhagavad-Gita — most of you, perhaps, have read it, it is the best commentary we have on the Vedanta philosophy — curiously enough the scene is laid on the battlefield, where Krishna teaches this philosophy to Arjuna; and the doctrine which stands out luminously in every page of the Gita is intense activity, but in the midst of it, eternal calmness. This is the secret of work, to attain which is the goal of the Vedanta. Inactivity, as we understand it in the sense of passivity, certainly cannot be the goal. Were it so, then the walls around us would be the most intelligent; they are inactive. Clods of earth, stumps of trees, would be the greatest sages in the world; they are inactive. Nor does inactivity become activity when it is combined with passion. Real activity, which is the goal of Vedanta, is combined with eternal calmness, the calmness which cannot be ruffled, the balance of mind which is never disturbed, whatever happens. And we all know from our experience in life that that is the best attitude for work.

Those interested in reading the complete talk may refer:
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Complete_Works_of_Swami_Vivekananda/Volume_2/Practical_Vedanta_and_other_lectures/Practical_Vedanta:_Part_I (http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Complete_Works_of_Swami_Vivekananda/Volume_2/Practical_Vedanta_and_other_lectures/Practical_Vedanta:_Part_I)
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 19, 2012, 09:03:29 PM
Thank you, Sri Nagaraj. It was much helpful and relieving!

Dear i, please stay with this discernment, what is discerned can be easily forgotten by passage of time and by the advent of vasanas, other wise, we have to travel once again all through the jungle all over again, needlessly :D

Saint Jnanaeshwar has expressed maximum only on the subject that there is no ignorance, whatsoever. i will share here some really thought provoking exclamations of His, in short time.

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Complete_Works_of_Swami_Vivekananda/Volume_2/Practical_Vedanta_and_other_lectures/Practical_Vedanta:_Part_I (http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Complete_Works_of_Swami_Vivekananda/Volume_2/Practical_Vedanta_and_other_lectures/Practical_Vedanta:_Part_I)

Dear i, yes, this practical Vedanta is truly excellent book.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 19, 2012, 09:14:19 PM
Quote
Dear i, please stay with this discernment, what is discerned can be easily forgotten by passage of time and by the advent of vasanas, other wise, we have to travel once again all through the jungle all over again, needlessly :D

Haha, unfortunately, you are right dear Nagarajji! I have observed this phenomenon while reading my post from different times of posting. :D Sometimes I ask one question many time or speak about one thing multiple times. But what can I do? It is not purposly. :D As you have said vasanas can do many miseries. :)
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 19, 2012, 09:18:12 PM
Quote
Those interested in reading the complete talk may refer:
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Complete_Works_of_Swami_Vivekananda/Volume_2/Practical_Vedanta_and_other_lectures/Practical_Vedanta:_Part_I
Namaskar.

As I have already said Svami Vivekananda's works are priceless. I like His practicality, honestness, openness, simplicity, devotional attitude. He is really One Indian Jewel! ! !
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 19, 2012, 09:30:42 PM
Dear i,

:D I have experienced that innumerable number of times. BEWARE, once we have seen the hell properly, we will never want to go there again, even out of some error, faux-pas :D

Here is where Nisargadatta Maharaj says, keep sticking to "I am" at all times, never leave it even for a moment, otherwise, it gets camouflaged yet again, needlessly.



Dear i, here i present, some sample expressions of Jnaneshwar. I had to stop myself from posting more, every thing is so beautiful, cannot be missed out -

If absolute knowledge required the aid of some other kind of knowledge (to know itself) it would be nothing but ignorance.

It can be seen, therefore, that he who perceives  that there is nothing Does not himself become nothing . The Self has this same unique kind of existence, Beyond both existence and non-existence.

If ignorance deludes the knower, the Self, Who, then, is there to regard it as ignorance?

And if it does not delude the knower, would it not be shameful to call it ignorance?

If the clouds really eclipsed the Sun, who would illumine them? If a person were really annihilated by sleep, Who would experience it?

If the one in whom ignorance resides Becomes ignorant, That ignorance would be indiscernable.

For that by which ignorance is discerned Can never be ignorance itself.

It would make no sense to say that there is a cataract in the eye, But the eyesight is unimpaired.



Moreover, Dear i, That which has discerned all these, itself cannot be discerned, can discern, Discern itself? Can the Self know itself? Self alone is, it is not an object to be known, It is. like again, the expressions - Can eye See itself, can tongue taste itself, can knife cut itself?

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 19, 2012, 09:39:37 PM
Haha, but the head can see itself in the mirror and to hit it thinking that it hit itself. Now I start realizing why the world is so funny for many jnanis. :D
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 19, 2012, 09:47:15 PM
Dear friend, I want to share with you an article by I-don't-know :) which I like very. It describes very important moments of our path and shows the work of the mind. Here it is:

Atma Vichara

Atma Vichara is sometimes known as "the royal way" or "the quick way" to awakening.

"Atma" means consciousness or awareness or the unfathomable intelligence. "Vichara" means inquiry into. So Atma Vichara means "inquiry into consciousness itself."

We all long for happiness. But we think that this happiness will come from objects or concepts, which cannot provide it. Nevertheless, we search for the next object or concept that will bring us happiness—and when it doesn't, the next one, and the next one.

So we long for more money or respect or more friends or more love or prestige. We long for heaven or God or awakening. We long for and long for, and it never ends, because it is the very nature of the mind to keep longing no matter what it has.

Atma Vichara reverses this, and asks us to inquire into the very source of this longing. We ask: "Who is it that is feeling this longing?" And when we look, we find nothing there but awareness itself.

When we catch ourselves thinking about ourselves we ask, "Who is it that is thinking about this 'me'?" And when we look we cannot find any personal someone. All we can find is awareness itself, searching for it.

When we feel sad and depressed we can ask, "Who is it that is feeling sad and depressed?" And we won't find anyone there. All we'll find is the awareness itself that is asking.

When we feel lonely and fearful we can ask, "Who is it that is feeling lonely and fearful?" And all we'll find is the vast consciousness itself in which this loneliness and fear is momentarily residing.

But whatever the contents of consciousness, those contents don't affect it, anymore than the weather fundamentally affects the sky. The sky may contain clouds or sunshine or rain, but the sky itself is unaffected. It continues to be pure spaciousness, no matter what the weather.

Or imagine a mirror. A mirror is not concerned about what is reflected in it. If there are many reflections it does not feel busy. If there are no reflections it does not feel bored. It just reflects whatever is there.

So it is with consciousness. The objects of consciousness come and go, like fireflies in the night. Desires come and go. Feelings come and go. Thoughts come and go. States of mind come and go. But consciousness always remains, always there. It has always been there, and indeed, is there now—pristine, pure, unsullied by anything.

The great 14th century Zen master Bassui used this so-called path. He would sit in isolated forests and hear a bird and ask, "Who is it that is hearing this bird?" And he could never find any "I" there, but only awareness itself. There was no "person" hearing it, but only aware spaciousness, like the sky.

The great 20th century master Ramana Maharshi used this as well. He would inquire, "Who am I?" or "What is this 'I' that my mind keeps thinking about?" And ultimately he couldn't find any personal somebody, but only the endless Self that has no boundaries anywhere. He could only find the awareness in which the question was taking place.

Hence the saying of the great masters that in reality there is no personal life. They say it in different ways, in different cultures and different times, but it's the same thing:

"There is no separate being, only Buddha-nature."

"I live not, but the Father liveth in me."

"Only the Self exists."

"There is nothing but the One."



Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 19, 2012, 09:53:49 PM
Dear i,

yes, now we can grasp, why some jnanis were intoxicated in bliss, and some laughed in ecstasy of madness reality.

i post some more, out of sheer joy for myself.

Jnaneshwar says:

When you look in a mirror and see your own face,
You realize that both are only yourself.

By looking in a mirror, one perceives his own identity;
But that identity was already there.

Knowledge could know itself
If a mirror could reflect itself
To itself.

Can a mirror see its own polished surface?

“When a mirror is held before one’s face,
That face appears to be in the mirror;
But, in fact, the face is
In its own place and not in the mirror.

“It is the rope which actually exists,
Even though it appears as a snake.
It is the Witness who really exists,
Even though He appears
As the object of perception.

A face sees only itself,
Even though a mirror has revealed it.
And that face remains the same,
In itself,
Even when it is not revealed by a mirror.

Where there is nothing, what can one know?
The eyes can see, but can they see themselves?
How can knowledge be of use when all is oneself?

He may perform actions,
But he has no goal to attain.
Do not imagine
That, if he did nothing,
He would miss his goal.

His rule of conduct is his own sweet will.
His meditation is whatever
He happens to be doing.
The glory of liberation
Serves as an asana (seat cushion)
To one in such a state.

He does not allow room
For either remembering or forgetting;
For this reason,
His behavior is not like that of others.

Since the Sun of Self-realization
Has arisen in the sky of pure Consciousness,
It has swallowed up
Both the day of knowledge
And the night of ignorance.

Thus, he who knows does not know,
And even he who does not know, knows.
Where, then,
Could knowledge and ignorance dwell?

Knowledge turns into ignorance,
And ignorance is dispelled by knowledge;
Each is cancelled by the other.

Actually,
Knowledge and ignorance are destroyed
In the process of discerning their meaning.

Both the husband
And the wife lose their lives
When each cuts off the other’s head.

By His own illumination,
The Self is perceiving Himself
In all these various forms.

i end exercise restraint here :)

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 19, 2012, 09:57:34 PM
The great 14th century Zen master Bassui used this so-called path. He would sit in isolated forests and hear a bird and ask, "Who is it that is hearing this bird?" And he could never find any "I" there, but only awareness itself. There was no "person" hearing it, but only aware spaciousness, like the sky.

What joy, truly, how direct and simple, cannot be more easier. This sums it all up!

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 19, 2012, 10:24:26 PM
Dear Nagaraj,
even the death of Sri Bassui was extraordinary:
Quote
In 1387 (at the age of 61), as Bassui was sitting in zazen meditation among his followers, he turned to them and shouted twice:

"Look straight ahead. What's there? If you see it as it is You will never err."

He then died.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 19, 2012, 11:02:12 PM
Dear i,

interesting! Great jnanis, chose the way they exit from the physical body. There is this concept of Jiva Samadhi in our part of culture, where the realised ones voluntarily leaves his body. We have Vallalar, who even vanished in thin air, no trace of his body, Manickavachakar is said to have disappeared into light (no sure) Jnaneshwar built a samadhi and it was covered when he was alive, he chose the date, time, etc... and went and sat in samadhi. Raghavendra Swami of Mantralaya, as well built a  Samadhi and sat in Samadhi and it was covered, Sringeri Chandrashekhara Bharati Swamy went into Tunga River and sat inside in Padmasana motionless and left his body, moments later his attendants found his body floating in water in Padmasana posture intact. I also believe that Ramanar too left his body voluntarily, as his body became too weak, he did not want to cause trouble to others and at the time of his release from body his clock stopped at the very time, and a shooting star was seen rise above the Arunachala hill. There are innumerable stories.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 19, 2012, 11:07:33 PM
And how can we forget, Swami Vivekananda had said he would live up to the age of 40!

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 20, 2012, 09:45:18 AM
Dear i,

The conclusion of yesterday's discussion is merely intellectual understanding. Bhagavan says, first understand intellectually, and, then try to "Be That" for our intellect, mind will not allow us to meditate. All these are basically to quieten the Mind, Intellect, and resolve itself completely as it now knows very well that the Self is Supreme and Ultimate. The more one knows the truth intellectually, the lesser trouble the mind, intellect would cause, the more and more one grasps the Truth, the Vasanas ie pre dispositions, feel shamed and feel how little it is before the Self, drop away out of sheer humbleness. Hence knowing this truth is important, before  one is truly able to meditate. One should develop the yearning to attain the Self, beyond anything. With this intellectual knowledge, one can survive very well in the world :D one can preach and speak wonderfully and attract millions of followers, but, if still one is unable to repose as Self, all this knowledge is useless tinsel.

Like in todays post under the Topi "Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough" as it was shared as follows:

“Heart is the consciousness that exists as mere being. It does not rise as ‘I’ and go out to know the sense objects, the non-Self. To the consciousness that remains still without objectifying, the truth of itself shines spontaneously. Therefore, to hold onto that Heart, which is consciousness, as the target, and to remain firmly established in it, without movement, is the shining of pure being.”

                                V. 435, GVK, Edited by Sri D. Godman

Bhagavan says in Upadesa Saaram 26:

आत्मसंस्थितिःस्वात्मदर्शनं ।
आत्मनिर्द्वयादात्मनिष्ठता ॥

ätma-saàsthitiù svätma-darçanamätma-nirdvayäd ätma-niñöhatä

Being the Self is knowing the Self, because thereis only one Self, and not two. This Being and knowing the Self is abiding in the Reality.



Now, with this, i want to share the following from the Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna. i am not sure, if it has already been posted b Sri Ravi, but, i post it here, as it is very much of relevance.

Favourable conditions for realization of God


"To attain God a man must have certain favourable conditions: the company of holy men, discrimination, and the blessings of a real teacher. Perhaps his elder brother takes the responsibility for the family; perhaps his wife has spiritual qualities and is very virtuous; perhaps he is not married at all or entangled in worldly life. He succeeds when conditions like these are fulfilled.

"In a certain family a man lay seriously ill. He was at the point of death. Someone said: 'Here is a remedy: First it must rain when the star Svati is in the ascendant; then some of that rain-water must collect in a human skull; then a frog must come there and a snake must chase it; and as the frog is about to be bitten by the snake, it must jump away and the poison of the snake must drop into the skull. You must prepare a medicine from this poison and give it to the patient. Then he will live.' The head of the family consulted the almanac about the star and set out at the right moment. With great longing of heart he began to search for the different ingredients. He prayed to God, 'O Lord, I shall succeed only if You bring together all the
ingredients.' As he was roaming about he actually saw a skull lying on the ground. Presently there came a shower of rain.
Then the man exclaimed: 'O gracious Lord, I have got the rain-water under Svati, and the skull too. What is more, some of the rain has fallen into the skull. Now be kind enough to bring together the other ingredients.' He was reflecting with a yearning heart when he saw a poisonous snake approaching. His joy knew no bounds. He became so excited that he could feel the thumping of his own heart. 'O God,' he prayed, 'now the snake has come too. I have procured most of the ingredients. Please be gracious and give me the remaining ones.' No sooner did he pray thus than a frog hopped up. The snake pursued it. As they came near the skull and the snake was about to bite the frog, the frog jumped over the skull and the snake's poison fell
into it. The man began to dance, clapping his hands for joy. So I say that one gets everything through yearning.

"A man cannot realize God unless he renounces everything mentally. A sādhu cannot lay things up. 'Birds and wandering monks do not make provision for the morrow.' Such is the state of my mind that I cannot carry even clay in my hand. Once, when Hriday tormented me, I thought of leaving this place and going to Benares. I thought of taking some clothes with me. But how could I take money? So I could not go to Benares. (All laugh.)

(To Mahima) "You are a householder. Therefore you should hold bothto 'this' and to 'that'-both to the world and to God."

MAHlMA: "Sir, can one who holds to 'that' also hold to 'this'?"

MASTER: "Once, sitting on the bank of the Ganges neat the Panchavati, holding a rupee in one hand and clay in the other, I discriminated, 'The rupee is the clay-the clay is verily the rupee, and the rupee is verily the clay', and then threw the rupee into the river. But I was a little frightened. 'How foolish of me to offend the goddess of fortune!' I thought. 'What shall I do if she doesn't provide me with food any more?' Then, like Hazra, I sought help in a ruse. I said to the goddess, 'Mother, may you dwell in my heart.' Once the Divine Mother was pleased with a man's austerities and said to him, 'You may ask a favour of Me.' 'O Mother,' said he, 'if You are so pleased. with me, then grant that I may eat from a gold plate with my grandchildren.' Now, in one boon the man got everything: grandchildren, wealth, and gold plate. (All laugh.)

"When the mind is freed from 'woman and gold', it can be directed to God and become absorbed in Him. It is the bound alone who can be freed.

The moment the mind 'turns away from God, it is bound. When does the lower needle of a pair of scales move away from the upper one? When one pan is pressed down by a weight. 'Woman and gold' is the weight.

"Why does a child cry on coming out of its mother's womb? With its cry it says, as it were: 'Just see where I am now! In my mother's womb I was meditating on the Lotus Feet of God; but see where I am now!'

(To Mahima) "You should renounce mentally. Live the life of a house holder in a spirit of detachment."

MAHIMA: "Can a man live in the world if his mind is once directed to God?"

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 20, 2012, 10:31:28 AM
Dear Nagaraj, ramana

Yes. One should understand Atma  Vichara intellectually. And then understand that one cannot do Atma Vichara by intellect and mind.
Sri Bhagavan says it is like sleepless sleep. In deep sleep, there is no entry for the mind and intellect and also for names and forms.
In deep sleep one even does not his own name!  Realization is like deep sleep but fully aware of the Self. That is why Sri Bhagavan,
when He left Madurai, could not even sign His name in the parting note. Many times Sri Bhagavan illustrated this in Tiruvannamalai.
Once someone came to see Him in Virupaksha Cave. He could not recognize Him since He was building a small wall with mud and water.
He asked: Where is Sri Ramana Maharshi? He did not answer. The poor man left the place. On the way back, he met Echammal. He asked her: Where is Sri Ramana Maharshi? Echammal took him again and showed Sri Bhagavan to him. She then asked Him: Bhagavan! How can you deceive that person? Sri Bhagavan said: Who is Ramana Maharshi. People call me by a variety of names. Which name do I have to say as mine?

On another occasion, someone came with a paper where many had given their name and signature for having lent money to that lady for
building a small house.  Sri Bhagavan even after persuasion did not sign. Poor lady! She returned disappointed. The devotees asked Him: Why not you write your name, Bhagavan? Sri Bhagavan said: What name do I have as my own? Even the vessels in the kitchen have got the name Ramana engraved. What name shall I sign?

Even on the commission of enquiry's note prepared after questioning Him, He simply put a dash and no name.

On a couple of rare occasions, He signed as Arunachala.  Arunachala is Bhagavan. Bhagavan is Arunachala.

Arunachala Siva.                   
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 20, 2012, 12:52:52 PM
Dear Subramanian,
         :) Did you not say [several times] earlier that Atma Vichara is done with the mind alone ?
or am i mistaken ?
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 20, 2012, 01:08:22 PM
Dear srkudai,

The study about Atma Vichara is done by mind. The initial question Who am I? is done by mind. Thereafter what is needed is
only Sraddha, attention. Sri Bhagavan calls it as thuppaRivu - in Verse 46 of Sri AAMM. thuppaRivu means the power of self
inquiry with attention alone.  One should be lion hearted to  pursue that attention, Verse 45 of Sri AAMM.

Sri Bhagavan clarifies further in Verse 44 of Sri AAMM:

Turn within and uninturruptedly see yourself with an introverted mind and it will be revealed, thus you told me, Oh, Arunachala!

Sri Bhagavan says in Verse 5 of Sri Arunachala Ashtakam, how the mind is used in the beginning.

....If like a gem that is cut and polished, the separate mind is whetted on the grindstone of the pure Universal Mind, it will
acquire the light of your grace and shine like a ruby, whose brightness is not flawed by any other object. When once the Sun
has fallen on a sensitive plate, will the plate register another picture? Apart from you O Aruna Hill, does any other thing
exist.

When the outward turning mind become inward turned, then it gets the Light of the Self and becomes Pure Mind, as Nagaraj
said in his earlier post. The Pure Mind is the Self.

So mind is employed only in the beginning, that is while questioning and thereafter it loses its role. Who am I? becomes an
answer less question once the Self is realized.

Arunachala Siva.             
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 20, 2012, 01:15:23 PM
Subramanian,
Do you practice Vichara?
You are saying:
"So mind is employed only in the beginning, that is while questioning and thereafter it loses its role. Who am I? becomes an
answer less question once the Self is realized."
Where is the question of 'Question' when the self is realized? :)
Self-Enquiry is done with the mind as are other forms of Sadhana.Sraddha or Diligence is also of the mind.Attention is also of the mind.Awareness is the nature of Self.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 20, 2012, 02:16:28 PM
Dear Ravi,

In the beginning as I told in my previous post, the question is asked by the miind.  There is no point in keeping on questioning
and getting answers of a variety. I am not the panchendriyas. I am not the prana, etc., etc,  Finally when the mind turns inward
there is only self attention, sraddha. There is no question. Sraddha needs only a continuous looking within. There is no mind.
There is no thought. When the inward turned courageous continues the self attention, the Self is realized.

Sri Bhagavan says: When camphor burns, no residue is left. The mind must be like the camphor. It must melt away and be wholly
consumed by the earnest resolve to find and be the real Self.  By this resolve the 'Who am I?' quest become efficacious. When 
the mind is thus consumed - where no trace of mind is left - it has become resolved into the Self."

I have been practicing since five months Who am I? Earlier I had been only praying and try to work out self surrender. Now
I am doing both. Both are complimentary to each other. They are the two sides of the same coin.

Sri Bhagavan says in Verse 69 of Sri AAMM:

poomana mAmanam pooraNa maNam kolap
pooraNa maNam aruL Arunachala.

My mind is now fragrant like a blossom.*  Add your perfect fragrance** to it and make it Infinite O Arunachala!       

* Sattva manas or Suddha manas. Only persons with Sattvic dispositions can proceed further.
** perfect fragrance is aruL. Grace. Without Grace, Self Inquiry cannot become successful.

Arunahcala Siva.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 20, 2012, 02:29:44 PM
Dear ravi, srkudai,

Read this wonderful portion from Talks No. 99:

A sannyasi asked:  It is said that the Self is beyond the mind and yet the realization is with the mind. Mano na manute, Manasa
na matam, and Manasivedamaptavayam - The Mind cannot think. It cannot be thought of by the mind and the mind alone can realize it.
How are these contradictions to be reconciled?

Maharshi: atman is realized with mruta manas (dead mind), i.e. the mind devoid of thoughts and turned inward. Then the mind
sees its own source and  becomes That. It is not as the subject perceiving an object.

When the room is dark a lamp is necessary to illumine and eyes to cognize objects. But when the Sun is risen there is no need
for a lamp, and the objects are seen; and to see the Sun, no lamp is necessary. It is enough if you turn your eyes towards the
self luminous sun.

Similarly with the mind. to see the objects the reflected light of the mind is necessary. (Mind gets the reflected light from Atma).
To  see the Heart it is enough that the mind is turned towards it. Then the mind loses itself and the Heart shines forth.

Arunachala Siva.       
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 20, 2012, 02:36:57 PM
Dear Ravi, srkudai,

Also see this from Talks No. 100:

Sri Bhagavan quoted from Kaivalya Navaneetam some verses and explained.

.........

The modes of mind take shape as external objects and the light reflected on the modes illumines the objects. Now neglecting
the modes of mind, look for the light illumining them. The mind becomes still and the light remains self shining. The undulating mind
(i.e. mind associated with rajas and tamas) commonly known as the mind. Devoid of rajas and tamas, it is pure and self shining.
This is Self Realization. That is why the mind is said to be the means of it.

.........
.........

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 20, 2012, 02:40:57 PM
Subramanian,
I do not practice 'Self Enquiry' ,yet I intuit what it means-It is not a 'question' at all.It just means simply staying with the 'I' feeling and rejecting every other movement of the mind by asking 'For whom is this movement?thus returning the attention to the 'I' feeling-In this way the mind comes to rest in the source of Being.The same is effected by Devotion as well .As long as there is the tendency of the mind to run away from the centre of Being ,there and then the attention is again and again brought to bear on the 'I' Feeling;This is to be diligently pursued until there is abidance(short term initially) and all this is carried out by the mind only.Other than the mind,there is no instrument to carry on sadhana.
Saranagathi cannot be Practised!When there is Love,there is spontaneous giving of oneself-this is saranagathi.
Here is an excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
Love and prayer
A BRAHMO DEVOTEE: "Sir, what is the way?"
MASTER: "Attachment to God, or, in other words, love for Him. And secondly, prayer."
BRAHMO DEVOTEE: "Which one is the way-love or prayer?"
MASTER: "First love, and then prayer."

How does one acquire 'Love'?Through association with the Great devotees.Love cannot be studied!There is no 'How' about it!One has to catch it like one catches cold by staying near someone who sneezes!
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 20, 2012, 02:41:17 PM
Dear Ravi, srkudai,

The following is the story of Sri Ramakrishna.  Perhaps he might have said that in some other context. But it is appropriate also
in respect of mind and Atmavichara.

A mother gives a list to her son for buying a few things, like a pound of fish, mustard oil, chilli powder etc., The son goes
to the bazaar and buys these things as per the list. Thereafter where is the need for the list given by mother? He is tearing
it off. It is no longer necessary.

Arunachala Siva. 
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 20, 2012, 02:51:07 PM
Dear Ravi,

As you say 'rejecting other movements' of mind is also a Vedantic practice, neti, neti....But however much the neti is done,
the asti cannot be found out. Neti should stop to find the Asti. Self Inquiry does not proceed with neti marga. Though Sri
Bhagavan said this in Who am I? to M. Pillai.

Regarding surrender, as you correctly said, it cannot proceed without love of god and prayers to Him, first for worldly
benefits and in due course, only to merge at His feet.  Love of god is the pre-requisite though I did not mention it before.
Surrender is practiced in the sense, constantly praying to Him and then telling simultaneously Nin ishtam, en ishtam. Your wish
is my wish. I have no separate wish to spell out. All that happens to me is your wish.

Arunachala Siva.
     
       
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 20, 2012, 02:57:55 PM
Subramanian,
Please return to the question-Is Self Enquiry done by the Mind?
Yes or No?
The answer is a categorical 'Yes'.All Sadhana has to employ the mind,there is no escaping this fundamental fact.

Coming to what Sri Ramakrishna said,this is what it is:
Mere study of scriptures is futile
The pundit had studied the Vedas and the other scriptures. He loved to discuss philosophy.
The Master, seated on the couch, cast his benign look on the pundit and gave him counsel
through parables.
MASTER (to the pundit): "There are many scriptures like the Vedas. But one cannot realize
God without austerity and spiritual discipline. 'God cannot be found in the six systems, the
Vedas, or the Tantra.'
"But one should learn the contents of the scriptures and then act according to their
injunctions. A man lost a letter. He couldn't remember where he had left it. He began to
search for it with a lamp. After two or three people had searched, the letter was at last
found. The message in the letter was: 'Please send us five seers of sandesh and a piece of
wearing-cloth.' The man read it and then threw the letter away. There was no further need
of it; now all he had to do was to buy the five seers of sandesh and the piece of cloth.
Reading, hearing, and seeing
"Better than reading is hearing, and better than hearing is seeing. One understands the
scriptures better by hearing them from the lips of the guru or of a holy man. Then one
doesn't have to think about their non-essential part.

Hanuman said: 'Brother, I don't know much about the phase of the moon or the position of
the stars. I just contemplate Rama.'
"But seeing is far better than hearing. Then all doubts disappear. It is true that many things
are recorded in the scriptures; but all these are useless without the direct realization of God,
without devotion to His Lotus Feet, without purity of heart. The almanac forecasts the
rainfall of the year. But not a drop of water will you get by squeezing the almanac. No, not
even one drop
.
"How long should one reason about the texts of the scriptures? So long as one does not
have direct realization of God. How long does the bee buzz about? As long as it is not
sitting on a flower. No sooner does it light on a flower and begin to sip honey than it keeps
quiet
."

What the Master is saying is to avoid 'proxy sadhana' through mere study and scholarship, and goads one to do actual sadhana.He never said that mind is not required for sadhana.He is asking the mind to walk the Talk.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 20, 2012, 03:10:22 PM
subramanian,
"As you say 'rejecting other movements' of mind is also a Vedantic practice, neti, neti....But however much the neti is done,
the asti cannot be found out."

Neti,Neti is to understand the impermanent as impermanent ,the fleeting as fleeting.It is this understanding that automatically rejects what has to be rejected.You cannot say that it is not effective.This is how Annamalai swami did his sadhana and I have atleast 10 letters from him recommending this. :)
In Self Enquiry ,the rejection is effected by turning the attention back to the 'I' feeling.In both the rejection of thoughts is involved.
If the Interest or love is there,rejection is automatic.This is so in ordinary life as well;If the Cricket match is being watched on TV all other things are rejected,including even Lunch!
This is how Sri Ramakrishna speaks about this:
"He who has developed such yoga can see God. In the theatre the audience remains
engaged in all kinds of conversation, about home, office, and school, till the curtain goes
up; but no sooner does it go up than all conversation comes to a stop, and the people watch
the play with fixed attention
.

Namaskar.

Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 20, 2012, 03:33:36 PM
Dear Ravi,

I do not agree with you. Mind is employed only in the beginning and thereafter it has no role.

See this passage from The Path of Ramana, Part I, by Sri Sadhu Om:

"What then is the practical method of doing Self Inquiry? Why is this term Self Inquiry found in the sastras?" Are we not
to scrutinize and find out? Let us do so.

There is a DIFFERENCE in the sense in which the term 'inquiry' is used by Sri Bhagavan and the way in which the term 'inquiry'
in which the sastras use it. The sastras advocate negating the five sheaths, namely the body, prana, mind, intellect and the
darkness of ignorance as 'not I, not I' (neti neti). But who is to negate them, and how? If the mind (or the intellect) is to negate
them, IT CAN AT BEST NEGATE ONLY THE INSENTIENT PHYSICAL BODY AND THE PRANA, which are objects seen by it. Beyond this,
how can the mind negate ITSELF, ITS OWN FORM? And when it cannot even negate itself, how can it negate the other two sheaths
viz., the intellect (vijnanamaya kosa and the darkness of ignorance (anandamaya kosa), which are beyond its range of perception?
During the time of inquiry, therefore, what more can the mind do to remain as Self except to repeat mentally, 'I am not the body,
I not this prana.'  From this it is clear, that inquiry is not a process of one thing inquiring about another thing. That is why the inquiry,
Who am I? taught by Sri Bhagavan should be taken to mean SELF ATTENTION (that is, merely to the first person, the feeling  'I'.

The nature of the mind is to attend always to things other than itself, that is, to know only the second and third persons. If the mind
in this way attends to a thing, it means that it is clinging, attaching itself, to that thing. ATTENTION ITSELF IS ATTACHMENT. Since
the mind is to think about the body and prana, -- though with the intention of deciding 'this is not, this is not' such attention is only
a means of becoming attached to them and it cannot be a means of negating them! This is what is experienced by any true aspirant                 
in his practice. Then what is the secret hidden in this?

Since, whether we know it or not, Self which is now wrongly considered by us to be unknown, is verily our Reality, the very
nature of our Supreme Self's attention itself is Grace (anugraha). This means that whatever thing we attend to, witness, observe,
or look at, that thing is nourished and will flourish, being blessed by Grace. Though one now thinks that one is an individual soul, since
one's own power of attention is in fact nothing but a reflection of the knowing power - Chit Sakti of Self, that on which it falls or is
fixed is nourished by Grace and flourishes more and more!

Hence, when the power of attention of the mind is directed more and more towards the second and third person objects, both the
strength (kriya bala) to attend to those objects of ignorance - the five sense knowledges in the form of thoughts about them - will grow more and more and will never subside.

That is why it is impossible for the mind to negate anything by thinking.  On the other hand if our Self's attention is directed only
towards ourself, our knowledge of existence alone is nourished, and since the mind is not attended to, it is deprived of its strength, the support of Grace. As they are not attended to, all the vasana seeds, whose nature is to rise stealthily and mischievously, have to stay quiet. And thus they dry up like seeds deprived of water. Then when the fire of Self Knowledge blazes forth, these tendencies become prey to it.

The ancient methods say, Drink the medicine without thinking of monkey! Sri Bhagavan says Drink the medicine as you think of
the elephant. He has thus reformed the ancient negative method by giving us the positive method - Who am I?

When sought within 'What is the place from which it rises as I, I (the ego or the mind) will die! This is Self Inquiry, Jnana vichara.

-Upadesa Undiyar verse 10.

Arunachala Siva.                     
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 20, 2012, 03:43:55 PM
R.Subramanian,
"I do not agree with you. Mind is employed only in the beginning and thereafter it has no role."

Please forget all quotations.What do you mean by Beginning?If the mind has no role,What else has any role?what happens to the Sadhana?Do you mean to say that sadhana stops?

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 20, 2012, 04:05:01 PM
Dear Ravi,

I mean that the mind is employed in the beginning, in the sense, that the Who am ? questioning is done by the mind. Many many times
unsuccessfully and finally successfully to go further beyond for which mind is no longer necessary.

Arunachala Siva.
 
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 20, 2012, 04:09:49 PM
Dear Ravi, srkudai,


Talks No. 253:

Devotee:  How is the mind to dive into the Heart?

Maharshi: The mind now sees itself diversified as the universe. If the diversity is not manifest it remains in its own essence.
That is the Heart. Entering the Heart means remaining without distractions.  The Heart is the only Reality. The mind is only
a transient phase. To remain as one's Self is to enter the Heart.

Arunachala Siva.   
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 20, 2012, 04:10:42 PM
Dear i,

kindly bear with my impertinence in both, your discussion. But, am just letting out my views in air. Who is the employer of mind, who uses the mind to commence self enquiry, is the mind different from you?

you are only the mind and you are only the self as well. there is no difference between, there is only one.

Just like how we call the same ___ as baby, child, youth, adult, old all is one and the same.

What is always is oneself, that oneself sports himself as mind and commences the quest, that very self, discerns there is no mind, and that very self also discerns there is mind as well. It is like this, the baby, child, youth, grown up as youth, old, saying there is no child, no youth, no old, and so on.

That which is discerning all these, is truly disinterested in all these, it itself, does not care so, if it is employing mind or no mind, and so on. It is basically not interested in names and terms that is attributed, it also rejects the term Self as well.

Just musings.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 20, 2012, 04:14:12 PM
Dear Nagaraj,

The employer of the mind is the Self. avananRi or aNuvum asaiyAthu. This mind should to true its Master, viz., the Self.
It should be with Him. It should attend to Him only. On the other hand, if it attends to the world, then it is impure. Pure
Mind attends to the employer and finally merges with the employer. That is why, at the beginning itself when you said,
Pure Mind is Self, I agreed.

Arunachala Siva. 
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 20, 2012, 04:18:04 PM
Subramanian,
"He has thus reformed the ancient negative method by giving us the positive method - Who am I?
Bhagavan never reformed anything.I have read sadhu om's book and found it Dogmatic!David also had mentioned this.What has worked for ages before Bhagavan's advent cannot be wished away!Have we tried this?That should be the yardstick ,not whether someone else has said that it will not work.
There is equal sense in what the traditional Vedanta advocates and this is something proven over the milleniums.
The Tirukkural also mentions this:
The Very First verse in 'Thuravu'(Renunciation says:
யாதனின் யாதனின் நீங்கியான் நோதல்
அதனின் அதனின் இலன்

This is how the Rejection happens-any thought is about something that one is attached to,something known only.One cannot think of the unknown.To the extent this Vairagya develops,the rejection power of the mind builds up until it is freed from all attachments and becomes steady.This steady mind is the Self.
This is what Sri Adi Sankara says in Bhaja Govindam:
Satsangathve nissangathvam
Nissangathve nirmohatvam
Nirmohatve Nischala Tatvam
Nischala Tatve Jivan Mukti.

No Self Enquiry is called for! :)

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 20, 2012, 04:24:06 PM
Dear Ravi, Nagaraj, srkudai,

A few verses from Atma Vichara Padigam of Sri Sadhu Om:-

1. Thinking is a mentation (vritti); being  is not  a mentation!  If inquired 'Who thinks?' thinking will come to an end. Even when
thoughts do not exist, do you not exist? To remain thus in the source of thoughts is the state of Self abidance (atma nishta).
Be thus.

2. He who thinks is the individual soul, Jiva. He who IS is the Supreme Brahman. If the thinker thinks with great love of That
which is STILL, this thought, the love to BE, will become the thought free state which kills all thoughts, to remain surviving him
is the union with the Supreme - Siva Sayujyam.       

3. The reason why this 'I' dies when inquired into, 'What am I?' is as follows:  This thought 'I' is a reflected ray of the Self.
And it alone is directly connected with the Self. Whereas other thoughts are not. So when the attention goes deeper and deeper
the ray 'I', its length decreases more and more and when the ray 'I' dies that which  shines as 'I' is Jnana.

Arunachala Siva.
\   
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 20, 2012, 04:28:36 PM
Dear i,

i actually find, both of you right, seeing from each others eyes.

Infact, when you said the following:

Quote
The employer of the mind is the Self, avananRi or aNuvum asaiyAthu.

there is really no ignorance at all :) do you see this paradox? the Self is revealed, already, ever illumining! without your, ones own will, one cannot even commence self enquiry.

Next again, when you mentioned:

Quote
This mind should to true its Master, viz., the Self. It should be with Him. It should attend to Him only.

After the above, previous discernment, how can oneself attend to oneself,  how can oneself be with oneself, because, one already is, by default, yet again paradox of Truth! :)

Next, when you mentioned:

Quote
On the other hand, if it attends to the world, then it is impure. Pure Mind attends to the employer and finally merges with the employer. That is why, at the beginning itself when you said, Pure Mind is Self, I agreed.

Dear i, let me present yet another paradox of truth here. firstly we all observed very glaringly - The employer of the mind is the Self, avananRi or aNuvum asaiyAthu. Now, can that Self, all knowing, which itself employs Self Enquiry to know itself, can it ever get impure? What a brilliant paradox, Dear i :) do you appreciate this glaring truth? The Self which is all knowing, which employs some method to know itself is meaningless :)

i just cannot be, from appreciating the play of the Self, there is no ignorance at all! One need not even try to "just be" "Summa Iruthal" one is by default Self.

What is truly required is nothing. All the accumulated knowledge, experience and suffering of mankind is inside of us. we must build a huge bonfire within us and end it, just like killing a person in a dream. Both the husband (knowledge) And the wife (ignorance) lose their lives When each cuts off the other’s head.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 20, 2012, 04:40:52 PM
Subramanian,
Is Mind to be employed in Self-Enquiry?Digressions do not help to squarely answer this question.However much we may bring theory to the contrary,we cannot escape facts. :)
This is what Sri Bhagavan states:The mind will only subside by means of the enquiry 'Who am I?' The thought 'Who am I?', destroying all other thoughts, will itself be finally destroyed like the stick used for stirring the funeral pyre.

It is amply clear that until this final destruction(and not just in the Begining!),the mind(as the thought 'who am I ') is deployed only.We may not like to agree and that is okay. :)

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 20, 2012, 04:57:46 PM
Subramanian/Nagaraj/Friends,
"avananRi or aNuvum asaiyAthu"(Without him not an atom moves)

AvanaRi Or anu eDhu? :)(Where is the Atom apart from him, that it should move with his will!)

So,if we consider the mind,i.e the 'embodied state' as separate,until we resolve this ,sadhana has to continue and Mind has to be deployed,until the state of seeming seperation is resolved into the whole.

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 20, 2012, 05:03:49 PM
"avananRi or aNuvum asaiyAthu"(Without him not an atom moves)

AvanaRi Or anu eDhu? :)(Where is the Atom apart from him, that it should move with his will!)

So,if we consider the mind,i.e the 'embodied state' as separate,until we resolve this ,sadhana has to continue and Mind has to be deployed,until the state of seeming seperation is resolved into the whole.

Dear i,

:D am enjoying this, only He Himself has to move and He Himself has to remain still, for Himself, by Himself.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 20, 2012, 05:08:08 PM
:D and moreover, where can That move? Where is space for Space to move?

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 20, 2012, 05:12:39 PM
Dear Ravi,

The destruction of the thought Who am I?  finally destroys itself as the stick that burns after the corpse is burnt. I agree.
But here it means that Who am I? question continues. Yes. I agree. The Who am I? question should become answerless.
When it becomes answerless, the Self is attended to and the Self reveals Itself. In other words, as soon as the Who am
I? question stops, the mind has no more work there. Because the Self reveals Itself. That is why it takes a longer time for
some one to experience the Self and for some others it takes shorter time.  This presupposes other things like suddha manas
about which there is no discussion at all.

Coming to the dogmatism of Sri Sadhu Om, every devotee of Sri Bhagavan were dogmatic in some way. Lakshmana Sarma
re-wrote Sad Darsanam, where according to Nochur, meaning and purport were sacrificed for the sake of poetic purity.
The same incident is reported in a different way by different devotees. Sri Annamalai Swami says by the Heart to Heart talk
of Sri Bhagavan with Somerset Maugham, the writer got enlightened. Sri Chadwick poohs poohs this statement. He says
that Maugham was relieved of his travel weariness by the kindness of Sri Bhagavan in visiting him in his room.

Coming to Annamalai Swami, I do not know what exactly he wrote to you in his 10 letters, but if we take Final Talks as the authority
of his views, Annamalai Swami says:

Q: Why does the mind always go outwards instead of inwards?

A.S. Because we don't ask the question, 'Why does the mind go outwards instead of inwards?  This question arises because the
nature of happiness is not properly understood. People are always looking for it in the wrong places and by doing the wrong
activities.  You begin with the impression, which is really misunderstanding, that happiness is something  that can be found
outside. And furthermore, that you have to do something or go somewhere to reach it. This is your illusion. And it is your belief
in this illusion that makes the mind search for happiness in the outside world.     

Even when you are told Happiness is within you as your own Self, LOOK INWARDS AND FIND IT, still you think that you have to
do something or go somewhere to discover it. This is the power of Maya.

When you are not aware that your glasses are resting on your nose, you may look for them all day, thinking that they are lost.
As a consequence, you believe that they are an object to be found. Eventually you were wearing them all the time.

Here the availability of glasses are only by ATTENTION ON THE NOSE. Not by thinking that glasses are on my nose. No thinking
is necessary to find the glasses. Only ATTENTION TOWARDS THE NOSE IS NECESSARY.

Finally as a post script for all these discussions:

Final Talks:

Q:   Does the mind die gradually or suddenly?

Annamalai Swami: One answer is: When the sun rises, does the darkness disappear suddenly or gradually?

Sri Bhagavan, speaking on this topic, once remarked: 'Someone mistakes a rope hanging in the darkness for a snake. He then
asks: How many years it will take for the snake to die?

This is a better answer, adds David:

If the mind does not exist, it cannot die either quickly or slowly!

Upadesa Undiyar:

manathin uruvai maRavAthu usAva
  manam ena onRilai undhipara
mArgam ner Arkum ithu undhipara.

When unceasingly the mind
scans its own form
there is nothing of the kind.
For everyone
this path direct is open.

At one stage, it seems to me,  we are all discussing whether barren woman's child is fair complexioned or dark.

Om Sri Ramanarpanamastu.

Arunachala Siva.             
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 20, 2012, 05:14:19 PM
Dear Ravi and Nagaraj,

That is why Sri Bhagavan corrected this proverb:

avananRi asaiyAthu!

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 20, 2012, 05:23:11 PM
अणोरणीयान् महतो महीयानात्मा गुहायां निहितोSस्य जन्तो:। तमक्रतुं पश्यति वीतशाको धातु: प्रसादान्महिमानमीशम्।

anor aniyan mahato mahiyan atma Guhayaayam nihitoasya Jantoh tamakratuh pasyati vita-soko dhatuh prasadan mahimanamisham

The infinite Self more minute than the minutest and greater than the greatest and is the heart of the beings. He who, free of self desires, realises That, from which, originates everything, sees That, and is freed from all sorrows.

Mahanarayana Upanishad (Section 12, 1)

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 20, 2012, 05:47:55 PM
Subramanian,
"The Who am I? question should become answerless.
When it becomes answerless, the Self is attended to and the Self reveals Itself"

What do you mean that 'self is attended to'?What is the self that you are alluding to?

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 20, 2012, 05:55:56 PM
Subramanian,
"The Who am I? question should become answerless"
Where is the 'Become' part of it?What was the answer expected when the question is not there.
One needs to see who the seeming 'I' (embodied ,limited 'i').It is this that is 'mind' or 'self'(not Self!).When one sees it by attending to it,like a thief who comes under scrutiny,the 'i' is supposed to disappear. :)
until the disappearance of the 'i' or the mind,self enquiry is to be continued.After this,it is only Self abidance.
This is my understanding as to how self-enquiry(not Self-enquiry!)works.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 20, 2012, 05:59:00 PM
Nagaraj,
"moreover, where can That move? Where is space for Space to move?"
That is why it is Arunachala' :)
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 20, 2012, 06:04:38 PM
Dear Ravi,

By the phrase 'the Self is to be attended to', I meant attention towards the Self. Attention is not a thought.

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 20, 2012, 06:06:44 PM
Dear Ravi,

Who am I should become answerless - By this I meant the question is left behind since the Self-attention has started.
It is like throwing away the chit given by mother when things have been purchased by the son and the work completed.

Arunachala Siva.
 
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 20, 2012, 06:12:52 PM
subramanian,
"I meant attention towards the Self. Attention is not a thought"
If attention is not a thought,then it should be possible to do it in sleep.Is this correct?
Attention is also a thought.
it is the self and not Self that is being enquired into(No Question and No answer)
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 20, 2012, 06:22:58 PM
the questions themselves are truly not there, and moreover, Not looking for answers, but ending of questions is the important thing. The questions are the first problems.

i read somewhere this wonderful statement "you are lost because you are searching"

The Self is searching and hence is lost. questions are thoughts, and, thoughts arise from wants, want has arised to know thyself, like Jnaneshwar says, the Self sports itself as ignorance and knowledge, darkness and light, so long the Self wishes, wills. "Leela kluptha brahmanda mandala - She (Self) who creates the different universes by simple play", "Leela Vinodhini - She (Self) who loves to play" -  Lalita Sahasranaamam.

Without inference of knowledge, nothing can be looked at.

There is truly no looking something, without the inferance of knowledge

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 20, 2012, 06:31:58 PM
These line of discernment puts one on a hot iron plank, one cannot stand upon, there is no escape at all!

the more one tries to be that, one is actually going farther away from it. The paradoxical problem here is that in order to stop 'doing something' we are doing something else, really :D

Even trying to "Just be" is corrupting the Self, is making the Self impure.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 20, 2012, 06:39:02 PM
Dear i,

i have one more discernment to share, the more we are trying to put attention on the Self, that much more we are actually away from it.

"Attention" How can Self Attention be possible? And immediately if i now say to myself, yes, i have to "just be" thats all, then what is "just being", these are the problems, the immediately following questions, discernment are the problems. What do i do? the very moment, i asked "what to do?" i have thrown a question out, for which i need to seek an answer.

      (          )

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 21, 2012, 01:08:03 AM
Dear friends,
the real truth for me is that everything from the beginning to the end of every topic and comment in this forum and from "discovering" of Advaita to this day, hour and second is the Mind. Mind is just the Self, colored by some dye. Mind is not different from the Self. And how could It be when It is the Self!

People say the Self has no attributes but does the Mind have? No! Self is the waveless Ocean! Mind is the Ocean with waves! Isn't the Ocean what It is with or without waves? Even what I said that "Mind is colored Self" is not true because can the waves color or change the Ocean? Mind is illusion but not because It is not Real but because what It is is not permanent. It is like sand passing through our fingers. Ocean is what It is with and without waves. So we are what we are no matter if we call ourselves the Self or Mind. Actually every categorization of what we are is the Mind. Sri Nagarajji has said it very well:

Quote
Even trying to "Just be" is corrupting the Self, is making the Self impure.

The beautiful excepts which Sri Ravi has extracted from the Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna tell us the same. According to Sri Ramakrishna you cannot define or say what God is. You cannot say He is formless or with form; nameless or with Name; dual or nondual. God, the Self is what It/He IS! We just must BE THAT! But our problem is that we alway are looking at the waves, not the Ocean. When we look at the waves we become disappointed because we say "Oh, no, this wave changed its form! Oh, no, it disappeared, died". But when we know that these waves are actually just the Ocean then everything change. "O, there were no waves, It was just the Ocean playing with Itself".

I totally agree that intellectual understanding of Atma-vichara is of extreme importance. And this is why I appreciate this forum very very much. But we must stop deluding ourselves that Self-inquiry is something very special or superior. Self-inquiry is just surrender begun with our thoughts and Saranagathi is just surrender started by our emotional part of the mind. Actually both of the are the same. They are after surrendering of our little illusory "i" to our real "I". The Goal is realizing that they are one and the same! Everything is the Self. Actually there is no paths, methods or whatever but that doesn't mean that the different methods and paths are pointless. The dream "I" need "dream food". Let never forget that!

The real problem is not the waves in the ocean but why we identify ourselves with one wave but not with entire Ocean?
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 21, 2012, 07:18:04 AM
Ramana,
Wonderful post from you!This is the point.Most persons are doing self-enquiry ,not because it is the only thing to be done,i.e their inner need ,but it is the 'ultimate' thing to be done!; what is dear is all  that matters and not what is ultimate.Sri Bhagavan says clearly that what can be dearer than the self!If approached this way,it is one form of devotion.
Sadhana is an inner urge which cannot be rationalized.However humble that inner urge is ,if one proceeds with that one will be guided.Eventually all the sadhanas converge in 'I do not know.I am open and keen to receive the Truth' attitude.When this need is deeply felt,the Divine or God Responds.
This is how Sri Ramakrishna puts it:
"The grace of God falls alike on all His children, learned and illiterate―whoever longs for
Him. The father has the same love for all his children. Suppose a father has five children.
One calls him 'Baba', some 'Ba', and some 'Pa'. These last cannot pronounce the whole
word. Does the father love those who address him as 'Baba' more than those who call him
'Pa'? The father knows that these last are simply too young to say 'Baba' correctly."
It does not matter what our path is as long as we have deep love and earnestness.It is this that is paramount and not what path one pursues.
Again sri Ramakrishna says:
"One should have faith in the holy name given by the guru and with it practise spiritual
discipline. It is said that the pearl oyster makes itself ready for the rain that falls when the
star Svati is in the ascendant. Taking a drop of that rain, it dives into the fathomless depths
of the ocean and remains there until the pearl is formed."
Just 'one drop' -one seed idea,one relationship that God is our mother,our father,our self-whatever it be-Just deepen this and live it.This is all required.Sadhana is only this.In course of time it will mature into Love and Wisdom.

Namaskar.


 
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 21, 2012, 07:38:23 AM
subramanian,
you were referring to the final talks of annamalai swami and saying that it can be taken as authority!What is authority!?Perhaps you meant definitive.Did anyone ask annamalai swami-'swami,please show me the way'?If someone had asked then perhaps Swami would have advised suitably.Most people come with just 'Thoughts' and they will return carrying 'more thoughts'.One gets what one wants!
This is the refrain that swami wrote in each of his letters to me:
தேகம் நான் என்ற எண்ணம் தான் 21 நரகம்.தேகம் நானல்ல .எண்ணங்கள் நானல்ல.ஆத்மாவே நான் .அதுவே எல்லாம்.

'I am the Body' thought is the 21 hells.Body ,I am not;Thought,I am not;Atma am I;That is All'
Swami asked me to write this over and over again.I wrote a letter back where I had written just this over and over again.Swami was immensely delighted.
This is the way Swami practiced and attained self Realization.He did not practice 'self-enquiry'!This is the traditional advaita vedanta way.Surely this is quite an effective way if done with understanding and conviction.

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 21, 2012, 07:46:18 AM
Dear i,

And God fulfils Himself in many ways,
 Lest one good custom should corrupt the world.

    - A Tennyson

Quote
The real problem is not the waves in the ocean but why we identify ourselves with one wave but not with entire Ocean?

Dear i, is the waves different from ocean, after the dawn of knowledge, there is nothing to identify with really.

One may gather a handful of ripples,
But it is only water in the hand. (Jnaneshwar)

The moment we separate waves from ocean, the Self has begin to play, yet again, to re discover itself once again.

There is no identification, still, what ever one identifies with, is but the Self itself. The Self has nothing else to identify with, but Its Self!

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 21, 2012, 07:50:22 AM
தேகம் நான் என்ற எண்ணம் தான் 21 நரகம்.தேகம் நானல்ல .எண்ணங்கள் நானல்ல.ஆத்மாவே நான் .அதுவே எல்லாம்.
'I am the Body' thought is the 21 hells.Body ,I am not;Thought,I am not;Atma am I;That is All'
Swami asked me to write this over and over again.I wrote a letter back where I had written just this over and over again.Swami was immensely delighted.

Dear i,

Have you had discussions with Annamalai Swami? Could you please share glimpses of your meeting with Sri Annamalai Swami? at leisure? and your meetings with other direct devotees? if any?

Thank you.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 21, 2012, 07:59:32 AM
WRT Authority,

“Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.”

 - Buddha

And, the only aim of Buddha, here, is to awaken the discerning seeds with each and every one. Perhaps, expressions such as these, have made Buddha as though he was against Vedas.

Q. "Buddha is said to have ignored questions about God."

Ramana Maharshi: "Yes, and for this he has been called an agnostic. In fact, Buddha was more concerned with leading the seeker to Bliss here and now, rather than with academic speculations about God and so forth." (talks)

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 21, 2012, 08:36:11 AM
Nagaraj,
I am copying what I posted in David's Blog in July 2008.May be this will interest you.
I am eagerly looking forward to seeing Sri Annamalai Swami through that video!This is a great boon for all who have been fortunate in having met this this great guru bhakta!The word 'great' seems to be bombastic and out of place whenever we talk about this utterly simple and unassuming person!It brings to my mind's eye how he used to bring out his simple mat from the inner room and spread it out for us to sit!
Just want to share one concrete treasure that he gave me and which is kept in my Pooja shrine.This is a small trapezoidal rock that he gave to me.Before giving it he briefed me that he found these 2 rock pieces(He gave one to me and one to my B-in-Law)by the side of Arunachala and divined some attraction power(Akarshana shakti  is the word he used)in these."can pooja be performed to this?"-he asked.It was a momentous decision for me!I am not given to things like pooja!All the same I did not want to jeopardise my chance of securing the rare TREASURE by .I quickly asked him -"Is Lalitha Sahasranamam okay?(I just banked on my wife!She does this chanting!This came in handy.!)Swami replied "Yes.That is okay" and gave me this treasure of Arunachala.He gave the other piece to my B-in-Law which he has kept in his pooja room(in USA).
Same way,I got your book-Living by the words of Bhagavan (I was addressing david in this post-ravi)as a compliment from swami with his autograph.This book ,I gave to one of my acquaintance and he is yet to return it back!The last time when I reminded him,he said that it is perhaps bundled along with other books and has reached some inaccessible nook in his loft!"Can't we buy another copy"was his very helpful suggestion!I told him that there is something in that earlier copy that cannot be bought!He has promised to retrieve this copy back.(It is still not returned to me.I bought another book. :)-ravi,may 21,2012!)

more later....
namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 21, 2012, 08:50:33 AM
Dear i,

really wonderful to read your memories.

long before, when i was still new to Arunachala, i was just so fascinated by the Hill, that i wanted to take with me some nice small stone as a remembrance, with may be some ideas, as that i could worship that stone, the Hill had cast some spell, some impression from within. Then, i remembered the sayings of elders that one should not take anything from Siva temple, and i remembered those words - Sivan Sothu Kula Naasam, :D so, i pacified myself, and kept quiet. The very next visit, when i went to Arunachala, i went up to Skandasramam,, and one person, had made Arunahala Hill replicate, and he himself approached me to buy it for some money. I immediately bought it and have it in our Puja room :)

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 21, 2012, 09:38:30 AM
Dear Ravi,

Nice to see your post on Annamalai Swami and his presentation of rock pieces of Annamalai to you.  I have not seen Annamalai
Swami. However David's book Final Talks is a good collection of his conversations with devotees.  Earlier I had a Tamizh book
titled Sri Ramana NinaivugaL where Annamalai Swami has written about his conversations with Sri Bhagavan. Two anecdotes
I shall give.

1. Once Sri Bhagavan wanted A.S to copy the small book ellAm onRe and read it every day. Due to busy work A.S. could not
copy it himself. Sri Bhagavan copied that book and gave hand written copy to him!
What a treasure.

2. Once Sri A.S. asked Sri Bhagavan: Whether even those who have been quite near to God or Guru could make mistakes and
accumulate sins?  Sri Bhagavan answered: Why not? That is possible. See Jaya and Vijaya who were the guardians of Maha
Vishnu's abode. Did they not commit a sin by preventing Sanaka and others from entering Vishnu's abode?

(Sri Bhagavan's words came true in the case of Perumal Swami! Once Perumal Swami has even held the vomit of Sri Bhagavan,
when He had some indigestion, on his palm. Such a person changed later.)   

I write this out of memory. The actual words may be different. I am not able to find out the book immediately.

Once I got a small piece of rock from a stranger, stating that it was from the Hill. He asked for Rs 20. I bought it.
This rock piece was somewhere misplaced now. I did not keep it in puja room as Ravi had done. However, I wrote in
David's blog about it stating whether there is any difference in Brahman, small or big?
       
       
Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 21, 2012, 02:04:13 PM
All dear friends,
yes, the mind must be disciplined and we must follow Guru's advices. But I want to add something more. Our mind must be like that of the children. Children's mind is hungry for knowledge. They accept everything you tell them. Their mind is pure, devoid of anger, passion, intrigues, greed or lust. They want to know what the Reality is. We must be like the children and listen carefully the words of our Father (God, Guru).

Glory to the children! Blessed they be!
(http://s2.hubimg.com/u/1016977_f496.jpg)
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 21, 2012, 02:29:59 PM
Dear Ramana,

Yes. Sri Bhagavan has been described by many devotees as one with child-like personality. It is not childish personality.
His smile, His talk were always simple and childlike. Sri Bhagavan once said: The child and the Jnani are one and the same.
The only difference is that the child still holds vasanas (built in, not yet out) and ignorance, whereas a Jnani does not have.

Saint Manikkavachagar calls himself as a child of Siva in many places in Tiruvachakam. He says: thAyAi mulaiyaith tharuvone,
thAradhu ozhinthAl chavalaiyAi, nAyen kazhinthu poveno?..... O Lord, who gives his breasts to this child, if you don't give
I shall suffer like a chavalai baby. (Anndamalai, Verse 5).

Chavalai baby is one who is born within say, 18 months of the earlier baby (in olden days). Now the first baby wants milk and
the younger baby also wants milk. What shall the mother do?  The saint says he is one like that!         

Devaraja Mudaliar used to call himself as Ramana Sey, i.e. Sri Ramana's baby!

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 21, 2012, 02:57:43 PM
Dear Subramanian ji,
        :) Reminds me of the Annamalai Swami CD you sent me ! Its precious really! I was very much benefited by it. :)
Though any number of thanks wont be sufficient for that wonderful gift :)  -- Thank you.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 21, 2012, 03:06:08 PM
Dear srkudai,

I remember that. In fact when I came to Hyderabad for my son's first deepavali with his inlaws (for which we were also invited),
I tried to locate your place but could not succeed. Thereafter, I visited  Ramana Kendramu in Tilak Nagar and also Skandagiri
Subrahmanya Temple. It was in Oct-November 2010. The weather was quite unfriendly with intermittent rains.

Arunachala Siva. 
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 21, 2012, 03:28:27 PM
:) it would have been nice to meet ! Please do ping me when you come next time to hyd, we can talk for a while.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 21, 2012, 03:43:06 PM
Dear srkudai,

Yes. I shall definitely do.

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 21, 2012, 04:30:45 PM
What should be our attitude toward desires and mental objects? Should we escape or satisfy them? Is there any benefic if a person wants something, can have it but reject it? Some say yes. Some say no. I will say my opinion and will be happy if I know your too.

Let say that you have decided to exclude some foods of your diet, e.g. ice cream. If you want to eat ice cream very eagerly right now and you always think about it and it is time you have planned to "do" your sadhana should you satisfy your craving? This craving makes you restless and nervous. Which is more "damaging" for this person - to break his/her rule to not eat ice cream or to do it and then to continue his/her sadhana? My experience is that suppressing desires doesn't do much good. But sometimes it is very necessary. This creates much confusion. What is best for person?
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: sanjaya_ganesh on May 21, 2012, 04:38:09 PM
Dear Ramana

I would agree with you that an intense craving should not be stopped abruptly. Such violent methods will not lead us the right way. In my mind, this is like how you tame a wild horse. Following is what I have heard on taming it. First they put a ring fence around some 2 acre land and let it run wild there for few days. Then they reduce the circumference to one acre and let it run wild within that. Then it is slowly reduced each time giving the wild horse some time to get accustomed to the lesser area it can run. Finally you reduce the fence to a short area and then slowly try to mount it. First stand near it. Then touch it and finally you will be able to mount it without the horse kicking you off. Instead of this, if we try to mount it the first day - it may even kill you in one kick.

-Sanjay
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 21, 2012, 05:02:56 PM
Dear i,

Would it make good, first, if we look into this question, as to, why desires are harmful?

We have built a "Taboo" on desires unknowingly. Therefore, first, looking into why any desire is harmful, and, in what way, can desires be impediment to jnana?

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 21, 2012, 06:10:56 PM
Quote
Would it make good, first, if we look into this question, as to, why desires are harmful?

We have built a "Taboo" on desires unknowingly. Therefore, first, looking into why any desire is harmful, and, in what way, can desires be impediment to jnana?

Yes, Sri Nagarajji. That would be very beneficial. Tasting the objects of our desires is called different in different religions and philosophies - pain, suffering, sin, death and so on. Desire is harmful because it is like a weed. If you satisfy it it would give seeds and even more "baby-desires" will grow up so the weed will survive in time. Desire is the food for the ego. It is also its poison because it kills it at least as phenomenon we call "death". Desire just means action with attachment. When action is done without attachment then this action is not harmful. Action actually means not only physical action but even mentally because all actions are truly product of the action of the mind. So what is more proper, at least for the beginner - to try to do what the body and mind to do but trying to not be attached? Or to shun any "wrong activity" which is generated in the mind? But isn't every activity with attachment (no matter how we would define it - good or bad, holly or unholly) again attachment? And how could we escape the great obstacle - the desire for liberation? Very difficult theme for me.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 21, 2012, 06:36:28 PM
Dear i,

Basically, i discern this, that, we desire, to be happy. This is fundamental and certain fact. We seek happiness, from something else only because, we are currently unhappy the way we are, or, there is some sense of incompleteness, which we try to fill it by various means - wealth, men/woman, children and so on. And, it is also seen, very evidently, that, these are not making us complete, simply because they are quickly emptied, or we need to keep re fueling, again and again, by seeking more from the desired object.

This is plainly because, we have not yet (if i am allowed to use the word) "Tasted" the bliss of Self. Desires are like dreams really, we cannot destroy them or control them, for any attempt to do so, only means to aspiring to control the "Seen" which is not real - as we have seen already, how only the Seer alone is Real.

In order to be fully free of desires, what i discern is that, here again, we need to experience the Seer, that we are, the 'i' that we are. There is a requirement, yet again, to intellectually discern the bliss of Self, so as to discern that the bliss of Self is far superior to the other desires, only then, as one Self is dear to one Self, the Self reposes as Self as bliss.

What is the way to experience the bliss of Self? the only possible way is to discern, is to See, the Seer, and see for ourselves. At this very moment, this does seem like "is it really possible??" but this is the only way, i discern. One has to constantly See the Self by reposing as Self and then contemplate comparing this experience of reposing as Self with that of other experiences derived from objects. The more we do this sincerely, i feel, surely discern, will end the ajnana that desries of objects are superior to the bliss of Self.

Renouncing is not an Act, but it in involuntary, on the dawn of absolute Jnana. Renouncing desires is really the result of dawn of True Jnana. One cannot renounce, for renouncing is genuinely not possible, because, truly there is nothing to renounce, for, how can a dream be renounced? only by waking, and there is no other way!

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 21, 2012, 06:45:27 PM
Dear Ramana, sanjaya_ganesh,

Any desire or craving for a particular item, be it food item or even items like cigarettes, tobacco, drinks etc., should be left
in one shot and not by gradual reduction. It is impossible, at least in my experience to stop anything slowly, step by step.

When once my father told me (he was an acute diabetic) that I should stop my sugar items including sugar in coffee or tea
soon. I stopped it when I crossed 40 suddenly on a particular day. Today, I cannot have coffee or tea with sugar. In functions,
like marriages when they serve sugar delicacies, I take on my leaf but I do not taste it even a bit. Even in Asramam, I just
touch with one finger items like payasam and taste it as Guru Ramana Prasadam and then leave the rest. It is more than
a decade that I had tasted the ice creams and Cadbury chocolates.

Even on festival days at home, when my wife prepares paysam etc, I do not take it.

I have found people not able to stop smoking cigarettes slowly reducing one by one.  People who have abruptly stopped it
have succeeded.

Arunachala Siva.   
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 21, 2012, 07:08:57 PM
Dear i,

Fundamentally, i would like to correct my views from my last post.

There is no question of desire for one who has truly see the Self, convincingly. No desires can haunt such a one, for such a one, who is only One, where is the other to Desire truly?

Therefore, Dear i, i discern, now, to focus all attention only on That one alone, and i discern it as needless to find how one may overcome desires.

The Self Alone is.

Such doubts arises only when we move away from the center of discernment that we arrived yesterday. i discern here, that this question is redundant -

What should be our attitude toward desires and mental objects? Should we escape or satisfy them? Is there any benefic if a person wants something, can have it but reject it? Some say yes. Some say no. I will say my opinion and will be happy if I know your too.

Let say that you have decided to exclude some foods of your diet, e.g. ice cream. If you want to eat ice cream very eagerly right now and you always think about it and it is time you have planned to "do" your sadhana should you satisfy your craving? This craving makes you restless and nervous. Which is more "damaging" for this person - to break his/her rule to not eat ice cream or to do it and then to continue his/her sadhana? My experience is that suppressing desires doesn't do much good. But sometimes it is very necessary. This creates much confusion. What is best for person?

There is no Confusion, as Self. i just go back to my intellectual discernment.

The Seer alone is, if only 'seen' truly exists, does this question can even arise.

.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 21, 2012, 07:13:20 PM
From that Center, there is nothing to fear. no falling down. Such a one can never do anything that would not befit the Self. from this center, i discern, the question that is being discussed presently about desires is something, that is of future, and trying to plan what we can do to prevent it. which is illusion!

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 21, 2012, 07:25:31 PM
Ok, I ask personally, what you do when desire pops up? For example if today is Mahashivaratri and you must not eat how could you prevent this desire? You may say that the body needs for. Ok. But one day without food is not problem for the body. So the problem is not the physical needs but more psychological. Or if you have not done sex much time is your prostate gland is fool of semen how could you prevent it and follow so prescribed celibate lifestyle. I think these examples are important for all spiritual seekers, no matter of their religion and philosophy.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 21, 2012, 07:38:18 PM
Dear i,

there is a direct inference from what i have written - the only way is to seek the self and repose as Self. All other ways to overcome desires are only temporary!

What is required is to take further the intellectual discernment into Atma Nishta. In that process, ups and downs are bound to happen, but a true Dhira (Steadfast sadhaka) doesn't stop, doesn't judge, and look around, and ponder, how to stop it the next time, rather he gets up and continues to try without looking back and keeps focus on the goal, by which ever Sadhana he may be inclined to, to remain steadfast with the intellectual discernment.

Prostrations to Bhagavan


Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 21, 2012, 07:42:53 PM
According to some legend an emperor when he was jailed after a bad defeat, observed a spider spinning a web, trying to make a connection from one area of the cave's roof to another. Each time the spider failed, it began again until it succeeded. Inspired by this, the emperor returned to inflict a series of defeats on the English, thus winning him more supporters and eventual victory.

"if at first you don't succeed, try try again."

We should always remember this watching the spider make its attempt seven times, succeeding on the eighth try!

Point to note is that the Spider's effort on all 7 occassions were made with utter sincerity and maximum effort!

Like how Lord says in Gita Uddharet Atmanaatmanam - the Self is both your friend (Devas) and your enemy (Asuras). When your find yourself being pulled by your own bad self (Asuras), you have to pull yourself(Devas) back again to poise.

Once the intellectual discernment is strong and convincing, one can never fall down, therefore, one has to simply get up and move on, each time he is bound to fall. There is no looking back for such a one, no sins attach to him!

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 21, 2012, 07:50:50 PM
Discerning yet again, that even this moment when we are trying to discern about how to overcome desires, it is only about the past and future, both of which are not true - now!

Therefore our discernment here is like believing, we could either go back to past or get into the future and try to over come the desires by any way that we discern!

This moment, this moment, now, there is neither past or future, the moment we begin to think, it is past already! Be Still and know that I am God. Nishta, Abidance, constant striving for that Abidance of that perfect intellectual understanding is the only way of salvation.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 21, 2012, 07:55:05 PM
Dear i,

For an illusive impediment, proper intellectual discernment itself would suffice to kill the illusion. Kill the illusion by illusive knowledge. For Being the Self requires no effort on our part. All effort is to only discern all that is Not Self. Each time, some impediment comes about, it is to be chopped off with sharp knife of discernment.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 21, 2012, 08:02:40 PM
Dear i,

would we eat some more food after we have just had a nice full meal? In the same way, once it dawns, even intellectually, the truth, one would recognize the true purport of fasting on Maha Shivarathri day, such a blemish-less pure one would no longer think about Mahashivarathri day as some exclusive day, for he discerns all day is the same, all time is same, all are same. and if semen has to come out, let it come, what matters to such a pure one? if it comes involuntarily due to the said reasons of prostate gland, let it do its job. the body is functioning perfectly, allow it to function, and remain, for such a one knows, he is That, in which presence all these are happening, he remains untouched.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 22, 2012, 07:52:35 AM
Ramana,
you have raised a very important aspect that every earnest aspirant should understand and negotiate:
"So the problem is not the physical needs but more psychological. Or if you have not done sex much time is your prostate gland is full of semen how could you prevent it and follow so prescribed celibate lifestyle."

Denying the problem obviously does not help, accepting the problem also does not help!So,how do we approach this?
Unless we approach life wholistically,understand its complexity,acknowledge it in all aspects-physical,social,ethical,intellectual,spiritual;unless we do this we cannot live it fully.
This is a vast subject and what Dharma is all about.Dharma is not a simple list of 'Dos and Don'ts'.What is a 'Do' will become a 'Don't' for the same person at a different point in time or for a different person at the same point in time.
This is the rationale behind the Varna and ashrama dharma -that they aid the  individual to live to his fullest potential and not as a xerox copy of some contrived concepts.
For the moment,i do not have time to fully go into this subject-I will recommend a simple and modest book called -'Spiritual Practice';While in college,I read this book published by Sri Ramakrishna mutt.The Author was an anonymous 'Ananda'!Later on I was given to understand that it was Swami Ashokananda,one of the Disciples of Swami Brahmananda(Spiritual son of Sri Ramakrishna and First president of the Ramakrishna Mutt and Mission).
Please read this book and it gives wonderful hints on almost all aspects of spiritual living.
Please download it from :
http://www.estudantedavedanta.net/spiritual%20practice.pdf (http://www.estudantedavedanta.net/spiritual%20practice.pdf)

This is how the Introduction runs:
When, first the beauty of spiritual life dawns on our vision, our reaction to it is preeminently
emotional. We then lack understanding, we do not know the bearings of the
path that leads to the spiritual goal - we are moved by an impulse. But very soon we feel
the want of clear knowledge. Doubts assail us and we yearn to know the why and the
wherefore of things. He who writes these words was one who felt the same need. He
remembers the days of his difficulties, and believes that if he undertakes a discussion of
the preliminary stages and conditions of practical religion, he will be doing a service,
however meager and imperfect it may be.
The writer wishes it to be clearly understood that in all he has said I the following pages,
he lays no claim to infallibility
(This is the mark of an earnest one!-Ravi). He has written as he has understood. And he has
communicated his knowledge even as a traveler speaks of his experiences of the way -
however ill-perceived and ill-conceived - to others traveling along the same path. He
claims nothing more
.

Namaskar.

Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 22, 2012, 08:10:54 AM
Just gathered what Sri Bhagavan had to say in this topic:

D.: How to root out sexual impulse?
M.: By rooting out the false idea of the body being Self. There is no
sex in the Self.
D.: How to realise it?
M.: Because you think you are the body, you see another as the body. Difference in sex arises.

(talks 170)

D.: How will the sexual impulse cease to be?
M.: When differentiation ceases.
D.: How can it be effected?
M.: The other sex and its relation are only mental concepts. The Upanishad says that all are dear because the Self is beloved of all. One’s happiness is within; the love is of the Self only. It is only within; do not think it to be without: then differentiation ceases to operate.

(Talks 335)

‘A’ was once badly distracted by sexual thoughts. He fought against them. He fasted three days and prayed to God so that he might be free from such thoughts. Finally, he decided to ask Sri Bhagavan about it.

Sri Bhagavan listened to him and remained silent for about two minutes. Then He said: Well, the thoughts distracted you and you fought against them. That is good. Why do you continue to think of them now? Whenever such thoughts arise, consider to whom they arise and they will flee away from you.

(Talks 545)

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 22, 2012, 08:49:16 AM
Ramana/Nagaraj/friends,
Sri Bhagavan is indeed pointing out that Body consciousness is at the root of all problems.Yet,if that can be dispensed with,one will realize Truth.Nothing more is required.It is only to root out 'I am the Body' consciousness that Sadhana is practised .Unless sexual impulses are mastered(which is what we are discussing)there is very little possibility of dropping the 'I am the Body' idea.
There are two sides to sadhana -aspiration and rejection.Both go hand in hand and nothing works alone.Aspiration aids rejection and rejection aids aspiration.
In a way Sri Bhagavan's response is begging the question and is insufficient from the questioner's point of view.All the same,it would have sown a seed which in course of time will bear its fruit.No doubt about it. :)
Life is too complex(whether we acknowledge or not!)to be reduced to simplistic solutions.Suggestions can come from others but living has to be done by oneself.
No one, however Great, can solve our problems.we have to learn from others but onus is on us to find our way.

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 22, 2012, 09:11:24 AM
Dear i,

yes, it is only to root out 'i am the body' consciousness that sadhana is practiced.

i just want to add here, that this quest of rooting out the body ought to be properly understood. i feel, that, generally there is a lack of proper discernment of question itself ie. rooting out body consciousness. We have to be clear that what this question aims to result is rooting out the singular identification where as one is universal.

It is like believing, one is just the "eyes"alone and all other organs such as the ears, nose, limbs, various organs such as heart liver, bones, as not Oneself.

One is collectively the entire body, and WRT quest of Reality, One is entire Universe, oneself, what is seen is the Seer Himself, One whole Self without a second.

Therefore, when it is said repeatedly in Ramana literature and other saints as well when they say free from body consciousness, it implies to free oneself from imagining oneself as just the eyes alone, and realise that one is whole body and not just the eyes that see alone, in the same way, one is the Whole Self, without a second.

The Heart is used in the Vedas and the scriptures to denote the place whence the notion ‘I’ springs. Does it spring only from the fleshy ball? It springs within us somewhere right in the middle of our being. The ‘I’ has no location. Everything is the Self. There is nothing but that. So the Heart must be said to be the entire body of ourselves and of the entire universe, conceived as ‘I’. But to help the practiser (abhyasi) we have to indicate a definite part of the Universe, or of the Body. So this Heart is pointed out as the seat of the Self. But in truth we are everywhere, we are all that is, and there is nothing else.

(Talks 29)

And how does one limit oneself by just eyes in one body, how does the Self become limited -

the One Reality is the Self from whom has sprung the ego which contains within itself the seeds of predispositions acquired in previous births. The Self illumines the ego, the predispositions and also the gross senses, whereupon the predispositions appear to the senses to have materialised as the universe, and become perceptible to the ego, the reflection of the Self. The ego identifies itself with the body, and so loses sight of the Self and the result of this inadvertence is dark ignorance and the misery of the present life. The fact of the ego rising from the Self and forgetting it, is birth.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 22, 2012, 09:25:46 AM
Nagaraj,
"rooting out body consciousness"-It is the sense of 'i' that everyone feels and is limited by.No need for any learned understanding.
self-enquiry examines this limited sense that everyone has by turning the attention on this 'limited sense' and finding out if it stands such a relentless scrutiny.
No description of 'Body consciousness' is required.All descriptions and analogies cannot substitute for the Raw sense of 'I' that the most rustic one among us feels and acts by.What the absence of 'Body consciousness ' is like is what you are trying to speculate! That is needless.self enquiry is designed to avoid precisely this speculation. :)
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 22, 2012, 09:33:58 AM
Dear i,

yes, you are right, and, it is in the same sense, it is discerned that it is equally needless to speculate on rooting out desires as well, what is truly required in "Self Enquiry itself, which will root out what ever needs to be rooted on way.

That, from which light, it is discerned, the sense of 'i' that feels limited, is itself not limited. In this way, it is purely pratyaksham, ones own anubhuti, that true Self, from which this limited feeling has arised.

Improvising from Jnaneshwar expressions, when the clouds hide the Sun, it is again from the light of Sun only, that we even are able to see that the clouds are hiding the Sun.

In the same way, the feeling of limitlessness is also illumined only because of ones own light.

That which discerns Ignorance, can that be ignorant itself?

There is no ignorance. nothing need be done. IF THIS BE PROPERLY DISCERNED

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 22, 2012, 09:41:01 AM
nagaraj,
"needless to speculate on rooting out desires as well"
This is not speculation for as long as one is moved by desires one needs to find a way to handle it.It is immediate and urgent.It is a 'do' or 'Not do' dilemma.Theories do not help.One is then not thinking about rooting out desire but to get rid of it :)
Here we cannot live on borrowed thoughts,however noble or however rational.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 22, 2012, 09:56:10 AM
Dear i,

agreed, Now, when such a person has begun to feel dismayed at himself because of succumbing to desires, such a one in whom feelings disgust with his succumbing to desires, has arisen, he has already begun to free himself from it, that very instance he starts to feel disgust. what is wisdom here is to direct or channelise this wisdom errupted as disgust in the right direction.

that one ought to reflect whether he wants mere controlling of desires or completely free himself of desire, with the ultimate aim of Jnana, he ought to reflect that His God or Self is the One that can help him truly freed from this, and not his own way of handling it. It dawns very clearly that what is more immediate and more urgent than handling any desires is to reflect within, or which ever sadhana one may be acquainted with. That is the wise way. One cannot control desires, for they are bound to reappear. This is the direct way.

It is purely choosing God or Self at all instances of trouble over one self, over one own way of handling anything!

this is my discernment. this has only helped me all through in all spheres at various instances.



just sharing in right spirit, handling of desires, is appropriate for one who aspires for mere de-addiction who is not in quest for Jnana. This does not holds good for one who is in quest for Jnana. For one who is in quest for Jnana, only the pure weapon of proper discernment by any which way he has been following, ones own Guru Sampradaya is the medicine.

this is the subtle difference, i wished to point out.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 22, 2012, 10:33:50 AM
Nagaraj,
"Now, when such a person has begun to feel dismayed at himself,etc".
First let us understand what to do;then we may think of handling feelings of guilt.We are currently discussing 'What to Do'.
If we go through that book ,Spiritual Practice  all the aspects that go into deciding 'What To do' are discussed.No single size fits all.Each one has to find a solution for his immediate problem.This is applicable for all,pursuers of jnana or ajnana-All those who 'pursue' :)
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 22, 2012, 10:43:55 AM
Well, there are two aspects to managing desires:
a) What to do when desires arise.
b) What to do with the "Roots" of the desire.

:) Like a room full of water. if i come home to see that my room is full of rain water. i need to know two things:
1) how to drain it out.
2) what leaked it in and how to block them.

Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 22, 2012, 10:51:53 AM
Dear i,

WRT to "What to Do" i discern as follows -

What ever i am saying is applicable for one who is in genuine quest for truth. therefore, what i say may not be generalized for everybody.

For such a Dhira, whose only aim is realisation alone, when he is faced with any desires, if he can exercise restraint with sanity, it is well and good, if one cannot exercise restraint, allow what happens to happen, there is no point in exercising restraint when ones sanity and bodily organs, the prostrate glads have their duty to perform. let such a one exercise wisdom so as to not cause harm to anybody else, or which could bring himself to trouble . In this spirit, let such a one, commence reflection thereafter, with conviction and affirmation, not to repeat it. It is clear, the goal is Self reflection, all sin is only in the mind, let mind not delve in restraint and guilt, no sin attracts the pure self, hence, such a one who is unable to exercise restraint, may resume his enquiry thereafter, with sincerity and caution, to not allow oneself, situations that could bring him back to same predicament. It is all dependent on ones intensity or longing for Freedom. As Bhagavan says, not to continue to think of them thereafter. Whenever such thoughts arise, consider to whom they arise and they will flee away from you. and not allow any possibilities to build up to the extant of being unable to exercise resraint with sanity!

We need to discern that Desires themselves are not sin, there is no bigger sin than feeling guilty.

Let such a one console and elevate oneself by affirming, Deham Naham,Koham Soham, as one is not the doer. It is far better to be done with what ever the desire rather than mentally masturbate for long times and making the physiological body to suffer on account of ones of rules of morality!

But, having said this, if one goes on to take this as a reason each time, such a one automatically falls. It only goes to prove his intensity and longing for realisation falls short to his satiating desires.

Hindu Dharma, provides place for such a one to GET MARRIED AND RESUME HIS QUEST parallelally.

Prosrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 22, 2012, 11:19:51 AM
Dear srkudai,  Ravi, Nagaraj,

I am of the view that the desires are of two types:

1. Desires of instinctive nature. Like sexual desires, desire to drink water, eat and to procreate. Desire to go to sleep.

2. Desires acquired of availability of desire-fulfilling objects in the world. The cigarettes, drinks, tobacco, sweets, ice creams,
chocolates etc., These are the products from the world. Because of the availability, desires arise. Before Vasco da gama
came to India there were no tobacco plants. Ice creams have been the discovery only for the past one hundred years.
Chocolates are also of the same age. All these products in the world produce the desires. Some fifty or sixty years back,
Indians first started using snuff. Then came the tobacco flakes, which were being used along with betal leaves, areca nuts and
chunam. Cigarattes came into use much larter. Another discovery which is quite harmful is pani puri. This pani puri made in homes
are healthy. But those sold on roadsides are really harmful though not habit forming.

The first type of desires were not prohibited. Even ascetics on their own voluntary disposition abstained from married life and sex.

The second type are really harmful.

While the first type is very difficult for most of people to leave. The second type can be left with vairagya.


Arunachala Siva.           
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 22, 2012, 11:20:44 AM
Dear i,

The Vaidika Dharma path is absolutely Wholesome. most of us are not that acquainted with the Vedic Mantras, the veda Suktas. If one is able to seek the essence of many of these mantras, one will become familiar with it all.

The Vaidhika Maarga allows space for every kind of people, There is this Trisuparna Mantram, which i remember this instant, which says, upon chanting this mantras in the said manner, one even gets absolved from various sins, such as Brahma Hatya (killing), Bhruna Hathya (killing of fetus), Adultery, and many other sins. There are so many mantras which suggest ways of freeing oneself from any guilt one can imagine! All sins already committed can be cleansed by prayaschittam. The Shruti lays importance to only what is in had now! Do not spoil this Now by building buildings of desires so as to being unable to exercise restraint.

There is this beautiful concept called Praayschittam. Every year, What is this Avani Avittam all about? it is to cleanse oneself from all possible sins one may have committed knowingly or unknowingly.

I have seen one 100 year old book on avani avitam Maha Sankalpam and was shocked to read passages such as comitting adultery with women, related otherwise, etc.. and so many other things... so it goes to prove, that seers who conceived of these nithya karmas have thought very well so as to enable one to free oneself from the grip of desires. What sankalpa we do today is only minimal, owing to busy and blind minds. no spirit whatsoever! Those days, Maha Sankalpas iself was in pages!

It is said, if for 1 month, if one chants Gayatri mantra near a river or any holy place, one will be complete absolved of all sins. Even Girivalam, Arunachala Mahatyam, i have heard in Suki SIivams pravchanam, where he says, if one does girivalam with complete faith, he is pure that very moment, but only he has to not repeat bad karmas again.

If we look at Apasthamba Sutras, there are rules for brahmacharis, if a brahmachari looks at a woman in bad manner, he has to immediately do certain thoousand number of gayatris in order to free himself of succumbing to seeing a woman in wrong manner.

butm these days, when people dont have faith in Vedas itself, how can one hope to improve? in the name of jnana and other talk, people dont even do sandhyavandanam. Sandhyavandama has mantras to daily consciously, maintain sanity, one has to go through the meanings of mantras,

one seeks cleansing and forgiveness every day 3 times a day for committing any sins through mouth, mind soul, anger, and through those organs as well - "sishna"

True discernment is very essential.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 22, 2012, 11:28:09 AM
Nagaraj/Friends,
There are genuine seekers among householders and Renunciants.Also Sexual desire is something that has to be handled by both.Even such an exalted being like Sri Ramakrishna had experienced the attack!Here is an excerpt from The Gospel of sri Ramakrishna:
"Is it an easy matter to get rid of lust? I myself felt a queer sensation in my heart six
months after I had begun my spiritual practice. Then I threw myself on the ground under a
tree and wept bitterly. I said to the Divine Mother, 'Mother, if it comes to that, I shall
certainly cut my throat with a knife!'

(To the devotees) "If the mind is free from 'woman and gold', then what else can obstruct a
man? He enjoys then only the Bliss of Brahman.
"

It happened to Annamalai Swami as well and when he approached sri Bhagavan he was made to stand on a hot rock by Bhagavan!No 'self enquiry' was resorted to!

What we are discussing is this-There may be many who would like to pursue the life of a celibate.These must evaluate the Strength and Frequency of these attacks and need to decide whether they arre better off by getting married and legitimately enjoy sex in a disciplined manner.This is one sure way of overcoming the sexual instinct if it proves too strong otherwise.
One general guideline for householders is to go through the desire slowly so that one is aware of every moment of it.This is tantra sex and is a very effective way for sublimating the sex desire.Sri Ramakrishna permitted this for householder disciples.
On the other hand if it is an occasional attack,it can be handled in a firm way and with each rejection the strength and frequency will decline and over a period of time it will be no longer a problem that it once was.

Most often,it has been the most ardent aspirants who had faced the brunt of these attacks like Arunagiri Nathar,Thayumanavar and other great ones-and some of these were householders as well!

The Book 'Spiritual Practice' gives  very fine guidance for one and all.

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 22, 2012, 11:44:31 AM
Dear i,

in Shankara Digvijayam, when Shankara debated with Mandana Mishra, and when Mandana Mishra conceived his defeat, Ubhaya Bharati, his wife, who was judge, did not finally declare Shankara as winner, she asked Shankara, this very pertinant question, is Advaita, union with Brahman, more blissful than "Kama" for which Shankara did not have an immediate answer, he had to discern it out and finally prove to Ubhaya Bharati that Brahman was the ultimate bliss, even superior to the kama pleasures.

One ought to discern, for ultimate release.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 22, 2012, 11:51:11 AM
It happened to Annamalai Swami as well and when he approached sri Bhagavan he was made to stand on a hot rock by Bhagavan!No 'self enquiry' was resorted to!

Dear i,

nice post. yes, all the great saints have had to face this great question. that is why there is a saying, Nadi Moolam Rishi Moolam Kerrkakudadu - one should never question the source of a river and a rishi.

Self enquiry is subtly is only discernment. Thelivu. Even in Annamalai Swami also, a subtle Self enquiry did happen, as a matter of fact, every sadhana is subtly Self Enquiry itself or we can say, Self enquiry is subtly every other Sadhana itself (any which way). Why one does self enquiry? only to attain clarity, what is the true intention of any sadhana, it is only to attain clarity. only that sadhana is called in different names. all paths lead to the same clarity.

What happened was that when Annamalai Swami's foot began to suffer because of heat, all his attention was thus shifted from lust thoughts to this heat sensation. This is the discernment. How the desires lose hold when faced with extreme shifts. one can use this as an aid as well. those days, i remember some devotee, whenever he got angry at something he would right away go do girivalam. in same way, when one is attacked with any such intense cravings, may be one should get up and start waling where ever he is and assume as though he is doing girivalam.

one has to find his way in overcoming desires.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 22, 2012, 12:58:46 PM
:) Again Two things:
a) What did Annamalai swami do when he was in grip of desire.
b) What made sure that the desire never reappeared ? :)

Always both things have to be taken care of.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 22, 2012, 01:02:03 PM
Dear Nagaraj,

Yes. Sandha vandhana chanting says that 'I may have done in the day or in the night many many  sins, with my penis etc.,
And there is a prayaschittam!

This prayaschittam business is a foolish concept. One would do prayaschittam and continue to do the same sin.
In genuine commitment of 'sins', the true prayschittam is seeking forgiveness from God and ABSTAINING FROM DOING
THE SAME 'SIN'.

We see in puranas, Chandra did mischief with his own Guru's wife. And Chandra did praysachittam. What nonsense!
Such stories would be embarassing when a non Hindu asks questions about it.

Arunachala Siva.     
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 22, 2012, 01:05:57 PM
Dear srkudai,

Annamalai Swami himself felt anguish for such a desire appearing in his mind.  Added to that Sri Bhagavan made him sit on a hot
brick for two hours.  (I do not remember whether he confessed to Sri Bhagavan or Sri Bhagavan Himself knew it and gave the
'punishment'.)


Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 22, 2012, 04:46:29 PM
Yes. Sandha vandhana chanting says that 'I may have done in the day or in the night many many  sins, with my penis etc.,
And there is a prayaschittam!

This prayaschittam business is a foolish concept. One would do prayaschittam and continue to do the same sin.
In genuine commitment of 'sins', the true prayschittam is seeking forgiveness from God and ABSTAINING FROM DOING
THE SAME 'SIN'.

We see in puranas, Chandra did mischief with his own Guru's wife. And Chandra did praysachittam. What nonsense!
Such stories would be embarassing when a non Hindu asks questions about it.

Dear i,

this may be your belief. However, there is much more to these than how simply you have seen it! i think it is really needless for me to try and explain all these. the Mantras are a voice for themselves!

we need not be ashamed or embarrassing with anybody, the puranas can stand on their own. It is only lack of our understanding that needs to be looked within. Not what Chandra did!

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 22, 2012, 06:17:58 PM
Dear Nagaraj,

While chanting some mantras, there is a sentence, - please forgive me for achara heenam (inadequacy of purity), kriya heenam
(inadequacy of doing the chanting properly, with kara nyasam, anga nyasam etc.,) and bhakti heenam (without devotion, a mindless
chanting of mantras).  This is quite fine. These inadequacies are there for every one of us and it should be forgiven, one can ask.

But prayaschittam - somehow I am not able to digest. Still I feel a correct prayaschittam is only to seek forgiveness of the deity
and then not to repeat the sins for which forgiveness has been sought.

Arunachala Siva.   
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 22, 2012, 06:25:37 PM
Yes repeating the sin is more or less a compulsive obsessive disorder. :)

With regards desires & mind management, what I was trying to express was that there are always two things to do.
when already infactuated by a desire, how to manage it. For example someone hurt, and that hurt
is deep within and that arises again and again to haunt the person. how to manage this.
this is one aspect of management of mind.

Another aspect of management of mind is , when one is hurt --- what allowed the hurt to be possible?
Can I insulate myself from the hurt ?

A holistic approach to management involves both these aspects. And its intensely practical. One cannot
have a theoretical idea about this.

Sex for example is not a sin. But adultery is. Someone may ask "When its with consent, why do we call it a sin", its so because its adharmic. Adharmic means when one does it, one gets "Deeper" into samsara and gets drowned. All Adharma has to be shunned.

Though sex is not a sin, sex too is a strong mental desire. Physically what happens, happens. But mentally one needs to be able to manage this! A spiritual sadhaka, especially, should maintain certain regulations and should exercise complete control. Thats a must. If this is not done, then it becomes a big hurdle.

Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 22, 2012, 06:34:03 PM
if I remember it correctly, Sharada mata said that if one chants 21 malas of mantra every day, the mind automatically comes into total control. I think its time for us to try.
Mantra has to be chanted with understanding. Because mananat trayate iti mantrah, that which saves upon mananam ... not upon repeating.
For example "OM" is well explained in vedanta.
OM NAMah Sivaya ... Namah ... na-mama ... not me! no me! only Siva ... And OM is THAT. When one meditates that, the mantra has  a special significance and it becomes a manana sadhana.

Or Arunachala Siva ... Aruna - Achala. Achala is mountain, coz its motionless. And Aruna -- Bright light or Fire. And That Aruna-Achala is Siva :Pure. Pure means what ? what is pure milk ? its unmixed with anything else. It alone IS. that Siva, which is Light [ie, Awareness] and achala, motionless, STill. Thats the mantra. Repeating it continuously and meditating by being that Awareness ... thats Wonderful aid.

in final talks, at one place, Annamalai swami says that this kind of japa is very high sadhana.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 22, 2012, 08:50:49 PM
All dear friends,
the first impediment, even greater than the sin itself, for me, is the feel of guilt. Guilt makes people powerless and weak. You cannot progress in your sadhana without first to remove your feel of guilt. Guilt is wide separation from the Self, much wider than the desire for food, money or sex. One of the deep psychological causes for turn to religion is the desire God to discharge you from this destructive feeling. For evidence you can take Christianity and see how destructive spiritually it was during the centuries and even to this day. That is because so call christian preachers sow the seed of guilt and self-imperfection and their followers sink lower and lower and lower. That's why I always escape to use the word 'sin' because it brings very 'guilt-giving' connotations.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 22, 2012, 09:11:59 PM
Ramana,
What you say is indeed valid.Here is an excerpt from The Gospel Of Sri Ramakrishna:
"Once someone gave me a book of the Christians. I asked him to read it to me. It talked
about nothing but sin. (To Keshab) Sin is the only thing one hears of at your Brahmo
Samaj, too. The wretch who constantly says, 'I am bound, I am bound' only succeeds in
being bound. He who says day and night, 'I am a sinner, I am a sinner' verily becomes a
sinner.

Redeeming power of faith
"One should have such burning faith in God that one can say: 'What? I have repeated the
name of God, and can sin still cling to me? How can I be a sinner any more? How can I be
in bondage any more?
'
"If a man repeats the name of God, his body, mind, and everything become pure. Why
should one talk only about sin and hell, and such things? Say but once, 'O Lord, I have
undoubtedly done wicked things, but I won't repeat them.' And have faith in His name."
Sri Ramakrishna became intoxicated with divine love and sang:
If only I can pass away repeating Durga's name,
How canst Thou then, O Blessed One,
Withhold from me deliverance,
Wretched though I may be? . . .
Master's prayer
Then he said: "To my Divine Mother I prayed only for pure love. I offered flowers at Her
Lotus Feet and prayed to Her: 'Mother, here is Thy virtue, here is Thy vice. Take them both
and grant me only pure love for Thee. Here is Thy knowledge, here is Thy ignorance. Take
them both and grant me only pure love for Thee. Here is Thy purity, here is Thy impurity.
Take them both, Mother, and grant me only pure love for Thee. Here is Thy dharma, here is
Thy adharma. Take them both, Mother, and grant me only pure love for Thee.'

Ramana,I have posted a link to the pdf copy of 'Spiritual Practice'.I recommend this.you may like to check it.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 23, 2012, 09:51:50 AM

Yes. Sri Bhagavan has also said that 'it is only for one who thinks he is bound, there is bondage and (yearning) for liberation.'
(Ulladu Narpadu, Verse 39).

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 23, 2012, 10:51:30 AM
Dear, Sri Ravi, thank you for this book. I really appreciate it!

Dear all, today I meditated about the attitude of the mind is how important it is. And I also analyzed the thinking and attitude of Lord Ramana's students. I found a some kind of self-deception. I will explain why. Almost all of Sri Ramana's devotees always repeat "I am nothing. I can do nothing. All is predestined." But what have I found? When they must shun from something they like they say "Oh, this is my destiny. I must do it". When some problem appears then again their attitude is "Oh, I am helpless. Why should I do anything when I have not any power. All is predestined." This way of thinking in my opinion is far away from Lord Ramana's teachings. All His devotees repeat like a broken gramophone His saying: "The Ordainer controls the fate of souls in accordance with their prarabdhakarma (destiny to be worked out in this life, resulting from the balance-sheet of actions in past lives). Whatever is destined not to happen will not happen, try as you may. Whatever is destined to happen will happen, do what you may to prevent it. This is certain. The best course, therefore, is to remain silent." The question is what that means and why the Lord has said it. Is it said because it is the ultimate truth or because this is best attitude of the mind to train it to surrender completely. I think it is the second. In my own word Lord Ramana has said: "Surrender to the Lord and transfer all your burdens to Him. Accept that all that happens is according to His Will and stop the doership. This way one day you will lose the illusion of separate existence and you will realize the Self". People use this sentence of the Lord like sectarian view similar to religious dogmatists. This sentence is prescription forthe way to Saranagathi. I don't see alternative for bhaktas who want union with God. Losing responsibility for your own life leads to losing of the "I-thought" and eventually bhakta "becomes" non-exitent and the Pure existence remains. God is not Person outside you. He is your own Self, remember? So interpeting that some God outside you commands your life is just creating new illusion according to Lord Ramana's teachings.

Glory to Lord Ramana!
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 24, 2012, 06:41:41 AM
Friends,
An Excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
The Master talked with M. - now standing, now pacing up and down the long verandah.
MASTER: "A little spiritual discipline is necessary in order to know what lies within."
M: "Is it necessary to practise discipline all through life?"
MASTER: "No. But one must be up and doing in the beginning. After that one need not
work hard. The helmsman stands up and clutches the rudder firmly as long as the boat is
passing through waves, storms, high wind, or around the curves of a river; but he relaxes
after steering through them. As soon as the boat passes the curves and the helmsman feels a
favourable wind, he sits comfortably and just touches the rudder. Next he prepares to unfurl
the sail and gets ready for a smoke
. Likewise, the aspirant enjoys peace and calm after
passing the waves and storms of 'woman and gold'.


Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 24, 2012, 07:54:38 AM
மீகாமன் இல்லாமல் மாகாற் றலைகலம்
ஆகாமற் காத்தருள் அருணாசலா
(79)

Miikaamannn Illaamal Maakaarr Rralaikalam
Aakaamarr Kaattarull Arunnaacalaa

In the ocean of samsara the ship of life will be wrecked
unless it is steered by the helmsman, the I (தான் , taan - Self)

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 24, 2012, 10:41:21 AM
Dear all, what I wanted to say is that the Mind always tries to maintain Itself, the Duality, even in very refined form. We say "I will do Self-inquiry but I will continue to live my the life at tha same manner". We put Self-inquiry or whatever method we have chosen on the second place. Mind always concocts excuses and attaches to philosophies which suit It. The Mind doesn't want to destroy Itself. The Mind survives even when we have come to only 'I, I' state. So how to destroy It? Do we need? How to destroy something which is basically non-existent? We cannot destroy the Mind and we don't need to. The only thing that is needed is to always be the Self. When you are always the Self what is the problem if the Mind is there or not? When the illusion that the Mind something other than the Self colapses how could the Mind troubles you?

Glory to Lord Ramana!
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 24, 2012, 10:50:56 AM
Dear i,

i discern, this question will remain so long, the enquirer sees itself as different from mind.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 24, 2012, 10:59:38 AM
And there is another thing that troubles me. Do we really want to 'destroy' Maya? Don't we use Self-inquiry or Surrender as temporary relief and something like anti-stress technique? Have any of you meditated on this matter?
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: sanjaya_ganesh on May 24, 2012, 11:04:25 AM
Quote
Do we really want to 'destroy' Maya?


In my mind, any "want" will not to let you stay in the being. Including the "want" to destroy maya? And - on a lighter note - what is "we" here. If it is - we , the ego - it can no way "destroy" maya - as it is by itself maya :)

-Sanjay
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 24, 2012, 11:20:00 AM
Dear i,

there is one beautiful story as told by Sri Bhagavan: Once two persons were sleeping in a hall. Both were poor. During the sleep, one man was dreaming. He dreamt that he is a very rich person and he has stacked all the gold and currency in a cupboard. And a thief comes and takes away all the gold and currency, and runs away. The dreaming man shouts in shock: "O! the thief is running away with all my wealth, Please catch him, please catch him...." The other man woke up. He was not dreaming anything, neither the thief, nor the gold and currency. What shall he do? Will he run out to the front yard to catch the thief? Will he rush to the police station to complain? He will simply wake that wailing man from sleep and dream.

Self Enquiry or any other Sadhana, or any other way that one practices, is only to discern the truth alone, the practice of sadhana itself is nothing. The moment the Clarity has been seen, there is no more requirement of any sadhana.

It is like taking all precautions in trying to figure all about the ghost was seen, but there after practice of Vichara or any sadhana, one discerns that there is no ghost and after all it is just a light post or something.

One realises basically, there is nothing to destroy or even discover. He simply reposes knowing thus.

One may use any sadhana for temporary relief, one may use even Self Enquiry for temporary relief, but it is certain that it is just temporary relief, and therefore, slowly, one gets disgusted with such temporary relief, when such disgust raises, Vairagya results, and one aspires, and dedicates his whole to sort out the matter, no matter what, to find out the truth of it all.

I discern, there are 2 kinds of Sadhakas, Dear i, one who are devoted, but the thirst for realisation is not upto mark, they are just content with daily prayers and and aware that they have to attain liberation, but they do not do anything consciously at the moment, for they realise they want to enjoy the phenomenon world, they want to enjoy relationships, they want to enjoy family, luxury, so on, in a right way. But there is another kind of sadhaka, whose only waking purpose is to attain liberation, and all else is only secondary to him, no matter he may be in worldly life and operating and fulfilling his duties properly, he does not relish or have attachment to anything. His only aim is to attain liberation alone. Such a one truly realises very soon.

The first kind of sadhaka may use Self Enquiry as a temporary relief, but the second kind of devotee uses Self enquiry or any sadhana for realisation alone. This is the subtle difference, he is not bothered about temporary pains and temporary dukhas or sufferings. He realises that imagining Mayas as Maya is the greatest Maya.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: sanjaya_ganesh on May 24, 2012, 11:22:08 AM
Quote
The first kind of sadhaka may use Self Enquiry as a temporary relief, but the second kind of devotee uses Self enquiry or any sadhana for realisation alone. This is the subtle difference, he is not bothered about temporary pains and temporary dukhas or sufferings. He realises that imagining Mayas as Maya is the greatest Maya.

Very well said. Any "imagination" is a trap :).

-Sanjay
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 24, 2012, 11:29:26 AM
There is another problem which is difficult to be solved intellectually. By Self-inquiry we are looking for the ego. But how can I find something which is non-existent? Isn't Self-inquiry something like thoughtless meditation, e.g. trying to stay in thoughtless 'state'?
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: sanjaya_ganesh on May 24, 2012, 11:35:45 AM
Quote
There is another problem which is difficult to be solved intellectually. By Self-inquiry we are looking for the ego. But how can I find something which is non-existent? Isn't Self-inquiry something like thoughtless meditation, e.g. trying to stay in thoughtless 'state'?


Ramana - In my mind, it is best to go back to the basic scriptures for these rather than interpretations by anyone - whoever it is and however great that person is. Upanishads and Bhagavatha has a common answer written all over directly and indirectly as we all know. Creation starts when "Sankalpa" originates in the Supreme Brahman. So any Sankalpa is creation which is Maya in supreme. So it is obviously a very simple logic that when Sankalpa (thoughts) stop, creations must stop - which in other words means no more births.  An ego created thoughtless state may not be same as a sankalpa-less state.

-Sanjay
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 24, 2012, 11:38:09 AM
There is another problem which is difficult to be solved intellectually. By Self-inquiry we are looking for the ego. But how can I find something which is non-existent? Isn't Self-inquiry something like thoughtless meditation, e.g. trying to stay in thoughtless 'state'?

Dear i,

this is the million dolar question. :) but secret is that, one is asked to conduct Self Enquiry only to quieten the asking mind. The mind, will never subside unless it is given an unsolvable puzzle, and by it, it attains concentration, by which all other thoughts are stopped in a natural way, no suppression, purely directly.

As it searches, searches, searches, facing all sorts of confusion and repeated questioning here and there, trying to seek more and more answers, it realises, eventually, that no answers are helping in its search.

It therefore realises that there is NO SELF TO DISCOVER, other than itself - that which is itself searching!

The Self has nothing to do with thoughts, whether there are thoughts are no thoughts are irrelevant.

Sri Bhagavan says: That which makes the enquiry is the ego. The `I' about which the enquiry is made is also the ego. As the result of the enquiry the ego ceases to exist and only the Self is found to exist.

Here, english translation says "the ego ceases to exist and only the Self is found to exist." but i am sure this is not the original tamil equivalent word ("found") as there is no finding, as the ego, now realises, itself as Self, for by this time it has refined and all the Malas, doshas have disappeared because of repeated practice of Self Enquiry.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 24, 2012, 11:41:56 AM
Dear sanjaya_ganesh,

What is Maya? It is indescribable.  How can one destroy that which one cannot itself describe? It is like a dream. Why for
someone dreams occur in sleep? You cannot even describe how the dreams occur. Then how to destroy them and sleep a
dreamless sleep everyday?  One cannot destroy the Maya. One can however transcend Maya. When a dog sleeps on the road,
you cannot destroy the dog to walk further.  You can only walk past it either by jumping over it or taking a path without
stamping on it.

See this beautiful conversation of Maharshi in Talks:

Devotee: They say that Sakti creates the world. Is the knowledge of unreality due to the unveiling of Maya?

Maharshi: All admit Sakti's creation. What is the nature of the Creatrix? It can only be in conformity with the nature of
creation. The Creatrix is of the same nature as Her creation.

Devotee: Are there degrees of illusion?

Maharshi: Illusion is itself illusory. Illusion must be seen by one beyond  it. Can such a seer be subject to illusion? Can
he then speak of degrees of illusion?

There are scenes floating on the screen in a cinema show. Fire appears to burn buildings to ashes. Water seems to wreck
vessels. But the screen on which the pictures are projected remain unscorched and dry. Why?

Because the pictures are unreal and the screen is real.

Change your angle of vision to one of Jnana and then find the universe only to be Brahman. Being now in the world, you see
the world as such. Get BEYOND IT AND THIS WILL DISAPPEAR, THE REALITY ALONE WILL SHINE.

*

Someone asked Annamalai Swami: Does the mind (= read Maya) die gradually or suddenly?

Annamalai Swami: One answer is: When the Sun comes up, does the darkness disappear suddenly or gradually?

Sri Bhagavan, speaking on this topic, once remarked:-  Someone mistakes a rope hanging in the darkness for a snake.
He then asks how many years it will take for the snake to die?

This is a better answer: If the mind does not exist, it cannot die either quickly or slowly.

*

The idea is to transcend the mind and not try to describe it. If the mind is transcended, there is no Maya.

Or to take the path of bhakti marga, when you pray to Maya: Please do not test me. Then she becomes Suddha Maya.
One who directs you to Brahman. If you do not pray to Her, she becomes asuddha maya, the one who can test you
and make you suffer. She is avidya and also Vidya.

vidya avidya swarupini; jada sakti jadathmika; she is also Chaitanya rupini. The form of Consciousness. See Lalita
Sahasranamam.

Arunachala Siva.           
               
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 24, 2012, 11:50:26 AM
I concor with Subramanian ji. One does not destroy maya. Trying to destroy maya is like trying to burry a shadow as Annamalai Swami ji says.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 24, 2012, 01:57:35 PM
Watching this animation video strong emotion emerge in me, about how deep is the connection between the Student and the Guru. :) Yes, the context here is a little different but is very close to what we mean by Teacher/Student connection. The Guru always gives strength to the Student and say to him that He always will be with him. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tRepZdoRmY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tRepZdoRmY)
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 25, 2012, 02:45:01 PM
Quote
What is Maya? It is indescribable.  How can one destroy that which one cannot itself describe? It is like a dream. Why for
someone dreams occur in sleep? You cannot even describe how the dreams occur. Then how to destroy them and sleep a
dreamless sleep everyday?  One cannot destroy the Maya. One can however transcend Maya. When a dog sleeps on the road,
you cannot destroy the dog to walk further.  You can only walk past it either by jumping over it or taking a path without
stamping on it.

Yes, Sri Subramanian. Maya cannot be destroyed if we consider It as a dream. The question is what is the purpose of the 'jivas" - to destroy all forms, names and so on or just to be the Self? Here lies the problem. Many people (really!) think that jnanis are like blind, deaf and so on people and some force leads them to do what they do. Does Self-realization mean absence of thoughts or just absence of identifications with them knowing that they are just manifestation of your Self? What is transcendence of Maya?
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 25, 2012, 02:56:07 PM
Are thoughts different from Self? For Jnani, manifests himself as thoughts, at will. thoughts are not different from Self.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 25, 2012, 03:06:00 PM
Dear i,

For that Self, what could be there to either identify with or even not identify with? can there be anything apart itself?

As that Self, there is only Self, Thoughts are Self, everything is itself.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 25, 2012, 03:08:08 PM
But why there is difference for us? Some says that Self-realization means dead mind, so there is no any thoughts. Others say that jnani must experience His prarabdha karma. If Atma-jnana means dead mind then how jnani functions. It is very confusing for me.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 25, 2012, 03:13:21 PM
Dear i,

Mrta Manasa, means dead mind, which means, the thoughts don't come about at its will, like it comes to one who is in duality. For a Jnana Nishta, thoughts come only when it is required. For instance, only when somebody spoke to Sri Bhagavan, asked some question, did Sri Bhagavan if, he wills to answer, does he Himself manifest as thoughts and speech. It is said that a Jnani's Mind is Brahman itself.

For us, there is difference because, we are still unable to fathom that there is no difference. there is duality still present, but as of now we all trust the words of all Jnanis' who have only said that there is Non Duality. But it is only not yet discerned.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 25, 2012, 04:03:03 PM
Mind is always dead!
just dont give it the status of being alive.
thats it.

Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 25, 2012, 04:26:21 PM
Dear ramana,

First things first.

Dead Mind means only no-thought state. If there is no mind (that is form, see Who am I?) and only thoughts are there, then
dead mind indicates only no-thought state.

Now for a Brahma Jnani or an Atma Jnani it is only a state of abidance in the Self. Since Self and thoughts cannot go together,
it is said that Brahma Jnani cannot have any thoughts. He is like a clean mirror. He reflects only thoughts of devotees and gives
suitable answers depending upon the questioner. Now the question is, how can he speak or compose poems without a thought.
Sri Muruganar answers this point in four verses of Guru Vachaka Kovai:

924:  I declare that even when that mind, in the form of thoughts ceases to function, something remains. That something is the
Reality. Manifesting as time, it operates in a hidden way, abiding as the Temple of Consciousness Bliss.

928:   'Now and then';  'that which is and that which is not''; 'here and there'; a mind that is without even a trace of such thoughts,
and which shines as the eternal, the one, fully present everywhere, is indeed is pure Sivam.

1106: The pure mind of the Jnani, which exists and shines as the Witness, is a mirror that reflects even the impure thoughts that
arise in his presence in those whose minds are completely warped. Thus, he mystifies the minds of others in his presence by giving
the impression that he is a deluded person.

1139: If it is asked, 'We actually see the Jnani performing actions. How can actions be performed in the absence of sense of doership?'
you should be convinced that because his inner attachment, the ego, is dead, he has god himself residing in his Heart, and performing those actions.  (See also Sri Bhagavan's description in entry dated May, 5, 1946, of Day by Day by Devaraja Mudaliar.)

As regards prarabdha, a Jivan Mukta does not have any prarabdha. Prarabdha affects what? If affects only mind/body complex.
The Jivan mukta has no mind-body consciousness and in the absence of an object, the arrow of prarabdha cannot hit anything.

Sri Sankara also says the same in his Viveka Chudamani.

When the attendant asked Sri Bhagavan during His terminal cancer: Is it paining, Bhagavan? Sri Bhagavan answered:
Yes. The body is paining.

It is as if telling, that my shirt has torn! I am not the shirt. I am not the body.  Since a Jivanmukta has to have a body,
according to the onlooker's point of view, the body is said to be 'separate' from him, like a shirt hanging on the coat stand.

Arunachala Siva.                   
 
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 25, 2012, 04:31:35 PM
Dear ramana,

The following are the golden words of Sri Bhagavan. Each one is a Mahavakya.

1. Consciousness + mind/ego/thoughts = Jiva.

2. Consciousness - mind/ego/thoughts = a Jivan Mukta.

3. Egolessness is Consciousness.

4. To think is not your real nature. Your true  nature is Being. Not doing something.

Arunachala Siva. 
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 25, 2012, 05:25:01 PM
Thank you, Sri Subramanian! Great explanation! But naturally others questions come in my mind. Bhagavan often has said that the mind is bundle of thoughts. If there is no thoughts then how could there be mind? If there is no mind then there is no duality and there is no way of reflecting. When we are in deep sleep there is no thoughts but does that mean that therer is no mind?

And you said:

1. Consciousness + mind/ego/thoughts = Jiva.

I agree. But in deep sleep there is no mind, ego and thoughts. Then why we are not Self-realized then, at least for the time we are asleep? Why there is no awareness?
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 25, 2012, 05:34:39 PM
On the contrary, i discern there is no mind to die. What is, is Just 'you' - That 'You' rises as thoughts and the same 'you' subsides as sleep,. 'You' are a witnessing 'Yourself' as everything.

Self manifests as thoughts. there is no questions such as mind being different from 'You' There is just 'You' which can't really claim to say "My Mind" when one says, my mind, one is infering oneself. It is just like seeing your reflection in mirror and you say, that is i. but the existence in mirror is false, you are where you are, ie. not in the mirror.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 25, 2012, 05:36:44 PM
Dear Ramana,
        :) Mind has avarna shakti [the power to viel our true nature] and vikshepa shakti [the power to project things].
in waking and dream sleep "avarna + vikshepa" are functional.
in deep sleep: avarna is functional.

So Jnana , when learnt from a proper guru and when firmness of conviction is gained... aids in removing avarna. Once Avarna is removed, vikshepa also subsides eventually. So this one liberates oneself.

ignorance can only be removed through knowledge. i do not know my true nature, thats the problem. the solution is not to stop the projections of mind. people try to calm mind. that is simply reducing the projections. that wont help. knowledge is required which removes ignorance and then vikshepa needs to be undone. thats the way.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 25, 2012, 05:39:00 PM
Mind has avarna shakti [the power to viel our true nature] and vikshepa shakti [the power to project things].
in waking and dream sleep "avarna + vikshepa" are functional.
in deep sleep: avarna is functional.

Dear i,

where does the mind get its Avarna Shakti. Just for your contemplation, i question - you say mind is dead, then how does it have Avarna Shakti? just ponder..

The moon derives light from Sun, not itself, and the Sun derives its light from 'You'

The source of everything is just 'You' or 'i'

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 25, 2012, 05:41:47 PM
Dear i (all)

Shankara's Ekashloki -

किं ज्योतिस्तवभानुमानहनि मे रात्रौ प्रदीपादिकं
स्यादेवं रविदीपदर्शनविधौ किं ज्योतिराख्याहि मे ।
चक्षुस्तस्य निमीलनादिसमये किं धीर्धियो दर्शने
किं तत्राहमतो भवान्परमकं ज्योतिस्तदस्मि प्रभो ॥
इति श्रीमत्परमहंसपरिव्राजकाचार्यस्य
श्रीगोविन्दभगवत्पूज्यपादशिष्यस्य

Bhagavan Ramana adopted the same in Ulladu Naarpadu Anubandham (7)

Master : ‘By what light do you see?’
Disciple : ‘The sun by day, the lamp by night.’
M : ‘By what light do you see these lights?’
D : ‘The eye.’
M : ‘By what light do you see the eye?’
D : ‘The mind.’
M : ‘By what light do you know the mind?’
D : ‘My Self.’
M : ‘You then are the Light of Lights.’
D : ‘Yes, That I am.’

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 25, 2012, 05:44:34 PM
Quote
ignorance can only be removed through knowledge. i do not know my true nature, thats the problem. the solution is not to stop the projections of mind. people try to calm mind. that is simply reducing the projections. that wont help. knowledge is required which removes ignorance and then vikshepa needs to be undone. thats the way.

Sri Udai, what more knowledge do we need? We have read so many about Advaita, Jnana, Ramana and so on that many of us can write books even now. As you say calming the mind doesn't work. Ok, I will calm it down but then what? It will become active again.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 25, 2012, 05:45:27 PM
Dear Nagaraj,
           :) Its true that both avarna shakti and vikshepa shakti are just maya... meaning ya ma.

and also to be noted. its wrong to say thoughts are "in" Self or Self. because thoughts belong to the realm of mithya which is infact not there at all. like a snake. is it correct to say snake is rope ? yes, but that means snake is not there ... only rope is.
otherwise snake can never be the rope. coz rope is changeless and snake is changing. thats exactly how thoughts are Self. because thougths are not there , Self alone IS.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 25, 2012, 05:49:54 PM
Dear i,

there is no ignorance at all!

Even when the clouds hide the Sun (Self) by which light is one able to say, the clouds are hiding the Sun(Self) -- it is again through the light of Sun(Self) itself.

Self is known even NOW. to each one of us. There is no doubt here - about this truth!

When there is no ignorance, when there is no Maya, what are we all trying to over come? which ignorance are we trying to overcome? which mind are we trying to destroy?

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 25, 2012, 05:50:36 PM
Dear Ramana,
         :) Firstly Jnana is NOT intellectual understanding. Jnana is a change in "Perspective" thats Firm.
If you have that change, then you do not "Seek" anything else. Because u are already Firm that you are the Self.

if that Firmness is not there, remove all the doubts first and then constantly meditate and create that firmness.

Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 25, 2012, 05:50:47 PM
Dear ramana,

1, Yes. Sri Bhagavan has said that a mind is bundle of thoughts. Now what does it mean? Suppose there is a bunch of grapes.
If each grape is consumed, then what remains? Only the stem. The stem is of no use, is it not? Sri Bhagavan has said one
more simile for thought-less mind. It is like a dhadha vatam, a burnt coir. The burnt coir has got a form but it is of no use to
'bind' anything.   

2, The reflecting takes place in the Self or pure mind. Pure mind (thoughtless mind) is Self. (Nagaraj explained this recently).
Pure Mind is only a substitute term for the onlooker's point of view. This is nothing but the Self.

In deep sleep, there are no thoughts and so three is no mind also.

Deep sleep = no mind, no thoughts, only Atma and nescience. latent tendencies.

dream state = half blossoming mind, Atma and nescience.

Waking state = fully blossomed mind, Atma and nescience.

If this nescience also is extinguished, that is Self Realized state. Self Inquiry, Sri Bhagavan says, will burn the nescience too.

The Self Realized State is Atma Swarupam.

3.  Why one can not achieve self realization only by continuously sleeping? One reason is that there are still latent tendencies.
The second  reason is not IT IS A DULL STATE. When one wakes up, starting from I thought, all thieves will march to smother
you.

In Self Realization, which can be attained only waking state, the self inquiry kills the latent tendencies.   

4. Such a Jnani remains ever with Awareness, and in waking state, dream state and deep sleep state too. The dullness of
deep sleep is not there. Such a Jnani who is in Sahaja Samadhi with inward looking vacant gaze, is said to be in
'sleepless sleep.'  A saint poet sang: thoongAmal thoongi sukam peruvathu ekkAlam? When shall I attain that state
of sleep less sleep and attain Sukam?

Sri Bhagavan also said in Verse 37 of Akshara Mana Malai:

If I slumber in quiet repose, enjoying the Bliss of Being, what other moksha is there, tell me, O Arunachala!         

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 25, 2012, 05:51:52 PM
Dear Nagaraj,
           :) You are perfectly right!
There is no "Liberation" nor "Bondage"
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 25, 2012, 05:53:31 PM
Dear i (all)

"if you know the Self, there is no need to remove doubts at all......"

the fact is SELF IS ALREADY KNOWN TO YOU

"You are That"

What can confuse "You", what can hide "You" what can delude "You"

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 25, 2012, 05:53:53 PM
I believe its not wise to put a condition... if this happens then ill consider myself awakened.
Right now, here ... everyone is Awakened. This idea that i am not awakened or that i am not the Self yet needs to be banished first. firmly holding onto the fact that i am the Self.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 25, 2012, 06:09:51 PM
Yes.

1. During waking state I know I am
2. During dream I know I am
3. During deep sleep I don't know I am

1 and 2 the nescience comes from the fact that what I think I am is not true. In 3 nescience comes from the fact that I don't even percept an illusiory "I am"-ness. Am I right? Then why we are not able according to Bhagavan to realize who we are or to do Self-inquiry during sleep or in 'another after-death world'? Sometimes in dream we do things, intellectual, emotional, even solve problems. Then why should dream cannot be useful? There is even dream techniques who aim 'unfolding' our consciousness and try to solve some problems. It is not just a question of curiosity!
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 25, 2012, 06:10:26 PM
Dear i (all)

i want bring a paradigm shift to all the quest.

Instead of being in search of Self. Try to prove for yourself how the Self is not known this moment.

Try to prove ignorance, for yourself and see, if it can be proved, bring out those discernment, so and so reasons, hence it is true that I am ignorant.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 25, 2012, 06:13:44 PM
Quote
Dear i (all)

i want bring a paradigm shift to all the quest.

Instead of being in search of Self. Try to prove for yourself how the Self is not known this moment.

Try to prove ignorance, for yourself and see, if it can be proved, bring out those discernment, so and so reasons, hence it is true that I am ignorant.

Right now the Self is known for me. I know I am. Yes, there is ignorance, wrong identification but at least I know I am. The problem for me is that it is not known when I am asleep. The same is for the people in coma, may be and for the dead people.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 25, 2012, 06:15:37 PM
Dear i

3. During deep sleep I don't know I am

Is there any way you can know yourself? the following points too, are not true -

1. During waking state I know I am
2. During dream I know I am

Can eye see itself? Can tongue taste itself?

when you say You know I am in waking and dream states, you are not referring to Self but you are referring to your body.

Infact, 'You' are the same even in Case scenario 1, 2 and 3 presented by you as above.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 25, 2012, 06:19:08 PM
Yes, but I know I am (exist).
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 25, 2012, 06:20:06 PM
Right now the Self is known for me. I know I am. Yes, there is ignorance, wrong identification but at least I know I am. The problem for me is that it is not known when I am asleep. The same is for the people in coma, may be and for the dead people.

Dear i,

Please discern, You say, Self is known to you. Can Self be an object of knowing any time? Please carefully see, what are you referring as "I am"

Immediately you say, there is ignorance, wrong identification, but you say, at least you know, I am - If you know there is wrong identification, ignorance, then in which way you are ignorant? in which way are you having wrong identification?

The one that says that there is ignorance, that there is wrong identification, is himself not ignorance, himself is not in delusion of any wrong identification.

As per the sleep query, i have mentioned my discernment in my previous post

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 25, 2012, 06:21:31 PM
Yes, but I know I am (exist).

Dear i,

take out the "but' YOU KNOW, YOU KNOW YOURSELF WITHOUT ANY MEDIUM OF KNOWING.

YOU, ARE THERE IN ALL THREE STATES. not the I am you said you were in the case scenarios. They are not "YOU"

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 25, 2012, 06:21:43 PM
Dear Nagaraj, srkudai,

I agree that Self is ever realized. There is no need to attain anything. There is no bondage, no one bound, no moksha, no mukti etc.,

But member like Ramana is a beginner. He has got some genuine questions. The questions have to be answered in a conventional
manner. If one suddenly says: You are That. Summa Iru, it will put cold water into his enthusiasm to know things. Sri Bhagavan
of course said on a few occasions the direct answer, as above. But He said with a gaze that was penetrating into the hearts of
the devotees and made the quieten the mind, at least in that period of time. Then slowly with Sri Bhagavan's Grace, they understood
the direct path. Whereas in Forum, I cannot look at the questioners with Sri Bhagavan's gaze because I am myself is not fully
successful in self inquiry and I am somewhat in the middle level.

Hence all answers are given in a traditional manner, with of course, including sayings of Sri Bhagavan here and there.

*

One Andhra devotee was sent by Swami Yogananda to Sri Bhagavan because that devotee would not progress in yoga method.
This gentleman came. And asked Sri Bhagavan: What should I do to attain Self Realization? Sri Bhagavan after some silence, gazed
at him and then  told him: Vandha vazhiye po...."Go by the way in which you came."  The Andhra devotee did not understand anything. He was slightly disappointed thinking that Sri Bhagavan was asking him to back to Andhra! After some days, Muruganar to whom he told his predicament answered: You have been given Upadesam. Sri Bhagavan says: Go by the way in which you came!  This means seek
the way inwardly the place where ego sprouted first.  The Andhra devotee understood this and began in earnest self attention
and he succeeded.   The Gaze did all the trick.

Srii Bhagavan's Gaze (which is nothing but transmission of Grace) helped him.

*

When Kunju Swami came first, he found Sri Bhagavan heating rice powder with water to make a kanji. Three squirrels were
waiting for the food. They were closeted in a basket. Sri Bhagavan said: Catch all the three. Then He said Leave one by one.
The squirrels left one by one took share of their kanji. One squirrel urinated. Sri Bhagavan said: Clean up. Kunju Swami cleaned
up the place with his towel.

Now what does it mean to all of us? Simple instructions to feed the squirrels.

Kunju Swami already steeped in Jnana Marga understood.

Catch the three = the three are ego, karma and maya. Catch hold of all the three.

Leave one by one = leave ego, karma and maya one by one.

Clean up the place = clean up your mind without any trace of these.

Kunju Swami took these as Maha vakyas and pursued his sadhana.


Arunachala Siva.             
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 25, 2012, 06:26:49 PM
But member like Ramana is a beginner. He has got some genuine questions. The questions have to be answered in a conventional manner. If one suddenly says: You are That. Summa Iru, it will put cold water into his enthusiasm to know things.

Dear i,

there is none beginner or advanced. Sri Bhagavan spoke to Monkeys, dogs and cows. Infact, it is Ramana's question, that is inviting these answers. Can Self confuse any anybody? Does Self require any qualification and advancement to be known?

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 25, 2012, 06:27:59 PM
Dear ramana,

Merely knowing the Self would not help. One should own it. How to own it? You have to remove the cobwebs surrounding it.
These cobwebs are ignorance, vasanas, the idea that Self can be attained with thoughts, etc., etc.,  If these cobwebs
are removed (and that is Sadhana), then the house is clean and you can really own it!

Sri Bhagavan said once: What is there to real-ize it? You should only remove the obstacles. Then it is Real. There is no realization.

Though ever realized,  Atma is realized really, only when anatma vikaranam gets removed.

Arunachala Siva.

     
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 25, 2012, 06:29:42 PM
Dear Nagaraj,

Only Ramana should answer as to what is obstructing him. Because of such obstructions only, such questions arose from him.

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 25, 2012, 06:32:43 PM
Only Ramana should answer as to what is obstructing him. Because of such obstructions only, such questions arose from him.

Dear i,

in the same way, Ramana can speak for himself. He will certainly work his way out. in the same way we are no body to say somebody is beginner or advanced, and we are nobody to say what sort of answers need be told to him. All are same, no matter what.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 25, 2012, 06:40:56 PM
Dear i,

Sri Bhagavan has been very categorical in sharing about Self Enquiry. You will remember very well, when an old village woman cam and lamented to Sri Bhagavan how she is facing so much difficulties, and when she sought Sri Bhagavan's help, He asked her, whether she had those difficulties during her sleep, and she affirmed in No, Sri Bhagavan said, so it is only when you wake from slep all these problems have arised, so enquire who is this 'I' and all problmes will disappear.

Ganapati Muni who was beside during this incident was rather surprised and asked Bhagavan as why he told this such big brahma vidya to such an innocent villager, what would she know about enquiry and all? and suggedted to Him that he could pehaps have asked her to chant om nama shivaya or something. Sri Bhagavan expressed immdiately that this is what he knows and this is what he can tell people and let all others share what ever they know.

He never saw any differences Dear i. Each soul is potentially divine.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 25, 2012, 07:35:39 PM
Dear Nagaraj,

Yes. Every jiva is potentially divine.  Sri Bhagavan also told about Self Inquiry to even village women, why even to monkeys.
But there it was Guru Vakyam. Words of a divine Guru. Hence it has its effects even at least with some of them. But we are
not gurus and what we say is only quoting guru vakyam. We are all in the same boat sharing Sri Bhagavan's teachings.
Since we are not Gurus, we can at best post His words and leave the sadhakas to attain the grace by beseeching Sri Bhagavan
for Grace. But certain fundamental questions have to be answered, since we lack that status of Guru, a Sadguru, who is ever
abiding in the Self.

As otherwise, if all of us can understand self inquiry and do sadhana of our own, then this Forum which gives interactive clarifications
need not be there at all. Alas, it is not the case. We read books on Sri Bhagavan and about His teachings. We do not possess the
sublime state of a Sadguru like Sri Bhagavan. Hence clarifications from the conventional advaita becomes essential. It is a form
of essentially disciple to disciple interaction. Here apart from quoting Sri Bhagavan, we have to say some traditional principles too.

If I merely say, You are Brahman, do not worry about anything, then perhaps some one (not Ramana) may simply chant I am
Brahman, I am Brahman for ever and may not progress at all.


Arunachala Siva.     
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 25, 2012, 08:04:22 PM
Dear i,

before i discern and respond to your concern, i would be happy to hear from other members as well, as to what their views are.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 25, 2012, 08:14:13 PM
Dear all,

I request one and all to kindly share your views on what Sri Subramanian Sir has expressed. It is the members, one and all, who are to express what is the code of conduct here, what needs to be expressed, where to limit our exchanges of thoughts and so on. If the Admin Sri Graham deems it worthy and fit, i request him to share his opinions as well, as it would provide great clarity, on how this forum has to proceed, and on what grounds Sadhakas can express themselves and where to exercise limit or restraint and so on.

For personally, though i respect Subramanian Sir's concern, i do not see anywhere any undue expressions! All that has been expressed are expressed with sincere discernment and keeping the questioner(in the thread) in mind, and they are not just mere parroting for simply for argument sake. What is being expressed are very essential and important for ones own discernment. At some point, one has to face such contradictions and confusions.

So dear all, kindly do share your views.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 26, 2012, 06:52:17 AM
Subramanian/Nagaraj/friends,
1.What our friend subramanian has expressed is indeed true that there are no stock replies to any problem.It is true that when a Great one says something it has a profound effect in the mind of the listener and this power comes from the Power of Truth that he lives and embodies.

2.Yet it is also true that one can learn from others irrespective of who or what they are.One who has encountered difficulties on the path and has overcome them is certainly in a position to share his learning with another who is facing a difficulty-and here again there are two options for the one who shares:
1.Quote the words of a Great one so that the contextual relevance is seen and understood.
2.Say it simply in one's own words and leave it at that.
Often it may so happen that such sharing may not be heard or understood by the person addressed to ,and sometimes they may be dismissed outright as well.One may then leave it at that,what else to do!

3.Coming to whether someone is a Beginner or advanced seeker-this is a touchy subject!Most often these are based on perceptions and may very well be wrong.In general the more advanced a seeker is, the more he will feel that he is only a Beginner who is yet to step on the path;the more  will he be open,receptive and understand that there are many sides to Truth.

I have one question for Nagaraj-What do you mean by discernment?I find you are using this word so frequently and I also find that there are amendments that follow soon after.
Namaskar.


Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 26, 2012, 09:00:08 AM
I have one question for Nagaraj-What do you mean by discernment?I find you are using this word so frequently and I also find that there are amendments that follow soon after.

Dear i,

Discernment is simply seeing 'what is' it is pure negation of what is not.

when i say it is straight and simple - what ever be discernment, that which discerns, Himself, cannot be discerned, this, is yet another, discernment, that this Discerner which cannot be discerned is the Self. All my posts aspire to bring focus only this Discerner alone.

If any amendments are made, they are only made to correct the English and grammatical errors of typos. However, if i do post complete new amendment, i post those discernment in new post stating, i differ from my previous post.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 26, 2012, 09:11:27 AM
Dear Subramanian,
       :) Neither Ramana nor any of us are beginners. Neither Ramana nor any of us are advanced. We are simply the Self.
Whether we know it or not.

When intellectually this is not appreciated, what you say is true... we need to "Explain". This is where "discernment" [nagraj garu :)] comes into picture. Its very very importatn. once the basics are done, one has to carry this discernment to the level of mananam and use it to remain established in Self.

If intellectually its clear that "I AM Awareness, untouched by mind/body" ... Then, one simply has to be Firm with it. Firmness of Conviction is developed by again and again "Being IT". Like the squirrel example Ramana gave ... each time it comes out, place it back in.
If one is able to "Just Be" even for a moment, that means his only task is to keep reverting back to "That" again and again. That is even if we are consciously able to remain

if ever the mind says "I am still a beginner"... "Who is a beginner? Awareness does not begin, does not end". Thus one reverts back & corrects the ego. If we see Ribbhu Gita, from the first line to the last it has only one thing to say "World is not there, i am awareness". And the fact taht Bhagavan recommended it means that he wants people to gain that conviction. That firmness. So there are scriptures that talk about "Sristi dristi vadam", which are studied to understand our true nature. The scriptures of Dristi sristi vadam are for deep mananam and those that speak ajat vada are for nidhidhyasam.

Swami Vivekananda always stressed the need to shakeoff the petty notions and limitations and stand as Awareness constantly. Thats of utmost importance.

Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 26, 2012, 09:45:34 AM
Nagaraj,
"However, if i do post complete new amendment, i post those discernment in new post stating, i differ from my previous post"
It is obvious that the 'Disceernment' is shifting and changing.What is the nature of this 'Discernment'? :)
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 26, 2012, 10:04:29 AM
Dear i,

is the change more important or the Discernment? It is upto the reader to discern Himself, whether he wishes to pursue discussion for argument sake or discern what is truth.

One has to chose wisely, what is important. Whether to prove the other wrong or discern what is truth.

These are the very movements, that distract one.

In this very thread, Reply No. 118 i had discerned as follows:
Quote
Dear i, please stay with this discernment, what is discerned can be easily forgotten by passage of time and by the advent of vasanas, other wise, we have to travel once again all through the jungle all over again, needlessly :D

The discernment has not changed, that very discernment is bringing one back to light. That Discerner is prompting back to the right source.

Again, it is discerned what is Not and what only IS.

Just for fact, i would like to mention that it is only in reply No 188, under this thread, i have mentioned as follows:

Quote
Fundamentally, i would like to correct my views from my last post.

Dear i, you have to read the whole continuity of this thread before discerning, that discernment is change. the background of the movement of the thread has to be thoroughly looked into before just arriving at conclusion such as -

It is obvious that the 'Disceernment' is shifting and changing.What is the nature of this 'Discernment'? :)

Isn't the discernment bringing back to right light? This is what one must be concerned with, this is pure discernment. No matter what moves, staying with the light of 'what is' is alone intelligence.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 26, 2012, 10:12:29 AM
Dear i,

i never shy or hesitate to bring to notice, the corrections i had to make, i bring it openly that my discernment was wrong, and i stand to correct myself with the current discernment.

One should stay with the aim to discern what is truth alone Dear i, this alone is important.

Discernment moves from base to Self.

Look at Taittiriya Upanishad,

The discernment moves from Annamaya Kosha to discerning finally the Anandamaya Kosha.

Discernment may change, but the Truth that the Discernment focuses on, the aim that the discernment focuses on, never changes.

Hence Discernment brings one to the right light always.

Moroever, As Udai, discerned rightly as follows:

Quote
When intellectually this is not appreciated, what you say is true... we need to "Explain". This is where "discernment" comes into picture

Otherwise there is no discernment necessary.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 26, 2012, 10:18:26 AM
Nagaraj,
The Real reason why the 'Discernment' is shifting is on account of the wide gap between 'Thinking' and 'Feeling'. :)
I do not subscribe to argumentation.
I will only point out our discussion sometime back-How we were discussing the difficulty in getting up from Bed,the need for early supper atleast 2 and a 1/2 hrs before going to bed,How this is difficult to practise in every day life on account of our present day life style,et all.This is 'What is'.The actual  Feeling and Doing.
On the other hand is our 'Thought' that 'We are the Self' and nothing but 'That'-This is thinking.
There is this wide gap between our 'Living' and 'Thinking'.
The Beginner is one who is earnest and sets about minimizing the 'Gap'.His chief concern is not whether he is the one undivided Self that he knows nothing about.His chief concern is that if he thinks that he is only a 'man' to Feel,Do and Think as a 'Man'.To harmonize the Feeling,Speaking and Doing-this is the foundation of Sadhana.

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 26, 2012, 10:38:33 AM
Dear i,

the reason why Discernment shifts is due to vasanas - predispositions. and it is yet again discerned that the only way to harmonize every difference is by seeing and being with what is discerned, that pure intellectual understanding of the Truth.

and, on account of vasanas, when one forgets the discernment, one has to bring it back to source.

i believe, this is what all Gurus have been conveying over all ages. Being with God, Being with "I am" Being with "i - thought - where from it originates"

You said:

Quote
The Beginner is one who is earnest and sets about minimizing the 'Gap'.His chief concern is not whether he is the one undivided Self that he knows nothing about.His chief concern is that if he thinks that he is only a 'man' to Feel,Do and Think as a 'Man'.To harmonize the Feeling,Speaking and Doing-this is the foundation of Sadhana.

But, in this thread, what ever is being discussed as of now, was related to the questions expressed by Ramana. How does one decide who is a beginner or advanced?

what was discerned was inspired by the questions themselves.

But, the end is you are putting up a question, whether we can discuss or express ultimate truth here. there is a concern that somebody who oneself perceives as 'beginner' may not benefit these ultimate discernment. is this the concern?

i discern, that such a beginner would himself question again and again, for experiencing the futility of ultimate truth, and by his own earnestness and perseverance he would bring himself up, Uddaret Atmanaatmaanam... On has to uplift oneself by ones own self.

But, this thread being under discussion was not concerning such a sadhaka as above. The questioner in this thread is bringing out or extracting his discernment by the intensity of questions that he has been expressing.

You are pointing out a discussion sometime back How we were discussing the difficulty in getting up from Bed,the need for early supper atleast 2 and a 1/2 hrs before going to bed,How this is difficult to practise in every day life on account of our present day life style,et all.This is 'What is'.The actual  Feeling and Doing.

I see, it wisdom, and discern to move on, historical question and historical difficulty is not there today, as of now. but we unknowingly stay put with historical facts. What was yesterday is not there now, and what will be future is not there now. What is, Is just this, here now.

On the hindsight, if this discernment was arrived at, then, then such a concern would never have arisen. But those questions prompted, expressed have led to the current discernment, which is discerned as The Ultimate Truth. It is also discerned, how important it is to not move away from this discernment, no matter what.

This is my discernment.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 26, 2012, 10:45:11 AM
Nagaraj,
Mind!Oh Mind!It is all  mind(Is it not the topic,in whatever way the question is posed!).Unless the mind arrives at silence and quiet,it will move in circles.I have nothing more to add for the moment.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 26, 2012, 10:56:48 AM
Dear i,

I really appreciate your questioning my discernment. indirectly, you are only helping me further enhance my discernment. I am genuinely grateful to you. :)

"Mind is not different from Self" - is my discernment.

Silence is not silence of words or thoughts. Silence is absolute Clarity - தெளிவு - Undisturbed - absolute absence of agitation, no trace of any doubts that could question the discernment of truth.

Grateful to one and all. all your questions are thoroughly grinding me well as Kabir says.

चलति चक्कि देखकर कबीर् दिया कबीरा रोय​
दुइ पाटन के बीच में साबुत बचा न कोए ॥


Looking at the grinding stones, Kabir laments
In the duel of wheels, nothing stays intact.

Kabir, sees a woman grinding wheat using the grinding stone, and he contemplates himself as the the wheat, being ground, by the heavy stone, without being spared, it is made to crush, forcibly into fine powder, which cannot be segregated eventually. Seeing this, Kabir cries, because of the pain of Samsara,   दिया कबीरा रोय​ in between the sky and the earth दुइ पाटन के बीच, all this takes place, all emotions, such as happiness, sorrow, pleasure, pain, goodness and badness, and so on, all the dualities. The bottom stone is the earth and the sky is the upper grinding stone, and the wheat being us, is being crushed, ie., these dualities is being crushed, it is painful.

All the member's questions are enhancing my conviction on the discernment of truth.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 26, 2012, 12:19:09 PM
Dear Nagaraj and srkudai,

When we say something about Sri Bhagavan's life and teachings, we are saying with our buddhi and not out of experience.
This is where the huge gap lies. When Guru says something, he says with AruL (as I quoted Tayumanavar in some other post
today). We cannot give AruL or pass on Grace since we are ourselves seeking AruL and Grace from guru.  In that sense, we
are all beginners.

Sri Bhagavan said: 'Iru' (Be) to Tinnai Swami. He merely stayed still in Arunachala for two decades and attained liberation on a
Mahadeepam Day.

If I say to someone Iru, (Be), he will stay for some minutes and move away!  (Perhaps he may think I am a fool).
This is where Sri Bhagavan differs from me. 

Sri Bhagavan said yes when Kitty Osborne asked Him to take care of his father (Arthur Osborne). HE DID TAKE CARE.
When Osborne arrived at Tiruvannamalai, Sri Bhagavan said: Kitty, I have given your father safe!

Can I give some assurance (AruL) to a boy whose father is suffering in concentration camp, with no hope of release?

This is where Sri Bhagavan differs from me.       


All of us can attain Sri Bhagavan's state one day or other. But today we have not attained.


Arunachala Siva. 
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 26, 2012, 12:24:43 PM
- What must I do to be liberated, Master?
- Just surrender.
- How to do that?
- Give up all your desires, hopes, dreams, fears, plans, etc.!
- Why should I do that?
- Because they are unreal.
- If it is so then how can I give up all of them?
- By two means - by searching for the Cause of them or by surrendering the results of all your actions to It.
- Is the Cause real?
- The Cause is the only thing that is real. Actually there is no Cause because there is no Its derivatives. In the absence of the one part of the polarity there is no polarity at all. Then how could we even say that the Cause is Cause. Cause for what? In this sense of the word the Cause is also unreal. The Real is alway real as It is! It has no names or forms. It is not a product of concepts, speculations, doctrines, philosophies and so on. Reality cannon be achived because It is always existent - during wakefulness, dream, sleep, death, coma, heaven, hell, astral dimensions, you name it. The cause you don't realize It is because you identify yourself with Its projection called the Mind. The Mind creates phenomenal world and the dualities. The Mind is the cause for our misery but It is also our only way for liberation. To fall apart the Kingdom of Maya we must kill the King. This imaginable King can be killed only by imaginable poison. So never underestimate the Mind.
- All this saddens me. My parents, my friends, my house, my girlfriend, my future children seem to be illusion. I feel like I am alone in this world.
- Yes, you are. The cause for this loneliness is because you skip the most important part - your perception of yourself is also illusion. Find out who is this who is feeling lonely. If you do and more questions arise then you can with clear conscience cast away everything that I have told you.
- Master, please, I beg you will all my heart, show me the Reality.
- Oh, my son, the Reality is here, now, but you cannot see it because other things which you consider more important stay on your way. Clean up the dust on the Mirror and will see again what You are - the most magnificent entity of all the worlds, the Cause of everything, the God Almighty. Yes, the God you pray every single day is your own Self!
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 26, 2012, 12:26:32 PM

Quote
All of us can attain Sri Bhagavan's state one day or other. But today we have not attained.

I share your opinion 100 % percents!
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 26, 2012, 12:43:06 PM
When we say something about Sri Bhagavan's life and teachings, we are saying with our buddhi and not out of experience.
This is where the huge gap lies. When Guru says something, he says with AruL (as I quoted Tayumanavar in some other post
today). We cannot give AruL or pass on Grace since we are ourselves seeking AruL and Grace from guru.  In that sense, we
are all beginners.

Dear i,

Why cant one discern that what one is saying, Sri Bhagavan Himself is saying through somebody? after all are we all not mere instruments of Him?

I remember a story, a person, who was a devotee, having received instructions from his Guru, leads a decent life, His Guru taught him to see God in everything, so he believed the words of his Guru and began seeing God in everything. One day, a mad elephant was headed towards a village destroying everything and killing everybody on the way. This person, stood boldly before the elephant assuming that  elephant is also God, and remained fixed. Another person who was close by, shouted, please run, please run, but he refused to listen to him, and said to him that this is also God and He will not harm him. Then having hurt his bones royally, later after death, when he goes up to heavens and meets God, he questions him as to why He did not save him, as he was following the revelation of Guru and scriptures, to which God replied, dear son, everything is God, no doubt about it, but, did you not see God in the person who asked you to run? but you disregarded God in that person.

This is Arul. Arul is discernment.

If one can only see value in words of Guru alone, and ignores the truth said by others, then it would be as the above story.

"isavasyam idam sarvam yat kim ca jagatyam jagat: "

All this that you perceive, see, or contact through the sense organs is enveloped by God."

Infact, true Bhaktas, True Sadhakas have to see oneself as a Sadhakas and all others as Iswara Swarupa. This i discern.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 26, 2012, 12:45:51 PM
Quote
All of us can attain Sri Bhagavan's state one day or other. But today we have not attained.
I share your opinion 100 % percents!

Dear i,

i only discern and ask both yourselves whether we can use the word "WE" when you both express your views as All of us can attain Sri Bhagavan's state one day or other. But today we have not attained.

One can talk about just oneself. One cannot represent for all.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 26, 2012, 01:06:45 PM
Quote
i only discern and ask both yourselves whether we can use the word "WE" when you both express your views as All of us can attain Sri Bhagavan's state one day or other. But today we have not attained.

One can talk about just oneself. One cannot represent for all.

Until there is "I" which to speak for him/herself where is the problem to say we? We cannot escape that. We cannot say "Others doesn't exist but I exist". This is wrong. Or you don't exist and all others don't exist too (as in deep sleep or Atma-jnana state) or we all exist. "Only I exist (ego)" is called solipsism and we have discussed it somewhere in our previous posts.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 26, 2012, 01:14:39 PM
Dear i,

All i am saying is, if one wears a blue coloured spectacles, all that is seen appears to looks in blue, but it is not so, it is because of our vision that everything appears as blue.

In the following observation of Sri Subramanian Sir and also your sharing this observation:

All of us can attain Sri Bhagavan's state one day or other. But today we have not attained.

each one can only say as follows:

All of us can attain Sri Bhagavan's state one day or other. But today i have not attained.

This is all i am saying.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 26, 2012, 01:57:27 PM
You know that we have not attained your Goal yet. If we were we would not be here. So yes, Sri Subramanian used in place the word "we". I understand you, Sri Nagaraj but I have some concerns about you. You always avoid the use of "we", "others" and so on. Why are you doing this? Do you have any doubt that we are existent as much as you are? Or are you trying to put a wall between you and the world? You always stress importance to the "I" but don't forget you are not this "I"! Your point of view is not independent. Do not fool yourself. You think that your perception of the world is important and the world is what you think you are. But again never forget that the world always can change your way of thinking and perception, as Sri Bhagavan have done it for you!
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Nagaraj on May 26, 2012, 02:20:25 PM
Dear i,

unless oneself discerns, one will be hit by contradictions and confusions. All these are of no help to you. please be concerned about yourself, i appreciate your concern for me, but it is of least importance for you more than it is of any importance here.

Even now, instead of seeing things with proper discrimination, discernment, you are just deviating here and there. I just wish you the best!

Prostrations to Bhagavan
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 26, 2012, 04:44:57 PM
I have not doubted even for a second that you wish all the best to all of us. Don't you see? What you do for me is enough. I don't need more. For you me you, as well the others here, are what I need. So let's don't divide that that has already is divided. I can find help from many things. Sometime some very unexpected situations, people, animals, plants, religion and philosophies have given me help, even without they don't know it. So let be a little more optimistic and open-minded to all commentaries and opinions and to try to find the best we can extract from them for our spiritual path.

Glory to Lord Ramana!
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 26, 2012, 05:22:18 PM
Friends,
Communication is an art and one of the key thing is listening.To listen there must be an open mind that is not preoccupied with itself.
An excerpt from a song  -'Sound of silence'(By Simon & Garfunkel) :
"People talking without speaking
People hearing without listening
People writing songs that voices never share!"

Whatever we may think ourselves to be or otherwise,dare anyone deny that one is a human being?Why then fight shy of speaking like a human? :)
Namaskar.


Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 26, 2012, 05:59:10 PM
Friends,
An excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
TRAILOKYA: "It is very difficult to get rid of the ego. People only think they are free
from it."
MASTER: "Gauri would not refer to himself as 'I' lest he should feel egotistic. He would
say 'this' instead
. I followed his example and would refer to myself as 'this' instead of 'I'.
Instead of saying, 'I have eaten,' I would say, 'This has eaten.' Mathur noticed it and said
one day: 'What is this, revered father? Why should you talk that way? Let them talk that
way. They have their egotism. You are free from it; you don't have to talk like them.
'

The Master freely used 'this','I' 'We' -all forms of expression when he talked to devotees.He was not bound by any image whatsoever.Truly like a child!
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 26, 2012, 06:10:23 PM
Dear Ravi,

For Jnanis who have transcended the ego, these usages I, We are of no significance vis-vis ego.

When Mother Azhagamma came to stay with Him, Sri Bhagavan did not even call her Amma. After devotees pointed out that
this was unfair, He started calling Mother Azhagamma - Amma.  Perhaps this is only to make her feel that she is not only the Mother
of Sri Bhagavan, but all devotees, even animals and birds, even downcastes who came to drink water and sometimes even sought
food when they were quite hungry.

Arunachala Siva.   
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 26, 2012, 06:39:11 PM
Subramanian/Friends,
Here is an Excerpt from 'Letters from Sri Ramanasramam':

(14) CONVENTIONAL RESPECT,12th December, 1945
One morning, during the usual conversations the topic turned on Bhagavan’s mother coming away to live with him
and on her manner of life, and Bhagavan spoke to us as follows:
“Mother began coming here frequently and staying with me for long periods. You know I always address even beasts
and birds in a respectful manner. In the same way, I used to address Mother also with the respectful form of speech. It
then occurred to me that I was doing something hurtful. So I gave up the practice and began addressing her in the
familiar way.
If a practice is natural and has become habitual you feel uncomfortable at changing it. But anyway what do
these bodily things matter?” He spoke with deep feeling and my eyes filled with tears.
Before the dawn of youth appeared on his face he had relinquished all worldly desires, and with Divine
desire he hastened to the holy Arunachala where he reigns in the Kingdom of Eternal Bliss. How can one speak of
the enormous fortune of that mother, in having had the privilege of being called ‘Amma’ (mother) by such a son?
In the Vedas, the mother holds the first claim for worship: “Mathru devo bhava” (Let mother be your God). Even so,
the beauty of it is that Bhagavan felt it unnatural for him to address her in the respectful form
. If he addressed her
so, would she not feel hurt? She felt satisfied only if he addressed her as “Mother.” Perhaps Bhagavan felt that
he ought not to wound her feelings in so small a matter
.

Such is our Bhagavan,so utterly simple.The Great ones are always open and flexible to change their ways!
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 26, 2012, 07:11:39 PM
Quote
For Jnanis who have transcended the ego, these usages I, We are of no significance vis-vis ego.

Sri Subramanian, Ravi and others. This reminded me about a story of Bhagavan Adi Shankara:

Once Adi Sankara is walking through a street saying "Sivoham" ,"Sivoham", a man behind Him repeated the same. To teach him a lesson Adi Sankara took boiling tin and swallowed it and continued His walk as usual. The man behind Him is afraid to see this unexpected event and stopped imitating Adi Sankara.

The difference between 'us' and a Jnani is the Realization of the Self. Today many people talk about Self-realization, write books, establish institutions, make organizations, lectures, cross around the world and so on. But how many of them are as Adi Shankara? How many of them would drink the boiling tin? How could we possibly know who Guru is 'authentic' and who is not? Thank goodness we all here admit that we are ignorant people doing our best for the given moment to move forward to the realization of what we are.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 26, 2012, 07:25:31 PM
Ramana,
yes that is a very wonderful story of sri Adi Sankara teaching the disciple! I am reminded of a similiar story in Papa Ramdas life when he was living on a single boiled potato for a month or so.His disciple Ramcharandas followed suite by imitating his master,and after just two days did not have the strength to even get up!He then learnt how imitating the Great ones without living the Truth they Lived is destabilizing!
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 27, 2012, 08:14:53 AM
Friends,
An excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
The story of the wood-cutter
"Once upon a time a wood-cutter went into a forest to chop wood. There suddenly he met a
brahmachari. The holy man said to him, 'My good man, go forward.' On returning home the
wood-cutter asked himself, 'Why did the brahmachari tell me to go forward?' Some time
passed. One day he remembered the brahmachari's words. He said to himself, 'Today I shall
go deeper into the forest.' Going deep into the forest, he discovered innumerable sandalwood
trees. He was very happy and returned with cart-loads of sandal-wood. He sold them
in the market and became very rich.
"A few days later he again remembered the words of the holy man to go forward. He went
deeper into the forest and discovered a silver-mine near a river. This was even beyond his
dreams. He dug out silver from the mine and sold it in the market. He got so much money
that he didn't even know how much he had.
"A few more days passed. One day he thought: 'The brahmachari didn't ask me to stop at
the silver-mine; he told me to go forward.' This time he went to the other side of the river
and found a gold-mine. Then he exclaimed: 'Ah, just see! This is why he asked me to go
forward.'
"Again, a few days afterwards, he went still deeper into the forest and found heaps of
diamonds and other precious gems. He took these also and became as rich as the god of
wealth himself.
Go forward
"Therefore I say that, whatever you may do, you will find better and better things if only
you go forward. You may feel a little ecstasy as the result of japa, but don't conclude from
this that you have achieved everything in spiritual life
. Work is by no means the goal of
life. Go forward, and then you will be able to perform unselfish work. But again I say that it
is most difficult to perform unselfish work. Therefore with love and longing in your heart
pray to God: 'O God, grant me devotion at Thy Lotus Feet and reduce my worldly duties.
Please grant me the boon that the few duties I must do may be done in a detached spirit.' If
you go still farther you will realize God.

This is a Great lesson from the Master.As our Sadhana progresses we are bound to experience Peace,Silence,Love,flood of knowledge where we understand the deeper sense of the words of Great ones-all these are inevitable.Yet none of these should make us think that we have 'arrived'.We also have to keep these experiences to ourselves and not go overboard declaring our attainment.This outgoing mind is precisely that needs to be subdued. :)
Sri Ramakrishna says:
"Sattvic bhakti is known to God alone. It makes no outward display. A man with such
devotion loves privacy. Perhaps he meditates inside the mosquito net, where nobody sees
him. When this kind of devotion is awakened, one hasn't long to wait for the vision of God
.
The appearance of the dawn in the east shows that the sun will rise before long."
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 27, 2012, 12:27:35 PM
Dear Friends,
        :)

Scriptures state that you are Awareness & not body or mind. So thats it. What more ?
You are that!

Mentally you differ from others.
Physically also we differ.

But whole objective of sadhana is to leave the mind where it is and the body where it is. Thats all.

All speaking has to happen from "Buddhi" alone. Self does not speak.

The problem in saying "Oh He was so extraordinary, but i am too ordinary... how can i be Self" is its not sadhana.
because... Self is just the same in both. What was "Extraordinary" in him was only his body-mind and some activities. He himself never
said that those belonged to "Self".
well, me too... what ever is ordinary is only the body - mind and their activities. why take that upon my own head and say "oh, i am ordinary" ?

Harmony in thought and activities ... both are at the relative level. True it is that such a harmony is required. And more importantly... Rght now, I am Self. Thats the point.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 27, 2012, 01:00:57 PM
:) again, in order to create harmony between living and thoughts ... one is not supposed to lower the thoughts... take up your living and own up your true nature as Self.

and whats the point in creating exotic ideas about saints. saint is one who knows he is Self and not body-mind. thats it.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 27, 2012, 03:03:03 PM
Friends,
An excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
"The rishis of old attained the Knowledge of Brahman. One cannot have this so long as
there is the slightest trace of worldliness. How hard the rishis laboured! Early in the
morning they would go away from the hermitage, and would spend the whole day in
solitude, meditating on Brahman. At night they would return to the hermitage and eat a
little fruit or roots. They kept their minds aloof from the objects of sight, hearing, touch,
and other things of a worldly nature. Only thus did they realize Brahman as their own inner
consciousness.
"But in the Kaliyuga, man, being totally dependent on food for life, cannot altogether shake
off the idea that he is the body. In this state of mind it is not proper for him to say, 'I am
He.'
When a man does all sorts of worldly things, he should not say, 'I am Brahman.' Those
who cannot give up attachment to worldly things, and who find no means to shake off the
feeling of 'I', should rather cherish the idea 'I am God's servant; I am His devotee.' One can
also realize God by following the path of devotion."

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 27, 2012, 03:11:23 PM
Friends,
An excerpt from Talks with Ramana Maharshi:
The bubbles are different from one another and numerous, but the
ocean is only one. Similarly the egos are many, whereas the Self
is one and only one.
When told that you are not the ego, realise the Reality. Why do you
still identify yourself with the ego? It is like saying, “Don’t think
of the monkey while taking medicine” - it is impossible. Similarly
it happens with common folk. When the Reality is mentioned why
do you continue to meditate Sivoham or Aham Brahmasmi? The
significance must be traced and understood. It is not enough to
repeat the bare words or think of them
.
Reality is simply the loss of the ego. Destroy the ego by seeking its
identity. Because the ego is no entity it will automatically vanish
and Reality will shine forth by itself. This is the direct method
.

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 27, 2012, 04:10:37 PM
Sri Bhagavan said in the last verse of Ulladu Narpadu:

If asked, 'Which of these three is final liberation: With form, without form, or with-and-without form?' - I say
"Liberation is the extinction of the ego which inquires - 'With form, without form, or with-and-without form'?"

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 27, 2012, 04:16:15 PM
Friends,
An excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
The singing parrot, when at
ease, repeats the holy names of Radha and Krishna, but when it is seized by a cat it utters
its own natural sound; it squawks, 'Kaa! Kaa!' :)

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 27, 2012, 04:27:38 PM
:)

When Ramakrishna says "a person with worldliness should not say "I AM BRAHMAN"" ... :) it means therefore eliminate worldliness .... not stop saying "I AM BRAHMAN"!!

BTW ... its never worldly activities, but the worldliness that is a trouble. Ex: king janaka.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 27, 2012, 04:29:31 PM
Dear Subramanian,
        :) tell me what is death of ego ? Is ego alive now ?

How do u correlate ur understanding with Annamalai swami's statement [first page of final talk] : mind is like a shadow, trying to kill it is like burrying a shadow. ?



Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 27, 2012, 04:34:44 PM
Friends,
An excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
Example of Janaka
"Some members of the Brahmo Samaj said to me: 'Sir, our attitude toward the world is that
of King Janaka. Like him, we want to enjoy the world in a detached spirit.' I said to them:
'To live in the world in a detached spirit is very difficult. By merely saying so you cannot
be a King Janaka. How much austerity Janaka practised!
How long he remained in one
posture, with head down and feet up! You don't have to practise these extreme disciplines.
But you need sadhana, you should live in solitude. You may lead the life of a householder
after having attained divine knowledge and love in solitude. Milk turns into curd only when
it is not disturbed. The curd does not set if the milk is often moved from place to place or is
too much disturbed
.'
"On account of his detachment from the world Janaka was also known as the 'Videha', that
is, one free from consciousness of the body
. Though living in the world, he moved about as
a jivanmukta, a free soul living in a body. But for most people freedom from bodyconsciousness
is something very far off
. Intense spiritual discipline is necessary.

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on May 27, 2012, 04:36:09 PM
Quote from Sri Udai:
"When Ramakrishna says "a person with worldliness should not say "I AM BRAHMAN"" ... it means therefore eliminate worldliness .... not stop saying "I AM BRAHMAN."

Yes. That means one should eliminate worldliness and abide as the Self or Brahman. What use saying or repeating parrot-like, "I am Brahman, I am Brahman"?

Anil
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 27, 2012, 04:41:30 PM
Dear Ravi,
        :) I almost knew that would be your next statement :)

Anyways, because its difficult does not offer a reason for the person to chose worldliness to "I AM BRAHMAN"
Practise meditation also. who stops ? But dont stop saying "I AM BRAHMAN" because leaving worldliness is a little difficult.
Remember the story of Vivekananda ... a tiger caught hold of a monk who was meditating "Sivoham" and even to the end he was saying that alone ?
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 27, 2012, 04:41:58 PM
Friends,
A man going about saying 'I am a Man' 'I am a Man'!
We know 'yes,he is quite a man' :)
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 27, 2012, 04:43:17 PM
Dear Anil,
      :) Right, so "Be it" and say! Say it to the mind! Constantly, again and again. Dont leave a chance to say it. And as you say, be it.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 27, 2012, 04:45:27 PM
udai,
Do we require such far fetched examples?Just reflect how we behave here.the stamp of the 'ego' is all over the place.only we are too blind to notice it :)
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 27, 2012, 04:46:16 PM
Dear Ravi,
      :) ITs the other way round that friend was telling another friend "You are a Man! "! :) . Taht we are all men!
Lion telling a lion which was brought up amongst sheeps : U r a lion. The Lion is convinced.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 27, 2012, 04:49:14 PM
Dear Ravi,
        :) The stamp of ego is not determined by an activity. Its how one may interpret it!
Ramana did something ... u may interpret it as ego or just avoiding something ! :) its all about how one interprets an activity.

Why someone did something ... only he can tell. And Even if ego makes a person do something ... he is supposed to undo that ego with "I AM BRAHMAN" understanding [otherwise u will talk abt men and women :) ] ... and not dispense of the "I AM BRAHMAN" understanding for future ... if its ego, its more important that he understands
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 27, 2012, 04:50:49 PM
udai/friends,
An excerpt from Talks with Ramana Maharshi:
When the one Real ‘I’ remains alone, it will not be saying; “I am
Brahman”.
Does a man go on repeating “I am a man”? Unless
he is challenged, why should he declare himself a man? Does
anyone mistake oneself for a brute, that he should say “No. I am
not a brute; I am a man”? Similarly, Brahman or ‘I’ being alone,
there is no one there to challenge it and so there is no need to be
repeating “I am Brahman”
.

What keeps insisting 'I am Brahman' is the ego. :)
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 27, 2012, 04:54:48 PM
Dear friends, I don't believe that statements like soham, sivoham, aham brahmasmi, tat tvam asi and so on are correct when we talk about the so called 'realization'. All these are just dual expression of the Truth. "I am He" - 2 persons, "I am Shiva" - 2 persons, "I am Brahman" - 2 persons, "You are That" - subject and an object. Everything is reflection of the ego. But a firm conviction "I am Brahman" to sannyasi wuould very helpful because it diverts him from what he is not - the body, the world and so on. At the end sannyasi must give up even the idea that he is Brahman and to let himself to be what He IS! Honestly I don't think that these sacred phrases are for everyone!
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 27, 2012, 04:55:28 PM
Dear Ravi,
      :) If the Real "I" remains alone ... it wont lose its Reality if it says "I AM BRAHMAN" :) ... even when the body - mind voice out "I AM BRAHMAN" ... one does not say "I AM SAYING IT". Kartrtvam is absent.
If you read Ramana ... he himself said several times "I AM SELF" ... that did not make him lose his Self.

Also : A jnani cannot be recognized by his activities
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 27, 2012, 04:56:35 PM
Dear Ramana,
     :) dont believe it. Be it. The saints were no fools to present those statements. They have to be lived.
One may use the words as reminders during sadhana.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 27, 2012, 04:59:23 PM
Dear Ravi and srkudai,

Sri Bhagavan says in Ulladu Narpadu Verse 32:

When the Vedas have declared, 'Thou art That'  -- not to seek and find the nature of the Self and abide in it, but to think
'I am that, not this'' - is want of strength. Because, That abides for ever as the Self.

Ulladu is Sat Vastu. uLLal  is 'thinking'.

Ulladu can be attained only by abiding with it and not thinking about it.

uLLal or unaRchi is mental activity, feeling.

To abide in the Self without thinking is abidance.

Arunachala Siva.   
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 27, 2012, 05:01:34 PM
Quote
dont believe it. Be it. The saints were no fools to present those statements. They have to be lived.
One may use the words as reminders during sadhana.

Yes. The saints has said that mainly because of us - their pupils. They had in some way to explain, even intellectually, dualistically what they have experienced. But I am sure that They have realized that They are not this or that. So when they were referring "I am Brahman", they were meaning that which is beyond words and explanations. All words, names and so on are from the mind, for the mind.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 27, 2012, 05:03:47 PM
Yes Abide as Self. Thats it. But if u try, the mind will try to draw u out. Thats when u have to revert back.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 27, 2012, 05:11:22 PM
Dear Subramanaian ,
            :) If you have read Annamalai Swami's Final Talks: Pls refer Page 77

about the story of a person who said his wife was widowed.

and he continues ... "Then we grieve about our state, lamenting "I am bound, I am unenlightenened; I am not free"
and even when the guru comes along and says "u r the Self; u r free. Why do u..."

u tell him" ... i trust my senses / mind..."

:)
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 27, 2012, 05:46:08 PM
Dear srkudai,

The story told by Annamalai Swami is to highlight that one does not believe in the Real state (that he is alive and his wife is
not a widow) but thinks because somebody said, Your wife is widowed.

In the same vein, even though we are the Self, we THINK THAT WE HAVE NOT REALIZED THE SELF.  Even if one thinks He has realized
the Self, he has not realized. Because one cannot attain the Self by thinking about it.

The thinking obstructs our experience.  That is why in Ulladu Narpadu, Sri Bhagavan  said: The Self is there ever as the one
and only Satvastu within you. But you experience it without thinking.

Ulladu Narpadu, first benedictory verse says:

Can there be awareness of Existence as 'I am' (astitvam) but for the existence of Sat (Reality) ' That which is'? As
the Sat  - That which is' abides in the Heart, free of thoughts; It is called the Heart. Who is the one who meditates on It
and how? Know then,m to be as 'It is' in the Heart, free of thoughts, is to contemplate on It truly.

Both unrealized and realized have this Sat Vastu in Heart. But the unrealized tries to think about it and it can never be
achieved by him.  The Realized one simply abides in It, without any effort towards thinking about it.

Ahamj Sphurana is the Sat.

Unarvu is experience. Unarchi is thinking or feeling.

Arunachala Siva.           
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 27, 2012, 06:00:49 PM
Friends,
Sages have advised in many ways to suit different temperaments and maturity level of the seekers.It is upto us to put into practise.One thing is clear-as long as the ego is not subdued,nothing is of any avail.One has nothing to prove to others.
Even when the Sages advocated 'I am Brahman' as an aid,it is only to employ it as an aid in one's Sadhana not to go about proving it to others.It is the prompting of the Ego that does that ,and one is utterly blind to that. :)
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 27, 2012, 06:08:11 PM
Friends,
In this excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna,the Master clearly points the difference between a Jnani(Intellectual)and a VijnAni(Realized one):
MASTER (to the devotees): "There is a difference between, a sadhu endowed with jnana
and one endowed with vijnana
. The jnani sadhu has a certain way of sitting. He twirls his
moustache and asks the visitor, 'Well, sir! Have you any question to ask?'
But the man who
always sees God and talks to Him intimately has an altogether different nature. He is
sometimes like an inert thing, sometimes like a ghoul, sometimes like a child, and
sometimes like a madman.

"When he is in samadhi, he becomes unconscious of the outer world and appears inert. He
sees everything to be full of Brahman-Consciousness; therefore he behaves like a ghoul. He
is not conscious of the holy and the unholy. He does not observe any formal purity. To him
everything is Brahman. He is not aware of filth as such. Even rice and other cooked food
after a few days become like filth.

This distinction is something that is unmistakeable.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 27, 2012, 06:17:01 PM
Dear Ravi,


This reminds me a story. I think it refers to Sorupananda and Tattuvaraya or some other pair of contemporary saints.

Once a rich landlord had arranged for a feast to everyone, including sadhus. The Sadhu who has realized the Self
did not attend. But he went to the left over leaf plates and was eating the food from the leaves along with dogs
which were sharing the food!

The other saint who has got pomp and glory but no Swarupa Jnanam, was coming on a palanquin to eat food from
the rich lord's party. As soon as he saw the Sage 1, he jumped out of palanquin and said: What Sir? Is it not
atrocious? You are taking food from the left over leaf plates along with the company of dogs?

The Sage 1 replied: Is it also not atrocious to come to a feast on a palanquin with four people carrying your body?

The Sage 2 became speechless.

Seshdari Swamigal used to take food along with dogs and other beggars.

Sri Bhagavan took food in various manner:

1. Bhiksha food in the initial stages.

2. Mother Azhagamma's cooked food in Skandasramam.

3. Regular food along with many many devotees in the present foot hills Asramam.

Arunachala Siva.     
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 27, 2012, 06:28:20 PM
udai,
"A jnani cannot be recognized by his activities"
Sure.Yet an ajnani is easily recognized by his activities.It has the stamp of ego written all over it. :)
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 27, 2012, 06:55:14 PM
Dear Ravi,

Yes. A Jnani can never be found only by his activities. When Sri Bhagavan by mistake stamped on the hornet of bees,
the bees came out in large numbers, and Sri Bhagavan was simply showing His legs, so that bees would sting it. Because
He has knowingly or unknowingly done harm to the bees. The surprising thing is, the bees stung only His  left leg and thigh,
since that leg only had stamped on the hornet. Pazhani Swami who later applied oil and removed the sting one by one with
a forceps said: Bhagavan! Why did not come away immediately? Sri Bhagavan said: How can I? I had done a mistake. I should
take the punishment!

Muruganar later years has written a poem about this incident.

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 27, 2012, 07:13:32 PM
Subramanian,
Great ones like sri Ramakrishna and sri Bhagavan are just incomparable.As  Professor John Henry Wright of Harvard University told Swami Vivekananda: "To ask you, Swami, for your credentials is like asking the sun about its right to shine."
Even foolish and insensitive people felt the unmistakeable power of the Presence.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 27, 2012, 07:15:33 PM
Dear Ravi,

About the hornet incident:

Muruganar sings in verse 815 of Guru Vachaka Kovai:

pacchaiilai thooRu padarntha pudhar enRu eNNi
vaichidungAl veenga vari kathaNdu* kottalume
nicchayamAi Venkata nin nenjam oppi seithAR pol
thaRcheyaAi nerntha thavRRukku iranglenna?

O Venkata, you stamped on the hornet's nest but it was accidental and not voluntary. (* kathaNdu = bees).
Why did you show your legs as if you have deliberately done that act? Why are you regretting for the mistake
not deliberately done?

Sri Bhagavan replied:

Guru Vachaka Kovai - Sri Bhagavan's Verse 16:

pacchilaikat koode padarnthathan koodu ulaiya
vaicchidu kAl veenga varik kathaNdu kottidinum
thaRcheyalAi nerntha thavRenum thAnirangum
accheyalum inRel avan manathin thanmai enne?

What is the true nature of one's mind if he does not sympathize for even accidental stamping on hornet's nest?
Should not one show compassion for the bees and take the punishment even if it is accidental? It not what is
the nature of his mind?

   
*

In today's India, where scam to the extent of Rs. 2.76 lac crores happen even without the slightest regret from those
who had perpetrated it, such actions of Maharshi will look only as a madman's act. What to do? Globalization's first
casualty is Indian's honesty and integrity.

*

In Bangalore, one super market owner drove out about 70 retail vendors of vegetables, fruits, and flowers, from business,
in the same road, by allegedly bribing, some corporator, who ordered removal of these shops, since they were selling on
platforms.

Now the supermarket has got more sales and they sell at higher prices since there is no competitor.

*

Satyam eva Jayate!

Arunachala Siva.     
 
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 27, 2012, 07:20:27 PM
Subramanian,
The Story of Sri Bhagavan stepping on the Hornet's nest is indeed a moving one.If one just contemplates this alone,one learns a great deal.I have posted it in the Thread - Stories on Bhagavan.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 28, 2012, 10:23:14 AM
Dear Ravi,
        :) u r contradicting urself.
if an ajnani can be recognized from activities... then he who is not an ajnani becomes a jnani.

jnana / ajnana is not about an activity. Mohammad married several times. Jesus remained a celibate and yet spread the religion. Ramana remained stone like, never cared to spread any religion. Sikh prophets were warriors. Rama , janka were kings.

Its all in your interpreation. If you want to interpret some action as ajnani's action u may... for your own ego satisfaction.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 28, 2012, 10:29:12 AM
Dear Subramanian,
    this idea that thoughts obstruct abiding as Self is incorrect.. here is annamalai swami on that:

Everything we see in this waking state is a dream. These dreams are our thoughts made manifest. Bad thoughts make bad dreams and good thoughts make good dreams and if u have no thoughts, u dont dream at all. But even if u do dream, u must understand that ur dream is also the Self. u dont have to supress thoughts or be absolutely thoughtelss to abide as Self. IF you know that even your waking and sleeping dreams are Self, the thoughts and the dreams they produce can go on.


Final Talks: page 24. [for you i quote. I myself do not depend on quotes from others. Abidance in Self is itself the best way to see things.]

Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 28, 2012, 10:32:31 AM
One needs to stop believing one is non-Self. If someone speaks of sadhana without taking oneself to be the Self, one is fooling himself and also the others. Here again is a quote from Annamalai Swami Fintal talks [page 6]

Quote
"how to give up the false idea that mind is real ?"

The same way that u give up any wrong idea. u simply stop believing it. if this does not happen spontaneously when you hear the truth from a teacher, keep telling urself "I am not the mindl i am not the mind. There is no mind, there is no mind. Consciousness Alone Exists". If you have a firm conviction that this is the truth, one day this firm conviction will mature to a point where it becoems ur direct experience.

-------------> if someone is not ready to agree that he is Awarness / Self and not mind ... !! what sadhana would they do ?
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 28, 2012, 10:34:31 AM
And most important regarding killing mind, page 1, Annamalai Swami Final talks.

"Mind  is like a shadow. Attempts to catch it and control it are futile. They are just shadows chasing shadows. ..."

And the last page of the same book ... wonderful line:
page 96:
"If the mind does not exist, it cannot die... either quickly or slowly"
---> Firmness of Conviction is must.


And all this is from annamalai swami. not me. I quote them for your reference alone.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 28, 2012, 10:40:11 AM
udai,
"jnana / ajnana is not about an activity"
An excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
Haven't you noticed that, if you read a little English, you at once begin to utter English words: Foot fut
it mit? Then you put on boots and whistle a tune, and so on. It all goes together. Or, if a
scholar studies Sanskrit, he will at once rattle off Sanskrit verses. If you are in bad
company, then you will talk and think like your companions. On the other hand, when you
are in the company of devotees, you will think and talk only of God.

There is a very definitive way in which the upadhi of an ajnani manifests through his actions.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 28, 2012, 10:43:23 AM
Dear Ravi,
        :) Something happens and u interpret it as "ajnana" thats all.
its your choice whether u want to interpret it that way or not. Some foolish fellow interpreted the actions of Sri Ramakrishna as homo-sexual in nature!! He was foolish, his interpretation was idiotic. So there is every possibility that even a jnani's actions can be misunderstood. ultimately its ur mind that interprets.

Who is not Self here. So why interpret everything as ajnani ? and then create grades and superiority ?

Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 28, 2012, 10:48:51 AM
Udai,
No point in all this vain talk.Our actions speak louder than words. :)
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 28, 2012, 10:50:25 AM
:) Actions dont speak.
u interpret those actions and that interpretation is what u consider a speach.

Swami Vivekananda said ... we see the world as we see ourselves. a child sees a snake but has no fear. because inside him there is no fear. Thats very correct.

:) Actions are dumb. And i do not interpret ur calling this "Suddenly vain" :) ... as ego or no ego.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 28, 2012, 11:19:39 AM
Udai,
"Actions are dumb. And i do not interpret ur calling this "Suddenly vain"
Friend,It is not sudden as you think.I have not minced words in my previous posts as well in this thread and elsewhere.Only they have not been understood.Actions are not dumb as you would like to believe!
The 'Ego' requires a sledge hammer treatment sometimes. :)
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 28, 2012, 11:24:16 AM
:) Actions never speak Ravi. u interpret them.
thats why ... Ramakrishna says the story of a person sitting under a tree on street.
one guy thinks "he was drunk whole night and so is lying there under the tree"
another person thinks "this guy should be a saint, he is meditating"
the guy's actions were nothing. he just was there.

people interpret according to their dispositions.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 28, 2012, 11:26:48 AM
same thing with events. remember the story of a person who had 6 horses and one day they bring a 7th horse with them from the forest ? and people said "u r lucky" and the guy said "is that so ?"
and then his son broke his leg riding the horse. and people said "u r unlucky" and he said "is that so ?"
... i am sure u remember this story. its also from ramakrishna !
and so events/action have nothing to say.
thats why two people see the same thing and have different expressions and understandings.
someone meets ramakrishna and comes back saying he is just a mad man. another person comes back enlightened.
so its never the actions / events that speak. u subjectively interpret them according to ur disposition.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 28, 2012, 11:28:42 AM
And so are all experiences.
u have experiences. and then u interpret them.

someone was seeing a light every day in meditation. and then he is told that seeing light is a sign of spirituality... now suddenly he becomes a "spiritual person" in his view. and he is proud!
so even experiences are dumb!!

someone eats a ladoo and feels happy. another person curses his fate for getting a ladoo ... he hates ladoo.
so its just the interpretation.

so actions, events and experiences are what u interpret them.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 28, 2012, 11:37:49 AM
udai,
Let us realize Truth for ourself.
Here is a wonderful verse of Thayumanavar,ninth verse of 'Mounaguru Vannakkam' where he describes the subtle functioning of the Ego:
ஆங்கார மானகுல வேடவெம் பேய்பாழ்த்த
       ஆணவத் தினும்வலிதுகாண்
    அறிவினை மயக்கிடும் நடுவறிய வொட்டாது
       யாதொன்று தொடினும் அதுவாய்த்
தாங்காது மொழிபேசும் அரிகரப் பிரமாதி
       தம்மொடு சமானமென்னுந்
    தடையற்ற தேரிலஞ் சுருவாணி போலவே
       தன்னிலசை யாதுநிற்கும்
ஈங்காரெ னக்குநிகர் என்னப்ர தாபித்
       திராவணா காரமாகி
    இதயவெளி யெங்கணுந் தன்னரசு நாடுசெய்
       திருக்கும்இத னொடெந்நேரமும்
வாங்காநி லாஅடிமை போராட முடியுமோ
       மௌனோப தேசகுருவே
    மந்த்ரகுரு வேயோக தந்த்ரகுரு வேமூலன்
       மரபில்வரு மௌன குருவே!

Know ye, mightier far than accursed anava,
Is ahankara, the murderous hunter devil.
It will befog reason,
It will not let you know the right.
Whatever it touches
It identifies the self with that
And will say unbearable things.
It will claim that it is equal to
Hari, Hara, Brahma and the rest of the Gods.
It will stand like the axle pin
Of a moving car,
Itself immobile in the center of things.
It will proclaim itself:
''Who is here equal to me?''
And filled with Ravana like spirit
It will establish its tyrannous rule
In the domain of the heart.
How can this poor slave
Be contending with it all the time?
Oh! Guru that instructs in silentness!
Oh! Mantra Guru! Oh, Yoga Tantra Guru!
Mauna Guru that comes in the line of Mula the Holy!

It is important for a sadhaka to recognize the subtle ways of the Ego and focus on his Sadhana ,than be eager and go overboard to write commentaries and give talks how the Self alone is and trying to convince others! :)
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 28, 2012, 11:43:33 AM
:) Now !! IF thats the case why did you discuss at all? if not here, elsewhere ?

its for oneself to recognize not for others to tell !!
one monitors one's own mind, not others'.

Who says writing is not a sadhana BTW ? :) thats ur new interpretation ?
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 28, 2012, 12:03:57 PM
Further ... Firm Conviction that I AM SELF is liberation/realization of Truth.
if one dismisses this itself in the beginning ... what is the chance of Realizing it ?

Ego keeps popping up and convinces u otherwise and u have to undo that with I AM SELF not body/mind. Thats inquiry [again from annamalai swami... i dont want to keep quoting. one can refer final talks !]

if one does not do that ... sitting in meditation is also pampering of ego still!  nothing more!!

Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 28, 2012, 12:07:39 PM
udai,
Why did I discuss?I am not against Discussion but obviously Arguementation does not help.
No monitoring here! :)

"Who says writing is not a sadhana BTW ?"
No harm in writing if it helps one;but why publish if it be Sadhana?What do you think of your commentary on Hanuman chalisa? :)

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 28, 2012, 12:14:03 PM
:)
1. I write coz i have something to share! :). I share my understanding. And its my sadhana and my problem :)! :) I do not seek approval for that anyways.  But i do not claim its ego work either.

My commentary Hanuman Chalisa is a Reveling in Awareness or Brahman! What else to think of it ? :)

2. How did you conclude arguments wont help ? some nice book told u ? What is discussion ? say something and everyone says "yes yes!" ? and then say something and people disagree ... it becomes argument!!?? then i would say arguments would do u more benefit.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 28, 2012, 12:35:06 PM
udai,
"My commentary Hanuman Chalisa is a Reveling in Awareness or Brahman! What else to think of it ?"

You mean your first version or the latest one! :)
Brahman seems to be quite changeable. :)

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 28, 2012, 12:40:35 PM
:) Both ! Only different words :)!
Brahman is not changing ... the words change.

Sharing can be done different ways. The Revelings are just the same.

The second one presents the Same truth in a slightly different way.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 28, 2012, 12:45:01 PM
Once you are able to abide as Self, everything you say will point to the same thing.
Perhaps some times u say it better, and other times not so well : as God wills.

:) and you are not the doer ... so u urself can read them and benefit. They come from u
u remain a mere instrument. and when that does not happen u remain reveling as u r !!

....
yatra yatra mano yaati tatra tatra samadhinah ... wherever the mind is, there is Samadhi!

Know you are Self , everything will fall in place.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 28, 2012, 12:48:05 PM
udai,
I will wind up with this excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
Story of the Bhagavata scholar
MASTER: "Listen to a story. There was a king who used daily to hear the Bhagavata
recited by a pundit. Every day, after explaining the sacred book, the pundit would say to the
king, 'O King, have you understood what I have said?' And every day the king would reply,
'You had better understand it first yourself.' The pundit would return home and think: 'Why
does the king talk to me that way day after day? I explain the texts to him so clearly, and he
says to me, "You had better understand it first yourself." What does he mean?' The pundit
used to practise spiritual discipline. A few days later he came to realize that God alone is
real and everything else-house, family, wealth, friends, name, and fame-illusory. Convinced
of the unreality of the world, he renounced it. As he left home he asked a man to take this
message to the king: 'O King, I now understand.'

Wish you the Very Best.
Namaskar
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 28, 2012, 12:54:24 PM
:)

King was always saying "u realize first" ... "first ur turn " ;) ? the bhagavata scholar was first not realized and then realized. king kept saying "u do it first" ??

Brother ... Self knowledge is not to judge the other person. Its for oneself. Even as i write ... those writings help some, some say they are not helpful... its just their respective outlooks. if one takes them well, one is freed. i know ... coz i see. dont judge. a realized person if he shares his understanding will not become unrealized. a realized person need not go away like that scholar. its silly to think only a particular lifestyle makes one wise. be wise and chose ur lifestyle.
suka was a tyagi, janaka and rama were kings managing huge kingdoms, krishna ws involved in all kinds of activities including companionship with women and politics and yet remained untouched. so ... lifestyle does not make one wise. be wise and chose ur lifestyle. be wise and then teach or remain silent. ur choice. dont think that someone is wise coz he is silent or someone else is unwise coz he speaks.

In your story the king was wasting his time.

Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 28, 2012, 01:51:05 PM
Dear skudai,

You say 'thoughts do not obstruct the Self.'  Now let us see what are thoughts -  This can be known only when you sit
for a silent meditation. If one is not a meditator for long time, then he will find thoughts rush up by dozens. The mind is
only a bundle of thoughts. to attempt to push through the barrage of thoughts is unsuccessful. If one can by any means
abide in the Self, it is good. For those who are unable to do so, chanting or Japa is prescribed. It is like giving a piece of
chain to an elephant to hold in its trunk. The trunk of the elephant is usually restless. It   puts it out in all directions when taken
out in the streets of the town. If given a chain to carry, the restlessness is checked. Similarly with the restless mind with a jungle
of thoughts is made to engage on a single thought. It thus becomes peaceful. It does not mean that peace is gained without a
prolonged struggle. The other thoughts must be fought out.

Now what is the root of all these thoughts? "I - thought". This I-thought is the starting point. This is called Ego. This ego must
be rooted out to attain the Peace or Realization. If one wants to abide in the thought free state, a struggle is inevitable. One
must fight one's way through  before regaining one's Primal State. If one succeeds in the fight and reaches the goal, the enemy
namely, the thoughts will all subside in the Self and disappear entirely. The thoughts are the enemy. They amount to the creation
of the ego, the world and even the universe. In their absence none of these are there. The Bliss of the Self is the single Being
only.

Dear srkudai, you have in the past posted some commentary on Upadesa Saram. What does Upadesa Saram say?



3. Distinterested action (nishkamya karmam)
Surrendered to the Lords
Purifies the mind and points
The way to Moksha.

4. This is certain.
Worship, praise, and meditation,
Being the work of body, speech and mind,
Are steps for orderly ascent.

5. Better than hymns of praise
Is repetition of the Name
Better low voiced than loud
But best of all
Is  meditation in the mind.

8. Better than viewing Him as Other
Indeed the noblest attitude of all
Is to hold Him as the 'I' within,
The very 'I'.

9. Abidance in pure Being
Transcending thought through love intense
Is the very essence
Of supreme devotion.

10. Absorption in the heart of Being
Whence we sprang,
Is the path of action, of devotion
Of union and of knowledge.

14. Breath controlled and thought restrained
The mind turned one way inward
Fades and dies.

15. Mind extinct, the mighty seer
Returns to his own natural being
And has no action to perform.

16. It is true Knowledge
For the mind to turn away
From outer objects and behold
Its own effulgent form,.

17. When unceasingly the mind
Scans its own form
There is nothing of the kind
For everyone the path direct is open.

18. Thoughts make up the mind;
And of all thoughts the 'I' thought is the root.
What is called the mind is but the notion of 'I'.

19. When one turns within and searches
Whence this 'I' thought arises
The shamed 'I' vanishes --
And the wisdom's quest begins,

20. Where this 'I' notion faded
Now there as I, as I, arises
The One, the very Self, the Infinite.

Arunachala Siva.   
 
       
   
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 28, 2012, 02:09:21 PM
:) Dear Subramanian,
        I never denied Japa / any practise. I do not, coz i myself do japa every day.

I just posted what Annamalai swami said. Please read them again and see what he is saying. I have specifically quoted them here for you alone.

The only point to understand is all Sadhana is done with Conviction that I AM BRAHMAN. The sadhana only serves to firm up this conviction... once one is able to remain Effortlessly in it, sadhana is no more required.

Thoughts need not be fought against ! Fighting with thoughts is like fighting a shadow.

Without understanding I AM BRAHMAN and without firmly asserting it, there is no sadhana.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 28, 2012, 02:30:59 PM
BTW, its not me who said "ur thoughts do not obstruct"... its directly from annamalai swami's final talks u can refer to it.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 28, 2012, 02:47:54 PM
Dear srkudai,

I shall check up once again Final Talks and tell you in what context, Annamalai Swami said that.

Arunachala Siva. 
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 28, 2012, 02:51:34 PM
The context is "when one sees the world as a dream ..."

i quoted it earlier.
The point is one needs to be firm ... not meek ... if i hold onto something ... it should be Drdha ... Firm ... Totally into it. Not half way. I am Self and not body-mind needs very strong assertion. one should not be fooled by mind when it says "if i get one more hour of sleep ill be better". one should be able to smile at it and say "u who ?"

:)
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 28, 2012, 03:43:50 PM
Dear srkudai,

Question:  How does the mind project this world I see in front of me?

A.S: Everything we see in this waking state is a dream. These dreams are our thoughts made manifest. Bad thoughts
make bad dreams and good thoughts make good dreams. And if you have NOT THOUGHTS, you don't dream at all. But
even if you do dream, you must understand THAT YOUR DREAM IS ALSO THE SELF. You don't have to suppress thoughts
or be absolutely thoughtless to abide as the Self. If YOU KNOW THAT EVEN YOUR WAKING AND SLEEPING DREAMS ARE THE
SELF, then the thoughts and the dreams they produce can go on. They will not be a problem for you any more. Just BE THE
SELF AT ALL TIMES. In this state, you will know that everything that appears to you is just a dream.

This is from Final Tallks, Page 24/25. What does Annamalai Swami say here? He says: IF YOU KNOW THAT EVEN YOUR WAKING
AND SLEEPING DREAMS ARE THE SELF, THEN THE THOUGHTS AND THE DREAMS CAN GO ON. THEY WILL NOT BE A PROBLEM ANYMORE.
JUST BE THE SELF AT ALL TIMES. IN THIS STATE YOU WILL KNOW THAT EVERYTHING THAT APPEARS TO YOU IS JUST A DREAM.

Thus, Annamalai Swami emphasizes that only when someone always knows that even waking state and dream states are the Self,
thoughts would can go on and it will not be a problem for him anymore. What he means therefore is: if you do not understand THAT ALL IS THE SELF, then the thoughts would obstruct your realization and you have to do something about the thoughts.

*

In page 36, ibid, he again says:

Bhagavan is always present, inside you and in front of you. IF YOU DON'T COVER THE VISION OF BHAGAVAN WITH YOUR EGO,
THAT WILL BE ENOUGH. The ego is the 'I am the body' idea. Remove this idea and you shine as the Self. That is the only thing
you need to do in this life. The various events of your life.... are all destined.

*

In Page 50 of ibid, he again says:

If the meditation is not continuous enough, the other part of the mind becomes predominant. You have to overpower this mind
that is taking you away from yourself by repeatedly doing this self enquiry.

*

In Page 53, ibid, he says:

The mind that we use for self inquiry is the pure sattvic mind. By using this sattvic mind we do self inquiry to remove the
impure mind, which is rajas and tamas. If you keep on doing self inquiry, with the sattvic mind, ultimately this sattvic mind
will be dissolved in the Self.

*

Again in page 65, ibid, he says:

Yes. 'I am the body' is not there during sleep. Everyone enjoys sleeping. And the reason we enjoy it is because THERE ARE
NOT THOUGHTS THERE. It is the thoughts that arise subsequently and CAUSED US ALL TROUBLE. There is no separate entity
during sleep because no thought  has arisen to create the image of one. When waking comes, this first rising thought I AM THE
BODY brings separation, doubts and confusion. If you can be without it in the waking state there will be KNOWLEDGE, 'I am Ramana,
I am Arunachala. Everything is myself.' IT IS JUST THIS LIMITING I AM THE BODY THOUGHT THAT KEEPS THIS KNOWLEDGE, THIS AWARENESS FROM YOU.

In the waking state, the Jnani has no limiting thoughts, no ego, that identifies with a name and a form. His state is crystal clear.
Ramana Bhagavan had NO EGO, NO LIMITING THOUGHTS, WHICH IS WHY HE KNEW HIMSELF TO BE THIS PEACE, THIS HAPPINESS.

*

Again in page 66, ibid:

If you completely avoid attachment to your body and mind, then all other attachments will vanish. Identify with That which is
neither body, nor mind and all your attachments will go. You can only put your attention on one thing at a time. While it is on
the mind or the body, it cannot be on the Self. Conversely, if you put attention on the Self and become absorbed in it, there will
be no awareness of the mind and body. .......Resist limiting thoughts. Replace them with thoughts such as All is my self. Everybody
is my self. All animals all things are my self. What you think, you become.

Arunachala Siva.                       

     
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 28, 2012, 03:51:51 PM
So thats what i was saying. the problem is not thoughts. the problem is the idea that all this real.
if we associate reality with all this thats what makes thoughts a problem.

once convinced that all this is a dream... thoughts come and go away of themselves without creating any problems.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 28, 2012, 04:02:13 PM
Friends,
An excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
"As long as a man analyses with the mind, he cannot reach the Absolute. As long as you
reason with your mind, you have no way of getting rid of the universe and the objects of the
senses-form, taste, smell, touch, and sound. When reasoning stops, you attain the
Knowledge of Brahman. Atman cannot be realized through this mind; Atman is realized
through Atman alone. Pure Mind, Pure Buddhi, Pure Atman-all these are one and the same.
"Just think how many things you need to perceive an object. You need eyes; you need light;
you need mind. You cannot perceive the object if you leave out anyone of these three. As
long as the mind functions how can you say that the universe and the 'I' do not exist?
"When the mind is annihilated, when it stops deliberating pro and con, then one goes into
samadhi, one attains the Knowledge of Brahman."

Namaskar
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 28, 2012, 04:13:59 PM
Friends,
An excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
"As long as the upadhi exists there is ignorance. 'I am a scholar', 'I am a jnani', 'I am
wealthy', 'I am honourable', 'I am the master, father, and teacher' -all these ideas are
begotten of ignorance
. 'I am the machine and You are the Operator' - that is Knowledge. In
the state of Knowledge all upadhis are destroyed. When the log is burnt up entirely, there is
no more sound; no heat either. Everything cools down. Peace! Peace! Peace!


Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 28, 2012, 04:15:11 PM
:) Raviji ,
 1.          and annamalai swami says "question of killing mind does not arise if its not alive" :)
so u see a contradiction ?

BTW ... Reasoning has its function. Abiding as Self is may be not directly related. So therefore i do not reject reasoning and its utility! nor do i say reasoning leads to abidance. so the statement by sri ramakrishna does not really contradict anything i said.
what if ... Sri Ramakrishna said something ... u r interpreting it to mean something else or perhaps the writer is misrepresenting ?? then what ?

2. Do u think Ramakrishna is disagreeing to "Sruti-Yukti-Anubhavam" thing ?

Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 28, 2012, 04:17:06 PM
oh! Knowledge means "I am machine and he is the operator" !! i see. meaning 2 always ! Good understanding !!

I like that Peace Peace Peace thing ... it shoud be piece 1 piece 2 and piece 3 as it sounds ! knowledge piece 1, me. knowledge piece 2 he. and knowledge piece 3 : relationship. i am machine and he operates.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 28, 2012, 04:18:47 PM
And Most important: if all quotes of Ramana and Ramakrishna were false !! ?? then ? what would you have to say ?
Lets talk putting aside all that ... for they said something and u have taken something else from it! perhaps they would themselves be confused "how can this be so ? "
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 28, 2012, 04:19:13 PM
udai,
Words are words.What do you mean by killing?
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 28, 2012, 04:20:56 PM
Thats what i am asking: LOL, its not available ... how u kill ? its not there ! Not alive!

u did not still explain about sruti yukti anubhavam thing ! is ramakrishna saying against it ? then shankara and ramakrishna are contradicting !
Ramana says "first understand intellectually... " what abt that ?
can u comment ?

i
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 28, 2012, 04:25:19 PM
udai,
A little while before you have said that you were not satisfied with your words (Hanuman Chalisa)and are again rewriting it.
The words of Sri Ramakrishna or Sri Bhagavan are not like this!They never had to labour like it.These words can be used by others as they are always instinct with the power that expressed them.Please do not think that we are parroting them!There simply is no better way of expressing these deep and rich and meaningful words.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 28, 2012, 04:28:21 PM
udai,
Killing means that it will not arise again and wander along its wanton ways.
That one is not aware of its existence does not mean that it is not there!It is very much there and alive and kicking! :)
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 28, 2012, 04:29:04 PM
:) With respect to writing ... which is relative there is always a better way to do.
for example cooking. Ramana may say ... i cooked this better than yesterday.
writing is like that.

never did i say the first writing was not about SAT . From a long time my writings were accurate. but if given a chance, i would do it again in a different way only. coz the mind then and the mind now changes . Truth expressed will remain same.
but Self is changeless.
one should not confuse the changeless with changing. Thats viveka.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 28, 2012, 04:30:52 PM
just coz a mirage is seen... its not "there"
just coz a dream is seen... its not "there"

seeing, and its "kicking" does not mean its there.

BTW, Annamalai swami says once convinced that this is a dream ... thoughts may be present. its fine.

now does this contradict ? :D LOL! its not samadhi right ? he is saying thoughts may continue if one is convinced its a dream!!
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 28, 2012, 04:34:59 PM
And so ... here is the gamble.

1. if Ramakrishna is saying samadhi is a must: annamalai swami is saying once convinced that this world is a dream, thoughts may continue... it means some contradiction ?

2. Ramakrishna is saying reasoning not required. Shankara saying Sruti-yukti-Anubhavam are required !! contradiction!! ??


3. And Ramana says "First understand intellectually how otherwise will u be it" ... then again contradiction ?

4. If Ramana is saying he has no mind and he "Says" it... !! contradiction ... like i have no tongue.

So .... resolve these for urself. i have none of it.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 28, 2012, 04:38:11 PM
udai,
You were saying that you were writing as part of 'Sadhana',and now you are saying as if it is a hobby.
The words of the Great ones are not like this.
For every thought or idea that we are addressing here-two or three more questions spring forth!We can see how the mind is spreading out and is playing this game! :)
Unless the mind moves in the other direction,and learns to be silent there is no possibility of realization of the self.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 28, 2012, 04:41:26 PM
Dear Ravi,
       :) Instead of answering the point ... u r talking about "my writings"
yet :)

i never said its a mere hobby. its sadhana ... though its not to say that there is something more for me to know.
walking, talking, writing ...everything is a part of sadhana ... its reveling as Self. Abidance ... its called Anubhavam... being Self !

u clearly did not understand that !! :) ... but why this interest in my state ?

Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 28, 2012, 04:52:39 PM
Dear srkudai,

You say that the problem is "the idea that all is real."

Now let us see. Does the world come and tell you that I am real?
                          Does the body come and tell you that I am real?
                          Does the mind come and tell you that I am real?

                          Neither the world, nor the body, nor the mind say that they are all real. It is I who consider them as real.

How does this idea that these world, mind and body are real come? Because of my thoughts, and the first thought as Sri
Bhagavan said is I-thought. I thought is ego. It is the ego that considers the world as real (though the world disappears
in sleep); It is the ego that considers the body as real (body is not felt during deep sleep); It is the ego that considers
the mind as real; Mind is also not there in deep sleep. It is fully active in wakeful state, partially active in dream state
and quietly lies with the Self within in the deep sleep state.

So the question that the idea that all is real stems from I-thought. Ego. That is why Sri Bhagavan Annamalai Swami have said:

If the ego is killed, then there is Realization.

How does a realized Jnani look at things?

Annamalai Swami says in Final Talks page 87:

If you abide as the Self you will see the world as the Self. In fact, there will be no world at all. No world, No Maya, No mind; No distinctions of any kind. It is like the state of seeing only wood in the carved elephant (Tirumular's verse), only threads of dyed
cloth. In that state of being and knowing the Self, ideas of right and wrong, things to do, and things to avoid doing, will vanish.
You will know that they were only mental concepts. In that state you will know that THE MIND IS THE SELF, bondage is the Self,
everything is the Self. With that vision nothing will bind you. Nothing will cause you misery.

The Self may appear as manifest world, as different separate objects, but the underlying Reality, the only Real Substance is
the Self, in which all are appearing and disappearing. Things and people may appear in this Substratum, and you may use them
or interact with them, but your peace will never be disturbed.

When you abide as the Self, there is no one left to choose and decide. Life goes on automatically. .......This perspective will be
yours when you give up or cease to believe the idea, 'I am different from the world.' Giving up this THOUGHT IS A GREAT SADHANA
IN ITSELF. Abandoning the false idea will be enough to give you Peace.

When the thought is there, the world seems to be full of good and bad people. .....When the thought is absent you know them all
to be your own Self.

When there is the knowledge that mind and Self are one, there will be no fights, no struggles, and no attempts to judge and attain.
To have this harmony PLACE THE MIND IN THE SELF AND KEEP IT THERE. This is real meditation.......However until you reach that state...
....avoid bad company and bad thoughts, and try to keep the conviction that nothing is separate from you.

Baby mind is good, Jnani mind is good. 'I am the body' mind is very very bad,

page 95 ibid:

Grace is always present, always available, but for it to be effective, one must be in a state to receive it and make full use of it.
If you want to take a full cup of water from a lake, you have to fully immerse the cup first. If you want to fill your mind with grace,
submerge it fully in the Self. In that place, grace will manifest in you as peace and happiness.

Arunachala Siva.               
             
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 28, 2012, 04:56:49 PM
udai,
"but why this interest in my state "
No,certainly I am not interested in your state,whatever that be!It is by way of explaining why we stick to the words of the Great ones that I have to bring forth  the casual way we use to express ourselves.
It is better to use them rather than try to invent our own and mislead others.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 28, 2012, 04:59:38 PM
:) u have just interpreted some people as greats and then what ever they say ... u pick it!
thats all.
ultimately u have to convert it into ur own anubhavam. not keep pasting their statements.
ur anubhavam alone matters ... now how many saints u keep pasting here. what if they were all wrong ? :D ?
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 28, 2012, 05:11:41 PM
Dear Subramanian,
        :) thats all fine.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 28, 2012, 05:13:19 PM
udai,
"ur anubhavam alone matters"
For whom?Not for others!
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 28, 2012, 05:16:24 PM
:)
if u have seen moon ... u can aid others see it also.
otherwise ppl will keep saying moon is between two branches of a tree ! and no one sees.
neither the one saying nor the other who is following.

Ramakrishna said something ... he said "see through those branches what u see is moon"
and from that day ppl are always seeing between branches. Ramakrishna saw it. he could have
said it different way or the same way.
but others who keep repeating ... just keep repeating.

if u have seen u can convey ... otherwise not.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 28, 2012, 05:22:51 PM
Udai,
May be it is not the moon that you are seeing but only its imperfect  reflection!you go about talking about it!What then?Y
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 28, 2012, 05:24:22 PM
:) Well ... if u see u will know.
no may bes.
if u do not see ... all those may - be.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 28, 2012, 05:26:11 PM
Udai,
How do you know that you are seeing ?
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 28, 2012, 05:27:48 PM
Quote

मुक्ताभिमानी मुक्तो हि बद्धो बद्धाभिमान्यपि।
किवदन्तीह सत्येयं या मतिः सा गतिर्भवेत् ॥१-११॥

If you think you are free you are free. If you think you are bound you are bound. It is rightly said: You become what you think. ॥11॥



Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 28, 2012, 05:29:39 PM
Udai,
What is freedom?
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 28, 2012, 05:29:52 PM
:) ITs Rather "Being"

You too are ... only u r misinterpreting that u r not being that and u r something else.


एको द्रष्टासि सर्वस्य मुक्तप्रायोऽसि सर्वदा ।
अयमेव हि ते बन्धो द्रष्टारं पश्यसीतरम् ॥१-७॥

You are the solitary witness of all that is, almost always free. Your only bondage is understanding the seer to be someone else. ॥7॥

---> I am quoting it only for u... i dont need quotes.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 28, 2012, 05:31:08 PM
Self created ignorance is hard to go.
:)

IF you being Ever Realized think that u r not! imagine how hard it is to see the truth.
if realization is not there and u have to get it ... then probably some way to get it !
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 28, 2012, 05:31:41 PM
What do you mean by being?
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 28, 2012, 05:37:33 PM
Dear Raviji,
          :) Come on ... tell me what u want to say.
do u want me to explain what "be" means ? :D

well ... i know u dont need that explanation :) what do u want ?
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 28, 2012, 05:39:49 PM
udai,
Assume that i am someone like Laksmi,the cow.How do you now tell me what 'Being' is?
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 28, 2012, 05:46:27 PM
:) I'll tell u a story.
Sanata kumara was seated in his small hut.
Siva and Parvati were roaming about in sky... ;) as it often happens in our puranas.
and they saw this sanata kumara. Mother said "He is radiating with knowledge, who is he ?"
Siva said "he is a jnani"
Parvati said "Ok! Lets go and meet him"
Siva said "See , he is a jnani ... he wont offer u a seat also. he is just reveling in himself. he does not care who comes and who goes. "
but mother did not agree. she went with siva to him.

Sanata kumara was sewing his shirt. Mother said "I see you radiating and am very pleased. And Siva himself says you are a great jnani. Ask for some boon from me. i am very pleased".

he said "what to ask mother. i have nothing to ask".

she said "no, please ask something"

he said "ok, if you insist, please make sure that when i insert this needle ... from one side of this shirt, it should come out from the other side"

Mother said "What kind of a boon is that ? u r asking something thats anyways going to happen. ask something else"

He said "Mother, i cannot think of anything. ok ... grant that the sun sets and raises every day".

Mother got furious and said "U r very arrogant. Since u do not want a boon. Take this curse. May you become a camel"

and lo! He became a camel.

A copule of years later ... they were passing by and mother said "Lets go and see how Sanata kumara is doing as a  camel". Siva said "Why do u want to disturb him ? He is a jnani , he wont care about anything ". But she insisted and they reached.

Mother asked "So Sanata Kumara how do you feel now ? You have been in camel form for long. so let me make u a human again"

Sanata Kumara says "Mother ! what is the point in becoming a human? This upadhi is super cool :D ... earlier i had to wear a dress etc ... now i do not even have to wear a dress. Earlier i needed to cook food. Now i no more need to cook anything, i can just eat leaves ! So this upadi i really great! Thank you"

:)

My point is ... what stops u from being a Sanata Kumara ? 
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 28, 2012, 05:50:21 PM
udai,
No story please.stay on course.Answer my question.Explain what being is.As I said ,assume that I am someone like cow Lakshmi.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 28, 2012, 05:53:37 PM
u r not cow lakshmi Ravi.
u r Ravi.
Cow lakshmi did not read Gospel of Ramakrishna.
it would not quote the Gospel.
if would not say "Please do not tell this story" .... tell me what i want.

No!

Cow Lakshmi could get from abhinaya pramanam ... do u get that ? The way a Saint lives, the way he moves, the way he looks ... it conveys a total ease. That itself is sufficient for a person who has some level of clarity. But not for all. If i tell u this, u will start to think its about lifestyle. no. its not about lifestyle. its about something else. The Truth is spoken and left unspoken. both ways the truth may be conveyed.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 28, 2012, 05:56:27 PM
Read that story. its good for u. Also contemplate on it.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 28, 2012, 05:58:04 PM
udai,
So you admit that I am different than cow Laksmi!Whatever happened to the Self that you have realized that seems to have serious limitation in explaining What Being is,seems to be dependant on the listener being a man!Heavily dependent on words! :)
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 28, 2012, 06:03:07 PM
:) Again u r confused.
Vivekam.

Vyavaharika should not be confused from Paramarthika. if u understand that. Otherwise the explanation is ... again in the form of a story. u need vivekam ravi. u r confusing unrealted things, trying to prove something !

Words must be used ... no choice there. r u expecting some miracle ?
what do u expect ? u will go and sit before Ramana and come out Realized ?
Annamalai Swami himself needed lot of words and explanations !! he even read Yoga Vasishta.

And u urself say saints speak differently to different people !! LOL ! atleast to that u should have some commitment.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 28, 2012, 06:08:43 PM
udai,
I know you will come up with this vyavaharika sat idea.My question is different.You are unable to explain Being to someone who does not understand words;Say that I am deaf and dumb.What then?
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 28, 2012, 06:10:56 PM
Dear Ravi,
       :) No one. Not Even Ramana ... could do that.
Otherwise ... why did u need Gospel of Ramana ?
u should have rather ... just understood !!

Words are a must. i never said worldlessly u can explain. wherever u got that idea from. However if the student is very advanced, he may learn from silence & vision. it depends on student's capabilities.

all stories that Ramana miraculously did it are ur imaginations and people's imaginations.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 28, 2012, 06:13:58 PM
otherwise why did krishna teach arjuna BG ?
why did he not sit in silence?
its silly to even think of.
A buddha had to walk all over to teach ! not to remain in silence.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 28, 2012, 06:17:49 PM
udai,
You have reached your limit now!You are now foisting it on Ramana and saying it is not possible for him or anyone else. :)
First admit that you are dependent on words and ideas.Is Being anything to do with any idea?
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 28, 2012, 06:20:31 PM
my question is simple ...
why did Krishna teach BG ?
why not simply remain ?

I did not "Foist" anything ! dont imagine up things.
I added If the student is very advanced .... plz read that part as well.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 28, 2012, 06:21:47 PM
" Hey u r realized? So can u take breath through nose and eat through eyes ?"
No!!
Hey dont tell me ... then u r not realized !! :) u r dependent on mouth for eating and nose for breathing !
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 28, 2012, 06:36:53 PM
udai,
I have asked you about Being.You are not answering that.You are asking now why Krishna taught Bhagavad Gita to Arjuna.I will answer that.First answer what you mean by being.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 28, 2012, 06:39:19 PM
I have no answer for that.
Or may be u can take what is not non-being
:) since u wanted an answer.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 28, 2012, 06:43:41 PM
udai,
What is Self that you have Realized?
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 28, 2012, 06:45:22 PM
:) Did i make such a claim ? :D
There is no one to "Realize" !

:) Ravi ji ... I am leaving now.
Do post all such queries u have :D

Again, read the story of sanata kumara i posted earlier :)
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 28, 2012, 07:35:46 PM
udai,
I have definitely seen your words-'I have Realized' somewhere in this Forum.
Here is another post of yours from 'Systematic study of Scriptures' thread :
Dear Friends,
        :) I too learnt a lot only by studying Sri Ramakrishna's Gospel and Sri Ramana's gospel. They have been the fundamental building blocks of my philosophic life : be it the practise or the thought process as a whole.

But somewhere down the line, I learnt something really wonderful from one saintly person. what he came up with is "I can show you the Truth"
I said, "how can you do that? Its a matter of Experience born out of long practise"
and he said "see , if i see the moon, i can show you the moon. otherwise i cannot."
and i was eager to know. So I said "Ok, please aid me "
he said "Scriptures are darshana shastras, when you study them, they are supposed to give you a Darshan of that Truth"
I said ok, fine, let me have the darshan of myself as presented by the scriptures.
and he indeed presented it to me!! :)
I was really eager to know the Truth and he gave me that darshan and I knew now what all the scriptures were teaching, what all vedanta is all about.
Relaxed , I said to myself "Yes, now i am liberated"
but that was too early. My own weaknesses , still remained.
I searched various scriptures and learnt that mano-nashanam has to happen
. And got the exact meaning of what and how it has to be done within.

Later I learnt from some sources that the mahatma who taught me the Truth was himself not living it ! I said, "how does it matter ? I have got what I am supposed to get and am now on my own. What he teaches is correct and true."

and now I stand of myself, I know the Truth , and yet I know that i need to finally make sure vasana kshaya and mano-nasahanam happen. Coz without that this truth remains not totally owned up"

You may like to review all this.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 28, 2012, 07:42:41 PM
Friends,
An excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
Brahman cannot be expressed in words
"What Brahman is cannot he described. All things in the world - the Vedas, the Puranas, the
Tantras, the six systems of philosophy - have been defiled, like food that has been touched
by the tongue, for they have been read or uttered by the tongue. Only one thing has not
been defiled in this way, and that is Brahman. No one has ever been able to say what
Brahman is."
VIDYASAGAR (to his friends): "Oh! That is a remarkable statement. I have learnt
something new today."
MASTER: "A man had two sons. The father sent them to a preceptor to learn the
Knowledge of Brahman. After a few years they returned from their preceptor's house and
bowed low before their father. Wanting to measure the depth of their knowledge of
Brahman, he first questioned the older of the two boys. 'My child,' he said, 'You have
studied all the scriptures. Now tell me, what is the nature of Brahman?' The boy began to
explain Brahman by reciting various texts from the Vedas. The father did not say anything.
Then he asked the younger son the same question. But the boy remained silent and stood
with eyes cast down. No word escaped his lips. The father was pleased and said to him: 'My
child, you have understood a little of Brahman. What It is cannot be expressed in words.
'
Parable of ant and sugar hill
"Men often think they have understood Brahman fully. Once an ant went to a hill of sugar.
One grain filled its stomach. Taking another grain in its mouth it started homeward. On its
way it thought, 'Next time I shall carry home the whole hill.' That is the way shallow minds
think. They don't know that Brahman is beyond one's words and thought. However great a
man may be, how much can he know of Brahman
? Sukadeva and sages like him may have
been big ants; but even they could carry at the utmost eight or ten grains of sugar!
"As for what has been said in the Vedas and the Puranas, do you know what it is like?
Suppose a man has seen the ocean, and somebody asks him, 'Well, what is the ocean like?'
The first man opens his mouth as wide as he can and says: 'What a sight! What tremendous
waves and sounds!' The description of Brahman in the sacred books is like that.
It is said in
the Vedas that Brahman is of the nature of Bliss - It is Satchidananda.

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 28, 2012, 08:05:48 PM
Dear srkudai,

The true Self of me is not bound, but my bondage to the real or illusory ego obscures the true Self of me. Realization of the
Self is the same as Liberation from the ego.

What does it matter if I do believe in a separate individual self, an ego? Why do spiritual teachers speak of it as a sort of
crime? Because it is. It is the original sin, as Sri Bhagavan said. All technical terms mislead - Self, ego, sin, God, mind -- all
get personified like characters on a stage and need to be re-examined from time to time. I have a mental faculty which is used
by what-is to correlate and report the apperception of what-is manifested, submitted to it by my other faculties. But very early
in life, this mental faculty begins to find some of the reports made by it pleasant and others disturbing. And it builds itself up into
a factitious person, demanding the pleasant ones and rejecting or trying to reject the unpleasant. For this purpose it uses and disposes
of the other faculties. It is this fictitious person that is called the mind, or ego. They are the same.

We must be careful about the words we use., we must be careful about the meaning of the words that we use, so as not to
get tangled up in them., Liberation from what? From the ego or the belief in an ego or illusion of an ago?  If there is no ego, then
of course, there can be no bondage to it and no need for Liberation from it. But so long as I live as though there were an ego
and take offence at a slight  or want a cake, there is an ego for me. And I am bound by it or by the service I render to it.

Arunachala Siva.               
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 28, 2012, 10:05:57 PM
udai/Friends,
These couple of stories udai attributed to Sri Ramakrishna,in the course of our interchange in this thread:
1."“remember the story of a person who had 6 horses and one day they bring a 7th horse with them from the forest ? and people said "u r lucky" and the guy said "is that so ?"
and then his son broke his leg riding the horse. and people said "u r unlucky" and he said "is that so ?"
... i am sure u remember this story. its also from ramakrishna !”

2.“Ramakrishna said something ... he said "see through those branches what u see is moon"
and from that day ppl are always seeing between branches. Ramakrishna saw it. he could have
said it different way or the same way.
but others who keep repeating ... just keep repeating.
if u have seen u can convey ... otherwise not.”

Just want to set the facts right.Sri Ramakrishna never told these stories.
This is why it is better to quote from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna,so that no such masala are added!
Namaskar.

Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: nonduel on May 28, 2012, 10:42:02 PM
This thread is beginning to be "weird", if you permit me to use that expression...

You KNOW that you ARE! Everyone here knows without a doubt that he exist.

If you stay put there, that's BEING!

Not trying to be something, but just BEING. Being STILL in one owns consciousness is Being, that's BEING.

ALL ELSE is not being because you are trying to find, to attain something that you cannot BE.

To BE is to STOP ALL QUESTIONS. All this is playing with the mind which is the tool of Maya.

Ramana said to a disciple:  Are there TWO SELF?

If in the Absolute Reality there is only the non-dual SELF, then ALL, EVERYTHING IS THE SELF. There is NOTHING else but the SELF. So WHO IS BOUND???

Please everyone answer this, tell me who is bound? Except in continuing to act as a bound individual believing that one is a body

The chains are in the mind, WE ARE NOT THE MIND (S.A.)

There is this incident where a woman asked Ramana for "only" moksha...that's all she wanted. And Ramana laughed when she left saying that that desire was the obstacle.

It is like the snake and the rope. If one knows that it is a rope but continues to stay away, and being afraid, and asking someone to get rid of the snake etc...

Not being in the "state" Ramana was/is, doesn't change the fact that there is only the Self.

In respect to all the opinion expressed here, and with Love :)

My dear Raviji, if you were a cow, I would say...BE what you ARE!

My dear Subramanianji,
Quote: "The true Self of me is not bound, but my bondage to the real or illusory ego obscures the true Self of me. Realization of the Self is the same as Liberation from the ego."

Are there two Self? Your bondage is only because you do not believe what Ramana said. He saw everyone as himself, everyone as a Jnani....there is nothing but the Self. Who is the one you believe to be that is bound?
The Realised, all say that once they realised, they understood that they were never bound, it was an illusion.

To get rid of the veil, the source of this illusion, one has to recognized that it is an illusion and STOP giving it a reality by accepting that he is bound, that he is appart from the Self, that he doesn't deserve to be the Self, that he has to do all sort of thing to attain what HE IS.

You are already the True Self! There is none other!
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: prasanth_ramana_maharshi on May 29, 2012, 01:10:44 AM
yes, Being STILL in one owns consciousness using our body as a tool.

afterall our body needs solid food when hunger and no vedanta can resolve this issue.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 29, 2012, 07:09:11 AM
nonduel,
I enjoyed reading your post.I appreciate the earnestness with which you have expressed yourself.
"My dear Raviji, if you were a cow, I would say...BE what you ARE!"
How will I understand your words-"BE what you ARE!"?
How does communication happens?Not because of words but despite them!
Love is the State of Being and it does not need words to communicate.Love gets across where words fail and fail miserably.'anbE sivam'-Love is Being.
I was only trying to point to this limitation of using words ,reasoning,Deduction and all that.All that has a place in everyday world,but are not of much value in sadhana.
Here is an excerpt from paramahansa Yogananda's Whispers from Eternity:
"O Divine Hart, I ran after Thee, equipped with spears of selfish desires. Thou didst fly! I raced after Thee in the plane of loud prayer. It crashed to the earth of my restlessness, and the noise frightened Thee away from me! Stealthily I crept upon Thee with the dart of my concentration. But my hand shook with unsteadiness, and Thou didst bound from me, and Thy feet echoed—“Without devotion thou art a poor, poor marksman!” With firmness of devotion, as I held the dart of meditation, I heard Thy divine steps resound again—“I am beyond thy mental dart; I am beyond!” At last in despair, I entered the cave of celestial love and, lo! Thou, the Divine Hart, camest willingly within"

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 29, 2012, 07:23:01 AM
Friends,
An excerpt from The Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi:
D.: Sri Bhagavan’s silence is itself a powerful force. It brings about
a certain peace of mind in us.
M.: Silence is never-ending speech. Vocal speech obstructs the other
speech of silence. In silence one is in intimate contact with the
surroundings
. The silence of Dakshinamurti removed the doubts of
the four sages. Mouna vyakhya prakatita tatvam (Truth expounded
by silence.) Silence is said to be exposition
. Silence is so potent.
For vocal speech, organs of speech are necessary and they precede
speech. But the other speech lies even beyond thought. It is in short
transcendent speech or unspoken words, para vak.
D.: Is there knowledge in Realisation?
M.: Absence of knowledge is sleep. There is knowledge in Realisation.
But this knowledge differs from the ordinary one of the relation
of subject and object. It is absolute knowledge
. Knowledge has
two meanings:
(1) vachyartha = vritti = Literal meaning.
(2) lakshyartha = Jnana = Self = Swarupa = Secondary significance.
D.: With vritti one sees knowledge.
M.: Quite so, he also confounds vritti with knowledge. Vritti is a mode
of mind. You are not the mind. You are beyond it
.

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: sanjaya_ganesh on May 29, 2012, 08:22:48 AM
Quote
Just want to set the facts right.Sri Ramakrishna never told these stories.
This is why it is better to quote from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna,so that no such masala are added!

Ravi Ji

Whatever is in Gospel is also not written down by Sri Ramakrishna :) . It is from his disciples. A story is to impart a special inner meaning. Why worry so much about attachments to specific books and gurus as long as a message is conveyed? :) Sorry for being blunt :)

-Sanjay
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 29, 2012, 08:52:20 AM
Sanjaya,
Friend,No problem with your question.There are several dimensions to the answer:
1.The Words of Great ones have to be approached with great care attention and faith.This is called sraddha.If we are attributing something to them that they have not uttered,it is a form of falsehood and if we do not take care,such things become habitual and affect us.Leave aside the fact that the story narrated may be a simple one and can be enjoyed even had it come from an anonymous source.
2.In cultivating this habit of referring to the exact words,we tend to become receptive and internalize the teachings.This is like Sri annamalai swami's 'Living by the words of Bhagavan'.So intense was his sraddha to his guru that he copied even the dress and posture of Sri Bhagavan.
3.The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna is a unique book ,in that it has captured the very words of Sri Ramakrishna with stenographic precision-Nothing has been added or deleted!Everything is there including Sri Ramakrishna asking 'M' to scrape his tongue!Such was 'M' 's devotion to the Master that he just wrote down all that was said,including repetitions without any 'editing'.If you are interested,you may read my post on this in the 'Rough Note-book' thread.
In short,to recapitulate ,one should cultivate the discipline to ensure what one posts is authentic.
Just imagine what would have happened to the Upanishads if the Oral Tradition had not been so faithful and diligent to have preserved for posterity the voice of the Ancient Rishis.Do we have the same thing when it comes to writing from memory!Atleast one should acknowledge that one is writing from memory and may not be accurate,when it comes to citing the words of Great ones.Gradually ,eyes,nose will get added and the entire substance will be lost!
This in short is the reason why I have put that note.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: sanjaya_ganesh on May 29, 2012, 09:09:21 AM
Ravi Ji -

Quote
In cultivating this habit of referring to the exact words,we tend to become receptive and internalize the teachings.This is like Sri annamalai swami's 'Living by the words of Bhagavan'.So intense was his sraddha to his guru that he copied even the dress and posture of Sri Bhagavan.

:) My humble thoughts - Words, however exact you repeat - cannot help internalize teachings. Else, Dakshina Murthy would be a myth - where silence is the teacher :). Second part - copying a guru is not a mandatory pre-requisite. I dont need to tell you (you know so well) - that Swami Vivekananda was anything - but a copy of Sri Ramakrishna in dress and posture :)

Quote
Just imagine what would have happened to the Upanishads if the Oral Tradition had not been so faithful and diligent to have preserved for posterity the voice of the Ancient Rishis

Why is there so many interpretations of great texts like Gita and Upanishads even after such diligence? Every Gita Bhashya I see is completely different. If they were so clear, why so many interpretations? Now there is even "Management thru Gita" :) :). This example you quoted is the perfect example to prove that words cannot express this irrespective of source you quote. Else, anybody who reads it diligently will become instant Jnani :)

My Friend, I am not arguing with you - but just stating what you see around in real world history and life.

Yes - I agree with your statement that it is not good to "put words into the mouths of great ones" :) by mis-quoting. But that is all it is there to it.

-Sanjay
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 29, 2012, 09:58:10 AM
Sanjaya,
It is through Sraddha that we internalize the teachings and part of this is to pay attention to what was said by the Great ones.This is one sure way and effective Sadhana.Through them we enter into Satsangha with the Great ones,and as we do that we find the echo in ourselves and reach  to the source within us.This is how it happens.
When I have mentioned about Sri Annamalai swami,I am telling you from First hand experience,the extent of Sraddha that he had in his Guru and it certainly is worth emulating if one is so inclined.Swami Vivekananda was not like that but 'M' was like Annamalai Swami.At the age of 80 ,he still visited the Kali temple and after he paid his obeisance,he requested his companion to get some sweet(I forget the name of the sweet)from a nearby shop-just because Sri Ramakrishna had told him to do so a long while ago!This may look foolish to the intellect but this is sraddha in its fullest measure.If you have read 'Autobiography of a Yogi',there is a wonderful Chapter on Master Mahasya-'The Blissful devotee and His Cosmic Romance'.It will bring this aspect of 'M'.So wonderful it is.

Coming to the Various commentaries on the Gita,as I have said that it is better to read the Original as it is-There may be few things unclear in the beginning but if we persist with earnestness,we will stand to benefit.One may take help from commentaries but better to approach it directly.This is my view.Others may feel differently.

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 29, 2012, 10:35:00 AM
Dear Ravi,

Yes. Sraddha is the most important requisite.  Sri Bhagavan calls it in pure Tamizh, as uran in Verse 32 of Ulladu Narapdu.

"When the Vedas declared, 'Thou art That' -- not to seek and find the nature of the Self and abide in It, but to think 'I am That
not This' is want of strength (uran). Because, That abides for ever as the Self."

Arunachala Siva.

       
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 29, 2012, 10:43:43 AM
Dear Raviji,
         :)

Humm... About the stories ... The first 1 is by Ramakrishna: i cannot copy paste for u... i hope you will remember if i give u the story again: a farmer loses his horses. people come and say "its sad", he says "is that so?" ... then they come back with an additional wild horse. the people say "u r right, u r lucky" , he says "is that so?" ... the next day his son breaks his leg tryign to ride that horse ... they come and say "u r unlucky"... he says "is that so ?" ... and then the king wanted people to fight and takes away every youth in the colony, his son was left out coz he had his leg broken. And people come and say "u r lucky", he says "is that so ?" !

Second one, i did not say its story by Ramakrishna ... i said ... Ramakrishna saw the moon and explained it that way. U r reading his works and "getting something else"

Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 29, 2012, 10:45:12 AM
Dear Raviji,
      :)

1.  I never claimed that logic/words do not have limitations ! :) if u r trying to prove that to me that they have limitations ... its futile.

2. About me & my realization ... lets talk later. Tell me ... are you a) Liberated b) Bound c) Neither ??

3. Continuing kaun banega jivan mukta : are you a) Mind b) body c) mind-body combination d) Atma



Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 29, 2012, 10:48:26 AM
Dear Raviji,
       :) I do not have to review all that :) What you pasted and i wrote holds true. u have obviously failed to understand it. Vasana means notion "i am not the self". that needs to be destroyed. Meaning i should remain as Self. not mind/body. Mano-nashanam does not mean "Killing Mind"... coz mind is never alive to be killed.

There is no one thats bound here! There being no bondage [other than self imposed bondage] ... no question of liberation either. Everyone is already free / Liberated. One just needs to "BE" & not impose bondage and limitations upon oneself.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 29, 2012, 11:02:32 AM
udai,
1."The first 1 is by Ramakrishna: i cannot copy paste for u... i hope you will remember if i give u the story again: a farmer loses his horses. people come and say "its sad", he says "is that so?"

Sri Ramakrishna never told that story.I have read this story narrated by Rajneesh in one of his books.

2.As regards the other posts of yours -I have nothing more to add to what I have already posted.

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 29, 2012, 11:09:11 AM
:D Dear Raviji,
       :) I do not read Rajneesh . So it should be from Ramakrishna / Ramana. or may be its a buddhist / tao or zen story.
BTW ... I am more interested in the moral of the story than who said it!!

I knew u would not answer the questions i raise.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 29, 2012, 11:32:39 AM
Dear Subramanian,
        :)
you said :
"The true Self of me is not bound, but my bondage to the real or illusory ego obscures the true Self of me."

So u have already conclused that "you" are mind/ego and now say that this obscures true Self ! :) True ... we need to use words carefully ... long before we do that ... we need to have clarity.

Self is not bound-- Never Bound. That which says u r bound is ego ... thats precisely what u should resolve.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 29, 2012, 11:37:57 AM
Dear srkudai,

Yes. We are all the Self. But have we realized It?  I have not realized It. Perhaps you may have.

So, at least I am bound by the illusory ego, so I have to transcend it.

We are the Self.
We have not realized the Self.

I am of the view that there is a difference.

Arunachala Siva.
   
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 29, 2012, 11:38:52 AM
Friends.... Ashtavakra Gita says :

मुक्ताभिमानी मुक्तो हि बद्धो बद्धाभिमान्यपि।
किवदन्तीह सत्येयं या मतिः सा गतिर्भवेत् ॥१-११॥


If you think you are free you are free. If you think you are bound you are bound. It is rightly said: You become what you think. ॥11॥

I hope the meaning is clear from that verse.
now plz dont tell me Ramakrishna/Ramana disagrees with this :D LOL !
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 29, 2012, 11:40:17 AM
Dear Subramanian,
       :) Who says he/she/it has not Realized ? Mind / Body or Self ?

If its the mind ... you are not the mind.
Self Does not say!!


Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: prasanth_ramana_maharshi on May 29, 2012, 01:37:32 PM
yes well said udai garu.

Ashtavakra Gita verse makes sense that what we think we become.

Afterall gits says mind is our friend as well as enemy.

Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 29, 2012, 02:13:25 PM
The problem is , Prashant,
Sadhana means to disassociate from the mind and remain as Self again and again until it becomes effortless.
Thats about Sadhana.
All other sadhanas are basically only indirect means to this.

if a person directly rejects that one is not the Self and says "Right now i am mind ... i will some day realize i am Self" ... thats not going to happen .Coz all sadhanas are done by the mind and mind is retained by all of them.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: prasanth_ramana_maharshi on May 29, 2012, 03:12:54 PM
i 100% agree with your statement saying Sadhana means to disassociate from the mind and remain as Self again and again until it becomes effortless.

That is the reason why exactly we are here and what infact guru ramana has implemented in his lifetime during his stay in this planet earth.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 29, 2012, 03:23:36 PM
Friends,
An excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
"Many people think that their opinion alone is right and others' opinions are wrong; that
they alone have won and others have lost. But a person who has gone forward may be
detained by some slight obstacle, and someone who has been lagging behind may then steal
a march on him. In the game of golokdham one may advance a great deal, but still
somehow one's piece may fail to reach the goal.
Inscrutability of God's ways
"Triumph or defeat is in the hands of God. We cannot understand His ways. You must have
noticed that the green coconut remains high in the tree and is exposed to the sun, but still its
milk is cool. On the other hand the paniphal remains in the water, but when eaten it heats
the body."
"A man may be united with God either through action or through inwardness of thought,
but he can know everything through bhakti. Through bhakti one spontaneously experiences
kumbhaka. The nerve currents and breathing calm down when the mind is concentrated.
Again, the mind is concentrated when the nerve currents and breathing calm down. Then
the buddhi, the discriminating power, becomes steady. The man who achieves this state is
not himself aware of it.
Efficacy of bhakti-yoga
"One can attain everything through bhakti yoga. I wept before the Mother and prayed, 'O
Mother, please tell me, please reveal to me, what the yogis have realized through yoga and
the jnanis through discrimination.' And the Mother has revealed everything to me. She
reveals everything if the devotee cries to Her with a yearning heart. She has shown me
everything that is in the Vedas, the Vedanta, the Puranas, and the Tantra."

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: nonduel on May 29, 2012, 03:26:08 PM
Dear Raviji,

If you were a cow you wouldn't even ask the question, you would just continue to be what you are...a cow ;)

ALL beliefs are from the mind !
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 29, 2012, 03:33:31 PM
Dear Raviji,
       :) what advancing and what winning/losing ?
We are in the lap of God 24 7.
its your mind that cheats you and tells u a different story.

thats all.
where else to go ? you have already reached. Coz you are already in the lap of God.
no need to convince that stupid mind! no need to go by its orders.
people have gone and done what not in the hope of finding God!!
God is here. now.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 29, 2012, 03:36:32 PM
The mind says "To Reach God lets read Ramakrishna's gospel"
U say "What read? Am i not already there ?"
Mind: No! I do not Feel Like that. To Feel , lets Read Ramakrishna! Do u want to insult Ramakrishna by saying his work is not needed ? We will have to study it! through it u get the "Feel"

And u read ... to get "some feel" and as any feeling it passes away.
mind traps.

U have already reached. The gospel of Ramakrishna and Ramana served their purposes. u may chose to continue to read or revel in that presence of God now!!
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 29, 2012, 03:39:50 PM
nonduel,
Please go through my post again.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: nonduel on May 29, 2012, 03:40:57 PM
Raviji,

My last post was intended as a joke  ;)
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 29, 2012, 03:41:51 PM
udai,
If you did not find that post useful,you may ignore it.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 29, 2012, 03:42:54 PM
nonduel,
 :)
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 29, 2012, 03:46:42 PM
Dear srkudai,

Yes. It is the mind or ego or chid-jada-granthi - which makes one feel that one has not realized. I agree. But why should the
ego says so? Because of Vasanas. So the latent tendencies are the root of the whole problem.

Just because Ashtavakra Gita says or Gita says one is ever free or one is the Self, one does not attain Self realization.

It needs sraddha or strength to wipe out the ego and further the vasanas too. Because vasanas are deeper than ego.

If ego is illusory, if the mind is illusory, if the Self is ever realized, why should Sri Bhagavan speak about ego and its nature,
in Verses 24, 25 and 26 of Sad Darsanam?  Why should He further give a method in Verses 28 and 29?

The fact is that ego is there for everyone.  Merely to call it illusory will not solve the problem. Just because Prashant agrees
that what Ashtavakra Gita says is true, does not make him self realized.  This illusory ego has to be faced and vanquished
hands down. That is why Sri Bhagavan gives description of the nature of ego and a method to investigate it in Sad Darsanam.

As Sri Ramakrishna says that since Panchanga says there will be rain today, rains will not fall or if you crush the panchanga
book, rain drops will not gush forth.

That is also the reason for Sri Bhagavan speaking about efforts in Self Inquiry in many places in Talks.

If the Self is ever realized, then why should there be efforts at all?


So one should first understand Liberation is not merely Self Realization, Liberation is liberation from the ego/vasanas, which
occur with consistent self inquiry and of course, more importantly Guru's Grace.             

Sri Sankara therefore says in Viveka Chudamani, about Atmanusandhanam. It has been likened to churning the curd to draw
forth butter, the mind being compared to the churning rod, the heart to the curd, and the practice of constancy in the Self to
the process of churning. Just as by churning the curd, the butter is extracted and by friction fire is kindled, even so, by unswerving
vigilant constancy in the Self, ceaseless like the unbroken filamentary flow of oil, is generated the natural or changleess trance or
Sahaja Nishta which is nothing but unobstructed universal perception of Brahman, which is Knowledge and Experience of the Self
that transcends time and space.   

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 29, 2012, 03:50:01 PM
Dear Subramanian,
         :) You are not the mind, then why should you worry what it feels or says ?
The problem is because u think u r the mind. What is to be done then is to separate urself from mind and abide as Self.
Everytime one falls into mind, separate and abide as Self.

whats the point in trying to calm mind, control mind, bring mind to certain states etc? That fellow called mind is propelling coz of my involvement. Remain detached as Self. Abide there. Firmly rejecting mind as not me. Thats all is Sadhana all about.

Vasanas are also not of mind! One does not realize after Reading Ashtavakra gita coz one does not "Take it seriously" ;) ... it says like this ... but i dont feel thus. one takes mind seriously. Take Asthavakra seriously sir!


Who is "Caught" in vasanas ? Mind or Self ?
Dont accept to solve the mind's problems.
Dont even give it attention.
Abide as Self.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 29, 2012, 03:57:14 PM
The whole problem is in pacifying the mind ... mind tells us a story that is never correct.
what ever mind says dont accept. Thats its problem. In hindi its called "haat dho lena"... to wash off one's hands ...
dont ever etertain this fellow called mind.
He seeks all kinds of entertainments.

now lets do prayer ... he will say .. now again he will say, lets go out and speak to someone.
now again it says lets dance or go for a party...

if these suggestions are not there one will not be able to operate in the world. keep them as operational suggestions. do not allow them to hit u like a ball from one place to another. Never should it be a must to pacify the mind. never should it be important to agree with it.

in all matters mind should become a servant.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 29, 2012, 04:12:59 PM
When we say "Ego has to be faced and vanquished" it seems very exotic ...
what one has to do is disbelieve or stop listening to it.
thats all.
its not me.

it will die.
so naturally one needs i am Self firmness.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 29, 2012, 04:14:14 PM
Friends,
An excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
MASTER: "It will be all right if you don't feel any egotism, if you don't have the vain
feeling: 'I am giving a lecture. Listen to me.' What begets egotism? Knowledge or
ignorance? It is only the humble man who attains Knowledge. In a low place rain-water
collects. It runs down from a mound.
"A man achieves neither Knowledge nor liberation as long as he has egotism. He comes
back again and again to the world. The calf bellows, 'Hamba! Hamba!', that is, 'I! I!' That is
why it suffers such agony. The butcher slaughters it and the shoe-maker makes shoes from
its hide. Besides, its hide is used for the drum, which is beaten mercilessly. Still no end to
its misery! At long last a carding machine is made from its entrails. While carding the
cotton the machine makes the sound 'Tuhu! Tuhu!', that is, 'Thou! Thou!' Then the poor calf
is released from all suffering. It no longer says, 'Hamba! Hamba!' but repeats, 'Tuhu! Tuhu!'
The calf says, as it were, 'O God, Thou art the Doer and I am nothing. Thou art the
Operator and I am the machine. Thou art everything.'

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: nonduel on May 29, 2012, 04:35:24 PM
Dear Raviji,

I maybe wrong, but that last post seems moralistic to me.

For myself, when I express an opinion, it is merely an opinion. It can be discarded and ignored. I think that all opinions gathered here are helpfull in having a bigger views and thus making our own opinion.

Namaskar
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: nonduel on May 29, 2012, 04:37:57 PM
There's a small booklet called "Be The Self" written by Sri V. Ganesan.

It is well worth the read and covers most aspects of this thread.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 29, 2012, 04:38:06 PM
Dear friend, I cannot read all what is written by you but generally I get what you are accentuating now. All such disputes about what Mind is and how to treat is is of grave importance but at the same time is not quite correct. This is because everything depends on the angle we see the problem. This is discussed may be many times but let do it again:

1. What is the Reality? What is Real?
2. Is Mind and everything different from the Reality?
3. Is any question, answer, analysis, terminology, expression and so on from you in this and all other topics different from the Mind?
4. Could anyone of you say "I am the Self" if you have not read the books of Ramana and the others?
5. Those of you who say "I am the Self" - are you sure that you are the Self, without any doubt? Or this conception of the Self is just next and may be the most appealing conception of your Mind?
6. Do those who say the Self is only Real more correct from those who say "Everything is God"?
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: nonduel on May 29, 2012, 04:41:28 PM
Dear Ramana,

EVERYTHING sprout from the mind, all the posts here, all the books, all the words....the Self is SILENCE
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 29, 2012, 04:45:01 PM
Indeed Self is Silence... But its that Silence which is despite all noise ! One should observe this.
The usual way is ... silence means dont speak.
Silence is the background of all noise. so it remains silence when there is no noise & when there is noise.

Do we recognize this aspect of it ?
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 29, 2012, 04:49:50 PM
Exactly. The ignorance is that we, thinking that we describe the Self, we actually are feeding and using the Mind. The question is AND THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT - do we need  the Mind to remove the ignorance? If we need It then we should not talk so lightly about the Self. Let's those who have realized the Self or God talk that Mind is illusion or that is God's Shakti and so on. I am sure that for the Self-realized man and woman any descriptions are meaningless but they use them for the ignorant people.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 29, 2012, 04:51:31 PM
Dear Ramana,

1. What is the Reality? What is Real?
Well, the best answer is remain silent... :) ... but ill present it here slightly differently. If you mentally separate yourself from every notion! thats it. No definition is required. Note: For separating urself from all mental activity... mental activity need not be stopped. Just as if i am playing a role in a drama ... to know that i am not the role but the person playing it ... i need not stop playing the drama.

2. Is Mind and everything different from the Reality?

Mind & everything belongs to the releam of mithya. They "Seem" to be there as a snake imagined on a rope.

3. Is any question, answer, analysis, terminology, expression and so on from you in this and all other topics different from the Mind?

Well ... All analysis is "in" mind. But there are two ways to say it. The analysis may resolve the mind in Self. So Words belong to the releam of mithya but can act as means to negate all that is mithya.

4. Could anyone of you say "I am the Self" if you have not read the books of Ramana and the others?
Yes Ramana did it. :). And more over ... One may read Some scripture under proper guru. But Ramana's books are of great use.

5. Those of you who say "I am the Self" - are you sure that you are the Self, without any doubt? Or this conception of the Self is just next and may be the most appealing conception of your Mind?

Do doubts, doubts belong to the mind. One abides on Self rejecting the doubts of mind.
 
6. Do those who say the Self is only Real more correct from those who say "Everything is God"?

:) depends on what the word "God" means and what is meant by "Everything is God" ! Coz Everything is cahnging and God is supposed to be changeless. If the sentence "Everything is God" is seen as to mean that all thats changing is not there and only God is, then yes they mean the same.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 29, 2012, 04:53:10 PM
Dear Ramana,
    :)
You said : "The ignorance is that we, thinking that we describe the Self, we actually are feeding and using the Mind. "

Need not be. A description need not always be positive. Shastras/Ramana's teaching present the description in a negative way. Like OM. When one chants OM... OM means Brahman. IF one chants it, it serves to resolve the whole universe into the Silence that is "I AM". Thats how scriptures and descriptions work. They do not "Describe" brahman... but negate what is not brahman.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 29, 2012, 04:54:18 PM
And calling it illusion is not talking lite of it or making it important. it is just saying what is as it is. calling a spade a spade.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 29, 2012, 05:01:55 PM
nonduel,
the 'Not I' but 'Thou' statement avoids the trappings of all ego centred statements;the 'i' is mistaken for the Self and the statement of Sri Ramakrishna avoids this trap.No moral tinge to it.It is the Natural state when the ego does not function.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 29, 2012, 05:04:01 PM
Quote
Need not be. A description need not always be positive. Shastras/Ramana's teaching present the description in a negative way. Like OM. When one chants OM... OM means Brahman. IF one chants it, it serves to resolve the whole universe into the Silence that is "I AM". Thats how scriptures and descriptions work. They do not "Describe" brahman... but negate what is not brahman.

There could no be description for the Self which attributeless, without qualities. As I have mentioned in another topic many time before, It cannot even be said that is Sat-Chit-Ananda. Remember Ganesha Stotram. I have quoted it but I will quote it again:

We offer our worship to the Lord Ganesha, Who is Unborn, Absolute and Formless; Who is beyond joy, and Bliss Itself.....the One and the Infinite; Who is the Supreme without attributes, differentiation and desire; and Who is verily the Supreme Brahman.

There is no description which to be attributed to the Self, even the term THE SELF.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 29, 2012, 05:10:45 PM
Dear Ramana,
     :) Please read what I wrote.

A description is not necessarily positive. it may leave u as Brahman by negating what is not!
what is not brahman can be negated using words.

SAT - CIT -ANANDA is also not a description but a negation of all that is ASAT, JADA and LIMITED.

Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 29, 2012, 05:15:04 PM
This is just an isolated case of 'neti, neti'. But let's not forget that positive or negative, any description or repulsion will not show you what the Self is.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 29, 2012, 05:17:12 PM
On the contrary ... anything thats shown is mithya.

Self is not "Shown" or "Seen"... though some times vague term is used.
Self is U.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 29, 2012, 05:21:22 PM
In Bhagavad Gita Bhasyam... shankra explains this point. He says that shastras do not serve to "Reveal" self. Shastras only serve to reject the superimpositions ... to undo the "knots" of ignorance. Thats all.

Words can be used for this.

Words are very powerful. A Psychological experiment was done once. There were two pictures presented to people. one was called bebo and the other kiki. it was not told which one is named what. so the audiance were supposed to map them. And u know what !! Majority chose a more spiked picture or kiki and the softer one for bebo.
thats how words have one-one relationship with forms. if so... formless also ? :) words serve a good purpose to negate... not to establish.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 29, 2012, 05:39:32 PM
Regarding Ganesha Stotram ... i have doubts about the sanskrit translation.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 29, 2012, 05:51:46 PM
Friends,
Whatever be the words used,whatever be the approach,it is clear that sadhana is needed.Self does not do sadhana and only the mind does the sadhana.As long as sadhana is being done,the 'doer' is there.As long as 'doer' is there,Self is unrealized.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 29, 2012, 06:00:33 PM
Quote
Friends,
Whatever be the words used,whatever be the approach,it is clear that sadhana is needed.Self does not do sadhana and only the mind does the sadhana.As long as sadhana is being done,the 'doer' is there.As long as 'doer' is there,Self is unrealized.
Namaskar.

Very right, Sri Ravi! The Mind is everything we are dealing with.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 29, 2012, 06:04:39 PM
Dear Ravi,
         :) What is Sadhana ?

When ever the mind prompts : "Here is the doer"
Negate that and be "Doer-less"
thats sadhana.

When mind is never able to fool u to see a doer ... u are in sahaja stiti.

Thats all the difference.

its not sadhana if one knows "Doer" is there and allows it to remain.

We deal with mind alone ... but what we do is ... reject all reality we have accidentally associated with it every moment we recognize it. To take a plunge again and again in Awareness. Thats Sadhana.

if thats not done ... its not sadhana ... its entertainment for mind.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 29, 2012, 06:09:03 PM
so sadhana does start with mind, but it is about resolving it in Self.
Resolving mind in Self has to happen there and then. And one remains vacant ... totally absent.
Being thus is sadhana.

if the mind arises again, one does it again... this is sadhana.

if however the mind never raises ... what to do ... one just is as such.
so only difference between Ramana and us is ... Ramana remained effortlessly ... we remain with a little effort. thats all. nothing else. The states are same, the being is same. Reveling also is same. One would very soon find that its not difficult at all.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 29, 2012, 06:14:37 PM
udai,
"And one remains vacant ... totally absent"
Who is the one remaining Vacant?What is vacant?Why 'Remain'?
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 29, 2012, 06:29:39 PM
Dear all,

Once there was a man born blind. He was married and he had a small baby. Once when the mother was giving milk, the milk
went into the windpipe of the child and the child had hiccups, breathing problem and finally stomach pain. The blind man
was wondering what has happened. His friend explained that the child while drinking milk had hiccups and breathing problem
and is now suffering from stomach pain. The blind father asked: What is milk? The friend explained: It is white like water but
good for baby's health. The blind man asked again: What is white? The friend described: White is a color of a stork. The blind
father asked 'What is a stork?'  The friend raised his elbow and asked the blind man to touch the elbow and said: The stork is
a white thing which is like this.

The blind man then said: O such a huge thing! If it goes into baby's mouth, what else it can do, but to have hiccups, breathing
problem and stomach pain too!

We are like this in this discussion. We have left the milk. We are catching hold of the stork, which is like a raised elbow!

The so called illusory mind and ego are there. The vasanas are there. The idea of self inquiry is to start it after getting chitta suddhi
(cleansing up of vasanas either by self inquiry itself and or with prayers and japas) and then make the ego/mind lie quiescent in
the Self within.  For all these, efforts are necessary. Efforts have to made by the mind only. If the mind becomes pure mind with
sadhana then pure mind is the Self.

Arunachala Siva.

             
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 29, 2012, 06:41:21 PM
Dear Subramanian,
         :)
you said:
"The so called illusory mind and ego are there. The vasanas are there. The idea of self inquiry is to start it after getting chitta suddhi"

Chitta suddhi is to understand they are not there! how can u ever gain citta suddhi if u accept them as there ?
its not a "so called idea" its is the fact thats immediate. if the world, ego, etc are treated as real ... no sadhana is possible. the person will never realize that its unreal , if he starts with "these are real"

coz ... a practise is a karma. karma does not give jnana!!


Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 29, 2012, 06:50:54 PM
Quote
Regarding Ganesha Stotram ... i have doubts about the sanskrit translation.

If it is so then enlighten me.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 29, 2012, 06:51:37 PM
Dear Subramanian ,
           :)

Karma does not give jnana ... as per shankaracharya. you have read so much and even posted whole of panchadasi here. please comment on this :)... i only sincerely hope u wont reject it :D
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 29, 2012, 06:54:54 PM
Dear Ramana,
     :) I cannot help u on that.
i did not see ganesha stotram and am not an expert in sanskrit. may be after a few days :D ill know enough sanskrit to help u with that.

BTW ... niranandam ... anandam & purnam ... thats the sentence i guess. it could mean one who is of the Form of Purna - Ananda : Complete Bliss thats changeless ... then niranandam can be taken as "unexcited" i guess. i am not clear on that. "Beyond Bliss" may not be a proper expression. nothing is "beyond" SAT-CIT-ANANDA. Basically beyond relative happiness which is dual of unhappiness ... ANANDA is not relative happiness. tht much is sure.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 29, 2012, 06:59:55 PM
Dear Ramana ,
        On a side note...
       :) There is an upanishad called Ganapathi atharvasirsha upanishad... it is a song in the praise of Ganapati and it says : Tvameva Pratyaksham tattvam asi... Tvameva kevalam kartasi ... tvameva kevalam dhartasi ... tvameva sarvam khalvidam Brahmasi ... Tvam Sakshad Atmasi nityam...
You are Brahman thats directly available ... you are the only doer ... you are the only sustainer ... you are the this Whole , Brahman... You are Atma.

and it then says Tvam Sat-cit-ananda advitiya-asi... you are SAT-CIT-ANANDA thats without a second.
I am just telling this to explain that Ganapati is also just SAT-CIT-ANANDA. if you are a devotee of Ganapati , there is nothing like this simple upanishad. its superb prayer.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 29, 2012, 07:31:36 PM
Friends,
An excerpt from The Letters on Yoga by Sri Aurobindo:

The words “peace, calm, quiet, silence” have each their own shade of meaning, but it is not easy to define them.

Peace—sänti.
Calm—sthiratä.
Quiet—acancalatä.
Silence—niscala nïravatä.


Quiet is a condition in which there is no restlessness or disturbance.
Calm is a still unmoved condition which no disturbance can effect—it is less negative condition than quiet.
Peace is a still more positive condition; it carries with it a sense of settled and harmonious rest and deliverance.
Silence is a state in which either there is no movement of the mind or vital or else a great stillness which no surface movement can pierce or alter.

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 29, 2012, 07:45:29 PM
Friends,
An excerpt from The Letters on Yoga by Sri Aurobindo:
"The first step is a quiet mind—silence is a further step, but quietude must be there; and by a quiet mind I mean a mental consciousness within, which sees thoughts arrive to it and move about but does not itself feel that it is thinking or identifying itself with the thoughts or call them its own. Thoughts, mental movements may pass through it as wayfarers appear and pass from elsewhere through a silent country—the quiet mind observes them or does not care to observe them, but, in either case, does not become active or lose its quietude. Silence is more than quietude; it can be gained by banishing thought altogether from the inner mind, keeping it voiceless or quiet outside, but more easily it is established by a descent from above—one feels it coming down, entering and occupying or surrounding the personal consciousness which then tends to merge itself in the vast impersonal silence."

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 29, 2012, 07:51:08 PM
Friends,
This is a precious  excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
The story of the wood-cutter
"Once upon a time a wood-cutter went into a forest to chop wood. There suddenly he met a
brahmachari. The holy man said to him, 'My good man, go forward.' On returning home the
wood-cutter asked himself, 'Why did the brahmachari tell me to go forward?' Some time
passed. One day he remembered the brahmachari's words. He said to himself, 'Today I shall
go deeper into the forest.' Going deep into the forest, he discovered innumerable sandalwood
trees. He was very happy and returned with cart-loads of sandal-wood. He sold them
in the market and became very rich.
"A few days later he again remembered the words of the holy man to go forward. He went
deeper into the forest and discovered a silver-mine near a river. This was even beyond his
dreams. He dug out silver from the mine and sold it in the market. He got so much money
that he didn't even know how much he had.
"A few more days passed. One day he thought: 'The brahmachari didn't ask me to stop at
the silver-mine; he told me to go forward.' This time he went to the other side of the river
and found a gold-mine. Then he exclaimed: 'Ah, just see! This is why he asked me to go
forward.'
"Again, a few days afterwards, he went still deeper into the forest and found heaps of
diamonds and other precious gems. He took these also and became as rich as the god of
wealth himself.
Go forward
"Therefore I say that, whatever you may do, you will find better and better things if only
you go forward. You may feel a little ecstasy as the result of japa, but don't conclude from
this that you have achieved everything in spiritual life. Work is by no means the goal of
life. Go forward, and then you will be able to perform unselfish work. But again I say that it
is most difficult to perform unselfish work. Therefore with love and longing in your heart
pray to God: 'O God, grant me devotion at Thy Lotus Feet and reduce my worldly duties.
Please grant me the boon that the few duties I must do may be done in a detached spirit.' If
you go still farther you will realize God.
You will see Him. In time you will converse with Him."

Namaskar
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 29, 2012, 07:53:03 PM
Dear srkudai,

Karma by itself does not confer Jnana. But nishkamya karma i.e prayers and japas to God or
Guru helps one to attain chitta suddhi. Without a sattvic mind one cannot  do self inquiry says
Sri Bhagavan.  Sri Bhagavan calls it as 'amala madhi' - it is only a Sanskrit word - in Sri Arunachala
Pancharatnam, Verse 3. It is like using a thorn to remove the thorn that has stuck onto your sole.
When that thorn is removed, both the thorns are thrown away. There is no need for japas and prayers,
after attaining chitta suddhi and then self inquiry is pursued.     

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 29, 2012, 08:04:39 PM
Subramanian,
Kanchi Mahaswami explains how a bundle of sticks tied together can be untied-they just temporarily wrap another rope around the sticks and tighten it even further so that the original knotted rope comes loose ;one then unwraps the temporary one as well and the bundle of sticks fall apart.
Nishkamya Karma is such a process and certainly leads to jnana.
I will try to dig out this talk of Kanchi Mahaswami and post it.

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 29, 2012, 08:26:48 PM
Dear Ravi,

Yes. I have also heard this story. But you can post full details.

In Saiva Siddhantam, they say that there are four types of devotees:

1. Sariyai - where devotees do closely related work to Siva puja, like prayers, sahasranama japa, bathing Siva Lingam and
adorning Siva Lingam with cloth, placing garlands etc., eg. Somasi Mara Nayanar, Rudra Pasupati Nayanar, Neelakanta Yazhpanar
and a few others.

2. Kriyai - where devotees do work some what distantly related to Siva puja. Like cleaning up the temple precincts, with a spade,
to remove the weeds, taking care of the flower gardens, nanda vanam, making sandal paste. preparing prasadam food items,
drawing water from well or tank for puja purposes and also cleaning the precincts. In fact Tiru Navukkarasar was doing these.

3. Yoga - Siva Raja yogam. Chandikeswara Nayanar. Always in Siva Nishtai and also of course, doing pujas for Siva Lingam.

4. Jnanam - this includes bhakti too. Tiru Jnana Sambandhar and Sundaramurti and Maniikkavachagar.

Arunachala Siva.

Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Beloved Abstract on May 29, 2012, 10:30:36 PM
the thought that you can control the mind is a trick of the mind ... because the "you" that seeks to control the mind IS the mind
who you think you are is only a story and controlling the mind is a part of that story
simply stop telling the story of the self and see if there is any need for control
without a story what is there to control ?
 :)
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 30, 2012, 09:02:31 AM
Friends,
Everyone thinks his watch shows the correct time!Sadhana is done with the mind-and broadly speaking there are three approaches:
1.Jnana Vichara-The way of self-enquiry as expounded by Sri Bhagavan.Find out the source of the 'I' sense that everyone one is so familiar with.Trace it to the source -that is Being.
2.Yoga-Gain control over the modifications of the mind and make it subtler and subtler and merge it in the Being.
3.Bhakti-The way of love wherein the 'I' sense is dissolved in the Being (Bhagavan).

Each approach has its predominant mode of approach-Thought for Jnana,Will for Yoga,Feeling for Bhakti.This does not mean that a Janai will not make use of will or feeling or a Yogi will not make use of Thought or Feeling or a Bhakta will not make use of Thought and will.It just indicates the Predominant mode of approach.Each approach embeds the others in varying degree.

The problem lies here:
1. in compartmentalizing these approaches as if these are water tight and have no relationship to each other.
2.In hierarchizing the approaches -C leads to B leads to A.

The problem is further compounded by a clash of attitudes among the approaches:
1.The one who follows the jnana approach and hence develops an attitude 'sivOham' proclaims the same to others.He insists that they share this attitude which obviously they need not!He then tries to Project 'Attitude' as 'Attainment' and is at the same time  forced to qualify the 'Attainment' by saying that 'Stabilization' is Required to 'maintain' the attainment.To clear this contradiction he has to take an extreme position 'Nothing is to be attained.It is already there'.
There is nothing to be realized.Self alone is.This is an attitude and not Realization.

2.The Bhakta ,on the other hand develops an intimate relationship with Bhagavan and considers himself not as ALLbut as 'insignificant' part of Bhagavan who is his all in all,his very self.He wonders how the one following Jnana approach considers this 'insignificant self' as the ALL!

As long as we understand that 'attitudes' are only 'attitudes' and cannot be projected as TRUTH  valid for one and all,there is clarity.Each one need not step on the other.
What needs to be kept in mind is that 'attitudes' are for oneself and not to be proclaimed or projected outside for the world at large to accept and abide.

Eventually each sadhaka will be aware that he is making use of all the Faculties of the mind-Thinking ,will and Feeling for sadhana .The sooner he realizes that all approaches are valid that much the better for him and the others with whom he shares.

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 30, 2012, 10:45:40 AM
Dear Ravi,
            :) That Attitude is a part of sadhana & when it becomes effortless its sahaja. Thats all.

BTW ... there are indeed 3 attitudes. The Nishta or "where one remains seated" is Awareness/Self. There is only one nishta. thts Self. One may use Jnana attitude/ Bhakti attitude based on one's disposition or one may observe the breath and when mind remains relatively calm remain there.

In essence there are same. Note : If one does not "Atma-Nishta", then what ever the approach... it failed.
God is Atma. Self. Awareness. Nothing more.

You have already Reached it. If mind tells u otherwise, dont agree with mind. As long as mind keeps telling otherwise practise is required.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 30, 2012, 11:11:21 AM
udai,
There is nothing like an approach Failing.There is no Failure.
It is simply a terminology issue-For one God is imagination,for the other it is Presence!Whether the Presence is called self or god ,it does not matter.Why bother to say it is 'This' or 'That'?
Namaskar.


Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 30, 2012, 11:18:07 AM
Dear Ravi,
          :)  I know people who pray every day and still cannot stand simple test of time. They are tensed and worried. Even people who get emotional while singing, and as Swami Vivekananda says, when that emotion subsides their baser [sexual etc] tendencies are too powerful for them to handle. So thats all failure of sadhana.

A sadhana is for a sadhya vastu. one should keep that in mind. that Sadhya vastu is abidance in Self. [not Self].

God is the Awareness or Presence ... no doubt abt that.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 30, 2012, 11:33:31 AM
Dear all,

Sri Bhagavan's description of Mind in Sri Arunachala Ashtakam verse 5 is quite tricky.  He says - "like polishing a ruby, one should
polish the mind on the stone of mind..."  Now how to polish the mind with mind that is stone? Are there two minds? How to
understand this. Translators and commentators have broken their heads in describing this. One says the 'separate mind' should
be polished on the grindstone of Universal Mind. Where has Sri Bhagavan said, grindstone, universal mind etc.,? One Tamizh
scholar told me, it is what is called in Tamizh poetry koNdu koottu poruL, one should presume words in between and then read
the meaning!  I was not convinced. Sri Bhagavan says maNi kadainthu en manam manam enum kallil....  He says only mind and mind
that is stone. That is all.

Another said: It is like a dog shaking itself and then removing the dust and dirt on its body. This seems to be somewhat more
convincing. But Sri Bhagavan did not bring in any dog or cat in the poem.

Annamalai Swami says: An elephant is made out of wood. If we see it as wood, it is wood only. But if we get caught up in the
name and form, we will see only an elephant and forget that its underlying nature is wood.

All is your own Self. This form is different; that form is different. This is more powerful; that is worse. These are all judgments
you may when you see separate objects instead of having true vision that is all undifferentiated oneness.

//How to go about it? Direct the Mind inwards. By constant efforts, without any outward looking, the Mind becomes the Self.//                   

Annamalai Swami continues.....

The Ribhu Gita advises us to remember at all times, I am the Self. All is the Self. The entire universe is 'I'. If you can keep this
permanently in your mind, millions and millions of punyas will come to you. There were many books that Sri Bhagavan liked,
but Ribhu Gita was definitely one of the best. He once said that Ribhu Gita is a book for one's last life.

Arunachala Siva.   
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 30, 2012, 11:37:47 AM
Dear Subramanian,
          :) This whole discussion was about this alone:

The Ribhu Gita advises us to remember at all times, I am the Self. All is the Self. The entire universe is 'I'. If you can keep this
permanently in your mind, millions and millions of punyas will come to you. There were many books that Sri Bhagavan liked,
but Ribhu Gita was definitely one of the best. He once said that Ribhu Gita is a book for one's last life.


One should Firmly hold onto this conclusion. Always, all the time. Continuously. I AM THE SELF --- I AM NOT THE BODY OR MIND.

IF SELF IS UNDERSTOOD AS AWARENESS thats sufficient.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 30, 2012, 11:53:29 AM
Saint Tayumanavar says in parAparakkaNNi:

poorAyamAi manathaip pokka aRiyAmal  ayyo
 ArAy alainthen arase parAparame!

Here poorAmAi  means step by step. The mind can be jettisoned only by step by step. It needs a lot of efforts.  How to simply
say I am the Self and be quiet thereafter? The mind  would still be wagging its tail. So the mind has to be controlled and made
quiescent only by step by step. The saint poet says ayyo ArAy alainthen - that is he suffered a great time with this effort, (without
result).

What is the use of debtes? Nochur Venkataraman says: In Palghat there was a debate between two scholars as to what is
correct?  Srishti Drishti or Drishti Srishti concept. They were debating in Sanskrit. One old lady remarked: Why are they fighting
in Sanskrit? If they fight in Malayalam, at least something will be understood.

All debates are like this. One concept. Then for that one would write kaNdanam. The first one would then write kaNdana KaNdanam....
ad nauseum.

Tayumanavar says, in the same parAparak KaNNi:

choodu AdvAr pol thuvaNdu thuvaNdu manam
vAdhAdine enna palan vaikkum parAparame?

Like the gamblers having terrific restlessness of mind, what is the use of debates? O Lord of the Lord!
See Anand - Gelfand World Chess Championship Tournament!  See their restlessness and walking up and down....                 
See their combing of hair with fingers. See their drinking water or some drink of and on......
 
There is no end.

Tayumanavar says:

chinam iRakka kaRRAlum siddhi ellAm peRRAlum
manam iRakka kallArku vAi En parAparame!

Mind should die. Mind should die. Summa Iru. Summa Iru.

Since most of us do not know how to remain Summa, all these come.

Arunachala Siva. 
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 30, 2012, 11:57:14 AM
Summar iru ... means just be right ?
and just be is not about not doing anything.
Debates or no debates... activities or no activities. nothing matter.

one has to be Firm that one is the Self. Annamalai Swami said one has to hold onto it. thats all. he did not say beginning do something else.

that mind's ways to escape. it does not want to Remain as Self. You can read a thread called tips for sadhana to understand how every sadhana can be done with this. So no question of not holding onto Self. mind does not want to. it says its impossible.

mind need not be killed. its never alive -- its only an appearance. like a shadow. one needs to stop agreeing with it when it "Appears"
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 30, 2012, 12:19:24 PM
udai,
"I know people who pray every day and still cannot stand simple test of time. They are tensed and worried"
Same is true for people who think they are pursuing the jnana path!Even such a one like Totapuri was not an exception!
Here is the story :
From Sri Ramakrishna Totapuri had to learn the significance of Kali, the Great Fact of the
relative world, and of maya, Her indescribable Power.
One day, when guru and disciple were engaged in an animated discussion about Vedanta, a
servant of the temple garden came there and took a coal from the sacred fire that had been
lighted by the great ascetic. He wanted it to light his tobacco. Totapuri flew into a rage and
was about to beat the man. Sri Ramakrishna rocked with laughter. "What a shame!" he
cried. "You are explaining to me the reality of Brahman and the illusoriness of the world;
yet now you have so far forgotten yourself as to be about to beat a man in a fit of passion.
The power of maya is indeed inscrutable!
" Totapuri was embarrassed.

We need not look at others.The Devotee of God does not have any individual asset to protect or worry about.His asset is God.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 30, 2012, 12:22:38 PM
:) but u just now said there is no failure in sadhana ?

Totapuri case v will talk later.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 30, 2012, 12:32:05 PM
udai,
Yes there are challenges to be overcome but certainly no Failure.Whatever shortcomings are there will have to be surrendered.
Here is an excellent Prayer of Sri Ramakrishna:
Master's prayer
Then he said: "To my Divine Mother I prayed only for pure love. I offered flowers at Her
Lotus Feet and prayed to Her: 'Mother, here is Thy virtue, here is Thy vice. Take them both
and grant me only pure love for Thee. Here is Thy knowledge, here is Thy ignorance. Take
them both and grant me only pure love for Thee. Here is Thy purity, here is Thy impurity.
Take them both, Mother, and grant me only pure love for Thee. Here is Thy dharma, here is
Thy adharma. Take them both, Mother, and grant me only pure love for Thee.'

No need to discuss Totapuri.Just Gave an example.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 30, 2012, 12:44:53 PM
:) its true that sadhana has no failure, coz it will eventually give its own fruit and mature.
but then, its failure in the relative sense ... thats what u called challenges.

so terminology difference there. thats fine.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 30, 2012, 12:56:08 PM
Subramanian,
Yes,ThAyumAnavar's songs are simply wonderful.I completely concur with what you have expressed.Here is a verse from thAyumAnavar's Siddhar gaNam:

கல்லாத பேர்களே நல்லவர்கள் நல்லவர்கள்
      கற்றும்அறி வில்லாதஎன்
   கர்மத்தை யென்சொல்கேன்மதியையென் சொல்லுகேன்
      கைவல்ய ஞானநீதி
நல்லோ ருரைக்கிலோ கர்மமுக் கியமென்று
      நாட்டுவேன் கர்மமொருவன் 
   நாட்டினா லோபழைய ஞானமுக்கியமென்று
      நவிலுவேன் வடமொழியிலே
வல்லா னொருத்தன்வர வுந்த்ரா விடத்திலே
      வந்ததா விவகரிப்பேன்
   வல்லதமி ழறிஞர்வரின் அங்ஙனே வடமொழியி
      வசனங்கள் சிறிதுபுகல்வேன்
வெல்லாம லெவரையும் மருட்டிவிட வகைவந்த
      வித்தையென் முத்திதருமோ
   வேதாந்த சித்தாந்த சமரசநன் னிலைபெற்ற
      வித்தகச் சித்தர்கணமே!

Indeed, indeed
Are they the goodly ones,
That have learning none.
What shall I speak of my fate,
My intelligence, who, though learned,
Is possessed of wisdom none?
If the good people say:
The jnana path of liberation is the exalted one,
I argue that the karma path is all important.
If someone argues, karma is the important path,
I turn round and say that jnana is all important.
If one learned in Sanskrit comes to argue,
I speak of the exalted truths expounded in Tamil.
If pundits learned in Tamil similarly come,
I smatter a few slokas in Sanskrit.
Thus, confusing all, establishing nothing decisive,
Will this learning ever lead to mukti?
Oh! Thou, the Siddha Elite of Divine Light
That hath reached the Vedanta-Siddhanta accord high!

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: prasanth_ramana_maharshi on May 30, 2012, 01:13:06 PM
yes lord krishna assures that even if failure occurs in this present life our good deeds will get carried over.

Chapter 6, Verse 37.

Arjuna said: What is the destination of the man of faith who does not persevere, who in the beginning takes to the process of self-realization but who later desists due to worldly-mindedness and thus does not attain perfection in mysticism?

Chapter 6, Verse 40.
The Blessed Lord said: Son of Prtha, a transcendentalist engaged in auspicious activities does not meet with destruction either in this world or in the spiritual world; one who does good, My friend, is never overcome by evil.

Chapter 6, Verse 41.

The unsuccessful yogi, after many, many years of enjoyment on the planets of the pious living entities, is born into a family of righteous people, or into a family of rich aristocracy.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 30, 2012, 01:24:25 PM
udai/Prashant,
Even in the relative sense there is no Failure but only a setback.It becomes a failure only when one  abandons effort.
Namaskar
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 30, 2012, 01:39:51 PM
Dear Ravi,

"The devotee of god has no asset to protect. His only asset is God."

Sri Bhagavan proved this in many instances. The incident of thieves coming to the Asramam is well known. The thieves stormed
in and started throwing upside  down all the few contents inside the Virupaksha Cave.  They threatened that they would beat
them up.  Sri Bhagavan kept quiet. Kunju Swami, though indignant also kept quiet. Finally not finding anything useful (money or
gold) on their way back they beat Sri Bhagavan on His leg. Sri Bhagavan showed His other leg too!  Again, it was our good man
Friday's job, Pazhani Swami,  to apply oil and massage Sri Bhagavan's leg.

When the thieves were caught by the local police, and brought to Sri Bhagavan, He said: There was not theft at all. None
of these people came to the Ashram also.  The thieves were let off!

One Western devotee asked Sri Bhagavan: Should we then leave all possessions?  (to attain liberation)

Sri Bhagavan replied: The possessor too.

The possessor is a greater hurdle to the door of liberation!
 
Arunachala Siva. 
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 30, 2012, 01:48:28 PM
There is a wonderful story that illustrates leaving the possessor.
there was a king who wanted to reach God.
So he prayed a lot and in the night an angel appeared to him.
The angel said "I want to guide you. Please see. The burden of kingdom and all the responsibilities is too much"
"with so much burden u cannot reach God."

The king was sincere. He said "OK!" and the next day he left the whole kingdom and everything and started towards Himalayas.

On his way, the angel appeared agian to him. He said "See, now i left everything. Tell me how to reach God"

and the angel said "Sir, as i said u cannot carry any burden. in this journey even ur shawl and the dress you wear can be a burden.Anything you are carrying is a burden".

The next day he left all those. He was totally naked. And he walked about. Again the angel appeared. He said
"OK! Now I left everything. I am really eager now. Tell me how to reach God. There is no possession now."

the angel said "My dear sir, if you have left everything ... you need not reach God. You will be in the lap of God that very moment"

:) Leaving everything is not about leaving the possessions but the possessor.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: nonduel on May 30, 2012, 04:15:28 PM
That possessor is the belief that I am the body.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 30, 2012, 04:25:08 PM
true

Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 30, 2012, 06:51:56 PM
nonduel/friends,
"That possessor is the belief that I am the body"
What happens in sleep? :)
Namaskar
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 30, 2012, 06:56:59 PM
The possessor is dormant.
undergone laya...
just as most people meditate and go into laya.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 30, 2012, 07:00:32 PM
udai,
What happens to the attitude -'Self alone is' during sleep?
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: prasanth_ramana_maharshi on May 30, 2012, 07:00:56 PM
as known waking = dream states as innumerably times mentioned by bhagavan.

In deep-sleep only conciousness with no awarness remains which is close to our real nature.

but we should not aim to sleep 24/7 which is not actually not possible anyways..

if our aim is to sleep always then a small anesthesia will provide moksha for all humans in this planet..
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 30, 2012, 07:17:02 PM
prashant,
Since Waking state=Dream State,How do you continue Sadhana in dream State?
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 30, 2012, 07:28:02 PM
:D u do not need to continue any sadhana in dream state! Lol ... u r already doing it now.since waking = dream.

Rather ... what all u r doing here is in a dream anyways :D
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 30, 2012, 07:34:51 PM
udai,
You mean 'Sivoham' attitude is a Dream That disappears in Sleep! :)
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 30, 2012, 07:39:45 PM
:) Any attitude, being a function of mind, is a part of the dream. Without doubt.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: prasanth_ramana_maharshi on May 30, 2012, 07:45:41 PM
ravi garu,

we should not mix dream and waking states.

so ideally any doubts regarding dreams should be asked in dream state only sir.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 30, 2012, 07:52:48 PM
Dear Prashant,
       :) and ya ya ... thats where he is asking right now :D
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 30, 2012, 07:54:34 PM
udai,
Self Realization is unrelated to 'Self alone is' Dream?
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 30, 2012, 07:57:05 PM
Raviji,
        Question is not clear. Can you please restate what the question is ?
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: nonduel on May 30, 2012, 07:59:47 PM
nonduel/friends,
"That possessor is the belief that I am the body"
What happens in sleep? :)
Namaskar

The possessor appears as soon as the waking state appears.

All the present thread is a debate wether "we" have a body or not. Some hold on strongly that they are the body and consequentely they have to "do" all sort of things to reach, to attain the Self. 

Everything that keeps one's attention outward in all sort of activities, strenghten the belief I am a body. Who else can do these activities?

The core of the teaching is BE STILL! No matter how much knowledge I can accumulate, it is all mind knowledge. And it is adding to the difficulty. Jesus said, I will translate the word from French the best I can: "Bless are the ignorant because they will see the glory of Heaven"  It is roughly this.

Sri Nisargadatta repeadetly said the same thing, and real sadhana is effortless. All the difficulties are created by the mind, we have the choice to refuse what the mind says.

It somewhat amazes me with how much energy some sadhakas strongly beleive that they are the body. Even the desire for moksha is to be dropped!

You mentionned my dear Raviji that I had much earnestness in a recent post, please do not consider my writting "style" as being negative or trying to impose my beliefs. It is with all my Love that I write.

Beside it is happening all by itself through consciousness, I am the Self in the background. I Love all of you!
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 30, 2012, 08:05:02 PM
udai,
Let me frame it differently-What is the nature of pure awareness that is free from Waking,Dream and sleep state?
Is it different than all that we have been discussing here?i.e We have been discussing only consciousness!
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 30, 2012, 08:06:45 PM
Dear prasanth,

Waking state = Dream state is only from the standpoint of Reality, the Absolute. Or to a person who has realized that Reality.

Gaudapada also says in his Karika that there is no difference between the two states only from the standpoint of
Reality - Absolute. Sri Bhagavan also says so. But this is for Realized Persons and not for all and even to seekers.

The dream is for the one who says that he is awake. In fact, wakefulness and dream are equally unreal from the standpoint
of the Absolute Reality.  Because one find the dream creations transitory, in relation to the waking state there is said to be
a difference.  The difference is only apparent and and not real. But all these again are only for those who have not yet realized
Self.

Sri Bhagavan used to say whenever a person, complains that he is getting sleepy, while meditating: You go to sleep. No harm.
But as you wake up, continue your meditation.

The dream is a combination of Jagrat and Sushupti. It is due to the Samskaras of the Jagrat state. Hence we remember dreams
at present. Smaskaras are not formed contrariwise. Therefore, also we are not aware of the dream and Jagrat simultaneously.
Still everyone will recollect strange perplexities in dream. One wonders if he dreams or is awake. He argues and determines that he\
is only awake. When really awake, he finds that it was only a dream.

Arunachala Siva.           
   
   
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: nonduel on May 30, 2012, 08:07:19 PM
udai,
Let me frame it differently-What is the nature of pure awareness that is free from Waking,Dream and sleep state?
Is it different than all that we have been discussing here?i.e We have been discussing only consciousness!
Namaskar.

Yes!  Sri Nisargadatta used consciousness to design the consciousness related to the body, the I AMness. He used Awareness for the Absolute, or the Self.

Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 30, 2012, 08:09:22 PM
nonduel,
 :)
Thanks very much for that saying of Jesus.I will certainly look it up.I will go through your post again to see all that you have to say.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 30, 2012, 08:12:46 PM
Dear Raviji,

Quote
udai,
Let me frame it differently-What is the nature of pure awareness that is free from Waking,Dream and sleep state?
Is it different than all that we have been discussing here?i.e We have been discussing only consciousness!
Namaskar.

Awareness is ever free of three. Those states belong to the upadhi.
Tell me when is it that Awareness is not free of them ? Awareness is Brahman, thats changeless.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 30, 2012, 08:21:18 PM
udai,
Let me put this question again in a different manner-The Statement 'Everyone is already Realized' is a statement that was made.What is the nature of this Realization?
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 30, 2012, 08:24:32 PM
:) The Realization is at the level of the bondage. With respect to the bound one, there is mukti.
Thats why Shankara says : Na Muktir na Bandho.
:)
Though statement is at the same level as the bondage... it negates bondage and both end leaving neither mukti nor bandah.

as in the case of thorn taking out a thorn.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 30, 2012, 08:27:55 PM
udai,
How many thorns we are left with now! :)
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 30, 2012, 08:30:11 PM
:) only one!
The idea u r mind.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 30, 2012, 08:33:21 PM
Udai/Friends,
 :)
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: nonduel on May 30, 2012, 08:38:13 PM
The saying of Jesus is in Matthew 5:1-12 Introduction to the Sermon on the Mount

When Jesus* saw the crowds, he went up the mountain; and after he sat down, his disciples came to him. 2Then he began to speak, and taught them, saying:
 
3 ‘Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.


 The French version is "creux" or "pauvre en esprit". Both words mean not very intelligent.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Beloved Abstract on May 31, 2012, 06:42:40 AM
be still is the teaching ... and yet here we are not being still in asking questions and answering .
everything on this forum is mind .
the "you" that wants to know is simply the mind tricking itself in order to avoid truth .
the mind ( who you think you are ) will never know truth .
be still means STOP trying to know .
stop .
really stop .
stop believing in getting realization .
stop believing in getting rid of ego .
stop all beliefs .... even the belief that you are you .
in this stopping is the truth you have been seeking .
stop seeking , it is the SEEKING ITSELF that keeps you from what you seek .
stop ... and see the truth of who you really are that is already here .
stop and see what can never be lost and can never be found.
stop ........ really stop
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 31, 2012, 06:54:37 AM
Beloved Abstract,
 :)
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 31, 2012, 07:09:12 AM
nonduel,
‘Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven'
What a wonderful saying of the Lord!The Sermon on the Mount is indeed Jesus Upanishad.How many 'single sentence' Statements of Light,Power and Love that the Lord has uttered!

'Blessed are the poor in spirit'-Means to give up the ego that says 'I am a Jnani' 'I am a Yogi' 'I have Realized' 'I have Great inner Experience'-all these so called 'inner wealth'-Give it up all and be 'poor in spirit'.
This is what Sri Bhagavan says 'Give up the possessor too'.
It is not giving up the idea 'I am the Body',it is giving up 'I am somebody' and become a 'nobody'
This is what Sri Ramakrishna says in that parable of the calf that cried 'Hamba' (which you were thinking is moralistic!).'Ham' is 'I'
and ultimately after all those travails,it says 'tuhu'(the twang of the string)-'tuhu' means Thou.It says 'Tuhu' 'tuhu'-Thou!Thou!Thou alone.
Thanks very much for sharing these wonderful words of Lord Jesus.
'Where two or three are gathered in my name,there I am in their midst'

Namaskar
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 31, 2012, 10:37:25 AM
Dear Beloved Abstract,
         Being Still is not "NON-ACTIVITY". Its beyond Activity.
Which means whether one is involved in activities or not. Whether one does anything or not. One is Stillness. To Be that Stillness even when involving in any sort of activities.

Thats BE STILL.

So Neither Questioning nor Answering are opposed to it. They are simply of different dimentions.

Here is the point: You are playing the role of Rama in one drama and Ravana in another drama ... now tell me ... To Know that you are not the role but the one who plays the roles ... is one supposed to play Rama role or Ravana role ? Or Remain Silent in the role or Act in the role ? :) Or Should one stop playing roles?
none of these. One just needs to recognize oneself as the other dimention... the one thats beyond and remain thus while acting or non-acting. if without knowing one stops acting ... one gets into laya as in deep sleep.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 31, 2012, 02:17:07 PM
The Mind is everything. That's is how this topic began. But don't you ask yourself the question - why does the Mind create suffering to Itself? Why?
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 31, 2012, 02:43:54 PM
udai,
This is in response to your posts in the other thread on self Enquiry;Did not want to respond there as our friend Anil has so wonderfully stuck to the topic so diligently.
Your Logic or anubhavam mean nothing as long as they are supporting something that is fundamentally incorrect! :)
We were discussing Bhava.Bhava has nothing to do with studyof scriptures.It has nothing to do with the Intellect.
You are veering off the topic and trying to justify yourself.I find all your statements are punctuated with a Capital 'I' -No estimation is required to understand that.
I also find that you wish to have the last word on any discussion.
I have seen your views on Emotion ,etc -I find that you have totally lost your way there and come to wrong conclusion.
We have just set foot on the path and any exaggerated view of our so called 'Anubhava' can be counterproductive in spiritual Living.
I have also gone through your Tips on Sadhana -I can only suggest that you may need a guru or if you already have one ,do consult him.

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 31, 2012, 02:50:03 PM
Dear Ramana,

Mind does not create sufferings. It is the bad thoughts that sprout from the mind creates sufferings. Sri Bhagavan speaks of
Suddha Manas or Pure Mind where there is only bliss and happiness.

Arunachala Siva. 
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 31, 2012, 02:55:20 PM
Sri Subramanian, yes. But consider this situation.
 
Imagine a child born with genetic defect or malformation which don't allow it to feel well physically. Or old man suffering from painful arthritis. Can pure mind remove these afflictions?
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 31, 2012, 02:55:52 PM
Quote
Your Logic or anubhavam mean nothing as long as they are supporting something that is fundamentally incorrect!
We were discussing Bhava.Bhava has nothing to do with studyof scriptures.It has nothing to do with the Intellect.
You are veering off the topic and trying to justify yourself.I find all your statements are punctuated with a Capital 'I' -No estimation is required to understand that.
I also find that you wish to have the last word on any discussion.
I have seen your views on Emotion ,etc -I find that you have totally lost your way there and come to wrong conclusion.
We have just set foot on the path and any exaggerated view of our so called 'Anubhava' can be counterproductive in spiritual Living.
I have also gone through your Tips on Sadhana -I can only suggest that you may need a guru or if you already have one ,do consult him.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Does anyone see the allegations ?
Subramanian ji ? You were saying I am dismissing ! Do you see this ?

Is it about the topic in any way ?

"I" -- capitals !! do you see ?

1. I need to consult a guru ... I am supporting something thats fundamentally wrong [ no explanation given in both cases]
2. bhava has nothing to do with "intellect" ;) ... the answer i gave ... is not logically dismissed ... just dismissed !
3. I wish to have the last word in any discussion :) ... no sir! i do not have any such wish ... anyways ... the first few verses are totally dismissed.
4. There is an exaggerated view of "our so called" anubhavam !! LOL!! Anubhavam is not an Experience. ITs Being... there cannot be an exaggerated view on it! anyways ... its an allegation on me!

5. What have you found on "Tips on Sadhana ? " Did you understand any of it ? Try any of it ? Tips was a sharing. Anyways ... becoz of that we need a guru!!

Harih om! Is this forum getting biased now ?
Harih om!
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 31, 2012, 02:59:17 PM
udai,
Observe the Reaction now :)
You were saying yesterday that people get restless ,worried,etc.
All our anubhava comes to naught with a few simple words from a person you do not even know! :)
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 31, 2012, 03:00:09 PM
Dear srkudai,

This is where the Hindu theory of philosophy of Prarabdha comes into force. But for a healthy person it is his thoughts
that create sufferings. If that suffering person had attained Jnana, there won't be any feeling of pain or inadequacy.
Till such time, the prarabdha will give him suffering.

Arunachala Siva.     
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 31, 2012, 03:03:34 PM
:D Do you see ?
I said something and you interpreted it as "I AM Suffering"!!

this is what happens if u try to talk about the person rather than the topic!!

I was just showing what u r saying ... i am not the least touched ... i will not be even the least touched.

its not anubhavam if it comes to a naught.

i am still only showing that this is the trend !! i am not the least troubled ... even if u say what ever u want to say.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 31, 2012, 03:07:16 PM
That means ... Anubhavam means  : reacting in a prototype style.
what ever u say. i wont contradict and remain seated in silence !!

if i ever answer ... i "Lose" that anubhavam. :D
is it? is it so easy to lose your understanding ?
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 31, 2012, 03:13:44 PM
udai,
Anubhavam is an experience;anubhuti is what is beyond all experiences.
Which one do you claim to have?What is it?
I hope you recollect our yesterday's discussion.
How many Thorns are left? :)
Answer Straight.What happens to the anubhavam as you call it in sleep?
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 31, 2012, 03:17:54 PM
Dear Raviji,
     :) I already told you earlier that you are concentrating on me rather than the subject.
you are supposed to concentrate on subject , not me.

Anyways ... Anu-Bhav ... Bhav means to "Be"
To "Be" is all about Anubhavam.
IF you did not get this ... ask questions on what it is ... not on me ...
I do not CLAIM special powers or visions .
I AM !! thats all . Aham Asmi.

You are no different. only you disagree ! dont own up. its  your choice.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 31, 2012, 03:24:31 PM
Udai,
My Understanding of anuBhava(not bhAvam) is 'Becoming' and not 'Being'.
What happens to this 'I AM' in sleep?
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 31, 2012, 03:32:30 PM
:D

u cannot have ur own understanding about a sanskrit term.
use your own term if you want !!

I AM is changeless ! whether in sleep or otherwise. Coz I AM is not "Feeling"
its "Being".
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 31, 2012, 03:41:53 PM
udai,
You may check the sanskrit Dictionary regarding anubhava and anubhuti.

Where is the question of 'I AM' in Sleep or 'Being'?

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 31, 2012, 03:46:32 PM
Quote
I AM is changeless ! whether in sleep or otherwise. Coz I AM is not "Feeling"
its "Being".

I agree and disagree. I am is not changeless. I am is a combination of words. For "I am" there must be an "I" to say that or at least to feel that. In sleep there is no one to say "I am". Changeless is only the Reality which is the foundation of all other feeling, names, forms, intuitions..... you name it. So what is the Self. The Self is not something which is 'yours' or 'mine'. It is not something which you are (because this creates the confusion between the so called illusionary "I" and the Real "I"). That's why Lord Buddha very harshly has thought against the Self - because this were creating confusion among sadhakas that they (something deep within them) is This Self. But this is a lie. What is the Self? The Mind is not the Self, thoughrs are not the Self, the body is not the Self, the feelings are not the Self, the intuitions are not the Self, the memory are not the Self..... nothing 'yours', you name it, is not the Self. Then Buddha asked the logical question - 'Then why call this final Reality the Self'? The Self actually just means that you are not different from Brahman but by your ignorance you are deluding yourself that you are some creature with body and states of consciousness, subtle or more prominent. So I am, The Self are just pointers to what cannot be described.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 31, 2012, 03:56:34 PM
Dear Ramana,

I have answered your point regarding genetic defects and suffering. Only the post was addressed to srkudai. Please see the thread
from the earlier page.

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 31, 2012, 03:58:47 PM
Dear Ramana,

The Self is achalam. It does not have a second person to point out. Instead of saying I am the Self, find out what Self is,
by rendering the mind quiescent.

ThAne thAne tattuvam idhanai
thAne kAttuvAi Arunachala!


Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 31, 2012, 04:01:24 PM
oh ! I AM is changing ! ok.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: nonduel on May 31, 2012, 04:08:47 PM
be still is the teaching ... and yet here we are not being still in asking questions and answering .
everything on this forum is mind .
the "you" that wants to know is simply the mind tricking itself in order to avoid truth .
the mind ( who you think you are ) will never know truth .
be still means STOP trying to know .
stop .
really stop .
stop believing in getting realization .
stop believing in getting rid of ego .
stop all beliefs .... even the belief that you are you .
in this stopping is the truth you have been seeking .
stop seeking , it is the SEEKING ITSELF that keeps you from what you seek .
stop ... and see the truth of who you really are that is already here .
stop and see what can never be lost and can never be found.
stop ........ really stop

Yes!!
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 31, 2012, 04:19:36 PM
Quote
oh ! I AM is changing ! ok.

Mhm. I AM is changing like any other description of the mind. Am I wrong? What is not changing we cannot say it, cannot grasp it, cannot describe it, cannot see it, cannot feel it, cannot touch it, cannot smell it, cannot taste it. To say "I am" is the only reality and the only real thing is just attachment to another conception of the Mind. Jesus always never has taught His followers the way Indian Gurus do it. Does that mean that His teachings are lower and His jnana inferior? To say one teaching and way of describing of the Reality (God) is higher or truer than another is the same as to say that the Mind is higher and truer than the Mind. Is not that funny?
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 31, 2012, 04:26:36 PM
udai,
What did you mean by 'revelling in the Self'? :)
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 31, 2012, 04:32:20 PM
Dear Ramana,
          :) See if you can find that I have answered "undescribability of Self", somewhere else already


Dear Ravi ji,
          :) I think I have already answered that as well. Please see the posts , may be you can see what I was saying then.

BTW ... :) Do you know sanskrit. Anu-Bhav... Anu as prefix and Bhav as dhatu. Can you see the meanings in dictionary ? :D
Sanskrit dictionary cannot be properly used unless one has a knowledge of word formation.
I do not claim i am an expert. But that derivation is very well correct.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 31, 2012, 04:58:21 PM
I will, Sri Udai, thank you!

The truth is that I cannot argue with you about all these Sanskrit and terminology stuff and I don't want because it is meaningless. I have seen that among christians. They talk day and night about what the Lord was wanted to say, why He has used this word or that word making dissection to the dot. I don't think it would bring some merit. So I want to talk about all this discussion about what the Reality, Mind and so on is. And about Self inquiry. All Ramana devotees proclaim that the Self-inquiry is the most direct path to Self-realization. They heartedly preach that we all must do it if we want to be free in 'no time'. I don't accept that view. I accept that Self-inquiry is the most direct way but it is not the best for everyone. How could a method to which a devotee is not inclined at all be beneficial to it? I don't think that Sri Subramanian for example who is prone to bhakti marga less spiritual aware than most of the devotees who are doing mainly Self-inquiry? And Sri Subramanian is just an example. Where is the proof that any method is superior than another? How many Self-realized people do you know to objectively prove anything? All my life I have seen not Self-realized persons but persons whose ego plays with that of the others. I have seen many teachings and have read about many Teachers (Gurus). But I have never seen teachings like that of the Bhagavan Ramana, Bhagavan Sri Ramakrishna and Lord Jesus. Those Higher Souls taught me that knowing the Self is a destination which can reached by many paths. Bhakti, jnana, karma, raja yoga, no matter how would you call it - all these when done sincerely one day will lead their followers to the Final Goal.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on May 31, 2012, 05:04:09 PM
Dear Ramana.

I AM - refers to the state one animate thing is.  This is called Swarupa Vedyam.  In a dark room where there is no light,
you may not know whether the friends who were with him had left or not. But You are there.  To know that I am there,
does not require any light because I am ness is Self Effulgent or Self indicating.  All others he, she, they, you, it -- are all
indriya vedyam - ie. that which can be known only be indriyas, senses, with of course light.

I AM THAT I AM - the Biblical quote is therefore  correct. It says my Swarupa Vedyam is only my Swarupa Vedyam.

Sri Bhagavan says, Aham sphurana, the experience of Aham, I,  is  attained by keeping the mind away from aham vritti,
the thoughts which are first sprouting from the thought 'i'.

The thinking has no place in Self realization. Excepting initially you ask Who am I?. Thereafter, after all the neti neti processes,
your attention should go within, self-ward without any further thinking.

That is why Sri Bhagavan said:

thirumbi ahanthanai thinam ahak kaN kAn
theriyum enRanai Arunachala!

He says: O Arunachala ! You said: "Everyday you turn inward and see within, it will show up."

What will show up? What is it? Sri Bhagavan   did not elaborate because it is your experience and one need not say that.

That is why Jesus said: The Kingdom of God is within you. He did not elaborate - think that the kingdom of god is within you.           

Even Descartes when he said: I think I therefore I am - referred only to the little ''i' whose job is to think. He did not indicate
the Self, swaupam.   

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 31, 2012, 05:05:47 PM
:) Humm.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 31, 2012, 05:08:53 PM
udai,
I have very little knowledge of sanskrit.However we may consider  the words to understand the context -Bhavasagaram,Bhavarogam,Bhavabhayam-all these refer to
Relative existence and experiences.
Anubhavam is used to refer to  experiences on the relative plane.Anubhuti is used to refer to that which is beyond experiences.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 31, 2012, 05:14:32 PM
:)
Both Anubhavam and Anubhuti are used in literature to represent the ultimate Truth: Being the Self.

But if you want to take it that way its your choice.

Bhav - to be.

when one sees it as Sagaram, Rogam, Bhay etc ... are superimposed on "Bhav" ... in all the terms true meaning of Bhav is to remain changeless. When one sees it as one of these is based on what their minds tell them.

Sva-Svarupa-Anubhavam is a word , which sould then mean relative experience of Self. and then Sva-Svarupa-Anubhuti .. now it becames absolute ... Thats not the way its used in scriptures.

But if you say its relative ... i take that. Why create one more ripple here ?
Who cares for the truth ? We love to remain undisturbed !! Thats all.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 31, 2012, 05:32:51 PM
udai,
We have the Divine mother called as Bhavadharini-one who upholds this Relative existence.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 31, 2012, 05:55:53 PM
Sri Ravi, I have read some things about Sri Ramakrishna after His death. But I want to ask you because you know almost everything about Him. Where is (in what State is) Sri Ramakrishna now. I ask because some say (may be they have heard it from Him) that He is between Absolute and the Relative world.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 31, 2012, 06:16:15 PM
He is beyond absolute!
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on May 31, 2012, 07:01:43 PM
Ramana,
I will share what the Master Has said regarding what you have asked.I will post it in the Rough Note-book thread.
I am interested in knowing why you asked this .
Wonder what uday meant by being beyond the absolute!

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 31, 2012, 08:18:59 PM
Sri Udai, I agree with you that what we must is to find out where this 'I' emerge but don't you think that the topics you have opened had exactly this purpose. For example Hanuman Chalisa was very helpful to many members here and you know it. So I wonder why you deleted all your so-many-days works? You were the one who defended the position that discussions and Holy Books are very beneficial and suddenly you do just the opposite. Would you explain us way if you like?
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 31, 2012, 08:23:11 PM
:) I had two aims in writing them.
a) my own meditation
b) sharing with others.

(b) is no more served, for I have seen it.
(a) can be done in my notepad.

Study of holy books is a burden to be forgotten -- as i learn.

A definitely more fruitful discussion is : Where did Ramakrishna go after death [unfortunately i am yet to realize he died !! ]
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on May 31, 2012, 08:53:28 PM
I don't know where this irony and conceit have emerged. But ok. I understood your point of view.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on May 31, 2012, 09:06:15 PM
Dear Ramana,
          :) Frank Truth is ... if i am not supposed to say "I AM SELF, NOW HERE", I do not have anything to share.
I recognize that the various ways in which I was stating this only truth I know lead to all debates. 
Knowledge should be shared without disturbing the others... a lesson which is better learnt the hard way.

I will never accept i am the mind in my life - come what may. coz its suffering and i know its suffering.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on June 01, 2012, 08:20:49 AM
Ramana/Friends,
I came across this post of mine in David's Blog.I had responded to someone who asked about the Role of senses in Sadhana.I thought it will not be out of place to post it here as we are discussing the role of mind.It is shared on a as is where is basis!

What role the senses play in Realization?The core sense that sees through eyes,hears through the ears,smells through the Nose,tastes through the tongue and touches through the sense of touch is the mind.The senses provide the stimuli to the mind to evaluate and expand.The thinking mind is also called the sixth sense.The 5 senses are common to animals and homo sapiens.It is the Sixth sense that has the potential to differentiate Humans from the rest of creatures.
It is the sixth sense,the mind has to have its schooling in the world and through that to expand and relate to what it observes through the wonderful senses(Why depreciate the senses!).The mind derives joy and sorrow through such contacts with the outside world-It experiences joy when it touches something agreeable to it,or sorrow when it touches(I mean all the 5 senses)something not agreeable.It thus learns to seek only enjoyment and set aside misery.It anticipates what is going to come next and is unsure,uncertain of what is going to be experienced next-Is it Enjoyment or misery?This uncertainty is 'Fear'.
All creatures go through the cycle of Sukam,Dukkam and Bhayam.
Lesser creatures are content with just these three.In man,it creates the identity,the 'Ego'.He is not only the 'Enjoyer' but he wants to safe guard and enhance 'enjoyment'and avoid 'misery' through appropriate action,by action as a 'Doer'.This 'Doership' is what distinguishes Humans from the rest of creatures who are only 'Enjoyers'(by and large).In addition to just enjoying the world,he wants to thus expand his dominion and control the 'outcome'.He thus develops an 'image' in terms of power and position(this is common to animals to some extent)and also thus develops an 'image' of himself-I am 'So and so',I am great,I have to be respected by others,I have to be known by what I possess and what I profess,etc ,etc.
It is given to the thinking man to see the repetetive nature of Sukam,dukkam and Bhayam and graduate into something beyond.This Graduation is necessarily a Gradual process and surely the cycle of sukam,dukkam and bhayam cannot be wished away.
He thus learns to bridge the Gap between sukam and dukkam and he learns to employ the very same senses in a more refined way-This is where aesthetic sense comes in-Through the aesthetic sense,he finds that sorrow is profound as well and learns to enjoy sorrow as well!(I do not want to write an essay,but I want to project the 'Drift' from the earlier 'Black and white'scenario).
All arts and sciences spring from this noble purpose-Man appreciates Beauty,appreciate Good sounds and music,appreciate 'others',share with others and it is only through such interactions the refinement and schooling become complete.
It is only after this schooling is complete that one can expect to graduate into something 'Beyond' wherein the cycle turns and reaches into exploring one's identity-The core of Being.
This Grand discovery of the Being is necessarily the efflorescence in the Becoming.It cannot be discovered by stunting the 'Becoming',by a premature withdrawal.
I am cutting the story short-but I should say that senses indeed play a Great role in this efflorescence if the mind makes good use of them.
Nothing in nature is trivial that any man can say-'It is of no use'!
Refinement of the senses is an important and indispensable Sadhana -and this is why the way of Bhakti places the maximum importance on 'Poo mAlai' and 'pA MAlai'(Worship through Flowers and Worship through Songs.i.E that the aesthetic sense of Sight and Hearing and hence through words,should be placed at the service of the Lord).
Self Realization is not possible by just jettisoning or shutting out the senses and stopping the Machinery of the mind and stopping it forcibly.

I rarely post my thoughts or experiences and I do not claim any infallibility.Please ignore if you found it misplaced.
Namaskar
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on June 01, 2012, 10:19:30 AM
why talk of all this doer / doership / senses ??
once we read all this later v will find it difficult to forget!
All this burden of knowledge!
like a person starts speaking tut, fut when he wears suit and boots.
same way people talk all this when they get a little pride that they know.
lets not fall into this trap.

lets rather follow the "I" thought and see its root.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on June 01, 2012, 03:27:39 PM
Quote
why talk of all this doer / doership / senses ??

Very simple. Because we feel we are doers. Everything we do is with the sense of doership, even our attempts to be "non-doers". All spiritual practices - from mantras to Self-inquiry are done by the ego. So where this confusion comes from?
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on June 01, 2012, 03:32:14 PM
Dear Ramana,
           :) U r so right ... we feel we are doers.
so lets do practise ... why write and talk about doership ?
thats all intellectual.

lets rather look at the source of "I" !

it seems Ramaan encouraged Ribhu Gita chanting !! From page 1 to last it says "I AM SELF" how blasphemous for us who are "doers" to say such a thing ? we should avoid all chanting of Ribhu Gita also. and also it says we are not there !!! not at all correct for people like us. we are doers.

Accept we are Doers and then search for the root of "I" ... and eventually we will forget what ever we learnt and then remain realized ! thats when we may read ribhu.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on June 01, 2012, 03:37:49 PM
Yes, let's look for the Source of "I" but this doesn't mean that all other activities must be shun. Reading Ribhu Gita or whatever Scripture is very beneficial for sadhakas in my opinion. Because these Holy Texts consciously for us or not direct our mind to Its Source. So we cannot compare reading Ribhu Gita to smoking a cigarette, aren't we? They both are activities of the doer but I think the work they do on the mind is very different.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on June 01, 2012, 03:44:05 PM
humm.
But it was already said that intellectual preparation is not at all necessary.
so in what way does Ribhu Gita or Scriptures help ?

There was elaborate discussion on this in this very forum!
Further ... a person who is not realized should not say "I AM SELF"
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on June 01, 2012, 03:49:14 PM
Quote
There was elaborate discussion on this in this very forum!
Further ... a person who is not realized should not say "I AM SELF"

Yes, but why not to read that which the people who have realized the Self know? The reading creates even more enthusiasm to looking for the Self. See the difference?
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on June 01, 2012, 03:52:08 PM
oh!
so here is how we will read Ribhu Gita:

IT SAYS "Everything is Mithya"
and we read "( For a Realized Person ) Everything is Mithya (for me who am not realized, this world is real)"

again: "I AM SELF"
we read "RIBHU IS SELF"

?

Why read that ? instead, read the life of mira bai or Ramakrishna ...

I think Ribhu Gita is not the right book for unrealized people... it says only U R SELF, ALL THIS IS NOT THERE ... and we have to read that without "FEELING" it. Coz if we "FEEL" its ego ... i remember you say yesterday.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on June 01, 2012, 03:58:38 PM
We are not guilty that we don't feel we are pure consciousness. Are you feeling you are the Self reading Ribhu Gita?
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on June 01, 2012, 04:01:14 PM
:)

The problem is ...
If I feel , I am guilty coz only Ramana or Realized people should feel like that. AND WE ARE UNREALIZED PEOPLE
if i do not feel, i do not need to read it !!

Whats the purpose of reading that ?
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on June 01, 2012, 04:09:00 PM
Dear srkudai,

We read as Ramana said, because the guru has said: Read it.  It is nothing but guruvakya paripalanam and our bhava in
reading it that makes us progress. I have given what Sri Sankara said in another post.

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on June 01, 2012, 04:11:08 PM
yes ...
i think one should read Ribhu Gita with the attitude "Guru said, therefore i read" ... and avoid all association with meaning. u r so correct sir!

now i get it !!

But the problem is Guru did not tell me. he said to "Specific" people. u told me earlier.
i think for us... its a hinderance if we read ribhu.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on June 01, 2012, 04:12:15 PM
infact Ramana even told monkeys "you are Self"

he should have said "you are doers. but repeat u r self for now"
coz they were also not realized. i wonder why he told that.
oh we cannot understand Guru !!
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on June 01, 2012, 04:13:48 PM
Because you are that. And when you read it you need Faith. Every word gives impression in you. Do you remember what Anamalai Swami said: "Convince yourself: I am not this mind and one day you will experience this truth" (I don't remember the exact words, they were much more expressive). So if one is not prone to read Ribhu Gita or whatever book, that's ok. But my point is that reading them is not a waste of time. This is what I think, I don't try to convince you.

Yes, repeating "I am the Self", "I am not this mind" will not makes you the Self or 'non-mind'. The problem is when you are feeling you are the ego and you behave and preach to people like you have realized you are the Self and you know everything. For example I come to you and ask you for I advice and you tell me: "Stop with this nonsense. You are the Self. All these problems are illusion and cannot affects you. So go home and be happy". This advisor not just has not realized the Self but it can be even worse - he can deluded yourself to be Self-realized. I can tell you "I am the Self" but I always have in mind that I am in body consciousness.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on June 01, 2012, 04:17:36 PM
Dear Ramana,
    :)
What is this. Earlier u said that there cannot be a description for Self.
And that We should not have Bhavana ... "I AM SELF" it leads to ego.

To quote your own statement:

Quote
"Dear friends, I don't believe that statements like soham, sivoham, aham brahmasmi, tat tvam asi and so on are correct when we talk about the so called 'realization'. All these are just dual expression of the Truth. "I am He" - 2 persons, "I am Shiva" - 2 persons, "I am Brahman" - 2 persons, "You are That" - subject and an object. Everything is reflection of the ego"
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on June 01, 2012, 04:19:09 PM
Friends,
An excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
"One day as I was passing the Panchavati on my way to the pine-grove, I heard a bullfrog
croaking. I thought it must have been seized by a snake. After some time, as I was coming
back, I could still hear its terrified croaking. I looked to see what was the matter, and found
that a water-snake had seized it. The snake could neither swallow it nor give it up. So there
was no end to the frog's suffering. I thought that had it been seized by a cobra it would have
been silenced after three croaks at the most. As it was only a water-snake, both of them had
to go through this agony. A man's ego is destroyed after three croaks, as it were, if he gets
into the clutches of a real teacher. But if the teacher is an 'unripe' one, then both the teacher
and the disciple undergo endless suffering. The disciple cannot get rid either of his ego or
of the shackles of the world. If a disciple falls into the clutches of an incompetent teacher,
he doesn't attain liberation."

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on June 01, 2012, 04:22:35 PM
yes Raviji,
       super. do you think Raman is a very unripe guru ? coz we are still "egos" !!
not Self.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on June 01, 2012, 04:24:33 PM
Raviji already established Ribhu Gita is usesless by appreciating this wonderful statement by Anil ji!!

"WHY FORESTALL THE ENQUIRY BEFORHAND BY SUCH AFFIERMATION AS ‘I AMTHE SELF’, ETC, THEN?"

Ribhu Gita does not talk of inquiry.
it only goes on saying i am self, i am self!!! pathetic.
discard it.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on June 01, 2012, 04:26:15 PM
Quote
Dear Ramana,
    :)
What is this. Earlier u said that there cannot be a description for Self.
And that We should not have Bhavana ... "I AM SELF" it leads to ego.

Yes, Sri Udai. It cannot be described but the mind need some pointers to 'reach' it. All these words and Scriptures are like that.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on June 01, 2012, 04:28:04 PM
Quote
Ribhu Gita does not talk of inquiry.
it only goes on saying i am self, i am self!!! pathetic.
discard it.

I don't think that Lord Ramana's advices are pathetic, with all my respect to you, Sri Udai!
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on June 01, 2012, 04:31:10 PM
udai,
What do you think?
There is this important line:"A man's ego is destroyed after three croaks, as it were, if he gets
into the clutches
of a real teacher."
Namaskar
p.S:My laptop battery is running out.I will see your response later. :)
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on June 01, 2012, 04:59:21 PM
Friends,
         :) Ribhu Gita is one Example. Yoga Vasishta is another.

All I was trying to say ... "Not to Belittle Anyone",

You are Self means... its always available for one to own up.

If one does not do so... saying "I AM NOT THE SELF YET, I NEED TO REALIZE". one will never know.

Tell me ... How mind can ever overpower me or anyone ?

Being Self itself ... if i think i am puny, i remain puny. if i think i am Self , I remain Self.


मुक्ताभिमानी मुक्तो हि बद्धो बद्धाभिमान्यपि।
किवदन्तीह सत्येयं या मतिः सा गतिर्भवेत् ॥१-११॥



The Choice is ours.
Purely ours.

The difference between a nasta manasa and the one who has manas not yet totally dead is only this:
FIRST person does not need the aid of "Bhavana" [so he does not need Ribhu Gita]
SECOND person needs the aid of "bhavana"

thats all.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on June 01, 2012, 05:12:49 PM
Please friends ... Please read this a little openly and carefully:

Suppose i go out of my house ... i have decided a couple of days ago tht i will not eat sweets.
and then i see a sweet shop.

what makes me eat now ?

is the sweet forcing me ?

mind is forcing me ? Please .... please analyze and see for yourself.... is the mind forcing ?
the mind is simply suggesting "Lets Eat".
Suggestions of the mind are for the intellect. Intellect finally decides. Intellect finally "Says Yes!" and i eat.
so friends ... suggestions of the mind ... if they are not there ... i can never eat.

if suggestions are there ... they need not be treated as commands !!

no force on me.

if i decide ... i have decided.

now...
if i have decided i wont have any sensual involvements! just minimal.

what can make me involve ???

please see ...

mind can only suggest. only suggest. nothing more.
I need not accept. I meaning intellect ... relative sense of use.

i need not accept.

no one is forcing ...

Some mahatma said : World is like Rings with no hooks.
We have the hooks... we hold onto the world ... We are Free. No one forces us to hold onto the world.

Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on June 01, 2012, 05:16:54 PM
There is a story...
A student goes to a saint and says "Sir, this worldliness is not leaving me. Please help"

The Teacher says ... please come with me ... ill show ... and they follow... and very soon ... the teacher moves very fast and goes out of sight.

then from somewhere he shouts "Please help me ... please help me ... "
Student rushes in that direction to see the teacher holding fast onto a tree ...

Teacher says "This Tree is not leaving me ... please help me ... please"

and the student says "Sir how can you say the tree is not leaving you when its you who are holding onto it ??"

Teacher says "Thats exactly my point, tell me which part of the world is holding onto you ?"

Please see friends ... nothing in this world really "Holds" us. Riches do not force us to run after them, Women do not force us to woo them. The Gold necklace in shop does not Force itself on ME. The Position [in job] does not prompt me to "Seek" it. A wine bottle does not hold me by throat and force itself into my mouth!!

Friends ... We are Free. We take Free decisions. Do you see that ?
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on June 01, 2012, 05:25:58 PM
We do not like to take responsibility.
unfortunately.

We say, "I Still have ..."
Leave it.
Leave everything where it is.
Let them remain.

"I feel hurt now and then " !!!
who feels hurt friends ? The mind comes up and says "I am hurt"... let it mind its own business.
Why take that and put it on our own heads. "ok you are hurt. continue..." and leave it at its working.

I cannot make anyone read what I have just written. I cannot stop you from pasting 25 posts of different saints...
but pasting 25 posts of saints will not help me ...

Even if i see Ramana now ... it will not "Detach" me from "Mind" ... coz the picture is in mind and i am getting influenced by mind ! I have to see not "Ramana" of mind but the one who is the Seer of this Ramana ... which is the True Ramana. Whereby I stand separate from mind. Thats important.

IF Ramana were alive and you said "Sir which is real vision... to see you or to be the Seer who sees you" what do you think Ramana says ?

Thats why Swami Vivekananda said "Be Bold!" Sanyasin Bold, Say "OM TAT SAT" .
Say that! Dont be meek ... he constantly said.

and yet ... we say "i have lot of weaknesses ....."
who makes us weak ? Who forces us ?

Please read the above 3 posts for yourself. Feel and See. And you yourself can see it. Dont be biased ... who is sayign this, is this as per Ramana , Ramakrishna, Vivekananda etc. Just See Friends. IS it True or not. Verify.
There is no authority in this.
You are the Authority.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on June 01, 2012, 06:14:45 PM
Sri Udai. Do you remember the movie "The Sixth Sense". There Bruce Willis tried to cure a child which has visions (hallucination is Bruce's opinion) of ghost, talking with them and so on. At the end of the movie Bruce Willis suddenly realizes the most unexpected situation that he himself was ghost and the child has seen him because he has ability to see ghosts. Bruce had to go through all of his illusion until he realizes who he really was. So we accept that this world and everything is unreal (not what we think it is) but we don't realize it and are using some methods (which also are illusory) to realize who we really are! So by just repeating that we are the Self and everything other is unnecessary and illusionary will not resolve our problems. Words of the sort "You are the Self. Don't try to be It. So live your life" have done enough damage by so called neo-advaitins. We need to follow what our Gurus have instructed us to do. We are here just for clarification of their teachings. Nothing more.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on June 01, 2012, 06:18:36 PM
Ah!!!

Did you  read what I wrote Ramana ??

I urge you to read it once.
What am I trying to put forth ?
Please read and observe if its true or not.
Thats all I request.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on June 01, 2012, 06:19:04 PM
Quote
We do not like to take responsibility.
unfortunately.

This is a part of the Surrender. To do what we have to do and to leave the results and responsibility to God. So the problem is not that we don't like to take responsibility. We don't want to surrender. Unsurrendered mind cannot escape responsibility. It just projects it not to the spiritual sphere but to the world, the pleasures and so on.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on June 01, 2012, 06:21:31 PM
Quote
Did you  read what I wrote Ramana ??

I urge you to read it once.
What am I trying to put forth ?
Please read and observe if its true or not.
Thats all I request.

That was not a response to your last 3 posts!
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on June 01, 2012, 06:22:48 PM
No!
Sorry!!!
Surrender is not "NOT TAKING RESPONSIBILITY"

Surrender is leaving the "Results" of action to God.
Knowing tht God directs the results.
Surrender is NOT ... anything to do with responsibility ... this is a neo-advaita concept.

unfortunate!

How can a person who does not have control over his mind surrender Sir ?

uff!! Can I ask you .. .what books do you read ?
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on June 01, 2012, 06:29:22 PM
Here is my point:

responsibility - the state or fact of being responsible. So here is obvious we talk about person.

Quote
Question: What is unconditional surrender?

Sri Ramana Maharshi: If one surrenders oneself there will be no one to ask questions or to be thought of. Either the thoughts are eliminated by holding on to the root-thought ‘I’, or one surrenders oneself unconditionally to the highest power. These are the only two ways for realization.

If I am not giver of the fruits of actions how can I be responsible for anything?
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on June 01, 2012, 06:32:54 PM
U r responsible for your responses !!
Fruits of Action are obviously out of your hands!
no where are they in your hands.
but actions are in ur hands: Purushartha!

Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on June 01, 2012, 06:44:01 PM
Yes, I agree completely but this means doership. So it cannot be called Surrender. I don't try to discard what you have written. I am just trying to point the trap here. To feel responsible for something means to accept my individual existence (e.g. non-surrendering). But until we are in body consciousness and we are in the early stages of Saranagathi responsibility is of extreme importance. Was Bhagavan Ramana responsible for anything? My point is that in path of surrendering we must give up even the thought "I am responsible" and even "I am surrendering".

But yes, I agree that I am responsible only and only for my and only my actions, nothing more, nothing less.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on June 01, 2012, 06:48:33 PM
Dear Ramana,
        :)
Ramana was also responsible. if he took up cooking, he would do it well. he would not say "i dont hold this, i have surrendered".

If one leaves responsibility one becomes irresponsible ... not realized.
if one leaves "ego" one becomes like a dead log of wood. There is a psychological disease also called solipsism.you can refer to it.

Ego is used for transactional purposes. "Did you have food" ... Ramana said "Yes" ... so ... he has become ajnani right ?

Ego becomes transactional or functional . One recognizes one is not ego and ego is no more the "Real" entity. its like a mirage. Thats liberation.

ITs ok, another attempt to convey a point failed !! Results are never in our hands. This sharing truth is a horrible prarabdha karma.

Harih OM!
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on June 01, 2012, 07:03:15 PM
Do you realize what I am trying to convey? There is no problem in the word "responsible", not at all for me. It is one of my favorite and is one of the most important in my life. Christians, Muslims, Vaishnavas, Shaivas, Ganapatyas and so on have no problems with it. The problem arises when we talk about nonduality and nonpersonality. If there is no person then who is responsible and for what?

Quote
Ramana was also responsible. if he took up cooking, he would do it well. he would not say "i dont hold this, i have surrendered".

Ramana was responsible according to my and your mind but if you ask His if He had responsibility what would He answer you? :) I am not running from responsibility. I am just having trouble with Advaita interpretation of this matter. In the matter of fact I share your opinion, Sri Udai (about respinsibility and have declared it very clearly in the topic about destiny and free will).
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on June 01, 2012, 07:38:16 PM
Friends,
Till now it has been the mind all along-No sign of Self;
Or is it the Self Speaking with the mind silent! :)
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on June 01, 2012, 07:49:26 PM
Lets talk about
1. what vivekananda did during his last days.
2. what kind of bandage was done to Ramana during his last days.

then we will see Self.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on June 01, 2012, 07:56:33 PM
Dear Ramana, srkudai:

Arthur Osborne writes:  ...It is the fictitious person that is called the 'mind'. And this is same as the ego. When the Maharshi
or any other spiritual Master says that the mind of the Realized Person is dead, it does not mean that his mental faculty is
is in any way impaired. (Muruganar says here that dead mind is dead mind only but the mental faculties of the Realized Person
are guided by the Self within). If  He looks at a calendar he can tell the date like anyone else. It only means that the mental
faculty is no longer a 'mind' acting as ruler of the other faculties and indeed life itself, planning the future, regretting the past,
hoping, fearing and exulting.

The purpose of all spiritual teaching is to guide and encourage us to seek Liberation from the ego and Realization of the Self.
Both are the same. To say that there is no ego or that it is an illusion or that the Self is already realized, it is precisely from the
illusion of an ego fostered  by the service we render it in every selfish thought, word and deed that we have to seek Liberation.

It is no use saying that there is no not an ego and behaving as though there is, because actions speak louder than words. It is
living as though there were an ego that prevents us from realizing that there is not and attaining liberation from it.

One should remember even a life of disinterested activity is not normally enough to dissolve the ego sense. It usually needs to be
reinforced by a stronger and more forceful campaign. This can be either self surrender or self inquiry.

Once this is successful one can be in Realized State. In that state, all work including cooking, speaking, writing books, giving teachings
all would come about in total perfection. That State is Perfection and the activities are also Perfection. There could be debates how
can one egoless person can do such activities?  He does it in a Jivan Mukta state. If ego is not there, there is some one who is
doing within a Jivan Mukta all these in Perfection. You call it Suddha Manas, Pure Ego or the Self - it hardly matters.

As otherwise, one can never get beautiful teachings, poems, prakarana granthas from a Jivan Mukta. But we are having Sri
Sankara's works, Sri Buddha's works and Sri Bhagavan's works. All are written in their Jivan Mukta states. So we have to
beg the question: How can ego-less person do all these? The answer is again a round robin. The Suddha Manas, Pure Ego
or the Self within does all these works. The Self looks at the calendar and tells the correct date. The Self identifies between
Osborne and Narayana Iyer. The Self knows what is night and what is day. The Self knows the seasons. Rains, summer and winter.
The Self encourages Muruganar to write poetry. The Self shouts at the erring attendants and cooks.

Arunachala Siva.                           
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on June 01, 2012, 08:12:28 PM
Thank you, Sri Subramanian!
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on June 01, 2012, 08:14:04 PM
Udai,
Body is a corpse as you say!So I presume that it cannot speak.
If it is the mind that speaks,it is clear that we should then opt to be the Self.
If it is the self that speaks,it is clear that we need to do self-enquiry.
So wonder whether it is the Self or mind that speaks! :)
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on June 01, 2012, 09:07:47 PM
Subramanian/Ramana/Friends,
Good post by Subramanian.
Do we want the concept called Self-No!What we are after is Love and Fulfilment.So the Real question is not whether we are Self or mind.It is whether we are now fulfilled or not.
It is clear that one cannot imagine his way to fulfillment by saying 'I am fulfilled and saying this with a strong conviction'.If that were so,all the daydreamers would have been better off!Life is too complex to allow such a thing.
It is indeed true that fulfillment is the very core of our being and this definitely calls for Sadhana to discover and Live it fully.
Here are pearls of wisdom of The Sage of Kanchi that has been published in today's Newspaper,The Hindu:
1.Love and Respect,Humility and spiritual wisdom,alone will keep us in Good Stead.
2.Life sans Love towards fellow beings,birds and beasts is incomplete.
3.Realize that we cannot create even a bllade of Grass;offer the choicest of what one eats or wears first to the almighty.
4.Do good to others through social service.
5.The Rich should use their wealth to help the poor.
6.Akin to solvent Jnana is certain to dissolve sufferings.
7.Let us utilize our lives to contribute to the welfare of others.

Since we are Self,no need to strive to be Self.It is enough if we practice the above.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on June 01, 2012, 09:26:59 PM
Excellent post, Sri Ravi! Only talking about the Self is far from enough. The Life of Sages like Sri Ramana and Ramakrishna  and many others is example of that. They served everyone, even animals and plants. Their Life was full not only of beautiful teachings but of beautiful deeds also!

Glory to Ishvara!
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on June 01, 2012, 10:02:39 PM
Friends,
Here is a song of Saint Kabirdas:
"Moko Kahan Dhundhere Bande Mein ThO Tere Paas Mein
Na Teerath Mein, Na Moorat Mein Na Ekant Niwas Mein
Na Mandir Mein, Na Masjid Mein Na Kaabe Kailas Mein
Mein thO Tere Paas Mein Bande Mein thO Tere Paas Mein
Na Mein Jap Mein, Na Mein Tap Mein Na Mein Barat Upaas Mein
Na Mein Kiriya Karm Mein Rehta Nahin Jog Sanyas Mein
Nahin Pran Mein Nahin Pind Mein Na Brahmand Akas Mein
Na Mein Prakruti Prawar Gufa Mein Nahin SwasOn Ki SwAns Mein
Khoji Hoye Turat Mil Jaoon Ik Pal Ki Talaas Mein
Kahet Kabir Suno Bhai Sadho Mein thO Hun Viswas Mein.

Where do you search me? I am with you
Not in pilgrimage, nor in icons, Neither in solitudes
Not in temples, nor in mosques Neither in Kaba nor in Kailash
I am with you o man, I am with you
Not in prayers, nor in meditation, Neither in fasting
Not in yogic exercises, Neither in renunciation
Neither in the vital force nor in the body, Not even in the ethereal space
Neither in the womb of Nature, Not in the breath of the breath
Seek earnestly and discover, In but a moment of search
Says Kabir, Listen with care, Where your faith is, I am there!"

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: prasanth_ramana_maharshi on June 01, 2012, 11:13:30 PM
yes,but social service only should not be the ultimate goal.. if that is ultimate goal then we all should ideally follow mother theresa and join missinaries and not ramana.

Quote
Charity is great, but the moment you say it is all, you run the risk of running into materialism. It is not religion. street-cleaning, hospital-building, and all that? Good works, when you do them with a pure mind.
-- Swami Vivekananda THE PRACTICE OF RELIGION (Delivered at Alameda, California, on April 18, 1900) Volume 4, Lectures and Discourses

Quote
Question : But we see pain in the world. A man is hungry. It is a physical reality. It is very real to him. Are we to call it a dream and remain unmoved by his suffering?

Ramana Maharshi : From the point of view of jnana or Reality, the suffering you speak of is certainly a dream, as is the world of which that suffering is an infinitesimal part. In a dream you have when you are asleep you yourself feel hunger and see others also suffering from hunger.


Quote
Q: But how can I help another with his problem, his troubles?

A: What is this talk of another - there is only the one. Try to realize that there is no I, no you, no he, only the one Self which is all. If you believe in the problem of another, you are believing in something outside the Self. You will best help him by realising the oneness of everything rather than by outward activity.

Source: I Am That Book
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on June 02, 2012, 05:20:05 AM
Prashant,
There is no such thing like an 'ultimate Goal'.The Great one whose words I have quoted is kAnchi mahAswAmi-a Brahma jnAni.
I have found this 'bias' against social activities in many persons who claim to be followers of jnAna marga.They tend to identify social service with outer show.This is indeed unfortunate.
I will open a fresh thread and post his talks so that it will be clear how social service is an integral and vital aspect of sanatana Dharma.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on June 02, 2012, 06:19:06 AM
Friends,
(http://im.rediff.com/getahead/2009/sep/20krishna1.jpg)
An excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
"First of all set up God in the shrine of your heart, and then deliver lectures as much as you
like. How will the mere repetition of 'Brahman' profit you if you are not imbued with
discrimination and dispassion? It is the empty sound of a conch-shell.
"There lived in a village a young man named Padmalochan. People used to call him 'Podo',
for short. In this village there was a temple in a very dilapidated condition. It contained no
image of God. Aswattha and other plants sprang up on the ruins of its walls. Bats lived
inside, and the floor was covered with dust and the droppings of the bats. The people of the
village had stopped visiting the temple. One day after dusk the villagers heard the sound of
a conch-shell from the direction of the temple. They thought perhaps someone had installed
an image in the shrine and was performing the evening worship. One of them softly opened
the door and saw Padmalochan standing in a corner, blowing the conch. No image had been
set up. The temple hadn't been swept or washed. And filth and dirt lay everywhere. Then he
shouted to Podo:
You have set up no image here,
Within the shrine, O fool!
Blowing the conch, you simply make
Confusion worse confounded.
Day and night eleven bats
Scream there incessantly. …
Purification of mind
"There is no use in merely making a noise if you want to establish the Deity in the shrine of
your heart, if you want to realize God. First of all purify the mind. In the pure heart God
takes His seat
. One cannot bring the holy image into the temple if the droppings of bats are
all around. The eleven bats are our eleven organs: five of action, five of perception, and the
mind.
"First of all invoke the Deity, and then give lectures to your heart's content. First of all dive
deep. Plunge to the bottom and gather up the gems. Then you may do other things
. But
nobody wants to plunge. People are without spiritual discipline and prayer, without
renunciation and dispassion
. They learn a few words and immediately start to deliver
lectures
. It is difficult to teach others. Only if a man gets a command from God, after
realizing Him, is he entitled to teach
."

Namaskar.

Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on June 02, 2012, 11:57:55 AM
Dear Ravi,

In another post (again a reply to you), I have written about what Arthur Osborne calls as 'modern social service'. This is done
by many just to bloat their ego. Real service to fellow-human and other beings, is to help them to the extent that is possible
by one without any trace of ego i.e doership and pride. Right from Sri Bhagavan's times, sadhu bhiksha (which they call as
Narayana Seva or Mahadeva puja) means only feeding the poor treating them as Narayana or Mahadeva, was done earlier than
feeding the devotees. I have seen in the Asramam, inmates spreading the roasted bengal gram (pori kadalai) near the Pali
Tirtham which is food for both monkeys and peacocks. The gosala cows are fed with rich green fodder and other such stuff.

Paropakaram and jeeva kArunyam is helping others without sense of ego, to the extent possible. In fact the voluntary contribution
made after a stay in Asramam guest house by visitors is taken as for  Narayana Seva or Bhiksha.

Sri Bhagavan says in Who am I?

Whatever one gives to others, one is giving to oneself. If this is understood, who will not give to others?

Thanks once again for the nice post on Mahaswami.

Arunachala Siva.               
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on June 02, 2012, 12:57:02 PM
Dear Ravi,
        :)

Quote
Udai,
Body is a corpse as you say!So I presume that it cannot speak.
If it is the mind that speaks,it is clear that we should then opt to be the Self.
If it is the self that speaks,it is clear that we need to do self-enquiry.
So wonder whether it is the Self or mind that speaks!


Firstly ... what ever made you think so ... i NEVER said self inquiry is not necessary.
Secondly : What do you mean "opt to be the Self" ? Who opts ? if it is mind ... it cannot opt. Coz mind is changing. Self need not opt.
So what do you really mean ? Even if you say "Mind" merges in "Self" ... agian there is a problem. Is it like "Snake" merging in Rope or "Wave Merging in ocean ?" if it is like wave merging in ocean ... it means "Ocean" has a change in the form of a "Wave" ... which makes Self Changing .
If it is like a snake merging in Rope ... Is there a snake to merge ? is there a "Process" to it ?

Answer this second question if you please -- ITS OPEN TO ALL. Kindly do not spend the next 10 messages trying to "Establish" whether i am realized or not.
My realization is not for your verification.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on June 02, 2012, 01:50:32 PM
Udai,
"Kindly do not spend the next 10 messages trying to "Establish" whether i am realized or not."My realization is not for your verification.
Your Realization is your personal thing.I am not interested in whatever that be!How does it matter to me?
If you have any doubt we may discuss and if you do not have any doubt whatsoever,there is nothing to discuss.Hope this is clear.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on June 02, 2012, 02:30:01 PM
Dear Ravi, srkudai and others,

It is said by J.K. that one should abide in the true state of effortless, choiceless awareness and that effort only disturbs this.
But can one? About this also the Maharshi was quite definite. 'Effortless and choiceless awareness is our real nature. If we
can attain that state and abide in it, that is all right. But one cannot reach it without EFFORT of deliberate meditation. Al the age-
old vasanas (inherent tendencies) turn the mind outwards to external objects. All such THOUGHTS have to be given up and the
mind turned inwards and that, for most people, requires effort. Of course, every teacher and every book tells the aspirant to keep
quiet, but it is not easy to do so.

If anyone doubts this let him try for himself instead of weighing the statement of one teacher against that of another. Let him
sit down and maintain effortless, choiceless awareness of being without allowing any distracting thoughts to come and see
whether he can keep it up even for thirty minutes. If not let him not speak of stillness as an alternative to effort. Stillness is only
achieved through effort.

Another argument used is that one actually is the Self. Since there is no other, one must be. (This is the fallacious argument of
neo advaitins). So why strive to be the Self.  And they add, the Maharshi Himself said so. Certainly He did but He also exhorted
us to strive to realize this and not just UNDERSTAND IT THEORETICALLY. Partly perhaps to guard against the Scylla and Charybdis
on either side of the true path -- on the one hand that no effort is needed and on the other that a man by his own effort can create
or attain the true state -- he sometimes represented the effort required as a negative process. 'All you have to do is to dis-realize
unreality and Reality remains.' This is the traditional explanation given by the Sages. If the clouds are removed the clear sky remains.
If water lilies have overgrown a pond they only have to be removed for the water to appear. It does not have to be created.


Arunachala Siva.           
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on June 02, 2012, 02:41:35 PM
Subramanian,
"This is done by many just to bloat their ego".
I quite understand what you are saying.Yet,it also occurs to me-Is anyone better off if he/she avoids this?
I tend to think that at least if bloated,the ego will lend itself to be observed!One may then have an opportunity to deal with it.This is quite preferable than to let it masquerade as if it is absent under something pretentious!
In any case,the needy will have their needs met.
In Sri Ramanasramam we do have all these paroapakaram and jiva kArunyam activities fully in place-The Dispensary is there to treat the sick,poor feeding takes place,cows are taken good care of,Birds and animals move about freely,guests are wecome and their needs fully taken care of in terms of 3 days of Lodging and boarding-Sri Bhagavan is the epitome of these qualities and the momentum continues undiminished till date despite increasing demands on the limited resources.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on June 02, 2012, 03:05:39 PM
Quote fro Sri Subramanian Sir:
“It is said by J.K. that one should abide in the true state of effortless, choiceless awareness and that effort only disturbs this.
But can one? About this also the Maharshi was quite definite. 'Effortless and choiceless awareness is our real nature. If we
can attain that state and abide in it, that is all right. But one cannot reach it without EFFORT of deliberate meditation. Al the age-
old vasanas (inherent tendencies) turn the mind outwards to external objects. All such THOUGHTS have to be given up and the
mind turned inwards and that, for most people, requires effort. Of course, every teacher and every book tells the aspirant to keep
quiet, but it is not easy to do so.

If anyone doubts this let him try for himself instead of weighing the statement of one teacher against that of another. Let him
sit down and maintain effortless, choiceless awareness of being without allowing any distracting thoughts to come and see
whether he can keep it up even for thirty minutes. If not let him not speak of stillness as an alternative to effort. Stillness is only
achieved through effort.”


Dear Sri Subramanian Sir,
 
A very nice post. Effortless and Choiceless Awareness is our Real Nature. But at present I identify myself with my body and the ego. This is called ignorance. This ignorance must be removed by Grace and appropriate practice. It cannot be simply wished away. Effort is necessary. Sri Bhagwan says,”Effort is sine-qua-non.”

Thank you so much,sir.

Regards,
  Anil

Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on June 02, 2012, 03:41:45 PM
:) I never said effort is not needed either!
I have said Assert "U R SELF"
it does not in any way mean do not strive for it!!



Raviji,
   :) I did not ask a question... I have none.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on June 02, 2012, 07:07:10 PM
udai,
Good.Thanks very much.
Wish you the Very Best.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on June 02, 2012, 11:12:45 PM
Why do jnanis although have realized the Self continue to help other people, animals, plants? Why do they do that? They don't have desires anymore. Some of them continue worshiping God and so on. Why? What force Them to do it? Why They Who have accomplished everything in life continue doing that?
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on June 03, 2012, 07:00:58 AM
Dear ramana,

A Jivan Mukta cannot leave his body immediately upon self realization. They have to continue to live in the world. While living
in this world, it is the power within them that makes them do all good things They have no mind or ego to act upon. However
good things continue to be done with the direction of the Self within. They do not have any wealth. They themselves take bhiksha
from others. So whatever is possible to help other beings, they do. They are the Self and they find every living being as the Self.     
So they help other beings who/which are in need of help. Simple things like food, showing compassion for diseased animals/
human beings, grace to enable them to bear with sufferings and difficulties, are done by Jnanis.  They also compose teachings in
the form of poems to enable others to know the path and take up spiritual pursuit. Such poems contain karma, bhakti and jnana
methods to suit the individuals' needs.

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on June 03, 2012, 08:31:17 AM
Ramana,
God is Love and Love gives itself.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on June 03, 2012, 10:06:10 AM
God has already given himself ;) only if i expect him to come in a "Particular Form" I miss him and in case he comes also, its transitory ... being a form.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on June 03, 2012, 10:10:57 AM
Dear Raviji,
     :)

Yesterday I forgot to mention something ... Regarding
Quote
Body is a corpse as you say!So I presume that it cannot speak.
If it is the mind that speaks,it is clear that we should then opt to be the Self
;) Mind is also jada !! :D
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on June 03, 2012, 10:27:24 AM
udai,
Signboard says :"Mind at work " :)
Please do let me know when you(sorry not you!I mean the Body) come to Chennai.Or else do let me know where you(Sorry again!I mean your body ,alive or...) live and When I happen to visit that place,I would like to test if the body is a corpse as you claim.
I have a test for that-I will put a pinch of sugar or salt on your tongue.I will observe it after 5 minutes to see if it is intact.
If it is intact,I will accept that your body is indeed a corpse.Do not worry about spending money on cremation.We have an electric crematorium here (I am sure it will be available in other places as well!)and I will surely pay for it.
Forgot to mention this-You may choose whether you prefer sugar or salt.
Why waste time here with these discussions?I am sure when we give the schedule,others will also be too willing to come ,witness and be satisfied that both the both the body and mind are as insentient as a piece of Stone only.This would immediately make them realize that Self is the Only Reality. :)
Namaskar .
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on June 03, 2012, 10:36:11 AM
udai,
"God has already given himself ;) only if i expect him to come in a "Particular Form" I miss him and in case he comes also, its transitory ... being a form".
Signboard says:"Mind at work" :)
Love is God.(anBe sivam)
Mind says 'God is not form'! Or did it get confused because it was said that 'God is Love'?:)
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on June 03, 2012, 10:58:07 AM
:D you should have tried the same on Ramana and declared him as a "Liar" as well. He said body is jada in "SAT-DARSHANAM, 26". and if you put some sugar on his tongue ... i am sure it would melt ... otherwise he would not have eaten food :D .

Fortunately, Ramana is not alive today :D

I wont mind "if you come to chennai" ... Dont need to add Redundance by saying "Body comes ot Chennai" ... coz Self has no coming or going.
BTW ... you can even say "Mind says this" ... ;) that does not make mind "non-jada" .

you have imagined up some over "Exotic" image of a realized person ... This is the problem with people who read a lot  about saints. They make a picture of saint and anyone they meet they will compare with that picture. no one matches coz even the original does not match!!

As ... Ramana himself said "Deho na janati" ... and he himself said "my knees pain" ;) ...
the humanness does not contradict with "Deha being jada".
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on June 03, 2012, 11:08:54 AM
udai,
You now agree that the words mean something else in the scriptures than what it means in everyday world.
In effect they mislead .They mean nothing practically.Forget 'me'.Taste a little bit of the medicine that you prescribed! :)
The same is applicable to the posts as well.If we taste what we post,it will reach out to the readers.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on June 03, 2012, 11:10:27 AM
Sri Bhagavan said: Knees are paining. Or body is paining. He did not say: My knees are paining; My body is paining.

He treated the body as if it is shirt on the coat stand. If the shirt is torn, we all would say, My shirt is torn.  He would
say: Shirt is torn.

Because chit-jada granthi has been snapped when He was just 17. That is why He even forgot to write His name in the
parting note.

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on June 03, 2012, 11:15:30 AM
Dear Subramanian,
      :)
When he said "Knees are paining"... "was he talking about someone else's knees ?"
had he said "my" it hardly mattered. One should have the clarity not to confuse relative expression from a Absolute one.
Even if he did not say "my"... he did say "you" !! Or "he/she". all are just the same. where there is my, there is u, he etc.

BTW ... did you read Raviji's Experiment ? Put a pinch of sugar on the tongue of Ramana ... will it melt or not ?
chit-jada granthi has been snapped :D yet it would melt.

Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on June 03, 2012, 12:00:50 PM
Reposting here ...

Bhava shunya-sad bhava su sthitiH
bhaavanaabalaad bhaktir uttamam!!

By the Strength of thought [I AM HE] firm abidance in the Existence principle is gained
which is free from all thought modifications. This is supreme devotion.

---------> Upadesha Saram verse 9.

If one does not allow the thought "I AM SELF" , what kind of abidance is possible ? This was the sole argument in all previous posts of mine.
Most people rejected the "Bhavana" itself.

"I AM SELF" bhaavana is incomplete if one keeps projecting the errors of body-mind onto oneself and says i am still not complete etc.

The Bhavana is firm only when one says "I AM SELF", I need nothing. Firm.
Sadhana is to remain as Self everytime mind fools one to think one is mind/body.
when this is effortless one need not "Do" anything. One IS.
But even while holding the "Bhavana" ... one would not say "I AM DOING"... coz that means one is not holding the Bhavana
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on June 03, 2012, 12:14:57 PM
Reposting here ...

Bhava shunya-sad bhava su sthitiH
bhaavanaabalaad bhaktir uttamam!!

By the Strength of thought [I AM HE] firm abidance in the Existence principle is gained
which is free from all thought modifications. This is supreme devotion.

---------> Upadesha Saram verse 9.

If one does not allow the thought "I AM SELF" , what kind of abidance is possible ? This was the sole argument in all previous posts of mine.
Most people rejected the "Bhavana" itself.

"I AM SELF" bhaavana is incomplete if one keeps projecting the errors of body-mind onto oneself and says i am still not complete etc.

The Bhavana is firm only when one says "I AM SELF", I need nothing. Firm.
Sadhana is to remain as Self everytime mind fools one to think one is mind/body.
when this is effortless one need not "Do" anything. One IS.
But even while holding the "Bhavana" ... one would not say "I AM DOING"... coz that means one is not holding the Bhavana

Sri Udai. Let examine these two conditions. First imagine that for a second you have been in a thought-free state in absolute awareness. Then when your thoughts return and you say convinced "I am THAT! I am not this what I think I am now". Then this conviction "I am That" is very powerful because it is a kind of remembering this profound moment when you have experienced That. But what if you have never experienced this state and you always repeat "I am That". Is that of much help? You don't know what is that THAT. So what are you convincing yourself? You just repeat a word its pointer you have no idea what is. If we repeat "I am That" and we think "Oh, it is like dreamless sleep. This is THAT" we are wrong and our conviction is not very fruitful. If we repeat "I am That" and we consider That is the wakeful state then again our conviction is wrong. It is the same with dream state. Even when we say "I am That" by rejecting all that we think we are we again make empty conviction because we don't know what is that that is left. But I repeat - If we have even one moment of "sleepless sleep" and I am That conviction is pointer to That, making us remember It them "I am the Self" is one of the most helpful sadhanas we can do.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on June 03, 2012, 12:27:01 PM
Dear Ramana,
     :) Bhagavan did not say so much.
:)

He said through conviction "I AM SELF" one abides in it and sees Bhava-sunya stiti, or thoughtless state. :D and then mentioned this is Supreme Bhakti. Are you twisting what he said to suite your needs ?

According to Sankara ... there is no one who did not have a "First Basic" experience of Self. I can quote, but would like to leave it to you for inquiry.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on June 03, 2012, 12:33:38 PM
Dear Raviji,
    "Deho na jaanati" has no "Exotic" meaning as you imagine.
Body does not know is a simple and direct statement. and Ramana said it ... not me.

Why do you want to say "if body does not know ... sugar should not melt on tongue" ?

By your logic : u can say "Water also knows. Coz sugar melts in water"
or water knows coz water slips from higher mounds to lower ones.
the fan moves, does not mean fan "knows".

A good suggestion for you: study what upadi means.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on June 03, 2012, 12:38:22 PM
I am not twisting anything. I am just sharing opinion. For example when people say shivoham what do their mind mean? Do they imagine the pure consciousness or the image of Lord Shiva? The mind can accept and imagine only what is known to it. So saying "I am the Self" don't mean anything to it. You must have an experience of this Self, even a glimpse to convince and repeat shivoham or soham. The Self cannot be experience just by talking about It.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on June 03, 2012, 12:40:54 PM
Dear srkudai,

I stand corrected. Both are the same. In this context, Muruganar should also stand corrected. Because he said so first.

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on June 03, 2012, 12:45:24 PM
Dear Subramanian,
    :) What did murugnar say ?
Please paste that if you find time.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on June 03, 2012, 12:46:47 PM
So by what means can Self be Experienced Dear Ramana  ?
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on June 03, 2012, 12:46:57 PM
Dear srkudai,

I appreciate your curiosity. But I have to 30000 songs of Muruganar to search and find out.

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on June 03, 2012, 12:51:35 PM
Dear Subramanian,
       :) I asked coz what he said, may not be what we "understood".
As you may know it happens several times ... many people who went to Ramana
also returned with something other than what he said.

Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on June 03, 2012, 12:57:02 PM
So by what means can Self be Experienced Dear Ramana  ?

I mean mind's interpretation of the moment of being the Self. When the mind arises again it considers this being as its experience. Then in my opinion it is useful to reassure the mind that it is That 'experience'. Until then how could you direct the mind? It is like you say "I am a monkey" but you have never seen what monkey is.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on June 03, 2012, 01:10:18 PM
Dear Ramana,
       :) that is my question,
When do you think u will be able to "Feel" you are Self. ?
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on June 03, 2012, 01:11:45 PM
Quote
Dear Ramana,
       :) that is my question,
When do you think u will be able to "Feel" you are Self. ?

I don't know the answer of this question. Do you?
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on June 03, 2012, 01:13:05 PM
Dear srkudai,

Mind is inward turned and is made to search for the Goal. The Goal cannot be attained in one stroke permanently.
Sometimes one gets only the glimpse of the Goal. This glimpse itself encourages the mind to pursue. (See Devaraja
Mudaliar's experience once, when he attained indescribable bliss one day, when he was sitting in the Old Hall very
near to Sri Bhagavan and just Sri Bhagavan gazed at him. Mudaliar then said: Bhagavan! Is It That? Sri Bhagavan
replied smilingly: That is It.

But of course, this experience of glimpse should become permanent and this happens only when the mind merges into
the Self once and for all. Then there is only Self and no mind. This mano nasam.

The Experience of Self - how to explain? It is an experience that one should experience by himself. It cannot be described.
If it could be described then it is not an experience at all.

In this state, only indication is that such a person remains summa, totally in silence within - like a waveless ocean. Even if
he does work or engages in activity, he knows that it is like waves, foam etc., of an ocean and they are all from the ocean
only that is the Self.  That is why it is said that when a Jivan Mukta is engaged activities, it is the Power within which is doing
the activities since no activity is possible for that Jivan Mukta in the absence of ego/mind.

Arunachala Siva.     
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on June 03, 2012, 01:27:02 PM
Dear Subramanian,
          :)

Can you please explain this verse :

Bhava shunya-sad bhava su sthitiH
bhaavanaabalaad bhaktir uttamam!!

By the Strength of thought [I AM HE] firm abidance in the Existence principle is gained
which is free from all thought modifications. This is supreme devotion.

---------> Upadesha Saram verse 9.
Bhagavan Lists this as a Sadhana.

and also can you please confirm if Ramana ever said "Realize that body is jada" or simply gave an explanation "Body is jada coz it does not speak in deep sleep " ?
if it is the second, Bhagavan is just "Stating" that body is jada and did not put it as something to be "Realized"... its just to be understood as such. Whats your view.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on June 03, 2012, 01:36:07 PM
Subramanian sir's explanation ... verse 8, upadesha saram ... earlier :
Quote
Meditating on the Godhead, as I am He, is the best meditation,
since it does not seek separateness as Him outside you.  Keeping
Him outside your own Self is duality and is constrained by time
and space.  As Dr. Raju said, it is the mischief of the ego.  Bhagavan
Ramana uses the Sanskrit words, 'Anya bhava' and 'A-nanya bhava'
in the Tamil verse also.

Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on June 03, 2012, 01:40:06 PM
Dear Ramana,
      :) Ill put the question differently.
which is the reason for not being able to meditate using "I AM HE" ?
a) I dont know HE
b) I Dont Feel I AM HE
c) I think its too egoistic to say so. [which means Ramana's suggestion is bad]
and Ramana says this is better than having a separate god.

??
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on June 03, 2012, 01:47:38 PM
Udai,
Ofcourse sugar will dissolve in water.I hope you know or may be not,that a corpse will not have saliva to aid in dissolving the sugar.May be this is not there in  atma-bodha or upadesa sahasri,and it is only understandable that the truth of this is not known.
Do not worry,there is no possibility of your body being a corpse.That is why I made that offer.
You must have know the story of chaitanya,how when he took to sannyasa , he showed his fitness for it to his Guru by keeping sugar on his tongue for some time without its being dissolved.
I do not expect you to succeed in such an experiment,but atleast thought that it will help you to find out Truth for yourself-this is also 'self' Realization-to know where one is!If one understands this,there is a possibility to proceed from there.
Do not worry,there is no real danger from the crematorium end-your body is alive and kicking. :)
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on June 03, 2012, 01:53:41 PM
So if Chaitanya mahaprabhu
showed that sugar on his tongue did not melt...

u mean ... sugar never melted on his tongue or only when he demonstrated ?

 if he ate ... and has salaiva other times. .. it means he lost that state then ?

what exactly are you saying ? Chaitanya mahaprabhu had the realization at his disposal... but used to lose it every now and then or he never had saliva ?

Even to say "Deho na janati" ... to speak it out... :D by ur analysis ... when Ramana said it ... did he lose that ?

What u said is a siddhi not realization.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: sanjaya_ganesh on June 03, 2012, 01:57:56 PM
Ravi Ji

Did not expect this from you :). Without any "Self Realization", Mr. P C Sorcar can show far more than sugar not dissolving in mouth :). Are these "tests" for self realization. A "Jada Sharira" showing or not showing its own "attributes" (sugar dissolving etc) is no measure of anything - I am sure you know it. Not sure why you mentioned it  as a "test for self realization". Mere Sidhis... with no value to it...

-Sanjay
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on June 03, 2012, 01:58:48 PM
Dear Ramana,
      :) Ill put the question differently.
which is the reason for not being able to meditate using "I AM HE" ?
a) I dont know HE
b) I Dont Feel I AM HE
c) I think its too egoistic to say so. [which means Ramana's suggestion is bad]
and Ramana says this is better than having a separate god.

??

I don't think that soham meditation is not right. Just the opposite. But I am afraid that it is not for everyone. Let suppose that I teach some christians to meditate "I am Jesus". What do you think that they will understand and what conviction this will bring to them? I can tell you what I think:

1) I am all powerful
2) I can transform the water into wine
3) I can rise the dead
4) I can cure

May be you can do all this but "I am Jesus" has more more deeper meaning - "I am Christ consciousness". Even when you say them that they again will think "Yes, I am Christ consciousness that is all powerful, can transform the water into wine..." and so on. You must have idea, some kind of experience who is that HE, what is that Christ consciousness. Now do you realize where my inconvenience comes from? It is no that this conviction is not right but that it can be misinterpreted. To say soham shivoham you need at least very very clear intellectual understanding what Who is He and Who is Shiva. Agree?
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on June 03, 2012, 01:59:44 PM
udai,
""Deho na janati"
Looks like there is a paradigm shift here.We are not talking of the corpse anymore.
Is it the case of the corpse that got up half way in the mortuary van and reached home along with the erstwhile mourners! :)
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on June 03, 2012, 02:02:44 PM
:) u think.
in his entire lectures ...
Ramana never said "Deho na janati " is something to be realized.

he just said "deha does not know ... since in deep sleep we do not say we dont know"

simple explanation ... self sufficient in itself.


Coming to appropriateness...
Ramana says "I AM HE" is better tahn "Bhakti with Beda - bhavana" [verse 8 upadesha saram]... so why was he saying such a generic statement?
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on June 03, 2012, 02:07:55 PM
udai,
How is it that one gets up from sleep when one's name is called?How is it that one continues sleeping even during rain and thunder without being conscious of hearing those sounds?
How is this selective functioning possible?
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on June 03, 2012, 02:09:45 PM
sanjaya,
I will revert to you a little later.Please excuse me for now!
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on June 03, 2012, 02:16:17 PM
How is it that a fan rotates when switched on ? Therefore Fan is also "Alive" !
only when its disconnected from Electricity can we call it "Dead"

Harih om!
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on June 03, 2012, 02:21:09 PM
Dear Ravi,
    :) BTW, that question u should have asked Ramana not me.
its he who said in deep sleep body does not say i dont know ... and hence body does not know.

his argument ... not mine.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on June 03, 2012, 02:22:38 PM
udai,
I have asked you a simple ,direct question that is within the realm of everyone's experience.
You are deflecting it by asking the hackneyed ,cliched stock response of the learned ignorant pandits! 'A rotating fan,whether it has life'?
You should ask that fan,not me!
Answer if you know,my question without finding such hollow escape routes.
Namaskar.
P.S:If you think that I should have asked Ramana,why did you quote him and now are trying to wriggle out!Rank escapism this! :)
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on June 03, 2012, 02:27:16 PM
Dear Ravi,
     :) Its not escapism ...
Body - mind equipment functions in a certain way in the presence of Awareness.

The functionings of the body-mind are merely like a Fan that rotates upon switched on.
nothing more.


When we say "Deho na janati" ... all we are saying is ... The ability to "Know" is not a property of Deham. Coz Deham is only the 5 - element combination and nothing more.

IT seems to get this ability to "Know" in the presence of Awareness.

And here we are not speaking of any Siddhi like When i pinch you you should not feel etc.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on June 03, 2012, 02:34:16 PM
Its simply viveka.
To separate properties and observe things as they are.
if body's property was to "React" a dead corpse would also react.
the dead corpse is not able to react, coz its not body's property to react.

that property is apparently aquired due to the presence of Awareness.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on June 03, 2012, 02:41:44 PM
udai,
"The ability to "Know" is not a property of Deham. Coz Deham is only the 5 - element combination and nothing more"
This is another theory and is as fallible as any other theory.Just like Matter and energy are just different modes of the same substance,Body and mind are related.You can never say that 'This is body.This is where its  Boundary is.This is where the mind is and this is where it begins'.
It is only a matter of convenience to say 'the Body does not know'.
The Knowledge 'I am body' means the coexistence of the Body-mind complex and as long as there is identification with this body-mind complex,the simple awareness of the Self as "I' 'I' is not perceived.
This in no way brings any new angle to what we have been discussing all along.
What do you want to say anyway!Is it only some wisecrack stuff or missionary itch?Do bring some peanuts and we can at least have timepass :)
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on June 03, 2012, 02:46:43 PM
:)

"The Knowledge 'I am body' means the coexistence of the Body-mind complex and as long as there is identification with this body-mind complex,the simple awareness of the Self as "I' 'I' is not perceived."

How can Self be "Percieved", whether with body-mind or otherwise ? is Self an "Object"?
And as such Self is the basis for all perceptions ...
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on June 03, 2012, 02:55:12 PM
udai,
"is Self an "Object"
This does not get us anywhere,Right?
What do you mean by 'Basis'?All these descriptions are just mental concepts.When all concepts are dropped 'Atman is perceived by the atman'.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on June 03, 2012, 02:56:37 PM
Atman is Self Perceived...
For that why do you think all descriptions are to be dropped ?

What makes you suggest that ?
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on June 03, 2012, 02:58:54 PM
Ashtavakra gita : verse 15:

ayam eva hi te bandah... samadhim anutishtati ...
this alone is your bondage that you try to attain samadhi.
taht you try to "drop all concepts of mind"

Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on June 03, 2012, 03:10:33 PM
Dear srkudai,

I am posting here what Arthur Osborne wrote about Sri Bhagavan's final days:

Sri Bhagavan had long suffered from rheumatism and early in 1949, a small nodule appeared under the elbow of His left arm.
In February the Asramam doctor cut it out, though it was not looked upon as anything serious. Within a month it returned,
larger and more powerful, and this time it was recognized as a malignant cancer and there was alarm. Doctors came from
Madras to operate but the wound did not heal and the tumor very soon began to grow again larger and higher up.

Henceforth  there was an air of tragedy and inevitability about the march of events. The orthodox medical men let it be know that
they could not cure the tumor, but could only operate, that it might return from operation, despite radium treatment, and that if it did,
it would eventually prove fatal. Those of other schools believed that they could cure it and that operation would only bring it back
in a worse form, as in fact happened. During the following months there were two more operations, each with the same result.

And there was the deeper feeling of inevitability far beyond the medical; that Sri Bhagavan knew what was appropriate and pitied
us for having to witness His suffering and sought to give us strength to endure His body's death. Indeed, this long painful sickness
came to appear more and more as a means of preparing us for the inevitable parting which many felt they would be unable to endure;
more profoundly it came to appear as a PAYMENT OF THE KARMA HE HAD LIFTED FROM US AS HIS EXPIATION OF THE SINS OF THE
WORLD HE HAD TAKEN UPON HIMSELF. 

A devotee begged Him to give the sickness to her instead and He replied: AND WHO GAVE IT TO ME?  WE DID AS SURELY AS
THOUGH WE HAD CRUCIFIED HIM.

Already frail and weakened by rheumtism, Sri Bhagavan's body now grew steadily weaker. Already by September the end would have
surprised no body, least of all the doctors. By December it had come to be matter of waiting and counting the weeks and days.
By the beginning of 1950, the tumor had reached the shoulder and gone inwards. The doctors said that the PAIN MUST BE TERRIBLE,
but Sri Bhagavan gave no sign of it. He was smiling and gracious as usual. In fact, more than usual, for towards the end His face
became even softer and more gentle. Right up to the end His eyes shone with their old radiance and He insisted on giving darshan
to all who came. During the last days, when He was too weak to move, arrangements were made, morning and evening, for the
silent throng of worshippers to file past the open doorway where He lay. Only once the Asramam authorities fearing that it was too
strenous for Him cancelled the darshan. But He immediately protested and had it renewed and to the last day it continued.

Some have comforted themselves with the thought that the JNANI DOES NOT FEEL PAIN. BUT THOSE WHO WERE IN ATTENDANCE
ON SRI BHAGAVAN WERE CONVINCED OF THE REALITY OF THE SUFFERING. Indeed, He would sometimes admit: THERE IS PAIN,
THOUGH HE WOULD NEVER  SAY 'I HAVE PAIN". While wearing the body, He accepted the body's sensations although in constant
awareness of the Self. He felt heat and cold, distinguished sweet and salt, yellow  and red and with pain as with all other sensations.
ONLY HE NEVER FOR A MOMENT CONFUSED THE SUFFERING OF THE BODY WITH THE SELF. ..... He was a spectator for everything
that happened around Him.  ..... Many times devotees implored Him to desire to get well. Sri Bhagavan smiled and said: How can I
have such a thought?

Arunachala Siva. 

 
                     
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on June 03, 2012, 03:11:27 PM
udai,
Elementary Mr Watson!These concepts are projections of the mind based on its experience in the world -the sukha,Dukka and Bhaya.
All conceptions of the mind are related to what it already knows in terms of these experiences.As long as the mind stays invested in this,there is no possibility for anything utterly Fresh.No possibility of its giving way to something new to take place.
This is the significance between vrddha sishya and Gurur yuvAha in Dakshinamoorthy Stotram.
The Disciples are old with experiences and learnings-The Guru is youthful and ever new.
The seeker has to set aside all that he knows,and then there is a possibility of the Presence(Guru) to flower in him.
Sri Ramakrishna says so simply:
God's grace is the ultimate help
"You may try thousands of times, but nothing can be achieved without God's grace. One
cannot see God without His grace. Is it an easy thing to receive the grace of God? One must
altogether renounce egotism; one cannot see God as long as one feels, 'I am the doer.'
Suppose, in a family, a man has taken charge of the store-room; then if someone asks the
master, 'Sir, will you yourself kindly give me something from the store-room?', the master
says to him: 'There is already someone in the store-room. What can I do there?
'
"God doesn't easily appear in the heart of a man who feels himself to be his own master.
But God can be seen the moment His grace descends. He is the Sun of Knowledge. One
single ray of His has illumined the world with the light of knowledge. That is how we are
able to see one another and acquire varied knowledge. One can see God only if He turns
His light toward His own face
."

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on June 03, 2012, 03:17:00 PM
Dear Ravi,
   :) u have not realized and Ashtavakra gita says [verse 15] : your bondage is that you try to practise samadhi.

You should ideally take that!
what makes you disagree with it ? I mean whats ur authority for saying its required ?
;)
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on June 03, 2012, 03:32:00 PM
Udai,
The Reason is quite simple-One cannot will oneself into samadhi.
It just means that the 'Ego' cannot plot its ouster.Something else has to make it happen.
The 'Ego' can at the most offer itself in saranAgathi-The Divine has to take over and then samadhi results.
This is quite clear.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: srkudai on June 03, 2012, 03:33:27 PM
is that the meaning of that statement ? :D
LOL!

Anyways Raviji ... I leave this here.

Harih OM!
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on June 03, 2012, 03:44:10 PM
udai,
Whatever the Meaning of that statement-it is quite clear to me.
You asked for authority-authority depends on subjective opinion.What you deem as authority nay not be so to another and vice versa.
I can give clear instances from the lives and teachings of Sri Ramakrishna and Sri Bhagavan,but it may not be acceptable to others.
I have observed that Scripture driven swamijis carry this idea that samadhi is not needed for Self Knowledge.
The pure state of Samadhi is something beyond the reach of these.They reach a state of mental quiescence along the SANKYA lines and wrongly think that they have realized.They think that the 'Prakriti' as Prarabda will just expend itself and they need to do nothing about it.
This is Realization for them and it is now time to 'teach' others.
Anyway,that is that.
Wishing you the Very Best.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on June 03, 2012, 04:32:47 PM
Dear srkudai,

I am not able to bring in exact verse of Muruganar among his 30000 verses. However I have brought to you what Arthur
Osborne had written. It is a small book titled Maha Nirvana written by Arthur covering almost day to day or operation to
operation account of Sri Bhagavan's health and His state during that incurable illness.  Viswantha Swami has also written
a small account on Maha Nirvana days. I shall bring that also to you.

Viswantha Swami writes (abridged by me):

Throughout this long time of pain and sickness, Sri Bhagavan was quite unconcerned. He had no personal inclination for
any kind of treatment.  Whenever a course of treatment was decided upon by the Asramam He abided by it, rather to please
the devotees than to get cured. He has often said: It is for us to witness all that happens. And His behavior was a perfect
illustration of this. In December 1949, when the devotees were at a loss what treatment to try next, one of them approached
Sri Bhagavan and asked Him and He replied with a smile: 'Have  I ever asked for any treatment? It is you who want this and that
for me, so it is you who must decide. If I were asked I should always say, as I have said from the beginning, that no treatment
is necessary. Let things take their course.'

All the doctors who attended upon Him were struck by His superhuman indifference to PAIN AND HIS ABSOLUTE UNCONCERN EVEN
DURING AND AFTER OPERATIONS. He took  everything lightly and retained His sense of humor throughout. His casual remarks have
often made the doctors and attendants laugh despite their anxiety.

A few hours after operation of August, Sri Bhagavan decided to give darshan to the many devotees who were waiting anxiously
outside the Asramam dispensary, although He had been advised by doctors not to move out for some days.  He was as serene
as ever and even smiled from time to time. At noon next day, as soon as the doctors left, He returned to the Old Hall.

Doctors were amazed to see Sri Bhagavan even after the fourth surgery, that  He was having tranquil expression and gracious
smile. There was no sign of suffering in His face.

.....

When the devotees prayed to Him that He should Himself set to His health, right by His own potent will, He replied:
Everything will come right in due course. Who is there to will this? He could not will or desire anything, having lost the sense
of separate individuality in the Universal Consciousness.

.......

When one of His attendants entered His room, Sri Bhagavan greeted him with a smile and asked: 'Do you know what
Moksha is is?'  The attendant looked at Sri Bhagavan with a expected answer. He continued: Getting rid of non existent
misery and attaining Bliss which is the only Existence, that is the definition of Moksha.

Dr. T.N. KRISHNA SWAMI WRITES:

...One of the most simple, the most unassuming human form, lying helpless on a couch emanated such dynamic force as captivated
every heart that perceived it.  Here in flesh and blood is a Jivan Mukta, the embodiment of our scriptures in whose presence, the greatest
philosopher and the greatest scientist will shrink to a pygmy.

Arunachala Siva.               
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on June 03, 2012, 04:50:26 PM
Subramanian,
I hope udai reads your post.We know that Jivanmuktas are free from Body consciousness and there is the case of Sri Bhagavan burning his skin near the brazier and did not even notice it!
Sri Ramakrishna and sadasiva Brahmam did not even notice that the cloth they were wearing had fallen behind leaving them naked.sadasiva Brahmam just wandered naked.
This utter state is something that is unthinkable.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on June 03, 2012, 05:41:53 PM
Dear Ravi,

I am also of the feeling that my post being one of the last, i.e. just before srkudai's post showing his intention to withdraw,
might not have been read by srkudai, I am not sure.

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on June 03, 2012, 06:05:41 PM
I don't agree that soham or shivoham are useful for most devotees for a few reasons:

1. Such expressions just feed the ego of spiritually immature devotees who are thinking that they are God and can do whatever they want, that the Universe is theirs and so on
2. There is duality mixed with misunderstanding. Devotee doesn't know Who is This HE and Who exactly Shiva is. Without knowing that repeating soham or shivoham are not of much use. I don't mean that this does not bring benefits. But such mantras must be used under proper Guru guidance in my opinion because only authentic Guru can see if the devotee diverts from the Truth.

As Lord Ramana has said:


By whatever path you go, you will have to lose yourself in the One. Surrender is complete only when you reach the stage ‘Thou art all’ and ‘Thy will be done’.

The state is not different from Jnana (knowledge). In Soham (the affirmation of ‘I am He’) there is Dvaita (dualism). In surrender there is Advaita (non-dualism).



That's the reason why (in my opinion) He always adviced people to do Self-inquiry - to escape this Dvaita and empty formula (for a person who has never experienced a moment of pure consciousness). Surrender is enormously more helpful as Lord Ramana declared. Surrender kills the ego. The statements like soham and shivoham can have adverse effect.

Glory to Lord Ramana!
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on June 03, 2012, 06:12:03 PM
Dear Ramana,

Sri Sankara says I am chanting Sivoham, Sivoham - not because I have realized Sivam. It IS BECAUSE MY GURU TOLD ME
TO CHANT SIVOHAM, SIVOHAM..... Sri Bhagavan did not recommend this because -

a. People will keep on chanting it without bhava a mindless repetition of mere words.

b. People will say that Sivoham dhyanam, as if he is telling I am man, I am man.

Sivoham is quite powerful. But one should get proper guru for initiation. Secondly Sri Bhagavan did not recommend because in
His own experience He found Who am I? is a better path.

Sivam means Consciousness. It does not denote Siva or Narayana or Devi.

Arunachala Siva.       
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on June 03, 2012, 06:15:59 PM
That is exactly what I meant.

Quote
Sivam means Consciousness. It does not denote Siva or Narayana or Devi.

Yes. But you need someone to tell you that, to explain it to you. When you have no Guru to initiate you in this mantra, to explain you exactly what it means, there will be very little benefits I think.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on June 03, 2012, 06:19:33 PM
Dear Ramana,

This part of your statement, I agree. Sri Bhagavan did not recommend it. Sri Bhagavan is my only
Guru and so I did not also take it up. But His Arunachala Siva helps in equal effect.

Arunachala Siva.     
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: nonduel on June 03, 2012, 07:42:28 PM
Dear Ramana,

Sri Sankara says I am chanting Sivoham, Sivoham - not because I have realized Sivam. It IS BECAUSE MY GURU TOLD ME
TO CHANT SIVOHAM, SIVOHAM..... Sri Bhagavan did not recommend this because -

a. People will keep on chanting it without bhava a mindless repetition of mere words.

b. People will say that Sivoham dhyanam, as if he is telling I am man, I am man.

Sivoham is quite powerful. But one should get proper guru for initiation. Secondly Sri Bhagavan did not recommend because in
His own experience He found Who am I? is a better path.

Sivam means Consciousness. It does not denote Siva or Narayana or Devi.

Arunachala Siva.       

This is an important point. Bhava has to come first, the solid conviction that one ISN'T the body. Or that one is Consciousness. 

Then it is not a repetition, like one does not repeat I am a man. An acceptance!

Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on June 03, 2012, 09:39:15 PM
sanjaya,
"A "Jada Sharira" showing or not showing its own "attributes" (sugar dissolving etc) is no measure of anything - I am sure you know it. Not sure why you mentioned it  as a "test for self realization"
 :)
I have not said 'self-Realization' but 'self' Realization!This means to realize where one stands when one realizes one's mistake!
There is simply no point in saying 'Body is a corpse' and 'Mind is also Jada',etc.There is a vast difference between a paper tiger and a Real tiger.
What is implied is that it is on account of the Self that everything is alive.This is all to it.
Udai is needlessly confusing it with some experience of mental quiescence which makes him think that Body is a corpse.In a genuine experience the peace and light can penetrate every cell of the Body and the Body will be felt quite light and nimble.No way can it be equated to a corpse that it definitely is not ,scientifically or spiritually.
Coming to the sugar on the tongue-This is one sure way to prove how the Body consciousness is transcended.Great ones had this degree of  self control;this is not related to any siddhi.It does not mean that they could not or would not relish food!They can do that as well.
Unless this sort of a detachment is there,there is very little possibility to transcend Body consciousness essential for Nirvikalpa samAdhi.
More Later.

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: sanjaya_ganesh on June 03, 2012, 09:47:52 PM
Thanks, Ravi. I hear you - but I hate to generalize on anything as I have NOT experienced "IT" :) and wont accept or reject anything FULLY (other than the FULLY ACCEPTING what is told in "tripod" - Upanishads, Vedas and Brahma Sutra).

-Sanjay
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on June 03, 2012, 09:58:52 PM
sanjaya,
Very Good.This is indeed a Right attitude.
Wish you the Very Best.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on June 03, 2012, 10:13:54 PM
Sri Bhagavan has said:

Q: What is this awareness and how can one obtain and cultivate it?
A: You are awareness. Awareness is another name for you. Since you are awareness there is no need to attain or cultivate it. All that you have to do is to give up being aware of other things, that is of the not-Self. If one gives up being aware of them then pure awareness alone remains, and that is the Self.


But in deep sleep there is no awareness. When we are asleep it is like we don't exist. Only when we wake up we 'regain' our sense of existence. Sri Bhagavan has said: "You cannot deny your existence". Yes, when we are awake. But when we are asleep, unconscious and so on we don't know we exist, it is like annihilation. So how could awareness disappear in sleep and then reappear in wake? So if awareness is another name of me and you then we don't exist in sleep. So, you who are well-versed in Bhagavan works, please help me understand what He has meant by saying that.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: nonduel on June 04, 2012, 12:06:20 AM
sanjaya,
"A "Jada Sharira" showing or not showing its own "attributes" (sugar dissolving etc) is no measure of anything - I am sure you know it. Not sure why you mentioned it  as a "test for self realization"
 :)
I have not said 'self-Realization' but 'self' Realization!This means to realize where one stands when one realizes one's mistake!
There is simply no point in saying 'Body is a corpse' and 'Mind is also Jada',etc.There is a vast difference between a paper tiger and a Real tiger.
What is implied is that it is on account of the Self that everything is alive.This is all to it.
Udai is needlessly confusing it with some experience of mental quiescence which makes him think that Body is a corpse.In a genuine experience the peace and light can penetrate every cell of the Body and the Body will be felt quite light and nimble.No way can it be equated to a corpse that it definitely is not ,scientifically or spiritually.
Coming to the sugar on the tongue-This is one sure way to prove how the Body consciousness is transcended.Great ones had this degree of  self control;this is not related to any siddhi.It does not mean that they could not or would not relish food!They can do that as well.
Unless this sort of a detachment is there,there is very little possibility to transcend Body consciousness essential for Nirvikalpa samAdhi.
More Later.

Namaskar.

Raviji,

I think that Udai was saying what Ramana taught: "The body is inert, insentient. It does not say "I". None says in sleep I am not."  I believe this is in Forty verses

Thus a corpse is a very good comparaison.

Respectfully Raviji, I do not think Udai was "confused" in any way.

Every activities that one does is the result of having acted on a thought, and that is the mind and the ego. The "I" that is wrongly identified with the "I am the body" thought is just that...a thought. This is what makes one act and makes him believe that he is the do-er. All this is done by consciousness and "we" do not have any choice in changing anything, thus we are not that! We are witnessing all of this!

I believe that one has, at one point, to be convinced enough that one isn't the body. No matter if the "attachement" is still strong. Unless this is done, one is still under the "I am a body", the "I-Though" which is the illusion causing bondage.

The consequences are to study, to read the scriptures, to meditate, to do japas...to "do". The thoughts behind this are: I have to attain, to put effort, I am not worthy etc...etc. And one keeps being the do-er, believing that one has to "do" to Realise.

This is the biggest obstacle to Realisation, because one is still acting out on thoughts instead of Beingness.

From the booklet of Sri V. Ganesan "BE THE SELF", page 32:
Let us not only adore Him but adhere to His words of Wisdom. Listen to this quintessence of Wisdom so graciously uttered by Sri Bhagavan: "Your duty is to be; not to be this or that, simply BE. I AM THAT I AM sums up the whole Truth. The method to reach it is "BE STILL": Simple being is the Self.
The time to gain this wisdom is NOW and the place is HERE!"


It is my humble comprehension that Sri Udai was convaying exactely this...accepting to BE this (I AM THAT) Here and Now.

Does the experience, the "process" of realisation, or the non-experience of it, change anything to the Ultimate Truth that I AM THAT I AM?

Any arguments against this is from the mind, thus one is free to accept one or the other. Sri Annamalai Swamy said "You are NOT the mind" and one gets convinced of this the same way one is convinced that he is a man (I don't remember his exact words).

One thing that I am sure, is that as long as I strive to attain something...it is the proof that I strongly believe that I am a body! Can I also add, that I do not have faith in Bhagavan's words?

Namaskar!
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on June 04, 2012, 08:01:34 AM
nonduel,
I like the way you have expressed.I agree with what you are in essence trying to say.This essence is to say that Self is pure awareness and that mind and Body are so to say ,appear sentient on account of reflected consciousness.This is like the moon which gives its light reflecting the sunlight.That the Body does not say 'I' is very well known in waking state as well.It is the mind that says so.This is why we say when someone does not respond like this-'Physically present but mentally absent'.
Having said this,we need to realize that all these 'suggestions' are given in order to enable the mind to focus on the essence.Intrinsically these 'suggestions' have no absolute Truth.We very well know that there cannot be 'Body as a corpse' apart from the Self.
The simple thing however is that no degree of conviction is the same as Realization.It can only prepare for the clearance of the cobwebs.All Effort serves only this purpose.Even perception becomes an effort and effort cannot annul itself!Sri Bhagavan also makes this quite clear.Here The Beyond takes over.
This is why the Upanishads say :
1."This Atman cannot be attained by the study of the Vedas, or by intelligence, or by much hearing of sacred books. It is attained by him alone whom It chooses. To such a one Ataman reveals Its own form. [Katha Upanishad Ch-II -23-P-20]"

2.This Atman cannot be attained through study of the Vedas, nor through intelligence, nor through much learning. He who chooses Atman—by him alone is Atman attained. It is Atman that reveals to the seeker Its true nature. [ 3 –page-70 Mundaka Upanishad Upanishads by Nikilanada]

3.The Taittriya upanishad also clearly says 'yathO vachO nivartante;aprApya manasAsaha'-where mind and speech return (being) unable to comprehend.

The Upanishads as well as the Great ones are quite clear that Self is beyond the Reach of all thought and Effort.They are aware of the Catch 22 like paradigm.

All teachings end in advising earnest effort in whatever form depending on the approach,with utter humility(not the moralistic one!)and with an open ,receptive mind.
Truly the seeker or Devotee is not approaching Self or God as if it is a 'Goal' to be achieved or conquered.He is grateful that a life lived in consonance with this Great Truth is a life Fulfilled.As they say,the moment one starts climbing a mountain,one tends to feel the coolness and the higher one gets ,the more the coolness.
As Lord Jesus said-"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me"

Coming to the absence of Body Consciousness,I will give two examples from the Lives of Sri Bhagavan and sri Ramakrishna:
1.When Sri Bhagavan was a boy,he was strong and no other boy dared to physically confront him.The Aggrieved boys would wait for him to go to sleep and they would carry him to some spot and after administering a sound thrashing,they used to leave him back at his Place.(Very Considerate!-ravi).Sri Bhagavan used to realize what happened only the next day when he found how his dress was dishevelled,etc.This is the degree of his absence of Body consciousness 'Transcendence'.This is a precursor to what was to come later.

2.DOCTOR: "I have heard the story that you were once lying on the ground unconscious in
samadhi when a wicked man kicked you with his boots"
MASTER: "You must have heard it from M. The man was Chandra Haldar, a priest of the
Kali temple at KaliGhat; he often came to Mathur Babu's house. One day I was lying on the
ground in an ecstatic mood. The room was dark. Chandra Haldar thought I was feigning
that state in order to win Mathur's favour. He entered the room and kicked me several times
with his boots. It left black marks on my body. Everybody wanted to tell Mathur Babu
about it, but I forbade them."

Now we cannot go about claiming all this and project if it is our experience,especially If even a 'Word Beating' becomes intolerable and the 'corpse' starts reacting! :)

Namaskar.


Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: prasanth_ramana_maharshi on June 04, 2012, 12:41:10 PM
Sleepwalking, also known as somnambulism, is a sleep disorder. Sleepwalkers arise from the slow wave sleep stage in a state of low consciousness and perform activities that are usually performed during the day. These activities can be as benign as sitting up in bed, walking to the bathroom, and cleaning, or as hazardous as cooking..etc.

So is our aim is to suffer from this disease?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleepwalking (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleepwalking)
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on June 04, 2012, 12:59:38 PM
Friends,
An excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
The conversation turned to money.
MASTER (to Dr. Sarkar): "I don't think about it at all. You know that very well, don't you?
This is not a pretence."
Absent-mindedness of worldly people
DR. SARKAR: "Even I have no desire for money-not to speak of yourself! My cash-box
lies open."
MASTER: "Jadu Mallick, too, is absent-minded. When he takes his meals he sometimes
becomes so absent-minded that he doesn't know whether the food is good or bad. When
someone says to him, 'Don't eat that; it doesn't taste good', Jadu says: 'Eh? Is this food bad?
Why, that's so!'"
Was the Master hinting that there was an ocean of difference between absent-mindedness
due to the contemplation of God, and absent-mindedness due to preoccupation with worldly
thoughts
?

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on June 04, 2012, 01:06:57 PM
Friends,
An excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
MASTER (to Dr. Sarkar): "You said a very fine thing. No one else has said before that
samadhi is the result of the union of the mind with God. You alone have said that.
"Shivanath said that one lost one's head by too much thinking of God. In other words, one
becomes unconscious by meditating on the Universal Consciousness. Think of it!
Becoming unconscious by contemplating Him who is of the very nature of Consciousness,
and whose Consciousness endows the world with consciousness
!
"And what does your 'science' say? This combined with this produces that; that combined
with that produces this. One is more likely to lose consciousness by contemplating those
things-by handling material things too much."
DR. SARKAR: "One can see God in those things."
M: "If so, one sees God more clearly in man, and still better in a great soul. In a great soul
there is a greater manifestation of God."
DR. SARKAR: "Yes, in man, no doubt."
Losing consciousness in the thought of God
MASTER: "Losing consciousness by contemplating God-through whose Consciousness
even inert matter appears to be conscious, and hands, feet, and body move!
People say that
the body moves of itself; but they do not know that it is God who moves it. They say that
water scalds the hand. But water can by no means scald the hand; it is the heat in the water,
the fire in the water, that scalds.
"Rice is boiling in a pot. Potatoes and egg-plant are also jumping about in the pot. The
children say that the potatoes and egg-plant jump of themselves; they do not know that
there is fire underneath. Man says that the sense-organs do their work of themselves; but he
does not know that inside dwells He whose very nature is Consciousness
."
Dr. Sarkar stood up. He was about to take his leave. Sri Ramakrishna also stood up.

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on June 04, 2012, 01:47:35 PM
Friends,
Here is an English Translation of a Hymn  by Swami Vivekananda in Bengali:

THE HYMN OF SAMADHI(Rendered from Bengali)

Lo! The sun is not, nor the comely moon,
All light extinct; in the great void of space
Floats shadow-like the image-universe.

In the void of mind involute, there floats
The fleeting universe, rises and floats,
Sinks again, ceaseless, in the current "I".

Slowly, slowly, the shadow-multitude
Entered the primal womb, and flowed ceaseless,
The only current, the "I am", "I am".

Lo! 'Tis stopped, ev'n that current flows no more,
Void merged into void — beyond speech and mind!
Whose heart understands, he verily does.

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: nonduel on June 04, 2012, 04:19:05 PM
Dear Ravi,

"The simple thing however is that no degree of conviction is the same as Realization.It can only prepare for the clearance of the cobwebs.All Effort serves only this purpose.Even perception becomes an effort and effort cannot annul itself!Sri Bhagavan also makes this quite clear.Here The Beyond takes over.
This is why the Upanishads say :
1."This Atman cannot be attained by the study of the Vedas, or by intelligence, or by much hearing of sacred books. It is attained by him alone whom It chooses. To such a one Ataman reveals Its own form. [Katha Upanishad Ch-II -23-P-20]"


True! But it is a pre-requisite, it prepares. If not you are dwelling and strenghtening the "I am a body" belief. You believe that you have to "do" and that you are the "do-er". The essence of this is BE STILL!

It is attained by Him alone, but you have to be still. The more you are acting outwardly the less available you are. One can learn, study all the scriptures in the world, talk about the Truth, do all the practices...nothing will bring about the most favorable conditions than being still in the self (enquiry). It is not the outward actions that are important, it is the inner ones.

Jesus also said: "Be still and know I am God".


I am also leaving the forum, at least for a while like I have done in the past.

Namaskar to everyone!
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on June 04, 2012, 04:47:37 PM
nonduel,
I do not think that there is any difference at all between our points of view.I have also said the same.I have not emphasized the 'I am the Body' consciousness,but was simply emphasizing the magnitude of the issue at hand.
Sri Bhagavan has recommended two approaches:Self-enquiry and SaranAgathi.Both focus on realizing and not assuming  that the 'Ego' is a non-entity.All paths are variants of this theme only and whatever helps one may be taken up and adhered to.Each one knows best what appeals to him and whatever help and guidance he needs will be met by providence.
Wish you the Very Best.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on June 04, 2012, 05:28:13 PM
nonduel,
wonder whether this sentence of mine by way of a joke has in any way hurt you!
"Now we cannot go about claiming all this and project if it is our experience,especially If even a 'Word Beating' becomes intolerable and the 'corpse' starts reacting!"
That was just a reference to the Banter that I had with udai!Please do not take it seriously,although therein lies a Truth.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on June 04, 2012, 06:18:40 PM
Dear nonduel,

Yes. But the 'cobweb clearance' is the most difficult job for most of us. That is why, one has to approach a Sadguru, cry before,
wail before him and explain our pains and miseries.  The Guru does not say anything new. He simply says: Find out Who am I?
and inturn the mind. And this words of grace and His piercing Gaze go straight into the Heart and removes the ego from the
source.

Now for whom this guru's words would be effective? To the middlings only. The complete pakvi (mature) sadhaka need not
weep and wail before the guru. He has to simply listen to his words. The outright lokayuta (one who is in deeply drenched in
worldly activities) can gain no benefit from Guru. The middlings, who suffers in the world and who earnestly seek that he should
get out of this, will alone be helped. He will only cry before him: Please take me ashore. Please take me ashore!

Arunachala Siva.             
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on June 05, 2012, 07:37:06 AM
Friends,
Wish to share a couple of thoughts to ponder.
We often encounter the limitation of words,i.e example:Be Still.
Thought serves well in the everyday world-where its function is to gather facts,identify it with a name,analyse cause,Deduce ,predict outcome and store data for use.
When it comes to the spiritual domain,this functioning of thought itself becomes its waterloo.Somewhere here the utmost it can do is to 'suggest' .
The 'Suggestion' points to something where thought does not reach.If that be so,why employ 'words'?Why not non verbal suggestion?All arts like Dance,Sculpture and Music are there to fill in this Role and serve this purpose.
The worship of Idols ,the so called 'Dualistic' worship while serving that purpose as well ,can very well serve this main purpose.
This is what Sri Ramakrishna Says:
"As you recall your father by his photograph, so likewise the worship of the
image reveals in a flash the nature of Reality."

Lord Dakshinamoorthy's image with the Chin mudra and himself merged in the Being-is the nonverbal equivalent of 'summa iru','Just Be'.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on June 05, 2012, 07:52:34 AM
Friends,
In the following verse the Great Sage thAyumAnavar says:
கல்லாலின் நீழல்தனில் ஒருநால் வர்க்குங்
      கடவுள்நீ உணர்த்துவதுங் கைகாட் டென்றால்
சொல்லாலே சொலப்படுமோ சொல்லுந் தன்மை
      துரும்புபற்றிக் கடல்கடக்குந் துணிபே யன்றோ!

If under the shade of the wild banyan tree
Oh God, what Thou instructeth the peerless Four
Is but by the gesture of Thy hand,
Is it possible to utter then by words?
To do so
Would be like attempting to cross the  sea,
by holding on to a flimsy straw.

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on June 05, 2012, 10:22:54 AM
Dear Ravi,

Yes. Sri Dakshinamurti's form shows only a non verbal image. In fact Sri Dakshinamurti's form as described by Sri Sanakra has
not even got Chinmudra. After Verse 13, it is all extension by later poets.

The original text of Sri Sankara ends with:

Om Namah pranavArthAya suddha jnanaika murthyae |
Nirmalaya prasAnthaya Dakshinaurtaye Namah ||

(Source: Nochur's disocurses)

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on June 05, 2012, 11:16:16 AM
Subramanian,
The very first verse in dakshinamurthy sotram runs like this:
Mouna Vyakhya prakatitha, para,
Brahma thathwam yuvanam,
Varshishtha anthevasad rishiganai,
Ravrutham brahma nishtai,
Acharyendram kara kalihtha chin,
Mudram ananda roopam
,
Swathmaramam mudhitha vadanam,
Dakshinamurthim eede.

I praise and salute that Dakshinamrthy,
Who faces the south,
Who explains the true nature of the supreme Brahman,
Through his state of silence,
Who is young in looks,
Who is surrounded by disciples who are old Sages,
Whose minds are fixed on Brahman,
Who is the greatest of teachers,
Who shows the Chinmudhra by his hand,
Who is personification of happiness,
Who is in the state of extreme joy within himself,
And who has a smiling face.

This is a loose translation that I found in a site but it serves the purpose.I will post an interesting anecdote from the Life of Kanchi MahAswAmi regarding this.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on June 05, 2012, 02:31:27 PM
Dear Ravi,

I agree. But Nochur says that it is Dakshina-amoortham, the one without form, a spiritual North Pole, said to be looking at South.
He says therefore some of the verses are interpolations. In Tamizh classics there is a saying vadkakkiruthal.... i.e. one simply
looks at the North and works out his sadhana to attain jnana bodham. Kapilar and Baranar the two sages of South India were said to have followed this method of vadkkiruthal.  This is mentioned in Sangam Poetry.

Anyhow what you say is also correct.  Dakshinamurti is normally shown in stone images, with chinmudra with aged disciples and
He Himself being quite young, speechless and teaching in silence.

In 108 Names of Sri Bhagavan, Viswantha Swami says Om Sri Dakshinabhi mukAya Namah |

1. Here, Viswantha Swami gives both the meanings. Sri Bhagavan always used to sit (though not voluntarily) facing South
like Sri Dakshinamurti.

2. He further says, Dakshina mean right side and since He was already inturned, with look towards the Heart on the right side,
without chitta vrittis.
 
Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on June 05, 2012, 03:59:31 PM
Dear friends. Here I want to share a excerpt of Sri Sadhu Om's explanation of Self-inquiry. I hope it would be helpful to you.



On hearing the expression ‘Self-inquiry’, people generally take it to mean either inquiring into the Self or inquiring about the Self. How to do so? Who is to inquire into the Self, or who is to inquire about Self? What does inquiry actually mean?

Such questions naturally arise, do they not?

As soon as we hear the terms ‘Self-inquiry’, many of us naturally consider that there is some sort of effulgence or a formless power within our body and that we are going to find out what it is, where it is, and how it is.

This idea is not correct, because, Self does not exist as an object to be known by us who seek to know it! Since Self shines as the very nature of him who tries to know It, Self-inquiry does not mean inquiring into a second or third person object.

It is in order to make us understand this from the very beginning that Sri Ramana called Self-inquiry ‘Who am I?’, thus drawing our awareness directly to the first person.

In this question, ‘Who am I?’, ‘I am’ denotes the Self and ‘who’ stands for the inquiry.

Who is it that is to inquire into the Self? For whom is this inquiry necessary?

Is it for the Self? No.

Since the Self is the ever-attained, ever-pure, ever-free and ever-blissful Whole, It will not do any inquiry, nor does it need to!

All right, then it is only the ego that needs to do the inquiry.

Can this ego know Self?

As said in the previous chapters, this ego is a false appearance, having no existence of its own. It is a petty infinitesimal feeling of ‘I’, which subsides and loses its form in sleep.

So, can Self become an object that could be known by the ego?

No, the ego cannot know Self!

Thus, when it turns out that Self-inquiry is unnecessary for Self, and Self-Awareness is impossible for the ego, the questions arise: ‘What then is the practical method of doing Self-inquiry?’

Why is this term Self-inquiry found in the scriptures? Are we not to scrutinize thus and find out? Let us do so.

There is a difference between the way in which the term ‘inquiry’ is used by Sri Ramana and the way in which the scriptures use it. The scriptures advocate negating the five sheaths, namely the body, vital force (breath), mind, intellect and the darkness of ignorance, as ‘not I, not I’.

But who is to negate them, and how?

If the mind (or the intellect) is to negate them, it can at best negate only the insentient physical body and the breath, which are objects seen by it.

Beyond this, how can the mind negate itself, its own form?

And when it cannot even negate itself, how can it negate the other two sheaths, the intellect and the darkness of ignorance, which are beyond its range of perception?

During the time of inquiry, therefore, what more can the mind do to remain as the Self except to repeat mentally, ‘I am not this body, I am not this breath’? From this, it is clear that ‘inquiry’ is not a process of one thing inquiring about another thing.

That is why the inquiry ‘Who am I?’ taught by Sri Ramana should be taken to mean Self-awareness! (that is, attention merely to the first person, the feeling ‘I’).

The nature of the mind is to attend always to things other than itself, that is, to know only second and third persons. If the mind in this way attends to a thing, it means that it is attending (attaching itself) to that thing.

Attention itself is attachment!

Since the mind is to think about the body and breath – though with the intention of deciding ‘this is not I, this is not I’ – such attention is only a means of becoming attached to them and it cannot be a means of negating them!

This is what is experienced by any true aspirant in his practice.

Then what is the secret hidden in this?

Since, whether we know it or not, Self, which is now wrongly considered by us to be unknown, is verily our reality, the very nature of our (the Supreme Self’s) awareness itself is Grace.

This means that whatever thing we attend to, witness, observe or look at, that thing is nourished and will flourish, being blessed by Grace.

Though one now thinks that one is an individual soul, since one’s power of awareness is in fact nothing but a reflection of the ‘knowing-power’ of Self, that on which it falls or is fixed is nourished by Grace and flourishes more and more!

Hence, when the power of attention of the mind is directed more and more towards second and third person objects, both the strength to attend to those objects, and the ignorance of the knowledge of the five senses in the form of thoughts about them – will grow more and more, and will never subside!

Have we not already said that all our thoughts are nothing but attention paid to second and third person objects? Accordingly, the more we attend to the mind, the thoughts which are the forms (the second and third person objects) of the world, the more they will multiply and be nourished. This is indeed an obstacle.

The more our attention – the glance of Grace - falls on it, the more the mind’s wavering nature and its ascendancy will increase. That is why it is impossible for the mind to negate anything by thinking ‘I am not this, I am not this’.

On the other hand, if our awareness is directed only towards ourself, our knowledge of existence alone is nourished, and since the mind is not attended to, it is deprived of its strength, the support of our Grace.

‘Without use when left to stay, iron and mischief rust away’ – in accordance with this Tamil proverb, since they are not attended to, all the latent tendency-habit-predisposition seeds, whose nature is to rise stealthily and mischievously, have to stay quiet, and thus they dry up like seeds deprived of water and become too weak to sprout out into thought-plants.

Then, when the fire of Self-knowledge blazes forth, these tendencies, like well dried firewood, become a prey to it. This alone is how the total destruction of all tendencies-habits-predispositions, is effected.

If we are told, ‘Abandon the East’, the practical way of doing so would be to do as if told, ‘Go to the West’! In the same manner, when we are told, ‘Discard the five sheaths, which are not Self’, the practical way of discarding the non-Self is to focus our awareness on ourself, ‘What is this?’ or ‘Who am I?’.

Thinking ‘I am not this, not this’, is a negative method. Knowing that this negative method is just as impractical as saying ‘Drink the medicine without thinking of a monkey’, Sri Ramana has shown us the practical way of drinking the medicine without thinking of a monkey, by giving us the clue, ‘Drink the medicine without thinking of an elephant’, that is, He has replaced the ancient negative method by giving us the positive method ‘Who am I?’.

‘Verily the ego is all! Hence the inquiry ‘What is it?’
(In other words, ‘Who am I, this ego?’)
is the true giving up (renunciation) of all,
Thus should you know!’ - Forty Verses on Reality, verse 28

Verily, all (that is, the five sheaths and their projections – all these worlds) is the ego. So, attending to the feeling ‘I’, ‘What is it?’ or ‘Who is this I?’, alone is renouncing the five sheaths, discarding them, eliminating them, or negating them. Thus Sri Ramana has declared categorically that Self-awareness alone is the correct technique of eliminating the five sheaths!

Since this is so, with what purpose did the scriptures use the term ‘inquiry’ to denote the method not this, not this? By means of not this, not this, can we not formulate intellectually the test which we have given in paragraph 4 of this book, ‘A thing is surely not ‘I’ if it is possible for one to experience ‘I am’ even in the absence of that thing?

So long as there exists the wrong knowledge ‘I am the body’ pertaining to the aforesaid five sheaths or three bodies, will not one’s paying attention towards the first person automatically be only an attention towards a sheath or a body – a second person?

But if we use this test, can we not find out that all such attentions are not the proper first person attention? Therefore, it is necessary first of all to have an intellectual conviction that these are not ‘I’ in order to practice Self-awareness, without losing our bearings.

It is only the discrimination by which we acquire this conviction that has been termed ‘inquiry’ by the scriptures. What then is an aspirant to do after discriminating thus? How can the attention to these five sheaths, even with an intention to eliminate them, be an attention to Self?

Therefore, while practicing Self-inquiry, instead of taking any one of the five sheaths as the object of our attention, we should fix our attention only on the ‘I’-consciousness, which exists and shines as oneself, as the singular, and as a witness to and aloof from these sheaths.

Instead of being directed towards any second or third person, is not our power of attention, which was hitherto called mind or intellect, thus now directed only towards the first person?

Although we formally refer to it as ‘directed’, in truth it is not of the nature of a ‘doing’ in the form of directing or being directed; it is of the nature of ‘being’ or ‘existing’. Because the second and third persons (including thoughts) are alien or external to us, our attention paid to them was of the nature of a ‘doing’.

But this very attention, when fixed on the non-alien first person feeling, ‘I’, loses the nature of ‘paying’ and remains in the form of ‘being’, and therefore it is of the nature on non-doing or inaction. So long as our power of attention was dwelling upon second and third persons, it was called ‘the mind’ or ‘the intellect’, and its attending was called a doing or an action.

Only that which is done by the mind is an action. But on the other hand, as soon as the attention is fixed on the first person (or Self), it loses mean names such as mind, intellect or ego-sense. Moreover, that attention is no longer even an action, but inaction or the state of ‘being still’. Therefore, the mind, which attends to Self, is no more the mind; it is the consciousness aspect of Self!


Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on June 05, 2012, 04:00:42 PM

Likewise, so long as it attends to the second and third persons (the world), it is not the awareness aspect of Self; it is the mind, the reflected form of consciousness! Hence, since Self-attention is not a doing, it is not an action. That is, Self alone realizes Self; the ego does not!

The mind which has obtained a burning desire for Self-attention, which is self-inquiry, is said to be the fully mature one. Since it is not now inclined to attend to any second or third person, it can be said that it has reached the pinnacle of desirelessness. For, do not all sorts of desires and attachments pertain only to second and third persons?

Since the mind, which has very well understood that (as already seen in earlier chapters) the consciousness which shines as ‘I’ alone is the source of full and real happiness, now seeks Self because of its natural craving for happiness, this intense desire to attend to Self is indeed the highest form of devotion.

It is exactly this Self-attention of the mind, which is thus fully mature through such devotion and desirelessness that is to be called the inquiry ‘Who am I?’ taught by Sri Ramana!

Well, will not at least such a mature mind, which has come to the path of Sri Ramana, willingly agreeing to engage in Self-attention, realize Self?

No, no, it has started for its doom! Agreeing to commit suicide, it places its neck (through Self-attention) on the scaffold where it is to be sacrificed! How? Only so long as it was attending to second and third persons did it have the name ‘mind’. But as soon as Self-attention is begun, its name and form (the name as mind and its form as thoughts) are lost.

So we can no longer say that Self-attention or Self-inquiry is performed by the mind. Neither is it the mind that attends to Self, nor is the natural, spontaneous Self-attention of the consciousness aspect of Self, which is not the mind, an activity!

“A naked lie then it would be if any man were to say that he Realized the Self, diving within through proper inquiry set in. Not for knowing but for death the good-for-nothing ego’s worth! ‘Tis Arunachala alone, the Self, by which the Self is known!” --Sri Arunachala Venba, verse 39

The feeling ‘I am’ is the experience common to one and all. In this, ‘am’ is awareness. This awareness is not of anything external, it is the awareness of oneself. This is awareness. This awareness is ‘we’. “We are verily awareness”, says Sri Ramana in ‘The Essence of Instruction’ verse 23. This is our ‘being’ (that is, our true existence). This is called ‘that which is’.

Thus in ‘I am’, ‘I’ is existence and ‘am’ is awareness. When Self, our nature of existence-consciousness, instead of shinning only as the pure awareness ‘I am’, shines mixed with an adjunct as ‘I am a man, I am Rama, I am so-and-so, I am this or that’, then this mixed awareness is the ego.

This mixed awareness can rise only by catching hold of a name and form. When we feel ‘I am a man, I am Rama, I am sitting, I am lying’, is it not clear that we have mistaken the body for ‘we’, and that we have thus assumed its name and postures as ‘I am this and I am thus’? The feeling ‘this and thus’ which has now risen mixed with the pure awareness ‘I am’ is what is called thought. This is the first thought.

The feeling ‘I am a man, I am so-and-so’ is only a thought. But the awareness, ‘I am’ is not a thought; it is the very nature of our ‘being’.

The mixed awareness ‘I am this or that’ is a thought that rises from our ‘being’. It is only after the rising of this thought, the mixed awareness (the first person), that all other thoughts, which are the knowledge of second and third persons, rise into existence.

“Only if the first person exists, will the second and third person exist...” ‘Forty Verses’ verse 14.

This mixed awareness, the first person is called our ‘rising’ or the rising of the ego. This is the primal mentation! Hence:

“Thinking is a mentation; being is not a mentation!...” - ‘Eleven Verses on Self-inquiry’, verse 1 by Sri Sadhu Om.

The pure existence-awareness, ‘I am’ is not a thought; this awareness is our nature. ‘I am a man’ is not our pure awareness; it is only our thought! To understand thus the difference between our ‘being’ and our ‘rising’ (that is between existence and thought) first of all, is essential for aspirants who take to the inquiry ‘Who am I?’

Sri Ramana has advised that Self-inquiry can be done either in the form ‘Who am I?’ or in the form ‘Whence am I?’. Hearing these two interrogative sentences, many aspirants have held various opinions about them up till now and have become confused as to which of them is to be practiced and how!

Even among those who consider that both are one and the same, many have only a superficial understanding and have not scrutinized deeply how they are the same. Some who try to follow the former one, ‘Who am I’? simply begin either vocally or mentally the parrot-like repetition ‘Who am I?, Who am I?, as if it were chanting. This is utterly wrong!

Doing repetition of ‘Who am I?’ in this manner is just as bad as meditating upon or doing repetition of the Great Sayings such as ‘I am the Absolute’ and so on, thereby spoiling the very objective with which they were revealed!! Sri Ramana Himself has repeatedly said, “’Who am I?’ is not meant for repetition”!

Some others, thinking that they are following the second interrogative form, ‘Whence am I?’ try to concentrate on the right side of the chest (where they imagine something as the spiritual heart), expecting a reply such as ‘I am from here”! This is in no way better than the ancient method of meditating upon any one of the six yogic centers in the body!! For, is not thinking of any place in the body only a second person attention (an objective attention)?

Before we start to explain the technique of Self-inquiry, is it not of the utmost importance that all such misconceptions be removed? Let us see, therefore, how they may be removed.

In Sanskrit, the terms ‘atman’ (Self) and ‘aham’ both mean ‘I’. Hence ‘atma-vichara’ (Self-inquiry) means an attention seeking ‘Who is this I?’. It may rather be called ‘I-attention’, ‘Self-awareness’ or ‘Self-abidance’.

The awareness ‘I’ thus pointed out here is the first person feeling. But as we have already said, it is to be understood that the awareness mixed with adjuncts as ‘I am this’ or ‘I am that’ is the ego or the individual soul, whereas the unalloyed awareness, devoid of adjuncts and shining alone as ‘I-I’ (or ‘I am that I am’) is Self, the Absolute or God. Does it not amount to saying then that the first person awareness, ‘I’, can be either ego or Self?

Since all people generally take the ego-feeling (‘I am the body’) to be ‘I’, the ego is also given the name ‘self’ and is called ‘individual self’ by some scriptures even now.

It is only for this reason that even the attention to the ego, ‘What is it?’ or ‘Who is it?’, is also named by the scriptures as ‘Self-inquiry’. Is it not clear, however, that Self, the existence-awareness, neither needs to do any inquiry nor can be subjected to any inquiry? It is just in order to rectify this defect that Sri Ramana named it ‘Who am I?’ rather than using the ancient term ‘Self-inquiry’!

The ego, the feeling of ‘I’ generally taken by people to be the first person awareness, is not the real first person awareness; Self alone is the real first person awareness. The ego-feeling, which is merely a shadow of it, is a false first person awareness. When one inquires into this ego, what it is or who it is, it disappears because it is really non-existent, and the inquirer, having nothing more to do, is established in Self as Self.

Because it rises, springing up from Self, the false first person awareness mentioned above has to have a place and a time of rising. Therefore, the question ‘Whence am I?’ means only ‘Whence (from where) does the ego rise?’. A place of rising can only be for the ego. But for the Self, since It has no rising or setting, there can be no particular place or time.

“When scrutinized, we - the ever-known existing Thing – alone are; then where is time and where is space? If we are (mistaken to be) the body, we shall be involved in time and space; but are we the body? Since we are the One, now, then and ever, that One in space, here there and everywhere, we – the timeless and spaceless Self alone are!” – ‘Forty Verses’ verse 16 - thus says Sri Ramana.

Therefore, inquiring ‘Whence am I?’ is inquiring ‘Whence is the ego?’. Only to the rising of the ego, which is conditioned by time and space, will the question ‘Whence am I?’ be applicable.

The meaning, which Sri Ramana expects us to understand from the term ‘Whence’ or ‘From where?’ is ‘From what?’. When taken in this sense, instead of a place or time coming forth as a reply, Self-existence, ‘we’, the Thing, alone is experienced as the reply.

If, on the other hand, we anticipate a place as an answer to the question ‘Whence?’, a place, conditioned by time and space, will be experienced within the body ‘two digits to the right from the center of the chest’ (as said in ‘Forty Verses’ verse 18). Yet this experience is not the ultimate or absolute one. For, Sri Ramana has positively asserted that Heart is verily Self-awareness, which is timeless, spaceless, formless, and nameless.

“He who thinks that Self (or Heart) is within the insentient body, while in fact the body is in the Self, is like one who thinks that the screen, which supports the cinema picture, is contained within the picture!” –‘Five verses on the Self’, verse 3

Finding a place in the body as the rising-point of the ego in reply to the question ‘Whence?’ is not the objective of Sri Ramana’s teachings; nor is it the fruit to be gained by Self-inquiry. Sri Ramana has declared clearly the objective of His teachings and the fruit to be gained by seeking the rising-place of the ego as follows:

“When sought within ‘What is the place from which it rises as I?’, ‘I’ (the ego) will die! This is Self-inquiry.” – ‘The Essence of Instruction’, verse 19

Therefore, the result which is aimed at when seeking the rising-place of the ego, is the annihilation of that ego and not an experience of a place in the body.

It is only in reply to the immature people who – not able to have even an intellectual understanding about the nature of the Self, which shines alone as the one, non-dual Thing, unlimited by (indeed absolutely unconnected with) time and space, unlimited even in the form: ‘The Absolute is everywhere, the Absolute is at all times, the Absolute is everything’ always raises the question, ‘Where is the seat for the Self in the body?”, that the scriptures and sometimes even Sri Ramana had to say: “...two digits to the right (from the center of the chest) is the heart”. Hence this heart-place is not the ultimate or absolute Reality.

The reader may here refer to ‘Maharshi’s Gospel’, Book II, chapter IV, ‘The Heart is the Self’ (8th edition 1969, pages 68 to 72; 9th edition, 1979, pages 72 to 76).

Thus attending to oneself in the form ‘Whence am I?’ is inquiring into the ego, the ‘rising I’, but while inquiring ‘Who am I?, there are some aspirants who take the feeling ‘I’ to be their ‘being’ (existence) and not their ‘rising I’! If it is taken thus, that is attention to the Self.

It is just to understand clearly the difference between these two forms of inquiry that the difference between our ‘rising’ and our ‘being’ has been explained earlier in this chapter.

Just as the correct meaning of the term ‘meditation upon the Absolute Being’ used by the scriptures up till now is explained by Sri Ramana in the last two lines of the first benedictory verse of ‘Forty Verses’ to be ‘abiding in the Heart as it is’ (that is to say, abiding as the Self is the correct way of meditating upon it), so also, the correct meaning of the term ‘Self-inquiry’ is here rightly explained to be ‘turning Selfwards’ (or attending to Self).

In either of these two kinds of inquiry (‘Who am I? or ‘Whence am I?’), since the attention of the aspirant is focused only on himself, nothing other than Self, which is the true import of the word ‘I’, will be finally experienced.

Therefore, the ultimate result of both the inquiries, ‘Whence am I?’ and ‘Who am I?’, is the same! How? He who seeks ‘Whence am I?’ is following the ego, the form of which is ‘I am so-and-so’, and while doing so, the adjunct ‘so-and-so’, having no real existence, dies on the way, and thus he remains established in Self, the surviving ‘I am’.

On the other hand, he who seeks ‘Who am I?’ drowns effortlessly in his real natural ‘being’ (Self), which ever shines as ‘I am that I am.’

Therefore, whether done in the form ‘Whence am I?’, or ‘Who am I?’, what is absolutely essential is that Self-awareness should be pursued to the very end.

Moreover, it is not necessary for sincere aspirants even to name beforehand the feeling ‘I’ either as ego or as Self. For, are there two persons in the aspirant, the ego and Self?

This is said because, since every one of us has the experience ‘I am one only and not two’, we should not give room to an imaginary dual feeling – one ‘I’ seeking for another ‘I’ – by differentiating ego and Self as ‘lower self’ and ‘higher self’.

“...Are there two selves, one to be an object known by the other? For, the true experience of all is ‘I am one’” -- ‘Forty Verses’ verse 33 - asks Sri Ramana.

Thus it is sufficient if we cling to the feeling ‘I’ uninterruptedly till the very end. Such attention to the feeling ‘I’, the common daily experience of everyone, is what is meant by Self-awareness.

For those who accept as their basic knowledge the ‘I am the body’ – awareness, being unable to doubt its (the ego’s) existence, it is suitable to take to Self-awareness (that is, to do Self-inquiry) in the form ‘Whence am I?’. On the other hand, for those who, instead of assuming that they have an individuality such as ‘I am so-and-so’ or ‘I am this’, attend thus, ‘What is this feeling which shines as I am?’ it is suitable to be fixed in Self-awareness in the form ‘Who am I?’.

What is important to be sure of during practice is that our attention is turned only towards ‘I’, the first person singular feeling.”


Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: eranilkumarsinha on June 05, 2012, 06:50:07 PM
Quote from Sri Ravi”
“Friends,
Wish to share a couple of thoughts to ponder.
We often encounter the limitation of words,i.e example:Be Still.
Thought serves well in the everyday world-where its function is to gather facts,identify it with a name,analyse cause,Deduce ,predict outcome and store data for use.
When it comes to the spiritual domain,this functioning of thought itself becomes its waterloo.Somewhere here the utmost it can do is to 'suggest' .
The 'Suggestion' points to something where thought does not reach.If that be so,why employ 'words'?Why not non verbal suggestion?All arts like Dance,Sculpture and Music are there to fill in this Role and serve this purpose.
The worship of Idols ,the so called 'Dualistic' worship while serving that purpose as well ,can very well serve this main purpose.
This is what Sri Ramakrishna Says:
"As you recall your father by his photograph, so likewise the worship of the
image reveals in a flash the nature of Reality."
________________________________________
Lord Dakshinamoorthy's image with the Chin mudra and himself merged in the Being-is the nonverbal equivalent of 'summa iru','Just Be'.
Namaskar.”

Dear Sri Ravi,

Nature of Reality being the Supreme Silence, seeking to express It through words proves counterproductive. Sri Bhagwan taught that silence is the unceasing eloquence and that the oral exposition is not so eloquent as the silence. Ji. Yes. ‘Mouna vyakhyan prakatita tatvam.’ Truth can be expounded by silence alone.

Dear sir, I appreciate very much your beautiful insight that Adi Guru, Lord Sri Dakshianmurty’s Image with Chin Mudra, Himself merged in the Being, is the non-verbal equivalent of ‘Summa Iru’.

Thanks very much, sir.

Regards,
 Anil

Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: prasanth_ramana_maharshi on June 06, 2012, 01:06:04 AM
Dear ramana,

thanks for sharing sri sadhu om's self enquiry process.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on June 06, 2012, 06:42:40 AM
Ramana,
The Excerpts from Sadhu Om's Path of Ramana are quite useful for seekers to focus on the essentials of self-enquiry.The key tips are:
1.It is not necessary for sincere aspirants even to name beforehand the feeling ‘I’ either as ego or as Self. For, are there two persons in the aspirant, the ego and Self?
2.It is sufficient if we cling to the feeling ‘I’ uninterruptedly till the very end. Such attention to the feeling ‘I’, the common daily experience of everyone, is what is meant by Self-awareness.
3.This very attention, when fixed on the non-alien first person feeling, ‘I’, loses the nature of ‘paying’ and remains in the form of ‘being’, and therefore it is of the nature of non-doing or inaction. So long as our power of attention was dwelling upon second and third persons, it was called ‘the mind’ or ‘the intellect’, and its attending was called a doing or an action.

Thanks very much.
Namaskar.

Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on June 06, 2012, 06:48:03 AM
Anil,
"Nature of Reality being the Supreme Silence, seeking to express It through words proves counterproductive. Sri Bhagwan taught that silence is the unceasing eloquence and that the oral exposition is not so eloquent as the silence."
Yes ,I have posted the wonderful story of Sri Bhagavan expounding the significance of Dakshinamurthy sotram in utter silence,in the thread-'Our Bhagavan-Stories'.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on June 07, 2012, 07:30:10 AM
Friends,
An excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
"At dusk put aside all duties and pray to God. One is reminded of Him by darkness. At the
approach of darkness one thinks: 'I could see everything a moment ago. Who has brought
about this change?' The Mussalmans put aside all activities and say their prayers at the
appointed times."

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on June 07, 2012, 10:12:53 AM
Friends, a excerpt from Swami Vivekananda's Bhakti Yoga. Here he explains what bhakti is.



स तन्मयो ह्यमृत ईशसंस्थो ज्ञः सर्वगो भुवनस्यास्य गोप्ता।
य ईशेऽस्य जगतो नित्यमेव नान्यो हेतुर्विद्यत ईशनाय॥
यो ब्रह्माणं विदधाति पूर्व यो वै वेदांश्च प्रहिणोति तस्मै।
तं ह देवं आत्मबुध्दिप्रकाशं मुमुक्षुर्वै शरणमहं प्रपद्ये॥

"He is the Soul of the Universe; He is Immortal; His is the Rulership; He is the All-knowing, the All-pervading, the Protector of the Universe, the Eternal Ruler. None else is there efficient to govern the world eternally. He who at the beginning of creation projected Brahmâ (i.e. the universal consciousness), and who delivered the Vedas unto him — seeking liberation I go for refuge unto that effulgent One, whose light turns the understanding towards the Âtman."


Shvetâshvatara-Upanishad, VI. 17-18.


DEFINITION OF BHAKTI


Bhakti-Yoga is a real, genuine search after the Lord, a search beginning, continuing, and ending in love. One single moment of the madness of extreme love to God brings us eternal freedom. "Bhakti", says Nârada in his explanation of the Bhakti-aphorisms, "is intense love to God"; "When a man gets it, he loves all, hates none; he becomes satisfied for ever"; "This love cannot be reduced to any earthly benefit", because so long as worldly desires last, that kind of love does not come; "Bhakti is greater than karma, greater than Yoga, because these are intended for an object in view, while Bhakti is its own fruition, its own means and its own end."


Bhakti has been the one constant theme of our sages. Apart from the special writers on Bhakti, such as Shândilya or Narada, the great commentators on the Vyâsa-Sutras, evidently advocates of knowledge (Jnâna), have also something very suggestive to say about love. Even when the commentator is anxious to explain many, if not all, of the texts so as to make them import a sort of dry knowledge, the Sutras, in the chapter on worship especially, do not lend themselves to be easily manipulated in that fashion.


There is not really so much difference between knowledge (Jnana) and love (Bhakti) as people sometimes imagine. We shall see, as we go on, that in the end they converge and meet at the same point. So also is it with Râja-Yoga, which when pursued as a means to attain liberation, and not (as unfortunately it frequently becomes in the hands of charlatans and mystery-mongers) as an instrument to hoodwink the unwary, leads us also to the same goal.


The one great advantage of Bhakti is that it is the easiest and the most natural way to reach the great divine end in view; its great disadvantage is that in its lower forms it oftentimes degenerates into hideous fanaticism. The fanatical crew in Hinduism, or Mohammedanism, or Christianity, have always been almost exclusively recruited from these worshippers on the lower planes of Bhakti. That singleness of attachment (Nishthâ) to a loved object, without which no genuine love can grow, is very often also the cause of the denunciation of everything else. All the weak and undeveloped minds in every religion or country have only one way of loving their own ideal, i.e. by hating every other ideal. Herein is the explanation of why the same man who is so lovingly attached to his own ideal of God, so devoted to his own ideal of religion, becomes a howling fanatic as soon as he sees or hears anything of any other ideal. This kind of love is somewhat like the canine instinct of guarding the master's property from intrusion; only, the instinct of the dog is better than the reason of man, for the dog never mistakes its master for an enemy in whatever dress he may come before it. Again, the fanatic loses all power of judgment. Personal considerations are in his case of such absorbing interest that to him it is no question at all what a man says — whether it is right or wrong; but the one thing he is always particularly careful to know is who says it. The same man who is kind, good, honest, and loving to people of his own opinion, will not hesitate to do the vilest deeds when they are directed against persons beyond the pale of his own religious brotherhood.


But this danger exists only in that stage of Bhakti which is called the preparatory (Gauni). When Bhakti has become ripe and has passed into that form which is called the supreme (Parâ), no more is there any fear of these hideous manifestations of fanaticism; that soul which is overpowered by this higher form of Bhakti is too near the God of Love to become an instrument for the diffusion of hatred.


It is not given to all of us to be harmonious in the building up of our characters in this life: yet we know that that character is of the noblest type in which all these three — knowledge and love and Yoga — are harmoniously fused. Three things are necessary for a bird to fly — the two wings and the tail as a rudder for steering. Jnana (Knowledge) is the one wing, Bhakti (Love) is the other, and Yoga is the tail that keeps up the balance. For those who cannot pursue all these three forms of worship together in harmony and take up, therefore, Bhakti alone as their way, it is necessary always to remember that forms and ceremonials, though absolutely necessary for the progressive soul, have no other value than taking us on to that state in which we feel the most intense love to God.


There is a little difference in opinion between the teachers of knowledge and those of love, though both admit the power of Bhakti. The Jnanis hold Bhakti to be an instrument of liberation, the Bhaktas look upon it both as the instrument and the thing to be attained. To my mind this is a distinction without much difference. In fact, Bhakti, when used as an instrument, really means a lower form of worship, and the higher form becomes inseparable from the lower form of realisation at a later stage. Each seems to lay a great stress upon his own peculiar method of worship, forgetting that with perfect love true knowledge is bound to come even unsought, and that from perfect knowledge true love is inseparable.


Bearing this in mind let us try to understand what the great Vedantic commentators have to say on the subject. In explaining the Sutra Âvrittirasakridupadeshât [1], Bhagavân Shankara says, "Thus people say, 'He is devoted to the king, he is devoted to the Guru'; they say this of him who follows his Guru, and does so, having that following as the one end in view. Similarly they say, 'The loving wife meditates on her loving husband'; here also a kind of eager and continuous remembrance is meant." This is devotion according to Shankara.


"Meditation again is a constant remembrance (of the thing meditated upon) flowing like an unbroken stream of oil poured out from one vessel to another. When this kind of remembering has been attained (in relation to God) all bandages break. Thus it is spoken of in the scriptures regarding constant remembering as a means to liberation. This remembering again is of the same form as seeing, because it is of the same meaning as in the passage, 'When He who is far and near is seen, the bonds of the heart are broken, all doubts vanish, and all effects of work disappear' He who is near can be seen, but he who is far can only be remembered. Nevertheless the scripture says that he have to see Him who is near as well as Him who, is far, thereby indicating to us that the above kind of remembering is as good as seeing. This remembrance when exalted assumes the same form as seeing. . . . Worship is constant remembering as may be seen from the essential texts of scriptures. Knowing, which is the same as repeated worship, has been described as constant remembering. . . . Thus the memory, which has attained to the height of what is as good as direct perception, is spoken of in the Shruti as a means of liberation. 'This Atman is not to be reached through various sciences, nor by intellect, nor by much study of the Vedas. Whomsoever this Atman desires, by him is the Atman attained, unto him this Atman discovers Himself.' Here, after saying that mere hearing, thinking and meditating are not the means of attaining this Atman, it is said, 'Whom this Atman desires, by him the Atman is attained.' The extremely beloved is desired; by whomsoever this Atman is extremely beloved, he becomes the most beloved of the Atman. So that this beloved may attain the Atman, the Lord Himself helps. For it has been said by the Lord: 'Those who are constantly attached to Me and worship Me with love — I give that direction to their will by which they come to Me.' Therefore it is said that, to whomsoever this remembering, which is of the same form as direct perception, is very dear, because it is dear to the Object of such memory perception, he is desired by the Supreme Atman, by him the Supreme Atman is attained. This constant remembrance is denoted by the word Bhakti." So says Bhagavân Râmânuja in his commentary on the Sutra Athâto Brahma-jijnâsâ [2].


In commenting on the Sutra of Patanjali, Ishvara pranidhânâdvâ, i.e. "Or by the worship of the Supreme Lord" — Bhoja says, "Pranidhâna is that sort of Bhakti in which, without seeking results, such as sense-enjoyments etc., all works are dedicated to that Teacher of teachers." Bhagavan Vyâsa also, when commenting on the same, defines Pranidhana as "the form of Bhakti by which the mercy of the Supreme Lord comes to the Yogi, and blesses him by granting him his desires". According to Shândilya, "Bhakti is intense love to God." The best definition is, however, that given by the king of Bhaktas, Prahlâda:
या प्रीतिरविवेकानां विषयेष्वनपायिनी।त्वामनुस्मरतः सा मे हृदयान्मापसर्पतु॥

"That deathless love which the ignorant have for the fleeting objects of the senses — as I keep meditating on Thee — may not that love slip away from my heart!" Love! For whom? For the Supreme Lord Ishvara. Love for any other being, however great cannot be Bhakti; for, as Ramanuja says in his Shri Bhâshya, quoting an ancient Âchârya, i.e. a great teacher:

आब्रह्मस्तम्बपर्यन्ताः जगदन्तर्व्यवस्थिताः। प्राणिनः कर्मजनितसंसारवशवर्तिनः॥यतस्ततो न ते ध्याने ध्यानिनामुपकारकाः। अविद्यान्तर्गतास्सर्वे ते हि संसारगोचराः॥

"From Brahmâ to a clump of grass, all things that live in the world are slaves of birth and death caused by Karma; therefore they cannot be helpful as objects of meditation, because they are all in ignorance and subject to change." In commenting on the word Anurakti used by Shandilya, the commentator Svapneshvara says that it means Anu, after, and Rakti, attachment; i.e. the attachment which comes after the knowledge of the nature and glory of God; else a blind attachment to any one, e.g. to wife or children, would be Bhakti. We plainly see, therefore, that Bhakti is a series or succession of mental efforts at religious realisation beginning with ordinary worship and ending in a supreme intensity of love for Ishvara.



Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on June 07, 2012, 11:05:22 AM
Dear Ramana,

Nice write up as to how love towards kith and kin progresses towards love and devotion to God.

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on June 07, 2012, 12:49:36 PM
Yes. But we must inquire more deeply what Sri Vivekananda has meant by saying that love for the wife or children is not bhakti. It is not bhakti mainly because we think of them and consider them as different from the Self (God). One who sees God in his wife or children or animal or even a stone does bhakti when he surrenders and serves that 'object'. It is the same with Guru. Guru is the Lord for His bhaktas first because He is realized and second, even more important, because the devotees see God in their Guru.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on June 07, 2012, 01:23:51 PM
Dear Ramana,

Yes. Love towards kith and kin is only love and not equivalent to devotion (bhakti) to God or guru. Even to Guru, the relationship\
is dual, till one attains realization and experiences that Guru and he are the One Self.

In a similar vein Upanishads also say: He loves wife and children not for their sake but for the Self within.

On realization, every thing in the world is Brahma Swarupam. That is why Sri Bhagavan never accepted that others are
Ajnanis. He found them all as the Self and hence no ignorant people at all. He describes this in Verse 5 of Sri Arunachala
Pancharatnam.

Arunachala Siva.   
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on June 07, 2012, 01:38:43 PM
Yes, Sri Subramanian. My point was that it is not wrong to have devotion to your family members, sacred places, temples or even particular God's sculpture. Hindus, Christian, Muslims, almost all religions do it. The problem arises when you consider the 'object' of your devotions as something different than God Himself. The limit of devotion to particular object is because this creates limited attitude to what God really is. If you have the knowledge and conviction that, for example, Arunachala is God Himself and you are devoted to It then this is right bhakti. But if you consider Arunachala as some place with good energy which bring you peace because of the good vibration of Its rocks, this in my opinion is wrong bhakti if it can be called bhakti at all.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on June 07, 2012, 02:16:31 PM
Dear Ramana,

Yes. all love towards the worldly beings and objects are dual. But with one difference. When devotion to God is initially dual,
at the time of final surrender, when the ego also is submitted, then it becomes non dual. Because there is only God and not
me.

Sri Bhagavan describes this in Verse 48 of Sri AAMM:

To you as to my only god I came, O Arunachala and me you have totally destroyed.

Bhakti begins ad dvaita with my going to God. It ends as advaita jnana, the ending of the separate ego and survival of the Sole
Reality, God.

But the love for kith and kin remains only as love and not as devotion or surrender.

Arunachala Siva. 
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on June 07, 2012, 04:49:37 PM
subramanian/Ramana/friends,
"But the love for kith and kin remains only as love and not as devotion or surrender."
What is Love?How is Love for kith and kin different than Love for God?How can there be love for God that one does not know?
What is Devotion and surrender to this God and how is this different than Love?

I have asked some fundamental questions to help put our perspective in place.
Thanks very much.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on June 07, 2012, 05:13:46 PM
subramanian/Ramana/friends,
"But the love for kith and kin remains only as love and not as devotion or surrender."
What is Love?How is Love for kith and kin different than Love for God?How can there be love for God that one does not know?
What is Devotion and surrender to this God and how is this different than Love?

I have asked some fundamental questions to help put our perspective in place.
Thanks very much.
Namaskar.

Dear, Sri Ravi. Very important question you asked! For me there is two kinds of Love - conditional and unconditional. The unconditional Love is called bhakti. Buddha's Love and compassion and serving to the people was also bhakti, no matter that He didn't talk about God, devotional practices and so on. What Buddha has done was Supreme Bhakti, Supreme Love and He had Supreme Knowledge. On the other hand many people talk about bhakti and God but what they do is preaching and defending their own believes and satisfying their own desires justifying them as God's will or that they do God's Will written by their Holy Books. They do what they do but there is no sign of Love and serving and helping others. Doing good to people and loving them cannot be compared to any spiritual practice. And this is my assurance from my experience. Actually doing good to every living creature by all your heart and loving them is the fruit of all spiritual practices. You cannot love and serve by your own will. It is Self's greatest gift. The Love is the Self Itself.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on June 07, 2012, 05:27:25 PM
Dear Ravi,

I am of the view that most of the inter-human love is mutual, excepting a mother's love for her child or a guru's love for his
devotee. But 'devotion' means that there is a Higher Power, God. Though Jnana Sambandha used the word Kadhal which means
only love, 'kAdhalAhi kachinthu kaNNer malhi...'

However the word devotion or bhakti is used when we show such feelings to a Higher Power. It is not mutual in the sense though
God is an embodiment of compassion, His return - by way of grace comes after a long time, because devotion to God should
be continuous, like a thyla dharai... a flow of oil.  This devotion, at some stage, becomes surrender when the bhakta comes
to realize that everything is God's will and there is nothing like my will. Here the ego is submitted to God and Grace flows
more and more. Once the annihilation or submission of ego to God is complete, then there is Oneness.

One Nayanmar when he found his wife breathing out air to drive out the spider that was on Lingam, shouted against her saying,
that her saliva must have fallen on the Lingam. He even wanted to get separated from her. But he did not understand that his
devotion to Siva is equal if not more, than the devotion of his wife towards saving Lingam from spider sting.

In Tamizh bhakti literature - Kadhal, Love and patthi - devotion are used interchangeably in many places.

Andal says in Tiruppavai: uRRame Avom umakme nAm atcheivom.... We shall only be related to you, we shall do service only
to You. maRRai nam kAmangaL mARRelor embAvai... Please remove all our love towards any thing (worldy) other than to you..

Arunachala Siva.             
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on June 07, 2012, 05:31:01 PM

In military parlance, we say that the army of country A has surrendered to the army of country B. What does it mean?
The army of country A has understood that army of country B is a Higher Power. Devotion and surrender come when
one is loving a Higher Power. It may be out of fear (bhaya bhakti) or in sublime mental state (para bhakti). The love
in the world does not happen out of fear or in sublime mental state, where one surrenders to other. Mostly it is mutual.

Arunachala Siva. 
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on June 07, 2012, 06:20:28 PM
Ramana/Subramanian/friends
Wonderful response from Ramana.Subramanian has expressed regarding what is deemed as Human Love.
I wish to explore Love-What does Love Mean to us?Be it conditional or otherwise.Let us begin at a Human level ,as everyone is quite familiar with this.
Let me set the ball rolling:
1.In love,there is acceptance of who we are and as we are.There is no pretension.There is this space for us to be what we are.
2.In Love there is this sense of Fulfillment and a sense of fullness.We give ourselves unstintingly.
3.In Love,we become protective of the ones we Love.
4.In Love ,we do not feel hurt.
5.In Love we do not mind suffering.
...
...
...
I wish to hear from you.

Namaskar.

Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on June 07, 2012, 06:44:59 PM
Love is another Name for God. Love is the Supreme God. Love is like the pure light. Pure light contains all colors possible in itself. So the Love is the Supreme containing everything in It. It is complete fullness. Conditional love is incomplete fullness of ourselves but it is much better than loving and serving our desires only. Para Bhakti, Atma-jnanam, Brahma-jnanam and the Supreme Love are synonymous. We think that Supreme Love cannot be compared to Atma-jnanam imagining that there is duality in it and so on but this is completely wrong! Supreme Love, called also unconditional Love, is possible only by and is Itself Self-realization. Supreme Love means that for you everything is the Self which is Love Itself. Supreme Love is the Supreme Happiness. There is no higher happiness than Supreme Love.

But in Love there is duality non-dualists say. Has any non-dualist ever been in this State? Love is above duality and non-duality but our spiritual growth and understanding is too small to grasp it. Love is Sat-Chit-Ananda. In Supreme Love there is no separation and division. To say don't love so much your family, direct this love to the Lord is nonsense. Who the Lord is? Some beard man in the Sky? Where the Lord is? Sitting at some Mountain Peak? The Lord is called the Lord of Love and He lives in the secret cave of the Heart of every creature and in every atom in all the Universe. Until we don't find the Lord of Love is all thing we do not know the Lord at all. And if we are not searching Him in everything around us, serving and helping every creature we can then we are just serving our ego.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on June 07, 2012, 07:41:33 PM
Dear Ravi,

I agree. Love does not know anything other than Love. However in human conditions, loving others does not get the same
response sometimes.  We get a feeling of being ignored.  That is why there are always good mothers but sometimes bad
mothers. One New Wave poet sang: He called his Annai Illam (Mother's House) but his mother is in old age home.

Whereas love for God, which I call devotion, never goes a waste. It may not become fruits immediately. May be due to
our inadequate show of bhakti. But surely god gives recompense at the end. There could be sufferings in between, no doubt.
But the end result is the flowing of God's Grace.

Saint Ramalinga Swami sings: If a father beats an erring son, a mother would embrace the son. If a mother beats the son
the father would come and embrace the son. Here for me, You are the Mother-Father!  O the Beggar with holy ashes all over the body, do not beat me. Please embrace.

Love towards God is always on a higher plane, is it not?  Because He is a Higher Power.

But if a yogi or a Jnani loves - he loves people in the world, animals and God in equal level, because He sees the Self within
everybody.  That is why Sri Bhagavan said: If one gives to others, he is giving to himself. If one knows this truth, who will
not but give?

Arunachala Siva.     
   
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on June 07, 2012, 07:45:46 PM
Ramana/Subramanian/Friends,
6.In Love we are happy when the ones we love are happy and sad when they are sad.
7.We share their happiness and sorrow.
8.We are strict when the loved ones do not do the right things and appreciate when they do the Right things.We in turn do not mind being scolded likewise.
9.We like to show this Love in various ways.

In general these are the ways we as humans understand Love.

I wish to hear from you to add to this list.we can then proceed to explore how we come to adore the Mother as God,Father as God and Guru as God as the Vedas Rightly say.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on June 07, 2012, 08:11:29 PM
Ramana/Subramanian/Friends,
6.In Love we are happy when the ones we love are happy and sad when they are sad.
7.We share their happiness and sorrow.
8.We are strict when the loved ones do not do the right things and appreciate when they do the Right things.We in turn do not mind being scolded likewise.
9.We like to show this Love in various ways.

In general these are the ways we as humans understand Love.

I wish to hear from you to add to this list.we can then proceed to explore how we come to adore the Mother as God,Father as God and Guru as God as the Vedas Rightly say.
Namaskar.

This, Sri Ravi is conditional love. This love is the first step. In this step you love your mother because she is your mother. You love your father because he is your father and so on. Then this love expand to your relatives, then to your neighbors and so on, meaning you love is growing and growing. This growing signify that your consciousness is more and more close to the Self (God). This love destroys the ignorance and this love makes you realize that everything is One, everything is the Self. Sri Subramanian said that the love for the Lord is Supreme. But the point is to realize that everyone is God. So to say 'I don't want to devote to my wife because no matter how good she is she is merely a human' is ignorance. Lord Jesus has said it very clearly:



"I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for Me."



In another place He has said:




36 "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?"
37 Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind'."
38 This is the first and greatest commandment.
39 And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself (your Self (God)).'
40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."




and again in the Bible it is stated:



"...whoever lives in Love lives in God and God lives in him."



So to love God and to love your neighbors (meaning all others) is not different.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on June 07, 2012, 08:14:08 PM
subramanian,
"Love towards God is always on a higher plane, is it not?  Because He is a Higher Power."

How is love related to power,leave alone Higher power?
Do we mean to say that we love the  powerful than the weak?

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on June 07, 2012, 08:19:16 PM
subramanian,
"Love towards God is always on a higher plane, is it not?  Because He is a Higher Power."

How is love related to power,leave alone Higher power?
Do we mean to say that we love the  powerful than the weak?

Namaskar.

And more profoundly - how can I love God Who I cannot see, hear and know if I cannot love the people that I see, hear and know? Love itself is God, not the higher or the lesser power. These powers belongs to the Lord of Love. Shiva is the Self which is everything. Power is the Maya which is His consort.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on June 07, 2012, 08:27:51 PM
Ramana/Subramanian/Friends,
"In this step you love your mother because she is your mother. You love your father because he is your father and so on. Then this love expand to your relatives, then to your neighbors and so on, meaning you love is growing and growing. This growing signify that your consciousness is more and more close to the Self (God)"

Thanks very much.Ramana,you have beautifully extrapolated how we expand ourselves through Love.We will go into it a little more slowly.Whatever we have discussed till now,we have not assumed any conditioning.
We will next explore what is attachment and how this brings in conditioning.
Love is something that everyone has experienced.What is it that limits this Love?

Namaskar.


Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on June 07, 2012, 08:32:21 PM
Dear Ravi,

I did not mean in that sense. The Higher Power, I meant is to denote that He is the creator of all living and non living objects,
including those whom we love and those whom we do not love.  He is prepared to shower grace once we are ready.

Sri Bhagavan says: Kinder far from you, O Arunachala, than one's own natural mother. Such is your abundant
grace. (AAMM 6)

God is the embodiment of love, only we should become the fit receptacle to receive his Grace, which is nothing but love.

Sri Sankara also says: God is equal to more than Sahasra Veda Mathas. 

Again Sri Bhagavan says in Pancharatnam, Verse 5:

He who, with Heart to you surrendered,
Beholds you for ever alone,
Sees all things in you
And loves and serves them as none other
Than the Self, O Aruna Hill,
Triumphs because he is immersed
In you whose being is pure bliss.

I can love my Mother but I cannot love someone else's mother, as I do my mother.
But god is Mother of all. One cannot but love Him if he comes to  knows God's Grace, with proper
understanding of godliness.

Arunachala Siva. 
 
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on June 07, 2012, 08:43:16 PM
subramanian/Friends,
"I can love my Mother but I cannot love someone else's mother, as I do my mother.
But god is Mother of all."

I will again question this in order to bring forth from you a clearer answer.This will benefit us and I am pretty sure you know it and it is on account of just a lack of Expression only.
Does 'Mother of all' really matter to us?We may have two brothers and two sisters and does this in any way alter whether our Mother is dearer to us on that score?will it be any less if we happen to be the only child?

"I can love my Mother but I cannot love someone else's mother, as I do my mother."
Where does the problem lie?How this problem gets solved by 'God is mother of all'?

Namaskar.

Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on June 07, 2012, 08:44:10 PM
Dear Subramanian, what you are talking about is just our mental attitude. Some consider Arunachala mountains as this Higher Power, other consider Shiva sitting in the Mountain Kailash, third see Bhagavan Ramana as this Power, others Lord Krishna. Sometimes people even consider some non Self-realized people as this Higher Power and it is said that you can attain Atma-jnana even if you follow wrong Guru if you have intense faith in him. So the point is who you consider as this Higher Power. The attitude of the jnani and bhaktas is that this Higher Power is within every atom of this creation. This higher power is everything. The point is how to break the chains of the ignorance that makes us think others as non-jnanis (non-Gods).
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on June 07, 2012, 08:48:22 PM
Ramana,
When I asked whether Love is related to power,I mean whether we will love someone like Hitler more than our mother?Definitely Hitler is more powerful!
Is Love related to Power or Love is when Power is not taken into consideration?

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on June 07, 2012, 08:58:57 PM
Ramana,
When I asked whether Love is related to power,I mean whether we will love someone like Hitler more than our mother?Definitely Hitler is more powerful!
Is Love related to Power or Love is when Power is not taken into consideration?

Namaskar.

Love has nothing to do with any power. If it has then it is not love but desire. Love does not want anything in return or as condition. That's why the love for our parents is something more close to the pure love but is much mixed with desire. This is why it is called conditional love. There is about 2 billions christians who always say that they love Jesus. I don't believe them. They are pretending imagining that saying that Jesus will grant them with some boon or will send them to heaven at the Judgement Day. I hope you got what I meant.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on June 07, 2012, 09:04:07 PM
Ramana,
wonderful Response!Yes,Love does not depend on numbers and it cannot be multiplied or Divided.
Love cares a straw for power or lack of it.
Thanks very much.

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on June 07, 2012, 09:08:51 PM
Ramana/Friends,
Shall we explore how Desire in the form of Likes and Dislike leads to attachment and how does this limit Love?
I wish to hear from you.

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on June 07, 2012, 09:24:12 PM
Actually Love is everything that is. It is like a ocean. Desires and dislikes creates the ego. Ego limits itself to particular portion of the ocean. Sometimes it is depicted as a wave in the ocean. Desires and dislikes are those who make us the wave. If we have no desires or dislikes the wave is just a wave, a part of me. Do you remember what Lord Krishna says in Bhagavad Gita:"All this universe is pervaded by Me in My invisible form; all things exist in Me, but I do not exist in them. Nor are all things in Me; behold this My divine mystery: Myself causing things to exist and supporting them all but dwelling not in them." See this example. If you have a toothache you concentrate on the tooth who aches you and forgot that you have legs, eyes, ears, the whole body. For you now only the this tooth exists. It is the same with the example with the ocean. Until we don't stop consider yourselves as a particular wave and concentrate on it we cannot 'feel' we are the ocean. Even desires and dislikes are not the problem but our attachment or identification with them. Then it may be more accurate to tell that attachment is the core problem. That's why Sri Sankara always reminds us to be in constant viveka. Who am I? is just a method like that. To realize that we are not these desires and dislikes. Bhakti has the same purpose - to leave the impression that what we see and feel are what we are but that we are the Lord of Love dwelling in you Heart.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on June 07, 2012, 09:31:03 PM
Ramana/Friends,
I wish to keep it at a human level as yet.
Sadguru Master TGN says simply without getting into technicalities:Pain and Pleasure affect the Body,Happiness and sorrow afflict the mind and Honor and dishonor buffet the ego.
We identify ourself with the body and we are subject to these afflictions.
I wish to hear from you as to how this limits us.

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on June 07, 2012, 09:49:37 PM
Desire and its satisfaction is like the toothache which I gave as example and its disappearance. The happy people try to stay in this condition as much as they can. The unhappy try to become happy. But no matter what we do and what we get as result (good or bad) it is temporary. It cannot gives us relief. This is how likes and dislikes limit us. They don't give us what we want. We want happiness without a bit misery. Likes and dislikes create conditioning. But even if all our desire become satisfied then another emerges, and another, and another. We give our energy to get what we want, and again, and again. This cycle is endless. It is exhausting. At least God has given us sleep to get some rest of all this desire-looking-satisfaction cycle. As Buddha has said desire always leads to suffering. Why? Because if we don't satisfy it we will suffer but even we satisfy it we will lose the object or the feeling and at the end again we will suffer. And is it needed to talk about death? It takes away all that you have earned. This fact makes the life unbearable. This fact makes pointless all our wants to satisfaction of desires. So briefly - desire in any form is sure death but is needed instrument for our liberation.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: prasanth_ramana_maharshi on June 07, 2012, 09:52:42 PM
Quote
So briefly - desire in any form is sure death but is needed instrument for our liberation.

What is liberation and if so i.e liberated what next ?
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on June 07, 2012, 09:55:51 PM
Quote
What is liberation and if so i.e liberated what next ?

Liberation is the end of the suffering. There is nothing next. Liberation is Atma-jnana. So my question is when you have realized the Self what's next? Is there next?
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on June 07, 2012, 10:03:55 PM
Ramana/friends,
we have been discussing Love.How Love makes light work of even the worst of sorrows!There in seems to be some solution.
We are exploring what is it that limits and conditions Love;We find that it is our likes and dislikes that limit this Love.
We love someone as long as they cater to our desire ,our likes.If not ,we draw the boundary to Love and limit it to only those people who give us what we want or desire.
We are indifferent to all others who do not contribute to our pleasure or Happiness.We hate all those who cause pain or sorrow and who do not respect us.
We thus carry this 'image' of ourselves-I am so and so;I like these;I love these;I dislike all that;I hate all that.
This is how the 'I' center gets strengthened and we lose ourself in this image.This image called 'I' attaches itself to those that are favorable called 'mine'.
This 'I' and 'Mine' sense then limits the Love and eclipses it ,although it cannot erase the essence of it.Every one of us know what it is ,only we have limited it and constricted it.

Now what happens if we come across a Blessed one who is an embodiment of this Love,who is in no way limited by these boundaries?
I wish to hear from you please.

Namaskar.

Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on June 07, 2012, 10:16:46 PM
Ramana/friends,
I am about to say this-When we encounter a Sri Ramakrishna or a Bhagavan or Lord Jesus,we are deeply recalled to the state of pure Love buried in our depths?This surfaces and suffuses our being and drives away the froth and scum of the desire laden surface.
We are in this way made aware of what is God,and this is this Love and Peace within us .
I wish to hear from you.We will continue this wonderful exchange tomorrow.

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on June 07, 2012, 11:02:53 PM
Quote
Now what happens if we come across a Blessed one who is an embodiment of this Love,who is in no way limited by these boundaries?

The ego is getting or conditioning giving with expectation of getting. The Love is giving without any expectations. Desires feeds the ego. The ego and Love are in opposition. When one is growing the other is diminishing. When one is enlivening the other is dying. The ego is illusory entity which consumes everything for its own sake. Its food are desires (vasanas). Love is complete forgetfulness of your ego in some extent for some period of time for some others sake. When the ego is 'asleep' with all its longings but the mind is awake what remain is Love and Happiness.

What will happen if we are across Lord Ramana or Lord Jesus or Lord Shiva or Lord Krishna? The emptiness of these persons (no matter how contradictory it sounds) will consume our ego as much as we let them. Such persons change people. They burn their desires - first tamasic, then rajasic and at the end even sattvic, expanding the Love in you. But I repeat, as much as you let Them. If it was not that all Their devotees would be loving and enlightened which is not true.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on June 08, 2012, 07:37:40 AM
Ramana/Friends,
"The emptiness of these persons (no matter how contradictory it sounds) will consume our ego as much as we let them."

I prefer to call it Fullness.When we encounter the Great ones,our 'ego' subsides and we become aware of the presence of something sublime within us.We discover the superficiality of the egoistic ways of living-and realize the meaning and purpose of Living.It is to discover the Love,Beauty,Peace,Harmony of the core of our Being.This is the True 'I' in us-that is not contrived by the mind,not the image that we have built up due to our likes,dislikes ,attachments to all that we call 'mine' that just enhances this image 'I'.
We Realize that we adore these Great ones because they are our true 'I' and 'mine'.This is what is called the way of atma Nishta.

You have rightly said-'as much as we let them'.The mind may cunningly attach itself to these 'Great' ones and bask in the Reflected Glory.It strengthens the Identity by saying -'I am Ramana devotee or I am a Sai Devotee or....".This gives it a Definitive identity and it seeks to protect this new found Identity by feeling 'exlcusive' .It is hanging onto the personality of these Great ones and feels that it is something 'Special'.This is the way of the 'Ego' and it organizes its life around this 'personality' and seeks to add numbers to itself.This is how 'personality cult' based religions are born and a Grand structure is built on 'Ego' and 'Exclusivity'.It mistakes this 'attachment' as 'Love' for the Object of Its attachment.It leads to Division;it professes love for its adherents and seeks to convert the rest into its fold.The more the numbers,the more it feels is the Greatness of the 'Object' of Love!

We thus see how the First type is the way of Love and the second one is the Way of attachment.We obviously need not discuss the second Type henceforth.We will discuss only the First type-the way of Love.

Namaskar.

Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on June 08, 2012, 08:23:28 AM
Ramana/Friends,
I found a wonderful expression of this Truth elsewhere in this Forum by silentgreen:

"During my earlier days, I did an experiment. When I felt a little devotion for one God, I used to mentally switch to another God. The same devotion gets carried over to another God. It is like learning to swim. Once you learn swimming in one pond, you can swim in all the ponds. There may be a little preference for one pond, which is natural. Also once you have learnt swimming, whereever you see a pond, you will feel like swimming."

Simple yet profound!

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on June 08, 2012, 10:47:07 AM
Quote
I prefer to call it Fullness.

This state is called Emptiness because the ego is not there. But also is called Fullness because what left is only Love. Unfortunately as you well mentioned people are attached even to their own philosophy and Guru discarding all other philosophies and Gurus as secondary, inferior, useless or whatever. This is one of the most dangerous attachments because it creates the self-sufficiency that you follow the righteous path and at the same time you do just the opposite. Discarding people or living beings we actually shun the expansion of Love. Living with the illusion of their supremacy such kind of people are just creating of that which they are trying to escape. See the joke. Christians for example always speak against Pharisees and how ignorant, evil, corrupt and so on they are. But what they have become is even worse than what the Pharisees have been at the time of Jesus. So we need a careful inquiry to what we are not, what we are doing, how we are doing it, why we are doing it, what brings that to me, is that good for all people, is that good according to God's and Sage's prescriptions. Everyone thinks he/she is right but there must be some criterion which we can use to value our actions and spiritual path. And this is the Sanatana Dharma of all religions described by Lord Jesus which I have posted in one of my previous posts here, Upanishads and Bhagavad Gita.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on June 08, 2012, 10:49:03 AM
Ramana/Friends,
I found a wonderful expression of this Truth elsewhere in this Forum by silentgreen:

"During my earlier days, I did an experiment. When I felt a little devotion for one God, I used to mentally switch to another God. The same devotion gets carried over to another God. It is like learning to swim. Once you learn swimming in one pond, you can swim in all the ponds. There may be a little preference for one pond, which is natural. Also once you have learnt swimming, whereever you see a pond, you will feel like swimming."

Simple yet profound!

Namaskar.

Yes. Bhagavan Ramakrishna's Life is example for the Truth Sri Silentgreen has experienced too himself.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on June 08, 2012, 11:36:05 AM

"Ishta Devata"  concept is only to strengthen one's concentration and sraddha in one form of god. This does not mean
that one should dislike other gods and their forms.  Two learned people were debating about Siva and Vishnu. After debates
and after finishing their supper, they slept in the choultery hand in hand. The poet asks: Where did Siva and Vishnu go while
one is in deep sleep? There is no Siva or Vishnu once one goes to deep sleep where all the differentiation dissolves.

Arunachala Siva. 
   
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on June 08, 2012, 01:12:07 PM
Yes. But we must understand the subtle game of the ego. No matter how much things of life we start considering as non-ours the ego always finds a thing to which to cling as a straw to survive. For example: these actions are not mine, I have no control, everything is according to Lord's desire, all is my destiny. In this example the person rejects his responsibility and actions but immediately clings to another illusion and concept - this is my destiny. Or "Oh, no, I have no responsibility of anything, all is according to Lord's desire, I have no destiny either. All is in my Lord. Here the Lord becomes the object of possession. Can the Lord be mine? This game play can go even further. "No, no, even the Lord is not mine. Actually the Lord is my own Self." Here the mind projects all to the Self. Meaning the Self is mine, if It was not why Sages call It the Self. That's why Buddha very passionately has rejected the idea for the Self. Not because the Self is not Real but because the people have understood it very wrongly. Explore the ego and you will see that it can play such ingenious games which any script-writer cannot invent.

Because we started the topic about Love. True Love doesn't care about any concept or possession. True bhakta loves God because the Love Itself. He doesn't call Him mine or yours. He doesn't judge - oh, it is my will and this is Lord's. He is entirely immersed in God-consciousness. A Islamic Sufi named Rabia once has said: "I so much love Allah that I have no time to hate Sheitan." Bhakti is most natural of the Yogas but is not so easy as people think. They think that going to the church, masjid or the temple or praying so and so times a day is the true bhakti. How far from the Truth this is.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on June 08, 2012, 08:12:56 PM
Ramana/Friends,
I wish to now explore what is called dualistic Bhakti.Fact is that the nature of this is as deep as what is called non-dualistic Bhakti,irrespective of what our sophisticated mind may like to think!
Here it will be useful to ponder over what swami Vivekananda in his Bhakti Yoga has said;he comments on a very key verse from The Bhagavad Gita that has been quoted by jyoti in the Bhagavad gita online thread.This is quite a profound verse and swamiji comes out unequivocally on this:

THE NATURALNESS OF BHAKTI-YOGA AND ITS CENTRAL SECRET

"Those who with constant attention always worship You, and those who worship the Undifferentiated, the Absolute, of these who are the greatest Yogis?" — Arjuna asked of Shri Krishna. The answer was: "Those who concentrating their minds on Me worship Me with eternal constancy and are endowed with the highest faith, they are My best worshippers, they are the greatest Yogis. Those that worship the Absolute, the Indescribable, the Undifferentiated, the Omnipresent, the Unthinkable, the All-comprehending, the Immovable, and the Eternal, by controlling the play of their organs and having the conviction of sameness in regard to all things, they also, being engaged in doing good to all beings, come to Me alone. But to those whose minds have been devoted to the unmanifested Absolute, the difficulty of the struggle along the way is much greater, for it is indeed with great difficulty that the path of the unmanifested Absolute is trodden by any embodied being. Those who, having offered up all their work unto Me, with entire reliance on Me, meditate on Me and worship Me without any attachment to anything else — them, I soon lift up from the ocean of ever-recurring births and deaths, as their mind is wholly attached to Me" (Gita, XII).


Jnâna-Yoga and Bhakti-Yoga are both referred to here. Both may be said to have been defined in the above passage. Jnana-Yoga is grand; it is high philosophy; and almost every human being thinks, curiously enough, that he can surely do everything required of him by philosophy; but it is really very difficult to live truly the life of philosophy. We are often apt to run into great dangers in trying to guide our life by philosophy. This world may be said to be divided between persons of demoniacal nature who think the care-taking of the body to be the be-all and the end-all of existence, and persons of godly nature who realise that the body is simply a means to an end, an instrument intended for the culture of the soul. The devil can and indeed does cite the scriptures for his own purpose; and thus the way of knowledge appears to offer justification to what the bad man does, as much as it offers inducements to what the good man does. This is the great danger in Jnana-Yoga. But Bhakti-Yoga is natural, sweet, and gentle; the Bhakta does not take such high flights as the Jnana-Yogi, and, therefore, he is not apt to have such big falls. Until the bandages of the soul pass away, it cannot of course be free, whatever may be the nature of the path that the religious man takes.


Here is a passage showing how, in the case of one of the blessed Gopis, the soul-binding chains of both merit and demerit were broken. "The intense pleasure in meditating on God took away the binding effects of her good deeds. Then her intense misery of soul in not attaining unto Him washed off all her sinful propensities; and then she became free." —
तच्चिन्ताविपुलाह्लादक्षीणपुण्यचया तथा। तदप्राप्ति महद्दुःखविलीनाशेषपातका॥ निरुच्छासतया मुक्तिं गतान्या गोपकन्यका॥

(Vishnu-Purâna)
. In Bhakti-Yoga the central secret is, therefore, to know that the various passions and feelings and emotions in the human heart are not wrong in themselves; only they have to be carefully controlled and given a higher and higher direction, until they attain the very highest condition of excellence. The highest direction is that which takes us to God; every other direction is lower. We find that pleasures and pains are very common and oft-recurring feelings in our lives. When a man feels pain because he has not wealth or some such worldly thing, he is giving a wrong direction to the feeling. Still pain has its uses. Let a man feel pain that he has not reached the Highest, that he has not reached God, and that pain will be to his salvation When you become glad that you have a handful of coins, it is a wrong direction given to the faculty of joy; it should be given a higher direction, it must be made to serve the Highest Ideal. Pleasure in that kind of ideal must surely be our highest joy. This same thing is true of all our other feelings. The Bhakta says that not one of them is wrong, he gets hold of them all and points them unfailingly towards God.

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on June 08, 2012, 08:22:49 PM
Dear Ravi,

Yes. Passions must be given a direction to go higher and higher. Bhilwa Mangal was a die hard womanizer.  He had a woman
to whom he was going time and again. One day he went to her house and she was in the balcony. He climbed the balcony
taking hold of a rope like thing and reached the first floor. The woman saw it and got astonished. He had actually climbed
to the balcony with a hanging serpent.  She admonished him: If you show a hundredth of the passion that you are showing
for my body, you will attain Krishna.   It struck like a lightning for Bhilwa Mangal. He became a Krishna Bhakta. The woman's
name was Chintamani.

Leading a pure life thereafter, he wrote the famous Krishna Karnamritam. He mentions Chintamani's name some where in
his composition.

Pothana, the Telugu saint poet also came to God after being a womanizer and after proper counselling from the harlot.

Arunachala Siva.

   
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on June 08, 2012, 08:29:49 PM
Subramanian/Friends,
Yes.The Key point is that the Bhakta does not stand back as witness of  the thoughts and emotions but he uses them for sadhana by channelising their energy and momentum.We will explore how this happens.This is why it is called the natural way.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on June 08, 2012, 08:51:35 PM
Unfortunately bhakti can become very slippery path too when practiced by people with lower spirit. I am witness of this. Religious fundamentalism which is very common for most of the world's religion is proof for that. Here is some examples I have come across:

1. If Muslim daughter has sex before she is married, their parents stone her to death. This happened about a year ago in Turkey. But it happens every day among conservative muslim countries, there is no doubt about that. This case was announced just because it was Turkey and this country is considered as modern one, which even want to join in Europe Union and such events are inadmissible.

2. Orthodox fathers tell that all Catholics will go to hell because they pray Holy Mary more than Lord Jesus.

3. According to Muslims Jews must die because they and America get the former Muslim country by force.

4. All people with different from heterosexual orientation must be put in electric fence. (speech of an American Pastor publicly)

5. American soldier(s) burnt copies of the Koran before the afghans.

There are many examples such these. These are very extreme but there is more subtle discrimination I have been witness in the churches. Protestant church members can throw you away immediately if you are catholic or orthodox for example. We must define what bhakti is and we must distinguish it very clearly from religions.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on June 08, 2012, 09:26:43 PM
Ramana/friends,
All that you have mentioned have no place in Bhakti that we are discussing.They are just wrong and misguided Beliefs,customs and are of the Mind that is divisive.We will focus on what will truly help us and strengthen us.We need to proceed slowly as we are not here in any Debate or opinion poll.We will follow the Lives and Teachings of the Great ones.
More on this tomorrow please.

For the moment I will wind up with this wonderful poem on Rabbia and I am sure you will like it:

Rabbia
Rabbia, sick upon her bed,
By two saints was visited —
Holy Malik, Hassan wise —
Men of mark in Moslem eyes.

Hassan said, "Whose prayer is pure
Will God's chastisements endure."
Malik, from a deeper sense
Uttered his experience:
"He who loves his master's choice
Will in chastisement rejoice."

Rabbia saw some selfish will
In their maxims lingering still,
And replied "O men of grace,
He who sees his Master's face,
Will not in his prayers recall
That he is chastised at all !"

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on June 08, 2012, 09:38:36 PM
Beautiful poem, Sri Ravi. This is the spirit of the bhakta.

Yes, what I mentioned is not bhakti for me and you but for many, many the people it is and is well justified. Swami Vivekananda has spoken much about this inferior bhakti and every one who read this topic must vigorously meditate on this and to explore him/herself if he/she has not a grain from this inferiority and if there is, to work on it, remove it and go ahead!
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on June 09, 2012, 09:20:30 AM
Ramana/friends,
"Yes, what I mentioned is not bhakti for me and you but for many, many the people it is and is well justified. Swami Vivekananda has spoken much about this inferior bhakti "

Ramana,what you have mentioned is indeed a very valid point.It is interesting and instructive to explore why this happens.
If we consider animals and birds,their nature is quite predictable and they by and large live according to this swadharma.A Snake will behave like a snake;a tiger like a tiger;a Cow like a cow and so on.Whatever they are they manifest in their behavior in the outside world.
Humans are different in that they have the mind and intellect.This is indeed a great step forward if put to proper use but it also becomes a Great step Backward if put to ill use.The worst form is when it is deployed to govern the External behavior only while it leaves the inner state in a confused state of discord and turmoil.
The Result is that his thinking and feeling reverse roles-He starts to feel through his thoughts and think through his feelings.

Feeling through thought is what is called sentiment.
Thinking through feeling is called Bias.

I will cite a few examples to make this clear:
Love is a feeling and all have experienced this.In its fullness it is pure awareness only,yet in its expression it is a feeling which gives itself freely.So all Religions say:Love all,Be charitable to the poor and needy.
The one who is really Loving immediately understands and lives this in a spontaneous way.
What happens to the one who is quite hollow and does not have the intensity of this feeling?He substitutes his 'thought' for the 'Feeling'.He says 'Love is when I give in Charity to the 10 beggars sitting outside the temple or mosque.Let me give them a pence each.He distributes this' and thinks 'I have been Loving'!Thinking is substituted for feeling.

Likewise,Feeling may substitute for Thinking!We will take an example :A Man has ill feeling towards a particular community;He strongly feels that they have to be taught a lesson.He just hates that community.What happens now?Someone comes up with a quotation from the Holy Koran or The Bhagavad Gita and this man is triggered.
He starts thinking-'This is the Right thing to be done.I must set aside all other considerations and act as per this.I am quite clear now'.This is the 'Devil quoting scriptures'.He justifies his feeling and lets it do the thinking,with disastrous Result.

Now what is the way out?Some people wrongly come to the conclusion that emotions and feelings lead one astray and they have to be set aside and only the rule of the Intellect must prevail.This is like throwing the baby with the bath water.Man can be intensely Human while he aspires and Realizes the Divine.
The Emotions and Feelings can be wonderfully put to use to enrich Life and Spiritual Living.This is the way of Bhakti.
This does not mean that a Bhakta will neglect the Intellect.No ,often it is the Devotee who puts the Intellect to better use.He employs it to see that no mixture masquerades as Bhakti,No external show is put on,etc.All these faculties have their place and can be put to use.

I wish to hear from you.

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on June 09, 2012, 05:24:50 PM
Sri Ravi. Are the thoughts and emotions a problem? If it was so all that Scriptures tell us to think and love God are empty words. In the relative state we live in the problem is more the nature of the thoughts and feeling than their existence. Thoughts and feelings show us where we are right now and what are the dominant vasanas. So bhakti means just direction of all our thoughts, actions and feeling towards God. It also means meditation on God which denotes that all thoughts are absent except the thought of God.

Thoughts and feeling are interdependent. Good thoughts bring good feelings. Bad thoughts bring bad feelings. Bad feelings generate bad thoughts. Good feelings generate good thoughts. They both determine that what we call mind. When you are sick and feel awful many bad thoughts become to emerge. When you are unhappy, fro example because you are not admitted in university, and thoughts of hope that next time you will do better and so on can change this unhappiness creating fresh positive and optimistic attitude which makes you feel good.

Here is the problem with most people. Let's not talk about the great bhaktas we all have listened about. Let accept them as exceptional. Let see ourselves. Is thinking about God makes us happy? Do we really love God? Do we really want to surrender our life to God? The truth is that if we don't love God, then thinking about Him will not make us happy and we won't surrender to Him, especially if we have very good life, full of friends, comfort and secular enjoyments. Why we want to search God? To save us from death? To give us eternal life? To give us boons? These questions are very important because their answer gives us clear picture of yourself. But I think that if one doesn't love God, the mere fact that he/she wants to go to the path of bhakti is enough for the beginning of his/her spiritual change. Everyone must start from somewhere. But I strongly believe that all bhaktas at the end go to the same destination. May be not in this life but they do. Most people withdraw the bhakti marga because they are used to do only what bring them happiness right now. They don't want to wait devotional seed they saw to germinate and grow. And there are many causes for that created by religions, philosophical traditions and some spiritual people.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on June 09, 2012, 06:54:48 PM
Dear Ramana,

Whether we think about god and then love him or we love god and then think about him.  I am of the view that thinking (which is
from mind) comes first and it blossoms into love for god (from heart) soon. Because all bhakti marga presupposes a god with form.
That God's form - we think first. If God  is formless then there is no question of thinking and also loving. How to love a formless
Principle without thinking about It first?

Hence in bhakti marga, thinking comes first and that thought produces a feeling of love towards God. The idea comes about when
we begin to think that he is the Sole Refuge, when all our own efforts in this world fail to produce results and we trust him to give
us good results because He is the ultimate Refuge. Bhakti marga can thrive only with a god with form and then love for him. This love
is devotion to differentiate that it is not love for an object or a person in the world but a love for the Supreme Being. Of course, as
I said yesterday, that the word love and devotion are used interchangeably in Tamizh literature.

This devotion gives rise to service to God (Sri Muruganar calls it iRaipaNi niRRal). IRaipani NiRRal in
Sri Ramana's teachings is only being in constant abidance in the Self, see Verse 29 of Upadesa Undiyar.  However
service to God in bhakti varies from doing pujas to God to buying flowers to make garlands, bring good water to bathe the
god's image, weeding out the unwanted growth of plants in temples, preparaing prasadams, buying camphor and incense
sticks for the temple, cleaning the temple precincts once in a while.  All these are service to God. This service is done without
any ego and doership, just due to the love of God for love's sake. Then it blossoms into surrender. Total surrender comes
about when even a trace of ego is not there.

You may ask how Moslems love god without having a form for Him. This is substituted by visiting Kabba (Haj Journey), keeping
a picture of the holiest verse of Koran (786) and meditating before that, in case one cannot go to a mosque. Even in mosque
where there is no god, they light incense sticks as you may be knowing.

In Buddhism, though Mahayana gives no room for any god, in Hinayana, they keep an idol for Buddha and do pujas, and arti
and sing some songs.  I have seen this in man Buddhist viharas in Sri Lanka and also in Maha Bodhi Society in Bangalore.

Arunachala Siva.                 
 
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on June 09, 2012, 11:08:06 PM
Ramana/subramanian/friends,
We are chewing more than a mouthful! :)
1.Thoughts vs Feelings.
"Thoughts and feeling are interdependent. Good thoughts bring good feelings. Bad thoughts bring bad feelings. Bad feelings generate bad thoughts. Good feelings generate good thoughts. They both determine that what we call mind".

2.Why do we want God?
"Why we want to search God? To save us from death? To give us eternal life? To give us boons? These questions are very important because their answer gives us clear picture of yourself."

Yes Ramana ,thoughts and feelings are related and yet they have their distinctinctive features.In my last few posts ,I have covered the Role of Thought and Feelings.Thoughts pertain to the verbal sphere and are expressed through words whereas Feelings belong to the non verbal Domain and hence are much more intimate to us.A few bars of music from a Great composer immediately plunges us into our depths ;let us say ,for example,the Hammerklavier Sonata (No.29) of Beethoven,the stentorian opening Chords immediately invoke a sense of awe, Immensity and Grandeur that pulls us in with an immediacy and urgency that no thought can match.
Right now,I am baffled by the need for putting something that does not belong to the thought domain in the form of words here.So,I will just copy here what I had posted some years ago elsewhere.We need to go through this slowly as otherwise we will miss the point entirely.
This is the First instalment that I had posted in David's Blog in 2008 or so:

"This is my first instalment on Bhakti way-as I have understood,in my own language.With a prayer to the Guru for guiding me in sharing what is deeply personal-Not all can be expressed in words.Yet, I will try my best.

Before I begin, let me just explain why I am not a Saibaba devotee, or a Ramakrishna Devotee, or Ramana devotee or Aurobindo Devotee! This means that I do not subscribe to tags or Bandwagons-The Herd instinct that seeks an identity and feels secure in belonging to the herd.This sort of instinct mistakes emotion for devotion, bigotry for Faithfulness and insulation for steadfastness-leaving very little room for openness, development and exploration.

What is Bhakti or the path of devotion? Why is it so natural? Why does it take one deeper? What is depth? I will try to cover some of these aspects. As humans we are creatures of feeling than thought. Feeling is the actual, thought is the ideal. Feeling is immediate than thought which is peripheral to us. We live in our feelings and use thought to steer, sort, understand, judge. Feelings can be expressed very effectively in a nonverbal way –a smile, a handshake, a hug can immediately connect people. Thought has to use words and often this may not convey effectively what was originally intended.
What are the Feelings that we are familiar with?-Joy, compassion, Love, Fear, anger, sorrow, Greed, jealousy. In Joy, love and compassion we find ourselves and also expand ourselves. We discover ourselves and also reach out to others. In Fear, Anger, sorrow, greed and Jealousy, we lose ourselves and also isolate ourselves. This is something we all have experienced and know very well. Yet in actual living do we reflect this understanding?
To gain ourselves in Joy, compassion and love is the very purpose of Living. This is what is defined by the mind-know thyself. What is to be done to regain this lost innocence?
We need to let go of Anger, Jealousy, Greed, Fear-To become aware of the negative impact of these emotions and to learn to stand apart is the Way of Gnana.
To dwell in Joy, compassion and Love is the way of Bhakti.
What is love? We all feel this-
There is this sense of attraction. Yet attraction alone is not love if it grabs hold of what it is attracted to-becomes possessive-for this leads to a contraction and Jealousy springs from this. This sort of love is destructive. It follows that instead of Grabbing, if there is giving then there is expansion. In this Expansion there is Compassion. In compassion there is joy.
This love is our true nature; yet because of our contracted way of living by pursuing self centred activity we have shrunk ourselves; love is covered with a thick smokescreen of negative emotions. We still have the spark of the old flame and this still peeps out at certain moments in our lives. How to fan the dying embers into a huge conflagration that consumes everything and leaves us in our state of innocence!
How to recognize the peeping out of compassion?I will pause here and continue later."
to be continued...

There are many Related things here.Subramanian has posted the way of Bhakti-this is called Gauni Bhakti or preparatory Bhakti.What I have posted is what Sri Ramakrishna describes as 'Raga Bhakti' where the spontaneity of Love is experienced by the Devotee.We will cover all these and to do this ,we need to cover a vast Ground.Most importantly we need to understand each other's way of Expressing these aspects.
Namaskar.

Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on June 10, 2012, 07:16:47 AM
Ramana,
Your post covers a vast ground and I just want to tell you that I concur with it.You are saying:
"Most people withdraw the bhakti marga because they are used to do only what bring them happiness right now. They don't want to wait devotional seed they saw to germinate and grow. And there are many causes for that created by religions, philosophical traditions and some spiritual people".

Quite true.Yet,one needs to get atleast a glimpse initially;it is akin to what Sri Bhagavan felt as a Boy-'That ArunAchala was something Grand and sublime'.He just felt it and it was not a thought borrowed from someone else.It sprang from within.Likewise the devotee gets a 'peep' from within and this is what sets him firmly on the path.

There may be a long period of preparation that is required to uncover and reach to it.Here is where Trust,Faith and Steadfastness and above all Love plays a significant role.Love itself is the means as well as the end.


You are asking:Why we want to search God? To save us from death? To give us eternal life? To give us boons?
The Ripe devotee does not want any of these things.He just wants God,for God is Love and Peace.He does not seek god to fulfill his desires,as a means to an end.
Lord Sri Krishna mentions this in the Gita:
"chatur-vidha bhajante mam
janah sukritino ’rjuna
arto jijnasur artharthi
jnani cha bharatarsabha" (Bhagwat Gita: Chapter Seven verse 16)

"Sri Krishna said: O Arjuna, four kinds of pious men begin to render devotional service unto Me—the distressed, the inquisitive, the desirer of wealth, and the one who is a jnAni."

"udarah sarva evaite
jnani tv atmaiva me matam
asthitah sa hi yuktatma
mam evanuttamam gatim" (Bhagwat Gita: Chapter Seven verse 18)

"Sri Krishna said: All these devotees are undoubtedly magnanimous souls, but he who is situated in knowledge of Me, I consider to be just like My own self. Being engaged in My transcendental service, he/she is sure to attain Me, the highest and most perfect goal."

I have mentioned this to say that I have read your post and we are in Sync.Also jnAna and Bhakti ultimately mean the same thing and yet in their approach and methods do differ.
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on June 10, 2012, 10:44:55 PM
Dear Ramana,

Whether we think about god and then love him or we love god and then think about him.  I am of the view that thinking (which is
from mind) comes first and it blossoms into love for god (from heart) soon. Because all bhakti marga presupposes a god with form.
That God's form - we think first. If God  is formless then there is no question of thinking and also loving. How to love a formless
Principle without thinking about It first?

Hence in bhakti marga, thinking comes first and that thought produces a feeling of love towards God. The idea comes about when
we begin to think that he is the Sole Refuge, when all our own efforts in this world fail to produce results and we trust him to give
us good results because He is the ultimate Refuge. Bhakti marga can thrive only with a god with form and then love for him. This love
is devotion to differentiate that it is not love for an object or a person in the world but a love for the Supreme Being. Of course, as
I said yesterday, that the word love and devotion are used interchangeably in Tamizh literature.

This devotion gives rise to service to God (Sri Muruganar calls it iRaipaNi niRRal). IRaipani NiRRal in
Sri Ramana's teachings is only being in constant abidance in the Self, see Verse 29 of Upadesa Undiyar.  However
service to God in bhakti varies from doing pujas to God to buying flowers to make garlands, bring good water to bathe the
god's image, weeding out the unwanted growth of plants in temples, preparaing prasadams, buying camphor and incense
sticks for the temple, cleaning the temple precincts once in a while.  All these are service to God. This service is done without
any ego and doership, just due to the love of God for love's sake. Then it blossoms into surrender. Total surrender comes
about when even a trace of ego is not there.

You may ask how Moslems love god without having a form for Him. This is substituted by visiting Kabba (Haj Journey), keeping
a picture of the holiest verse of Koran (786) and meditating before that, in case one cannot go to a mosque. Even in mosque
where there is no god, they light incense sticks as you may be knowing.

In Buddhism, though Mahayana gives no room for any god, in Hinayana, they keep an idol for Buddha and do pujas, and arti
and sing some songs.  I have seen this in man Buddhist viharas in Sri Lanka and also in Maha Bodhi Society in Bangalore.

Arunachala Siva.                 

Yes, Sri Subramanian. It is very difficult to love God without form but it is not impossible. The Father in Christianity has no Form, even Name but is object of devotion and love to all christians, including His incarnation - Lord Jesus. Let's not forget that even the concept is 'an object' in relation to its possessor. But yes, the Father is too abstract for most of the christians and they meditate on the image of Lord Jesus Christ.

But I cannot agree that in bhakti marga thoughts precede the feelings. I say from my personal experience. I will give you only one example which is fresh in my mind. One christian father from Macedonia during communist's period prayed once, just for play: "Lord, if you exist, give me a sign". He didn't believed, he has said it even like a joke but series of strange events happened in his life. All his prayers has been answered. And he prayed again to convince that this is not true but he imagines it. But God again answered his prayers. Finally he has experienced a feeling of profound unconditional love. "I felt so happy, so complete. My life changed forever. I 'died' and was born again". From this time he has started doing all church rituals, reading the Bible and so on. In this case feelings preceded the thoughts. And this is just one example. I am witness of many, many more. I am sure that this is true for every religion. Now I remembered about a Englishman, catholic, who has vision of Ganesha. He started to feel the same unconditional Love. From this time he organized foundation for protection of the environment, animal and plants. I am sure you can add many such stories.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on June 10, 2012, 10:48:38 PM
Quote
Quite true.Yet,one needs to get atleast a glimpse initially;it is akin to what Sri Bhagavan felt as a Boy-'That ArunAchala was something Grand and sublime'.He just felt it and it was not a thought borrowed from someone else.It sprang from within.Likewise the devotee gets a 'peep' from within and this is what sets him firmly on the path.

Yes. This glimpse is the the spark needed. Let as much as possible people experience this spark!
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on June 11, 2012, 07:03:29 AM
Ramana/Friends,
I will post the second installment on the Bhakti way(posted in David's blog):
Thanks for expressing yourself clearly-“It would be useful to hear more about how to discover oneself through dwelling in compassion, joy, and love”. Just want to state  that Love, Compassion and Joy is you! There is no ‘oneself’to be discovered!
We are using words to describe this; it will be helpful to understand to understand the words in relation to Emotion, Feeling and awareness.

Emotion---leads to---------------->Feeling----leads to------------>Awareness.


We start at the emotional level, go to the Feeling Level and then land in pure Awareness; Using words is not helpful-so we may take to nonverbal cues to explore this-what better way than music to do this. I am sure you will be familiar with Western Classical music. We will take the cues from a few familiar pieces so that we communicate better.
We take for instance a Symphony no.6 of Tchaikovsky(or any other symphony of his)or a Mahler Symphony and compare it say with Schubert’s Eighth-The theme after the question mark theme-played by the woodwinds-an ethereal one ,wistful,floating,vulnerable!What is the difference ?Tchaikovsky drains ones energy, is extroverted, exhibitionistic-is at an emotional Level-whether joyous, pathetic, whatever be the emotion represented .The Schubert one is at the Feeling Level-takes one inward, does not drain energy.

Similarly we may identify the feelings of Yearning by say Beethoven’s Minuet in G-(This cue was given by Paul Brunton in his excellent book-In quest of the overself)-a gentle nostalgic dreamy theme full of longing-that constitute a search for something not known!

We may take Schubert’s Ave Maria-we know what love, compassion means! We are able to understand the compelling power of this theme that unifies us and makes us whole. We are freed from the tyranny of thoughts and are more in touch with ourselves. When the piece ends do we find ourselves just limpid and surrendered! This is the state of awareness."

Sri Ramakrishna says so beautifully  about this progression inwards:
"In the kirtan the devotee first sings, 'Nitai amar mata hati.'(Nitai(disciple of Sri Chaitanya) is our mad elephant-meaning, Nitai is mad with love of God-Ravi) As the devotional mood
deepens, he simply sings, 'Hati! Hati!' Next, all he can sing is 'Hati'. And last of all he
simply sings, 'Ha!' and goes into samadhi. The man who has been singing all the while then
becomes speechless.
"Again, at a feast given to the brahmins one at first hears much noise of talking. When the
guests sit on the floor with leaf-plates in front of them, much of the noise ceases. Then one
hears only the cry, 'Bring some luchi!'
As they partake of the luchi and other dishes, three quarters of the noise subsides. When the
curd, the last course, appears, one hears only the sound 'soop, soop' as the guests eat the
curd with their fingers. Then there is practically no noise. Afterwards all retire to sleep, and
absolute silence reigns."

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on June 11, 2012, 05:52:22 PM
Dear Ravi,

Yes. When one starts eating the food on the leaf plate, there is no further talk. That is why Sri Bhagavan after Self Realization
remained almost silent, barring a fee words here and there, during His stay in Virupaksha Cave. All His conversations with eager
and sincere devotees came up much later when He was in Skandasramam and the present Asramam in the Old Hall.

Even here, the example given is: When a man was suffering from head ache, he takes paracetamol.  When the head ache is
gone, the remaining tablets are held somewhere. Only when someone comes to that person complaining about head ache,
he has to search for that paracetamol and then give it to that person.

Here unlike our headaches, the headache once gone is gone for ever. There is no use for paracetamol afterwards for him!

Arunachala Siva.   
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on June 11, 2012, 11:49:24 PM
Dear Sri Subramanian. I have found a post of Sri Graham who quotes Lord Kapila's word. I give this to you for our discussion about how we must worship the Lord - do we must see Him in every creature and serve that creature as manifestation of Him or we must to worship Him as Deity outside His creation and serving Him that way. Here is what Sri Graham has posted:

Quote
Below are the words of Lord Kapila, given in response to his mother's questions (from the Srimad Bhagavatham).

I suggest that contributors to this forum read them very carefully, especially the part in bold text and desist from finding fault where none exists.

XXIX

Devahuti asks about the Yoga of Devotion (Bhakti-yoga), which is said to be the object of all spiritual investigations, and about the nature of Time (Kala) who rules everything from Brahma downward and concludes with a hymn:

“You have come down, O Lord, to spread the light of yoga everywhere like a spiritual sun and awaken those who, having been blinded by the unreal objects of sense and by attachment to action, lie asleep in abysmal darkness.”
Kapila replies:

“The Yoga of Devotion, O mother, is manifold, differing according to the natural propensities of the devotees.

He who takes Me as separate from himself and worships Me with a mind which is full of anger, violence, jealousy and hypocrisy, his is tamasic devotion (the lowest).

He who worships Me through an image different from, and external to himself, with the motive of gaining worldly power, fame, offspring or a desired object, his devotion is rajasic.

The devotee who worships Me in expiation of his sins or who, as a duty, surrenders all his actions to Me as distinguished from himself, his devotion is sattvic.

But the devotion of him who is motiveless and whose love towards Me, the Dweller in all hearts is like the uninterrupted flow of the sacred Ganga towards the ocean: it is the highest yoga called the unqualified Bhakti yoga, which transcends the gunas and for which he forgoes the five forms of bliss offered by Me as a reward for his devotion, namely-

1. Salokya (dwelling in My own abode)
2. Sarshti (siddhis)
3. Samipya (residing ever in My presence in a form)
4. Sarupya (assuming a form like Mine)
5. Sayujya (absorption into My Being). This devotee attains My very State.

“Attending spiritual discourses, chanting holy names, and residence with saints purify the mind and develop devotion to Me without great effort. Just as a perfume is carried by the wind to the organ of smell, so is devotion to Me carried through these means to the mind that has acquired steadiness by the practice of yoga.

The worship of Me, the inner Ruler of all beings, through an idol is disrespectful and a mock worship. He who ignores My Supreme Nature and stupidly represents Me by an idol is like him who pours oblations over ashes (rather than over the sacred fire).

“Again he who is full of anger hates Me in the body of another, imagining him to be different from himself and bears malice to living beings. This man can never find peace, and I am never pleased with him even if he worships My image with the costliest materials, O sinless Mother, I frighten with the terror of death him who makes distinctions between himself and others, because I am their very Self.

Of the inanimate creatures, the animate are higher.
Higher than the latter are those who have perceptions.
Superior to these are human beings, of whom those who belong to the four castes are better; and of the four the Brahmin caste is the best.
The knowers of the Veda are superior to the Brahmins
Superior to them is he who performs his duty well.
Superior to him is the man who works with detachment.
Higher than the latter is he who dedicates his actions, their fruits and even his body to Me, seeing no distinction between himself and Myself.
And I find him peerless and above all others who views all beings as himself. Respecting all as the dwelling places of the Lord, nay, as the Lord Himself, one should be humble in dealing with them even mentally.

“These are the various yogas, O Princess, following which one attains the Supreme Self, which is the absolute Brahman of the Vedanta and Supreme Purusha of the Sankhya. It is also Providence, Who dispenses karmas to the Jivas, as well as Time, who causes unceasing changes in things and phenomena and terror to those who identify themselves with the products of the gunas. Himself unborn, Time causes a beginning to the universe, and Himself endless He ends the universe, after having maintained it by making one individual spring up from another, etc.”
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on June 12, 2012, 08:09:57 AM
Ramana/subramanian/Friends,

      ABOU BEN ADHEM

ABOU BEN ADHEM (may his tribe increase!)   
Awoke one night from a deep dream of peace,   
And saw—within the moonlight in his room,   
Making it rich and like a lily in bloom—   
An angel, writing in a book of gold.           5
Exceeding peace had made Ben Adhem bold,   
And to the presence in the room he said,   
‘What writest thou?’—The vision raised its head,   
And, with a look made of all sweet accord,   
Answered, ‘The names of those who love the Lord.’           10
‘And is mine one?’ said Abou. ‘Nay, not so,’   
Replied the angel. Abou spoke more low,   
But cheerly still, and said, ‘I pray thee, then,   
Write me as one that loves his fellow men.’   
 
The angel wrote and vanished. The next night           15
It came again with a great wakening light,   
And showed the names whom love of God had blessed,   
And lo! Ben Adhem’s name led all the rest.

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on June 12, 2012, 11:55:33 AM
Dear Ramana,

Yes. Saiva Siddhantam also speaks of four types of mukti - Salokam, Sarupyam, Sameepyam, Sayujyam.  They do not include
siddhis there.

Dear Ravi,

I remember the poem Abu Ben Adam which I read in school days. If God could write our name as one who loves everyone
including God, that is enough. Sri Ramana tells this same idea in His Pancharatnam Verse 5.

Arunachala Siva. 
 
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on June 13, 2012, 10:11:46 AM
Dear all,

Intoxicated by the Wine of Love.
From each a mystic silence Love demands.
What do all seek so earnestly? 'Tis Love.
What do they whisper to each other? Love.
Love is the subject of their inmost thoughts.
In Love no longer 'thou' and 'I' exist,
For Self has passed away in the Beloved.
Now will I draw aside the veil from Love,
And in the temple of mine inmost soul,
Behold the Friend; Incomparable Love.
He who would know the secret of both worlds,
Will find the secret of them both, is Love.

Farid ud Din Attar, Sufi Mistic

Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on June 13, 2012, 10:23:20 AM
In the dead of night, a Sufi began to weep.
He said, "This world is like a closed coffin, in which
We are shut and in which, through our ignorance,
We spend our lives in folly and desolation.
When Death comes to open the lid of the coffin,
Each one who has wings will fly off to Eternity,
But those without will remain locked in the coffin.
So, my friends, before the lid of this coffin is taken off,
Do all you can to become a bird of the Way to God;
Do all you can to develop your wings and your feathers."

Farid ud Din Attar
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on June 17, 2012, 10:54:07 AM
Talking about mind then it would be helpful to explain when the mind is considered tamasic, rajasic or sattvic in nature. How to determine it?
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on June 17, 2012, 11:38:13 AM
Dear ramana,

The mind is said to be tamasic - when one feels sleepy, jaded, tipsy, with no interest in anything but sleep. Yawning etc., are
outward symbols.

The mind is said to be rajasic - when it is full of anger, lust, greed, jealousy, pride, self importance, constantly thinking of\
doing something and not being still.  Fast heart beat is the outward symbol.

The mind is said to be sattvic - when one feels absolutely at ease, still, not doing anything, even speaking more, ever serene
and collected and cool.

These three gunas come and go constantly for a person. When a man is totally sattvic all the time, he is fit for meditation,l
self inquiry or surrender.  Steady heart beat and cool countenance are its outward symbol.

Arunachala Siva.   
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: sanjaya_ganesh on June 17, 2012, 01:17:07 PM
Lord defines it in the best possible way in Chapter 14 Gunatraya Vibhaga Yoga of Gita already. Not just teh state of mind, but also the habits, food etc of each type of person so well...

-Sanjay
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on June 18, 2012, 12:14:13 PM
Thank you, Ganesha!

CHAPTER XIV

THE THREE GUNAS

1. The Blessed Lord said: I will again declare the supreme Knowledge, the highest of all knowings, which having known, all the sages have gone hence to the highest perfection.
2. Having taken refuge in this knowledge and become of like nature and law of being with Me, they are not born in the creation, nor troubled by the anguish of the universal dissolution.
3. My womb is the Mahat Brahman; into that I cast the seed; thence spring all beings, O Bharata.
4. Whatever forms are produced in whatsoever wombs, O Kaunteya, the Mahat Brahman is their womb, and I am the Father who casts the seed.
5. The three gunas born of Prakriti, Sattwa, Rajas and Tamas bind in the body, O great-armed one, the imperishable dweller in the body.
6. Of these Sattwa is by the purity of its quality a cause of light and illumination, and by virtue of that purity produces no disease or morbidity or suffering in the nature: it binds by attachment to knowledge and attachment to happiness, O sinless one.
7. Rajas, know thou, has for its essence attraction of liking and longing; it is a child of the attachment of the soul to the desire of objects; O Kaunteya, it binds the embodied spirit by attachment to works.
8. But Tamas, know thou, born of ignorance, is the deluded of all embodied beings; it binds by negligence, indolence and sleep, O Bharata.
9. Sattwa attaches to happiness, rajas to action, O Bharata; tamas covers up the knowledge and attaches to negligence of error and inaction.
10. Now sattwa leads, having overpowered rajas and tamas, O Bharata; now rajas, having overpowered sattwa and tamas; and now tamas, having overpowered sattwa and rajas.
11. When into all the doors in the body there comes a flooding of light, a light of understanding, perception and knowledge, one should understand that there has been a great increase and uprising of the sattwic guna in the nature.
12. Greed, seeking impulsions, initiative of actions, unrest, desire - all this mounts in us when rajas increases.
13. Nescience, inertia, negligence and delusion - these are born when tamas predominates, O joy of the Kurus.
14. If sattwa prevails when the embodied goes to dissolution, then he attains to the spotless worlds of the knowers of the highest principles.
15. Going to dissolution when rajas prevails, he is born among those attached to action; if dissolved during the increase of tamas, he is born in the wombs of beings involved in nescience.
16. It is said the fruit of works rightly done is pure and sattwic; pain is the consequence of rajasic works, ignorance is the result of tamasic action.
17. From sattwa knowledge is born, and greed from rajas; negligence and delusion are of tamas, and also ignorance.
18. They rise upwards who are in sattwa; those in rajas remain in the middle; the tamasic, those enveloped in ignorance and inertia, the effect of the lowest quality, go downwards.
19. When the seer perceives that the modes of Nature are the whole agency and cause of works and knows and turns to That which is supreme above the gunas, he attains to mad-bhava (the movement and status of the Divine).
20. When the soul thus rises above the three gunas born of the embodiment in Nature, he is freed from subjection to birth and death and their concomitants, decay, old age and suffering, and enjoys in the end the Immortality of its self-existence.
21. Arjuna said: What are the signs of the man who has risen above the three gunas, O Lord? What is his action and how does he surmount the gunas?
22. The Blessed Lord said: He, O Pandava, who does not abhor or shrink from the operation of enlightenment (the result of rising sattwa) or impulsion to works (the result of rising rajas) or the clouding over of the mental and nervous being (the result of rising tamas), nor longs after them, when they cease.
23. He who, established in a position as of one seated high above, is unshaken by the gunas; who seeing that it is the gunas that are in process of action stands apart immovable.
24-25. He who regards happiness and suffering alike, gold and mud and stone as of equal value, to whom the pleasant and the unpleasant, praise and blame, honour and insult, the faction of his friends and the faction of his enemies are equal things; who is steadfast in a wise imperturbable and immutable inner calm and quietude; who initiates no action (but leaves all works to be done by the gunas of Nature) - he is said to be above the gunas.
26. He also who loves and strives after Me with an undeviating love and adoration, passes beyond the three gunas and he too is prepared for becoming the Brahman.
27. I (the Purushottama) am the foundation of the silent Brahman and of Immortality and imperishable spiritual existence and of the eternal dharma and of an utter bliss of happiness.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on June 25, 2012, 06:43:19 PM
It is said that Self-inquiry is the direct Path to Self-realization and one doesn't need observe any rules as strict diet, solitude, brahmacharya and so on. These are thoughts of Lord Ramana and Lord Shiva Himself. Why is it so? Why there is no restrictions?
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on June 26, 2012, 03:50:37 PM
Dear Ramana,

This is not totally true.  For beginners in sadhana, Sri Bhagavan always insisted on acharam, (mental and body purity), observance
of rituals, sandhya etc., Once He told Mahadevan, son of Kavyakanta Ganapati Muni, after seeing him growing a long hair:
"Are you not Nayana's son? How come you are having such a long hair without tuft of hair?  Mahadevan went immediately
and removed his long hair and had a tuft hair, with front portion of the head fully shaven!  Again when M. Sivaprakasam Pillai
came with tonsured head, He said: acharam videl, anartham Ahum...don't leave acharam, it will ruin you!  M. Pillai thereafter
grew his hair and made a tuft of hair. In those days, not only Brahmins but also Pillais' had tuft of hair. Goldsmiths had also
tuft of hair.

For those who are middlings, He suggested continuation of self inquiry without diverting their minds to reading so many
scriptures, or any other diversions to women etc.,  When Kunju Swami wanted to Kovilur Math and read  Tamizh Vedanta
texts (there are about 16 of them), He said: Oho! You wanted to read all Tamizh Vedanta. Then you will like to read Saiva
Siddhanta, then tarka sastra, (logic).....It will be endless. You have come only for Self inquiry. No need to read any other
books to do inquiry. Kunju Swami kept quite and dropped the idea of going to Kovilur Math.  Again Annamalai Swami once
after seeing a good looking cooling girl, who had come for construction work, went a little restless, with lust rising in his mind.
Sri Bhagavan made him to stand on hot bricks on a daytime bearing all the heat of Tiruvannamalai sun!  He was asked to
stand for more than 2 hours.

For who are mature sadhakas, almost on the verge of realization, Sri Bhagavan discouraged observances like peforming
ceremonies etc., Once He told Muruganar, 'Why are you still doing annual ceremonies for your mother? You want Brahmins
for that. I am one Brahmin. I shall do the kriya for you!  Muruganar became speechless and stopped ceremonies and even
wearing sacred thread.

For realized persons like Sri Bhagavan, who was an ati varnasrami, no rules need be observed. Once Rangan asked Sri
Bhagavan: Then, can Brahma Jnanis marry too? Sri Bhagavan smiled and said: Hm....Hm....

In some other context, He quoted the story of KaduveLi Siddhar, (who was a celebate, but had to marry a dancing girl,
due to her insistence. And also the story of Tondari podi Azhwar, who married his servant maid (she was also a dancer)
and both were Brahma Jnanis!

So rules vary according to maturity of sadhana and attainment of Self realization.

Arunachala Siva.   
           
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on June 26, 2012, 07:38:25 PM
So what are the regulations given by Sri Bhagavan to one who practices Self-inquiry?
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on June 26, 2012, 07:57:13 PM
Dear Ramana,

As I mentioned in the previous post.

If you are a beginner, do Self Inquiry side by side with achara anustanams.

If you are a middling, do Self Inquiry, but without mind slipping into other areas outside, whether it is books, sex, for tasty
food.

If you are mature and fit enough to take the final plunge, do only Self Inquiry, without bothering about other acharams
or diversions.

If you are self realized, then no rule shall bother you.

That is why, if you go through the book Talks with Ramana Maharshi, you will find Sri Bhagavan prescribing different things
to different questioners.  He knew their maturity level.

If you are far away from a river, you have to dig a well first to drink water.

If you are close to a river, you can take water from the river itself.

If you become river itself, then there is no thirst for the river.
     
Arunachala Siva. 
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: sanjaya_ganesh on June 27, 2012, 11:21:35 AM
Quote
It is said that Self-inquiry is the direct Path to Self-realization and one doesn't need observe any rules as strict diet, solitude, brahmacharya and so on.


From what I understand, it is the OTHER way. One who is on the "Path" (as mentioned here) will automagically find only some foods acceptable to him/her, will find only some life styles acceptable to him/her. People who saw these food / life styles etc. misinterpreted it and said that if you observe these foods / restrictions you will be able to travel the "Path". In fact, it is not true - the reverse is true. This is a common misinterpretation that many do - especially when they explain Gunatraya Vibhaga Yoga in Gita. By observing these you dont get there - but if you are on your journey you will like only some specific lifestyles.

-Sanjay
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on June 27, 2012, 11:34:36 AM
Dear Sanjay,

In Tiruvannamalai, during Sri Bhagavan's time, Arthur Osborne left non vegetarian food only after several years. Devaraja Mudaliar
also left non vegetarian food only after many years. Echammal was on the other extreme. She was not even touching
onion and garlics.  So while on Path, these inadequacies are there, but they leave one by one
only after attaining some maturity. Not at the beginning of the Path itself.

Arunachala Siva. 
 
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on June 27, 2012, 03:29:11 PM
I agree with sanjaya. If for example I am advised to not eat meat or whatever but that is my favorite meal then trying forcibly to quit that food will do more harm than good to my mental and emotional balance. I fully accept and the opinion of Sri Subramanian - regulations are necessary for the beginners but they must be applied very carefully and gradually by our inner guidance. What is good for one is harmful for another. What is good for one for a particular period of his/her life may be harmful in future.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on June 29, 2012, 12:11:32 AM
Today a question arised in my mind. The jnani sees the world as non-existent. But then why does He/She care so much about all these "non-existent" souls?
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on June 29, 2012, 07:56:10 PM
Dear Ramana,

Sri Bhagavan said that we have to only treat the world as non existent during sadhana. Upon self realization, all (the world
and people and even non-human living beings) appear as Brahma Swarupam. The World is the Self. The people are all Jnanis.
That is why Sri Bhagavan said: Where is ajnani among you? All of you are Jnanis only!  Because He saw them as Jnana
Swarupam.

Sri Bhagavan describes this in Verse 5 of Arunachala Pancharatnam.

He, who with Heart to you surrendered,
Beholds for ever you alone,
Sees all things as forms of You
And loves and serves them as none other
Than the Self, O Aruna Hill,
Triumphs because he is immersed
In You whose being is Pure Bliss.

Sri Bhagavan used to quote Sri Sankara's three sentences:

Brahmam Satyam 
Jagat Mithya
Brahmam Jagat.

Arunachala Siva.   
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on July 04, 2012, 07:34:25 PM
I would be glad if Sri Ravi describe Sri Ramakrishna's advices and directions towards God-realization. Sri Ravi, can you sum up the teachings of Sri Ramakrishna in 10 or 20 verses? Thank you in advance. I will wait as much as it is needed.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on July 08, 2012, 06:37:35 PM
I have read recently about Milk miracle during 90's. Were any of you witness of this phenomenon?
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on July 08, 2012, 07:00:05 PM
Dear Ramana,

Control of mind is what? It is only control of thoughts. The basis of all thoughts is I-thought, abhimana vritti. So Sri Bhagavan said
'Find out to whom this 'I-thought" arises?  The devotee would reply: 'It is for me". Who are you? Are you the mind? Are you the
body? Are you the ego? Thus He would lead to go inwards and seek the source of all these.

He says in Atma Vidya Kirtanam, last verse:

Annamalai, the Self, the Eye behind the eye of mind which sees,
the eye and all the other senses,
which know the sky and other elements,
The Being which contains, reveals, perceives when the mind free of thought turns inward,
Annamalai appears as my own Self,
True, Grace is needed, Love is added, Bliss wells up.

In Verse 2 ibid He says:

The thought 'I am the body' is the thread
On which are strung together various thoughts.
Questing within inquiring 'Who am I?'
And whence this thought? all other thoughts
Vanish. And as I, I, within the Heart Cave
The Self shines of its own accord.
Such Self awareness is the only Heaven
This is stillness*, this abode of bliss.           

(*The stillness referred to here, is Swarupa Mounam, and not the silence of mind, words and body.

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on July 09, 2012, 09:16:39 PM
Ramana,
"Sri Ravi, can you sum up the teachings of Sri Ramakrishna in 10 or 20 verses".

Just now got to see this post!
Ramana,Essentially it is exactly the same as what Lord Jesus,the Christ has so wonderfully said:"Ask, and it shall be given you: seek, and you shall find: knock, and it shall be opened to you."
The question is- how to ask,how to seek,how to knock!
This is how Sri Ramakrishna puts it(Excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna):
Washing away the heart's impurities with tears
NEIGHTBOUR: "Sir, is it ever possible to realize God while leading the life of a
householder?"
MASTER: "Certainly. But as I said just now, one must live in holy company and pray
unceasingly. One should weep for God. When the impurities of the mind are thus washed
away, one realizes God. The mind is like a needle covered with mud, and God is like a
magnet. The needle cannot be united with the magnet unless it is free from mud. Tears
wash away the mud, which is nothing but lust, anger, greed, and other evil tendencies, and
the inclination to worldly enjoyments as well. As soon as the mud is washed away, the
magnet attracts the needle, that is to say, man realizes God. Only the pure in heart see God."

Why does the Master advocate 'Weeping'?
It means to want God above everything else,and put one's heart and soul into it.This Quickening has the Raw power to wash away all recalcitrant coverings and put one in touch with Naked Truth.Truly there is nothing more to it than this.

Namaskar.

Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on July 09, 2012, 10:39:14 PM
Thank you, Sri Ravi. That was very, very helpful to me. This is the core teaching of all true religions and all spiritual masters during ages. Thank you once again!
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on July 10, 2012, 03:54:04 PM
I am still interested about so called "Milk miracle". Is it really happened that during 90's God statues have started drinking milk all over the world? Have any of you have been witness? For me this is something extraordinary for the phenomenal world.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on July 10, 2012, 08:57:02 PM
Ramana,
The so called 'Milk Miracle' is nothing but a combination of Surface tension +Capillary action.There is nothing more to it than this.It is just that any 'God' made of porous substance can absorb a small quanity of milk over a period of time and this way 'Consume' milk offered!
People soon realized the Truth that it is not 'God' who drank the milk!
Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on July 11, 2012, 03:38:55 PM
Sri Ravi, but how can a statue to absorb so much milk? And why these statue don't "drink" milk anymore? If now I buy a statue and give it to drink milk do you think it will happen?
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on July 11, 2012, 04:18:54 PM
Dear Ramana1359,

This milk miracle happened mostly with the stone images of Ganesa. You may know that Ganesa idols have large bellies
and a trunk which is conduit.  (How did the sculptor make a conduit in stone, is a miracle, no doubt). Now as Ravi said
the milk poured on the body of the image absorbed it due to porous structure of the idol and the milk came out under
surface tension. This so called miracle carried news for some time and later it disappeared.  Any statue not made of
porous substance like china clay or porous stone, say for example glass, will not absorb or let out milk.

The true miracle came in the life of Nambi Andar Nambi. He is the compiler of all 12 Saiva Canons. He was a staunch
Ganesa devotee. When one day when his father away, mother sent him to offer naivedyam (rice with ghee and dhal)
and the child went to the temple to offer it. The child Nambi thought that Ganesa would take it. He prayed intently and
cried. Ganesa extended his trunk to the vessel and ate it fully. His father did not believe it. He beat the child Nambi. Next
day, he sent him with naivedyam and watched the proceedings from behind a pillar. He found to his horripilation that Ganesa
took the naivedyam by extending His trunk. This child prodigy, a great Saivite later compiled the 12 Saiva Canons and also
wrote tiru thoNdar thohai, a poem listing out all the 63 Saints in verses!

Miracles do happen. But the milk miracle is not a miracle.

Arunachala Siva.           
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on July 11, 2012, 05:51:41 PM
But in a movie about that I have seen hundreds and thousands of Indians going to the temples and everyone had a cup of milk. How can one little statue to "consume" and absorb so much milk? And why this does not happen now? I am to rational but I could not find answer to that.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on July 11, 2012, 06:08:59 PM
Dear Ramana1349,

It is all the miracle of porous idol absorbing the milk and oozing it out through porous holes. Thousands of vessesl of milk also
come out but rather slowly.

Arunachala Siva.  The 'miracle' did not stop. The people stopped doing it. That is all.

Arunachala Siva.   
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on July 11, 2012, 06:11:36 PM
Thank you, Sri Subramanian.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on July 12, 2012, 08:40:06 PM
Is awareness watching awareness method about which Sri Muruganar and Sri Sadhu Om talk about the same as Self-inquiry? I ask because Lord Ramana always emphasize the searching of the origin of "I-thought" as the primary purpose of Self-inquiry. So is awareness watching awareness the same in this regard?
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on July 13, 2012, 11:43:34 AM
Dear Ramana,

I do not know much about the phrase "awareness watching awaremess".  It was used by Michael Langford.

Awareness is singular, non dual. It has to be experienced by constant vigil and self attention.

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on July 13, 2012, 09:43:18 PM
As much as I understand it "awareness watching awareness" is just that - Self-attention. Is Self-attention the same as Self-inquiry? Is awareness of the Self is the same as the searching of the source of the ego? And what exactly is the purpose of Self-inquiry? To find something or just being?
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on July 17, 2012, 12:50:36 AM
                                           Upadesa Saram "Teaching Essence" by the Student of Ramesh Balsekar - Shirish Murthy

1. In the vast ocean of cause and effect, actions happen and impermanent results follow. If one takes them as 'my' actions the idea of having a free will gets stronger. This sense of personal doership gives rise to a feeling of guilt or pride and effectively blocks the spiritual understanding that everything happens according to the will of God.

2.When there is total acceptance that all actions happen purely by the will of God, and if the fruits and the consequences are accepted as His grace, the mind gets purified and attains freedom from expectations.

3. Accepting and understanding that God has created the world for His sport and God is playing the lila through billions of body-mind organisms, is better than chanting the sacred names of the Lord, which in turn is superior to worshipping the image of the Lord with body, mind and speech.

4. When there is an understanding that God himself has become the manifestation; when, by His grace, one feels His presence in the phenomenal existence one obtains the blessings of worshipping the Lord of eight-fold forms without neglecting one's responsibilities.

5. Understanding that nothing happens according to 'my' will and merely witnessing the billions of body-mind organisms act under God's will is excellent. It is superior to singing the glories of the Lord or reciting His sacred names.

6. When there is an understanding that God's will prevails all the time and witnessing happens without any 'one' to witness, it is like the stream of ghee (clarified butter) or the flow of a river. This is true meditation. It is much better than meditating with an assumption that one has free will.

7. The nondualistic approach of understanding that 'I AM' is God is far more purifying and superior than the dualistic approach of assuming the difference between God and the 'me' and struggling to be one with Him.

8. By the grace of God or the Master when one is firmly established in the 'I AM,' devoid of the thinking mind, with an impersonal knowing that there is no 'me' to get involved, that is Supreme Devotion.

9. The dissolving of the thinking mind in the Heart, purely by the grace of God or the Master, is true devotion, Yoga and understanding.

10. Through the act of regulating breath the mind is subdued, just as a bird is restrained when caught in a net. This helps in checking the involvement of the thinking mind at that moment.

11. Thought and breath have their origin in Consciousness.

12. When the mind is absorbed, in work or otherwise, and the thinking mind is not active it may be said that the mind is in control temporarily, only to become active again. When, through the deep understanding that "God is the doer and no 'one' has any control over thoughts and actions" the thinking mind is totally annihilated, then it can be said that the thinking mind in that body-mind organism is dead and only the working mind remains.

13. The thinking mind can be temporarily suspended through the control of breath. It can be annihilated only when there is total understanding that God's will prevails all the time and the different forms are only puppets having no free will of their own. With this understanding three beautiful things happen: there is no 'one' to feel guilty or proud, to get frustrated or to have a sense of enmity. Life becomes simple.
   
14. The Sage, whose thinking mind has been destroyed by the total acceptance of the fact that nothing happens unless it is the will of God, and Who rests in the 'I AM' does all the actions with the knowledge that Consciousness alone functions through the billions of body-mind organisms.

15. When the enquiry, "What is the thinking mind?" occurs, the thinking mind understands intuitively that it has no free will and stops thinking itself to be the doer and gives way to the feeling of 'I AM.' This is the Direct path.

16. In the ordinary man when a thought occurs the ego takes delivery of it as 'my thought' and gets involved. The thinking mind is nothing but the ego identifying with a thought and getting involved. In the enlightened Sage, when a thought arises, witnessing happens and involvement with the thought does not take place. Ramana Maharshi says, "The Sage has no thinking mind and therefore there are no 'others' for Him."

17. When one enquires, "Where has the 'me' come from?" it will vanish into Consciousness revealing the truth that the 'me' has really come from Totality as part of the 'divine hypnosis'. Consciousness has created the ego and Consciousness will annihilate the ego by initiating the process of Self-enquiry.

18. When we accept that God's will prevails all the time and not the individual will, the 'me' as the doer gets smaller and smaller till it gets completely merged in Consciousness.

19. When the sense of personal doership disappears with the total acceptance that "All there is, is Consciousness," the thinking mind ceases to exist during the waking hours as in deep sleep. What remains is the light of pure Consciousness, the indestructible 'I AM.'
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on July 18, 2012, 06:55:37 PM
We try to overcome passions by suppressing them and when we do inevitably this leads to some bad effects on our well-being, psychological condition, even our health. What all religions teach is not suppression but overcoming. We try over and over again but every time we fail with residual feeling of disappointment and guilt. But this is what Lord Ramana has said to all humanity:

Quote
Question: How shall I overcome my passions?

Ramana Maharshi: Find their root and then it will be easy. (Later) What are the passions? Kama (lust), krodha (anger), etc. Why do they arise? Because of likes and dislikes towards the objects seen. How do the objects project themselves in your view? Because of your avidya, i.e., ignorance. Ignorance of what? Of the Self. Thus, if you find the Self and abide therein there will be no trouble owing to the passions. (Later) Again, what is the cause of the passions? Desire to be happy or enjoy pleasure. Why does the desire for happiness arise? Because your nature is happiness itself and it is natural that you come into your own. This happiness is not found anywhere besides the Self.

Do not look for it elsewhere. But seek the Self and abide therein. Still again, that happiness which is natural is simply re-discovered, so it cannot be lost. Whereas the happiness arising from other objects are external and thus liable to be lost. Therefore it cannot be permanent and so it is not worth seeking. Moreover craving for pleasures should not be encouraged.
One cannot put out burning fire by pouring petrol over it. An attempt to satisfy your craving for the time being, so that the passion may later be suppressed, is simply foolish. There are, no doubt, other methods for the suppression of passion. They are (1) regulated food, (2) fasting, (3) yoga practice, (4) medicines. But their effects are transitory. The passions reappear with greater force as soon as the check is removed. The only way to overcome them is to eradicate them. That is done by finding their source as stated above.

Yoga teachers teach that we must eat particular quantity of food, prepared by particular way, to make breathing exercises, to do yoga asanas, to conserve any drop of semen at all cost, to speak only truth and so on. Lord Ramana does not reject that but compassionately He prescribes other recipe and explain throughoutly why. This is what the Lord says:

Quote
Question: If a person is engaged in work, there will be little time left for him to meditate.

Ramana Maharshi:  Setting apart time for meditation is only for the merest spiritual novices. A man who is advancing will begin to enjoy the deeper beatitude whether he is at work or not. While his hands are in society, he keeps his head cool in solitude.

Question: Then you do not teach the way of yoga?

Ramana Maharshi:  The yogi tries to drive his mind to the goal, as a cowherd drives a bull with a stick, but on this path the seeker coaxes the bull by holding out a handful of grass.

Question: How is that done?

Ramana Maharshi:  You have to ask yourself the question “Who am I?”. This investigation will lead in the end to the discovery of something within you which is behind the mind. Solve that great problem and you will solve all other problems.
And the most relevant saying of Lord Ramana which everyone must know and must not forget is:
Quote

Therefore Realization is for everyone; Realization makes no difference between the aspirants.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on July 18, 2012, 07:46:07 PM
Dear Ramana,

Sri Bhagavan says about suddha manas, pure mind, sattvic mind in Guru Vachaka kovai. This sattvic mind is the most
essential requisite for Sadhana, particularly Self Inquiry.  He has said unless one develops a Sattvic mind, without
anger, lust, greed, jealousy, fear, and a barrage of thoughts - one cannot succeed in self inquiry. In some other places,
He said that the meditation or even puja is a fight for a person who has no control over mind. Because as you sit
for meditation, so many thoughts will bombard your mind. If you sit for pujas, even a telephone ringing or someone tapping
the door, will cause you disturbance.

The first thing therefore is to develop sattvic mind, unalloyed by thoughts. This Sattvic mind need not be controlled at all.
Because sattvic mind has no thoughts, it is suddha mind. It is just an entity, that is all, like the orb of the moon in the noontime
where the Sun is bright and scorching. The moon may be visible but it is of no use. Because Sun (Atma) takes care of the
self inquiry.

In 108 Holy Names of Sri Bhagavan there is one Name:

Om sOnachala mahOleena mAnasAya Namah |

One who whose mind is merged with the lustrous brilliance of the Sonachalam (Arunachala) |

This is possible only with a pure mind, for which no further control is necessary.  Pure Mind is Suddha Maya. This
Pure Mind only takes you to the Self, as a mother (Maya, the goddess) takes her son to father (Arunachala)
with some recommendations!

Arunachala Siva.         
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on July 18, 2012, 08:09:42 PM
Yes, I agree. Pure mind is prerequisite for most efficient Self-inquiry. Everything must be done step by step according to our own pace. The key is the harmony and balance. That is what I feel is the message of Lord Ramana.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on July 18, 2012, 08:31:42 PM
Quote
This sattvic mind is the most essential requisite for Sadhana, particularly Self Inquiry.

Quote
He has said unless one develops a Sattvic mind, without anger, lust, greed, jealousy, fear, and a barrage of thoughts - one cannot succeed in self inquiry.

Please, can you give us the exact words of Lord Ramana. I ask because I have been left with the conviction that the purpose of Self-inquiry is realizing the Self, just as eliminating all rajasic, tamasic and eventually sattvic qualities of mind. So if you wait to do Self-inquiry when all these qualities are annihilated then for most people this means to do not Self-inquiry at all. Of course suddha manas is best for more efficient Self-inquiry but is not prerequisite for doing Self-inquiry generally I think. I have never seen such thing from what I have read. So please elaborate your statement.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on July 19, 2012, 01:35:08 PM
Dear ramana,

The exact place where Sri Bhagavan had said this, I have to search for the book. But I recently heard one of Nochur Venkataraman's
discourse (I think it is Atma Vidya Kirtanam) where he has also mentioned this. Sattva has two aspects. One is along with rajasic
and tamasic that we already known. In this Sattva should be kept up in the beginning of self inquiry, and upon progress in Self
enquiry, one should jettison this too and that state is called Suddha Sattva state.

Talks No. 485:
............
............
In the course of conversation Sri Bhagavan continued: The mind is something mysterious. It consists of satva, rajas and tamas.
The latter two give rise to vikshepa. In the sattva aspect, it remains pure and uncontaminated. So there are no thoughts there
and it is identical with the Self. The mind is like Akasa (ether). Just as there are the objects in the akasa, so there are thoughts
in the mind...........
...............

Again people often ask how the mind is controlled. I say to them, 'Show me the mind and then you will know what to do."
The fact is the mind is only a bundle of thoughts. How can you extinguish it by the thought of doing do or by a desire? Your
thoughts and desires are part and parcel of the mind. The mind is simply fattened by the thoughts rising up. .... The only way
of doing it is to find its source and hold on to it. The mind will then fade away of its own accord. Yoga teaches chitta vritti nirodha
(control of activities of the mind). But I say Atma Vichara. This is the practical way....Dhyana, bhakti, japa etc., are aids to keep out
the multiplicity of thoughts. A single thought prevails which too eventually dissolves in the Self. 

Talks 91:

The sattvic mind is free from thoughts whereas rajasic mind is full of them. The sattvic mind resolve itself into the Life Current.

 
Arunachala Siva. 
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on July 19, 2012, 02:21:32 PM
Dear ramana,

In the same topic, Sri Bhagavan says in Pancharatnam, Verse 3:

He whose pure mind turned inward searches
Whence this 'I' arises knows
The Self aright and merges in You
Aruna Hill
As a river in the sea.

Thus Sri Bhagavan mentions the pure mind for the inward search.

Again, only the pure mind can dive deep within. Hence Sri Bhagavan says in Verse 28 of Ulladu Narpadu, where He
describes the method of sadhana as - controlling speech and breath, and diving deep within oneself - like one who,
to find a thing that has fallen into water, dives deep down, - one must seek out the source whence the aspiring ego springs.

Arunachala Siva. 
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on July 19, 2012, 02:31:06 PM
But did not Bhagavan prescribed Self-inquiry to everyone? If only people with pure mind can do it then why He so vigorously recommended it to all who invited Him? Isn't part of the purpose of Self-inquiry reduction of vasanas and achieving suddha manas? So it seems illogical to me that He says that the two practical methods for realization are Self-inquiry (primary) and Complete surrender and at the same time to say that only people with suddha manas can do Self-inquiry.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on July 19, 2012, 02:39:55 PM
Dear ramana,

We can see this part in Upadesa Manjari (Spiritual Instruction in English translation):
The questioner in this entire work is Natananada:
 
Chapter III - Anubhava - Experience:

Q: 7: What is the authority for saying that Brahman can be apprehended by the mind and at the same time that it
cannot be apprehended by the mind?

Bhagavan: It cannot be apprehended by the impure mind but can be apprehended by the pure mind.

Q 8: What is pure mind and what is impure mind?

Bhagavan: When the indefinable power of Brahman separates itself from Brahman and in union with the reflection of
consciousness, (chidabhasa) assumes various forms, it is called the Impure Mind. When it becomes free from the reflection
of consciousness (abhasa)  through discrimination, it is called the Pure Mind. .......

Arunachala Siva.     
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on July 19, 2012, 02:47:20 PM
I agree but how can an impure mind become pure? Isn't part of the purpose of Self-inquiry exactly that?! Is that why you have not chosen Self-inquiry as preferred method?
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on July 19, 2012, 05:55:49 PM
The most protuberant difference between the philosophy of the East and West is what is our "relation" with the world and others. The western world teaches that we are a product of the world - the world gives us the body and brain by which we can experience it. The eastern world says NO! The world and everything springs from you and dissolves in you, the world and its objects have no independent existence. But Lord Ramana says: You are the world and its objects, everything. Actually you only exist as Pure Consciousness which is the Self. Realize the Self and all duality will collapse. There is no anything to which you have relation to.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on July 19, 2012, 08:27:05 PM
Dear ramana 1359,

I typed out a detailed reply for you in the areas of discussion. But before the post was posted, came the power cut
which lasted for 4 hours and everything was lost.

However, I shall give you the summary of teachings/conversation, their brief particulars which you may go through.
I shall repeat my detailed reply after some time.

1. Upadesa Manjari - Spiritual Instruction, Chapter II - where there is mention by Sri Bhagavan about path of inquiry.

2.Upadesa Manjari- later in answer 4 about the state  of  being still, which involves efforts and why there is a slip.

3. Upadesa Manjari - Part III answer 8 - about pure and impure mind.

4. Vichara Sanghraham - Self Inquiry in English - Answer to Question 11.

5. Talks No,. 290 that runs to more than 3 pages.

6. Tallks Nos. 173,  230 and 289.

7. Atma Bodha - Verse 1 - Sri Bhagavan's translation.

Self Inquiry is towards attaining the Self. The making of an impure mind into pure mind is called chitta suddhi. This is
a precursor for sadhakas who are not ripe for self inquiry directly. Self Inquiry presupposes chitta suddhi.

Though Sri Bhagavan recommended Self Inquriy to all the devotees, for some devotees, He recommended japa, dhyana,
yoga etc., first only for the sake of attaining chitta suddhi. For some other devotees, He recommended Saranagati also.
His main plank was Self Inquiry but prescriptions were different for different devotees depending on their maturities.

Arunachala Siva.           
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on July 19, 2012, 09:27:22 PM
Bhagavan says that pure mind is to be free of reflections. But what does that mean? Realization of the unreality of the objects as different entities. Mind must discriminate and realize that these are just "reflections" of the Self. But this is almost the final step prior the Realization. Does that mean all sadhakas must first go there for starting Self-inquiry? If Self-inquiry is prescribed only then then what other methods should people practice? This somehow ruins the common belief that Self-inquiry is fastest way to Realization and is open to everyone. And it sounds contrary to the Bhagavan's instructions like "Find the seer", "Find the doubter", "Find the sufferer" and so on and His words that Self-realization is for everyone. and many members here like Sri Udai,  Sri Nagaraj etc as I know have practiced Self-inquiry. Were they losing their time or they are more pure than others? These questions are not provocative but very earnest and in my opinion very important for EVERY member in this forum and all forums dedicated to Lord Ramana.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Ravi.N on July 20, 2012, 08:02:28 AM
Ramana,
"This somehow ruins the common belief that Self-inquiry is fastest way to Realization and is open to everyone."
Sri Bhagavan has mentioned that Self enquiry is the direct path but he never mentioned that it is the fastest way.
It is quite clear that no 'one approach' is superior to others or suitable for one and all.Nor can it be said that one has to pursue a path exclusively to others.

Sri Ramakrishna says:"God cannot be realized if there is the slightest attachment to the things of the world. A
thread cannot pass through the eye of a needle if the tiniest fibre sticks out."

All sadhana is to gather the dispersed strands of the mind and make it 'enter the eye of the needle'
sadhana is done by the mind for the dissolution or resolution of the mind and realize the ever present Truth.

This is more like Flowering than a Running race to a Goal.There is no short cut or fastest way.

Namaskar.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on July 20, 2012, 11:45:17 AM
Dear Ravi and ramana,

I read your posts. In fact, this strange impression that self inquiry does not need any preparatory chitta suddhi and it is
a fast track for salvation, was the reason for the birth of neo advaita group, in UK and US, where the members believe
that one can do anything, but if one can do a little bit of self inquiry (?) one can attain salvation!  It is like reading e-books
and getting e-Self!

The Self Inquiry as Sri Bhagavan says is for ripe souls, with crystal like pure mind. It is not for everyone. To get that
state of crystal like pure mind, one should develop dispassion towards so many things in the world.  Sri Bhagavan
repeatedly says, amala madhi, koorntha madhi, nichala chintai etc., in His teachings.

Arunachala Siva.
 
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on July 20, 2012, 12:50:52 PM
Dear Ravi,

I like the example of Flowering. To get a flower from a plant, our job does not simply involve only placing a sapling on
the soil. One has to first see the soil suitability, whether necessary sunshine is there, fertilizers if need be, then suitable
protection from cows and goats which eat the leaves of the plant. After that one has to water that sapling carefully
at suitable intervals.

After ensuring all these, one has to place a seed under the soil,   And so is with Self Inquiry.

Arunachala Siva.
       
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on July 20, 2012, 03:17:08 PM
Thank you for your replies.

But seemingly you didn't understand me fully.
Quote
I read your posts. In fact, this strange impression that self inquiry does not need any preparatory chitta suddhi and it is
a fast track for salvation, was the reason for the birth of neo advaita group, in UK and US, where the members believe
that one can do anything, but if one can do a little bit of self inquiry (?) one can attain salvation!  It is like reading e-books
and getting e-Self!

Nobody has said that! My point was that not-doing Self inquiry because we are impure sounds to me the same as "I am not praying and chanting and repeating God's Name because I am impure". If we are pure we would not need any sadhana. Isn't the purpose of the spiritual practice exactly that - purifying our mind and finally Realizing its Source. So telling that Self-inquiry is for some "super humans" doesn't sound very right for me.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on July 20, 2012, 03:36:43 PM
Dear ramana,

I want to give some simpler examples. Before we get into a Hindu temple. ( I am not sure about the churches and mosques),
are we not taking finishing our bath, dressed as per requirement, wear vibhuti and kumkum or trisuranam, (for Vaishnava temples)
and then proceed to the temple? Even inside the temple, we can get God's grace only when our thoughts are on God and not on
the scooter that you had parked outside on a no-parking zone, is it not? So is the case with self inquiry. One has to develop purity
of mind (Sri Bhagavan calls one pointed mind as chitta suddhi) and then do self inquiry for ensuring success. As someone said,
it is a direct path, but it is not a fast path. Even here one needs some preparation and proceed steadily and slowly.

Sri Bhagavan explains the method of self inquiry in Verse 28 of Ulladu Narpadu and the meaning runs as follows:


In the same way as one would dive deep into water, retaining breath and speech, to recover an article fallen into water,
one, with a firm resolve to find out the source whence the ego as 'I' rises, restraining thoughts and breath, diving deep
with a sharp and single pointed mind into the Heart, should know the most subtle form of Awareness, the Self.

Here single pointed mind, one can acquire only with purity of mind. Otherwise the mind with scattered thoughts can
investigate into the source of 'I' thought into the Heart.

Again the translation of Verse 3 of Pancharatnam, runs as follows:

Inquiring within whence the 'I' arises, with inward turned PURE, SATTVIC, BLEMISHLESS MIND, single pointedly sharp, and
ascertaining the truth of this 'I' undoubtedly, know that it, like a river losing its form on joining the ocean, will lose itself
to merge in Thee, Arunachala! On inquiry, everything subsides in Thee alone.

A sharp inward-turned mind alone can engage itself in meaningful Self Inquiry. Sharpness is gained when it is single
pointed to the exclusion of everything else. The truth of Jiva bodha, when known by such a pure mind what remains is
Thy Real Form.

Arunachala Siva.               
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on July 20, 2012, 03:42:44 PM
Then let's give more clear explanation of what "pure mind" is? Please, elaborate the Bhagavan's quote you gave in some of you previous posts.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on July 20, 2012, 04:32:41 PM
Dear ramana 1359:

Talks No.  322;

..............

Devotee: I meant to say that it (mind) is always changing, even when we do our Japa.

Maharshi: Japa is meant only for stilling the mind.

Devotee: What Japa is good for it?

Maharshi: Anything suitable, such as Gayatri.

Devotee: Will Gayatri do?

Maharshi: Can anything excel it? Only those who cannot do it look for others. It contains the whole range of truth
in it. Chanting (Japa) will lead to meditation and it is the means for realizing the Self.

............

Talks No. 323:

........

Maharshi: 'I-thought' and 'this' thought are both emanations from the same light. They are related to rajoguna and tamoguna
respectively. In order to have the Reflected Light (pure sattva) free from rajas and tamas, it must shine forth as I-I unbroken
by this 'this' thought. .....This is the only passage to Realization of the Self as Supreme Being.

Upadesa Manjari:

Answer 5: All practices are followed only with the object of concentrating the mind. As all the mental activities like remembering,
forgetting, desiring, hating, attracting, discarding etc., are modifications of the mind and they cannot be one's true state. Simple
changeless being is one's true nature. Therefore to know the truth of one's being and to be it, is known as release from bondage
and the destruction of the knot (granthi nasam). Until this state of tranquility of mind is firmly attained, the practice of unswerving
abidance in the Self and keeping the mind unsoiled by various thoughts is essential for an aspirant.       

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on July 20, 2012, 04:53:56 PM
Dear ramana 1359,

See this teachings in Upadesa Manjari - Ch, III,

Q 7: What is the authority for saying that Brahman can be apprehended by the mind and at the same time that it
cannot be apprehended by the mind?

A: It cannot be apprehended by the impure mind but can be apprehended by the pure mind.

Q 8. What is pure mind and what is impure mind?

A: When the indefinable power of Brahman separates itself from Brahman, and, in union with the reflected consciousness,
Chidabhasa, assumes various forms, it is called impure mind. When it becomes free from the reflection of consciousness
(abhasa) through discrimination, it is is called the Pure Mind. Its state of union with the Brahman is its apprehension of
Brahman. The energy which is accompanied by the reflection of consciousness is called the impure mind and its sepraration
from Brahman is called non apprehension of mind.

(Here the energy is Sakti or Maya, which causes all worldly activities. She is called Suddha Maya when with Brahman and is called
Asuddha Maya when in separation from Brahman. Maya plays both the roles. See Lalita Sahasranamam and Sri Devi Mahatmyam.
She is in the form of anger, lust, hunger, thirst, jealousy, hatred etc., When asuddha (impurities) is removed she is suddha maya.
Vidya-avidya rupini says Sahasranamam.)

Arunachala Siva,       
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on July 20, 2012, 04:55:26 PM
Sri Subramanian, I want ask you that way - if you have to explain me with your own words what pure mind is, how would you do it? What change should I "expect"?
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on July 20, 2012, 06:18:26 PM
Dear ramana,

Now you want them in my own words! You are not happy about what Sri Bhagavan said:

I am telling you from my experience. Whenever I believe that a thought is impure, I meditate on Sri Bhagavan to help me
away from that thought, thought like an erring friend with whom I am angry, thought about someone who does not like
me and speak ill of me, hatred, thoughts about money, seeking more money from my son, greed, thoughts about some
minor mistakes done by my wife, say once she missed her specs and we had to return more than 10 kms to reach home
to take that specs, I became angry for a few second, but before that anger could set in as some ill words, I controlled it
by saying Arunachala Siva, Arunachala Siva...

If you are working in an office, such incidents would be more. In each case, whenever there is jealousy (some one else getting
promotion when you had expected it for you), or whenever anger (some junior making a mistake or some senior shouting at]
you for a mistake not done by you), whenever there is hatred (someone makes fun of your dress style, or your old car), and lust
(opportunities are plenty in an office, where there would be many beautiful girls), -- you should make efforts to subside these
emotions which will make your mind more and more impure. This is the patient and effort full way to overcome impure mind.

All these are due to Maya, asuddha maya, who plays with you. You say, Amma, don't play with me, I shall have to join
you dear husband, Sivam, in this birth itself through self inquiry. Please leave your acting in my life. Show yourself as
Suddha Maya and direct me to your husband.

If you very much like cigaratees or liquor or ice cream, keep away from them for one month and try. This will give you
develop vairagyam, dispassion and proceed towards other nobler things in life. 

These are some tips for trying to get pure mind and removing the vasnanas one by one.           
There could be many more like these.\

Arunachala Siva.
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on July 20, 2012, 06:34:08 PM

Quote
Now you want them in my own words! You are not happy about what Sri Bhagavan said

I don't know why you have got the impression that I am not happy about what Sri Ramana said. In these quotes you gave Sri Bhagavan did not explain practically what pure is in particular. That's why I asked for explanation.

Thank you!
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Subramanian.R on July 20, 2012, 06:44:51 PM
Dear ramana 1359,

One thing I can assure you, ramana is: In case you are not able to over come the impurities by your own efforts, seek Sri
Bhagavan's Grace. Seek His karuna kataksham, eye of mercy. Have total faith in Him. Even Jesus's life, only the lame who
got faith in His words could get up. Because His words came from Truth. He was Truth personified.  That is why, even
Lazarus came out of death. Is it not?

Have total faith in Guru or God whenever there is problem in these matters. He is sure to help.  "Those who labor and are
heavy laden, come unto Me, I shall give thee rest. - said Jesus.

Saint Manikkavachagar says: My eyes are like wood pieces. My ears are made of iron bars. How can I see you? How
can I listen to your devotees's sweet songs adoring you. My mind is like a old withered tree. How can I use my mind
to sing about you. You come yourself and life me up. 

This state is true in our cases too.

Arunachala Siva.         
Title: Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
Post by: Hari on July 20, 2012, 06:59:39 PM
Now I realize one thing which is very difficult to overcome - sex. Let say I am married or I have a serious girlfiend. How can I stop having sex? Even if I don't want sex, my wife has her needs. I doubt that in 21 century there are much women that would live with their husbands if they don't satisfy their sexual desires. So how