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Messages - Subramanian.R

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General Discussion / Re: my musings
« on: March 20, 2013, 06:49:16 PM »
Dear Nagaraj,

Sri Bhagavan has said that the self inquiry itself contains sravana, manana and nidihdhysana. See Sadhu Om's Path of Ramana,
where this has been  clarified. Sri Bhagavan did not ignore the conventional steps. 

Again as regards nayana diksha, Karuna Kataksham,   Sri Sankara has mentioned this in Viveka  Chudamani.

Arunachala Siva. 


Dear atmavichar100.

Sri Bhagavan Himself has said that Self Inquiry itself contains antra-saravanan, antra mananam and antra nididhyasanam
Sri Bhagavan did not ignore these formal stages.

Arunachala Siva.   

Dear Tusnim,

What Sri Bhagavan referred to was permanent irreversible thoughtless state. Egoless state - permanent.  Simple thoughtless
state will only a glimpse of the Self. Only permanent egoless state helps in abidance in Self.

In Vivekachudamani, Sri Sankara uses the phrase Nayana Kataksham.

Arunachala Siva.   

General Discussion / Re: Blue Cliff Records
« on: March 20, 2013, 05:15:54 PM »
Secrets of Blue Cliff Records, as explained by Tankei and Hakuin:

From Tenkei, on “clarity.”

Clarity refers to the realm of enlightenment. Old Joshu does not remain within delusion or enlightenment, ordinary or holy. Do you preserve anything is a teacher’s “fishing word.” He talks about not remaining in clarity as a place where there are no traces, speaking of it as if there actually were something there, showing a seam to hook a student’s gap. This is what is called a Zen master’s manipulation of emptiness.


Hakuin on “clarity.”

Since you do not remain within clarity—If you abide in clarity, you need to preserve it, but if you do not remain in clarity, there’s nothing to preserve, is there? Since you don’t know—Here we can see this monk has no eyes. Why do you say you do not remain in clarity—Greedily gazing at the moon in the sky, he loses the pearl in the palm of his hand. You’ve posed the question—Isn’t that just like Joshu! “You’re a persistent fellow! When you’ve had enough fooling around, scram!” This is scary verbal Zen: “Setting his strategy in motion from within his tent, he assures victory a thousand miles away.”


Finally, Tenkei on the “Way.”

The way implies passage; it means that asses pass, horses pass, all beings equally pass without obstruction. But what is the supreme way spoken of here? Humans and angels are vertical, animals are horizontal, mountains are high, oceans are wide; east, west, south, north, the highway to the capital, the unique straight open road to the ultimate, the single path to the gate of nirvana taken by the blessed ones of the ten directions; there is no other way at all.


I think there are three key phrases or words in this koan.

Picking and choosing


Do you still preserve?

And I think these three phrases are metaphors for

The discriminating mind

The Unborn




When these phrases are substituted the koan looks like this,

Chao-chou, teaching the assembly, said, “The Ultimate Path is without difficulty; just avoid the discriminating mind. As soon as there are words spoken, “this is the discriminating mind,” “this is the Unborn.” This old monk does not abide in the Unborn; are you still attached to anything or not?”

At that time a certain monk asked, “Since you do not abide in the Unborn, what are you attached to?”

Chao-chou replied, “I neither attach to the Unborn or to the discriminating mind.”

The monk said, “Since you are attached to neither, Teacher, why do you nevertheless say that you do not abide in the Unborn?

Chao-chou said, “It is enough to ask about the matter; bow and withdraw.”

The monk’s first question baits Chao-chou with the implication that if he isn’t attached to the Unborn he must therefore be attached to the discriminating mind.

Chao-chou denies this.

Then in his follow-up question, the monk claims that Chao-chou must therefore be attached to non-attachment.

Chao-chou having had enough of the monk’s word game and dismisses him.

This takes us back to the original teaching of Chao-chou, “As soon as there are words spoken…” Words are metaphors. They are not the thing. Words are neither the Unborn, the discriminating mind, clarity, or attachment. Words are our attempts to describe a situation—a conflation of events. But they are not the events. When we use words we realize that they are tools. They are indicators. They are the finger pointing to the moon. Holding on to the words can trap us. They can wrap around our thoughts and feelings. They can screw up whatever teachings we are seeking to express. Nevertheless we use words. We don’t cut off the finger. We do live in the discriminating world of mind. The Unborn is not apart from the world of discrimination. Picking and choosing is actually the world of the Unborn as well as the world of discrimination. For the Unborn is inextricably woven in the world of discrimination. Back to the “Heart Sutra.” Form is emptiness. Emptiness is precisely form.

Tenkei’s beautiful quote on the Way or Path says it all. How do you manage to live in the world of discrimination and somehow at the same time live in the world of the Unborn? How do you live in the world of form and at the same time in the world of emptiness? How do you live in an imperfect world and at the same time in the world of perfection? How do you follow the “ultimate Path?” when you are on the path of discrimination?

Tenkei tells us that the path, or way is simply a passage. And asses, horses, and all beings make the pass without a problem. It doesn’t matter if we’re humans or angels. If we’re vertical or horizontal, high or low, east, west, north, or south. We make the pass from wherever we are. Because, thank the Buddha, form is emptiness and emptiness is form. And in ways we cannot possibly understand, whatever we do in the world of form affects the world of emptiness.

When we bow to one another, we bow to the moon and the stars. When we speak kindly to one another we embrace the universe. When we say a harsh word to one another we wound the furthest star. For whatever path we’re on is the way to the ultimate. So let us tread lightly. With dignity. With loving-kindness. Then we are one. Then we are not one not two.

And so what is the teaching of this koan? Here are some suggestions.

This is picking and choosing

This is enlightenment

This is clarity

This is not-knowing

This is form

This is emptiness

This is not picking and choosing

This is not enlightenment

This is not not-knowing

This is not form

This is not emptiness

What is This?

Chao-chou, teaching the assembly, said, “The Ultimate Path is without difficulty; just avoid picking and choosing. As soon as there are words spoken, “this is picking and choosing, “ “this is clarity.” This old monk does not abide within clarity; do you still preserve anything or not?”


Arunachala Siva.

General Discussion / Re: Gateless Gate/
« on: March 20, 2013, 05:06:58 PM »

The Buddha’s Flower
Once when the World-Honoured One, in ancient times, was upon Mount Grdhrakuta, he held up a flower before the congregation of monks. At this time all were silent, but the Venerable Kasyapa only smiled. The World-Honoured One said, “I have the Eye of the True Law, the secret Essence of Nirvana, the Formless Form, the Mysterious Law-Gate. Without relying upon words and letters, beyond all teaching as a special transmission, I pass all this on to Mahakasyapa.

The Commentary

Golden-faced Kudon impudently forced the good people into depravity. Advertising sheep’s heads, he sells dog-flesh,- but with some genius. However, supposing that at the time all the monks had laughed, how would the “all-including eye of the absolute truth” have been handed on? Or if Kasyapa had not smiled, how would it have been handed? If you say, it can (anyway) be handed on, that’s the Golden-faced Old Huckster with his loud voice swindling at the town-gate. If you say it can’t, why did Buddha say he had handed it on to Kasyapa?

The Verse

Holding up a flower,
The snake shows his tail.
Kasyapa smiles,
The monks don’t know what to do.

As translated by R.H. Blyth


Arunachala Siva.

General Discussion / Re: Lao Tzu - TAO TE CHING
« on: March 20, 2013, 05:03:37 PM »
I - IV.

The Way is full: use won’t empty it.

Deep is the matrix of the myriad creatures.

Blunt the sharp:

Loosen the knots:

Dim the glare:

Follow old tracks.

Shadowy, it seems hardly there.

I don’t know whose child it is.

It seems like the ancestral form.

Arunachala Siva.

What is chitta vritti nirodham?  Being thoughtless. The thoughts come from mind/ego. If one does chttavritti nirodham, he becomes
egoless. Egoless state is Mukti.  Because the egoless state, pushes the mind back to the Self and that is Self realization.

Arunachala Siva.   

Dear Krishnan,

This cloning theory is really funny and is painful too. Sri Sankara was strictly followed by his four disciples and are they clones
to Sankara? The four Sanakadhi rishis followed the teachings of Sri Dakshinamurti in toto and are they clones?  Tirukachi nambi
and Sri Ramanuja followed the same teachings and philosophy of qualified non dualism.  Are they clones.  They are all faithful
disciples to the first one and that is all.

Down the time line, S.S. Cohen, Chadwick, Laskhamana Sarma, Arthur Osborne, Kunju Swami, Viswanatha Swami. Suri Nagamma,
Kanakammal, V. Ganesan, have strictly followed the teachings of Sri Bhagavan. Are they all clones?  Tinnai Swami received one
word Iru and stayed put in t'malai for three decades only contemplating on the Self. Is he a clone?

Arunachala Siva.   

General Discussion / Re: Divine poetry and thoughts
« on: March 20, 2013, 03:49:03 PM »

Dear Jewell,

Nice. And also nice to see you back after some small break.

Here is one from Basavesvara:

How can I feel right
  about a god who eats up lacquer and melts
  who wilts when he sees fire?

How can I feel right
 about gods you sell in your need
 and gods you bury for fear of thieves?

The Lord of the meeting rivers,
self born, one with himself

He alone is true God.


Arunachala Siva.


Sri Bhagavan to prove the world that He is not different from Sri Sankara in His teachings, has rendered Atma Bodham,
Sri Dakshinamurti Stotram, Sri Guru Stuti and Hastamalakam in Tamizh verses.  And again Vivekachudmani in lucid Tamizh

He has said in one of the introductory verses has said: That same Sankara is now in my Heart and made me to render this
in Tamizh.

Arunachala Siva.

General Discussion / Re: my musings
« on: March 20, 2013, 01:44:37 PM »
Saint Tayumanavar - kal Alin  (Stone Banyan Tree)

வேறுபடுஞ் சமயமெல்லாம் புகுந்து பார்க்கின்
      விளங்குபரம் பொருளேநின் விளையாட் டல்லால்
மாறுபடுங் கருத்தில்லை முடிவில் மோன
      வாரிதியில் நதித்திரள்போல் வயங்கிற் றம்மா. 25.

If one investigates into all differing religions, O the Supreme Substance, it is all your sports and there is no
differing opinions in the essence. All religions like rivers merge into you, the great Ocean!

Arunachala Siva,

General Discussion / Re: Zen Koans
« on: March 20, 2013, 01:36:02 PM »
Tipping Over a Water Vase:

Hyakujo wished to send a monk to open a monastery. He told his pupils that whoever answered a question most ably would
be appointed. Placing a water vase on the ground, he asked, 'Who can say this is without calling its name?'

The chief monk: No one can call it a wooden shoe.'

Isan the cooking monk, tipped over the vase  with his foot and went out.

Hyakujo smiled and said; The Chief Monk loses and isan became the master of the new monastery.

Mumon's comments:

Isan was brave enough, but he could not escape Hyakujo's trick.  After all, he gave up a light job and took a heavy one.
Why, can't you see, he took  off his comfortable hat and placed himself in iron socks.

Giving up cooking utensils
Defeating the chatterbox,
Though his teacher sets a barrier for him
His feet will tip over everything,
even the Buddha.


Arunachala Siva.       

General Discussion / Re: Zen books
« on: March 20, 2013, 01:26:10 PM »

PrajnA pAramita Sutra:

PrajnA = Sambodhi = SarvajnatA:


When Bodhi (enlightenment) is thus described with further identifications the result may appear somewhat confusing,
and further remarks will be made on these later on. as far as the characterization itself is concerned, it is bodily transferable
to PrajnA and we can say this: that the PrajnA is seeing into the essence of things as they are (yathAbhutam); that the PrajnA
is seeing things as in their nature empty; that the thus seeing things is to reach the limit of Reality.  i.e. to pass beyond the realm
of the human understanding; that, therefore, the PrajnA is grasping the ungraspable, attaining the unattainable, comprehending the
incomprehensible; that when this intellectual description of the working of the PrajnA is translated into psychological terms, it is not
becoming attached to anything  whether it is an idea or feeling.

We read in the Devaparavarta of the AshtAhasrikA prajnApAramitA:  Those who have first taken up the practice of the Prajna
should practice all the six PAramitAs in such a way as to turn all the merit thereby gained to the realization of enlightenment.
To do this, however they should never cling to (parAmriksha) to enlightenment as the goal of their exercises nor to the five Skandhas
as irreducible individual realities. For all knowledge (SarvajnatA) is something beyond grasp.

Beyond grasp means not being attached.  The Unattainable and Unthinkable being the nature of the PrajnA, the Bodhisattva who has
regained its original function will naturally have no attachment even to PrajnA, SarvajnatA or Sambodhi.

This is an important phase in the life of the Bodhisattva.


Arunachala Siva.               

General topics / Re: Quotes of Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj
« on: March 20, 2013, 01:09:33 PM »

Q:  I am not obviously, all pervading and eternal. I am only here and now.

NM:  Good enough.  The 'here' is everywhere and the 'now' is there always. Go beyond 'I am the body' idea and you will find
that space and time are in you and not you in space and time. Once you have understood this, the main obstacles to realization
is removed.


Arunachala Siva.

General topics / Re: Marula Muniya Kagga:
« on: March 20, 2013, 12:53:08 PM »
World Machine:


The wheels and joints of the world machine may sometimes shake
The seeds of regression may sometimes lie hiding in the fruit of progress
The deceptive three gunas are ingrained in human nature
And therefore, we can't escape suffering.


The creeper that does not rise up and spread on the trellis above
Bites the dust and fails to yield flowers and fruits and likewise
The weak human being who does not seek the God with forms
Wails like an orphan.


Can the earth remain steady when the sun and moon tremble?
Don't the body and mind of man become unsteady then?
Heaven and earth function like bolts to each other
Their movements are sometimes correct and sometimes incorrect.

You are a bird tied to a tree with the string of past karma
You jump, ho? pull and struggle to free yourself
when you pull with all the strength of your sides
Even the string of steel would break.


Where is interlude in time, where is leisure in creation?
Is there a single moment without these eight,
Births and deaths, happiness and sorrow, fortunes and
misfortunes, desire and endeavor?


Arunachala Siva.     

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