Author Topic: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough  (Read 373681 times)

Subramanian.R

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #105 on: November 02, 2010, 01:35:47 PM »



Dear srkudai,

This has been explained by me, many times in the past.

Sri Ramana Reminiscences, G.V. Subbaramaiah:

Bhagavan:  And if it is held that a man cannot be considered a Jnani
so long as he performs action in the world [ and action is impossible
without the mind], then not only the great sages who carried on
various kinds of work after attaining Jnana must not be considered
as Jnanis, but the gods also, and Iswara himself, since he continues
looking after the world.  The fact that any amount of action can be
performed, and performed quite well, by the Jnani without his identifying himself with it in any way or ever imagining that he is a doer.  Some Power acts through his body to get the work done.

Saiva Siddhantam calls it Suddha Manas or Suddha Maya, the power
that acts from within a Jnani.

The same truth is described by Muruganar in his verses, 924,
1139 and 1149 of GVK. 

Dear prasanth,

You say you agree with udai garu 100%.  How is it agreeable
to you? Can you kindly explain?



Arunachala Siva.           

srkudai

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #106 on: November 02, 2010, 04:50:31 PM »
Suddha Manas means there is a mind which is highly purified. in which there is no kartutva or doership.
Thats nice and perfect.
But that means we do not need thought elimination.

i agree with this idea.

but on one side you say its suddha manas and again you would say thought need to be eliminated.
suddha manas is mind with toughts.if no thoughts are there, its not mind--- but then u cannot function in the world.so, there are thoughts. but there is no ego to own up those thoughts ...
when mind is quiet, there is no ego to say "i am quiet" and when mind is agitated, there is no ego to say "i am agitated"
that is suddha manas. though, when there is no such "I", there wont be agitation :).

thought elimination is different.

prasanth_ramana_maharshi

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #107 on: November 02, 2010, 04:58:37 PM »

I am thoughtless : As Consciousness I am ever thoughtless. The moment i identify with mind, there is a thought for me.

Since I am not mind, even when mind has thoughts, i do not.

Again, become thoughtless need not mean one has to remove thoughts, one has to be the Source of thoughts and hence not own up thoughts. just as my thoughts do not belong to you, your own thoughts are not owned by you, you being Consciousness.

Dear Subramanian garu,

I agree with udai garu's views regarding thoughtless state.


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amiatall

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #108 on: November 03, 2010, 12:15:06 AM »
Regarding body - pain of the body is, the suffer is no more. Body functioning has nothing to do with jnana. Nor we should care and discuss it.

Subramanian.R

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #109 on: November 03, 2010, 08:30:06 AM »



Dear amiatall,

The whole discussion, as you might have known from the thread,
came up,  because of our understanding of the body-less state.
Most of Ramana devotees know about egoless state, because it
is there in His direct teachings.  He did not mention in detail about
the body-less state.  The body-less state is not "non-existence of
the body", but the state of "not identifying with the body".   This
comes about not immediately when one controls the ego.  It takes
much longer time than one's achievement of egoless state.
Many Jnanis who have conquered their ego, have wept, wailed and
cried when their body was suffering due to pain and incurable
ailments. This is where, the aspect of prarabdha comes, I believe.



Arunachala Siva. 
 

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #110 on: November 03, 2010, 08:30:57 AM »
  Dear Sri amiatall,

 Very nicely and aptly said,sir.Thank you so much. Pain is but no suffering on account of that pain.
 And certainly what use discussing a Jnani's state rather than the states of our own.
 When we discuss at all, it is destined to be endless and remain non-conclusive in the end.
 As far as I understand, Sri Bhagwan never encouraged discussion on a jnani's state.
 Instead He always entreated the questioner to rather enquire who it is who wants to know about a jnani's
 state.Thank you. Anil    

 

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #111 on: November 03, 2010, 09:21:45 AM »
   Dear Sri Subramanian Ji
 
 Thank you so much, sir , for explaining body-less state so nicely and with so much clarity. Yes sir, we understand  ego-less state better than the body-less state. But certainly we understand from the Life of Sri Bhagwan on the earth that the body-less state is not ‘non-existence of the body’ but  it is ‘non-identification with the body.’  But body-less state takes much longer time than one's achievement the egoless state  is an invaluable knowledge. Thank you.


                                                                               With Regards,

                                                                                    Anil
   

   

silentgreen

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #112 on: November 03, 2010, 10:05:49 AM »
As long as a person eats, drinks, excretes etc, I don't think we can say he is unaware of the body. A person who is unaware of the body in meditation (like Nirvikalpa Samadhi), most of these biological phenomenon ceases during that time. Even the breath seems to be suspended during that time.
Homage to the Universal Being...Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ...

srkudai

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #113 on: November 03, 2010, 10:13:23 AM »
Dear Subramanian,

Quote
The body-less state is not "non-existence of
the body", but the state of "not identifying with the body".   This
comes about not immediately when one controls the ego.  It takes
much longer time than one's achievement of egoless state

IF egoless state is there, how can identification with the body continue?
Egolessness is non-identification with body and mind.
There is no diffeence between these two.

as silentgreen mentions, person may be unaware of the body while in nirvikalpa samadhi. That is possible.
but when involved in the worldy things there is awareness of the body. There is no choice here.

And awareness of the body need not end. Even as a person playing the role of Ravana in a Drama , if he takes himself to be actual Ravana, that is a problem. Knowing that he is not Ravana, he can play the role of Ravana comfortably. It does not matter whether he plays the role or not. Relatively speaking, he is Ravana [in that role]. Absolutely speaking, He has nothing to do with Ravana.
Both are true.

The pain of Ramana was true from relative perspective.
From absolute perspective, Ramana was beyond all pain.

They are just two different orders of reality.




silentgreen

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #114 on: November 03, 2010, 02:58:03 PM »
Some more thoughts on body and body-lessness.

1. Four hands:
We do not have four hands, so it never comes to our mind to buy bangles or wrist watches for the other two hands. Therefore if the body is not there, nothing related to the body should happen like hunger, thirst, excretion, carrying a stick etc.

2. Scientist losing himself:
When a scientist is deeply engrossed in his studies, he loses the body consciousness for the time being. But this is temporary. The needs of the body itself will give a natural notification to attend to the body.

3. Inner organs like liver:
We have lot of inner organs like liver, intestines etc, but we are hardly aware of them. But when they malfunction, notification will be sent to us only. Such failures may rarely happen or may not happen in the lifetime, but still these organs are part of our body.

4. Ghost-like body:
A child is afraid of a ghost imagining that it has a ghost-body which can pass through the walls, fly from one place to another etc. The ghost shows up a body to others which does not have any flesh and a sword will pass through it. Such things can be made by siddhis also. A ghost body even though half-existing is owned by the ghost.

5. Self-Consumption:
Self-enquiry as described by Bhagavan is to find out "From where the I rises?"
Before enquiry, the "I" was the pivot and the source from where it rises, the periphery.
When a person is established in Jnana, the source becomes the pivot and the "I" becomes the periphery. In other words, the "I" gets consumed by the source. The characteristics of the Self like Chidakasa feeling, deep bliss etc comes in the forefront. The gross body needs are attended with peripheral awareness unless in Nirvikalpa samadhi.

Sri Ramakrishna once sang a song which starts with:
Mother, either you eat me or I will eat you.

After the song, he asked one of his devotees:
Now, do you understand what my state is?
Homage to the Universal Being...Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ...

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #115 on: November 03, 2010, 04:43:43 PM »
  Dear Sri Udai Shankar,

 In the context of the discussion on ‘Sudh Manas’, I wish to quote here three passages from  ‘Talks’ and ‘Day by Day’.

D        : Is not intellect a help for realization ?
Sri Bh : Yes, up to a certain stage. Even so, realize that the Self transcends the intellect- the later must itself vanish to reach the Self.

                                                                                      Talks, No-13

Sri Bh:  Of course we are  employing the mind. It is well known and admitted that only with the help of the mind the mind has to be killed. But instead of setting about saying there is a mind, and I want to kill it, you begin to seek the source of the mind, and you find the mind does not exist at all. The mind turned outwards, results in thoughts and objects. Turned inward, it becomes itself the Self. Such a mind is sometimes called ‘Arupa Manas’ or ‘Sudha Manas’. 

                                                                                           Page 37, Day by Day

 Sri Bh:  Atman is realized with ‘Mruta  Manas’ or the ‘Dead Mind’, that is, the mind devoid of thoughts and turned inward. Then the mind  sees its own source and becomes That. It is not as the subject  perceiving an  object. When the room is dark a lamp is necessary to illumine and eyes to cognize objects. But when the sun is risen there is no need of a lamp, and the objects are seen.

                                                                                             Talks,  No- 99

 From the above three statements of Sri Bhagwan , one is left with no doubt that ‘Arupa Manas’, ‘Sudha Manas’, ‘Mruta Manas’ and ‘Pure Mind  are one and the same mind.
As sri Bhagwan has explained above, such mind is devoid of thoughts. Further He said that the mind devoid of thoughts is of the nature of the Self. It is the Self Itself.

 Now you have raised the question how a realized sage functions in the world ?

 My answer is as following :
1.   Pure mind functions from the Heart-centre.
2.   A sage functions from an undivided and integral mind which is pure since is unpolluted by thoughts which is incomprehensible to us.
3.   A sage functions with a silent mind which is its basic state.Thoughts
        rise and subside in a such silent mind when required only.All actions are
   performed  in this vast silence of the mind.   
5.     Thoughts arise depending on the need and there is no carry-forward.
Having said thus, I certainly feel, dear Sri Udai ji, that it is impossible to gauge the State
and Mind of a realized sage from the state of a concept-based relative existence.You must be aware Sri Bhagwan Himself never encouraged such discussion and instead entreated
the enquirer  to enquire within first who wants to know all these things . Besides such discussions are bound to remain non-conclusive till the end. After all how such facts can be verified ? Who will be the Judge ? Sri Bhagwan has said that only jnani can understand the states of an another jnani. Thank you.

                                                                                         With Regards
                                                                                               Anil
 
5.              



eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #116 on: November 03, 2010, 04:48:04 PM »
  Dear Sri Udai Shankar,

 In the context of the discussion on ‘Sudh Manas’, I wish to quote here three passages from  ‘Talks’ and ‘Day by Day’.

D        : Is not intellect a help for realization ?
Sri Bh : Yes, up to a certain stage. Even so, realize that the Self transcends the intellect- the later must itself vanish to reach the Self.

                                                                                      Talks, No-13

Sri Bh:  Of course we are  employing the mind. It is well known and admitted that only with the help of the mind the mind has to be killed. But instead of setting about saying there is a mind, and I want to kill it, you begin to seek the source of the mind, and you find the mind does not exist at all. The mind turned outwards, results in thoughts and objects. Turned inward, it becomes itself the Self. Such a mind is sometimes called ‘Arupa Manas’ or ‘Sudha Manas’. 

                                                                                           Page 37, Day by Day

 Sri Bh:  Atman is realized with ‘Mruta  Manas’ or the ‘Dead Mind’, that is, the mind devoid of thoughts and turned inward. Then the mind  sees its own source and becomes That. It is not as the subject  perceiving an  object. When the room is dark a lamp is necessary to illumine and eyes to cognize objects. But when the sun is risen there is no need of a lamp, and the objects are seen.

                                                                                             Talks,  No- 99

 From the above three statements of Sri Bhagwan , one is left with no doubt that ‘Arupa Manas’, ‘Sudha Manas’, ‘Mruta Manas’ and ‘Pure Mind  are one and the same mind.
As sri Bhagwan has explained above, such mind is devoid of thoughts. Further He said that the mind devoid of thoughts is of the nature of the Self. It is the Self Itself.

 Now you have raised the question how a realized sage functions in the world ?

 My answer is as following :
1.   Pure mind functions from the Heart-centre.
2.   A sage functions from an undivided and integral mind which is pure since is unpolluted by thoughts which is incomprehensible to us.
3.   A sage functions with a silent mind which is its basic state.Thoughts
        rise and subside in a such silent mind when required only.All actions are
4.   performed  in this vast silence of the mind.   
5.     Thoughts arise depending on the need and there is no carry forward of such thoughts and actions.
Having said thus, I certainly feel, dear Sri Udai ji, that it is impossible to gauge the State
and Mind of a realized sage from the state of a concept-based relative existence.You must be aware Sri Bhagwan Himself never encouraged such discussion and instead entreated
the enquirer  to enquire within first who wants to know all these things . Besides such discussions are bound to remain non-conclusive till the end. After all how such facts can be verified ? Who will be the Judge ? Sri Bhagwan has said that only jnani can understand the states of an another jnani. Thank you.

                                                                                         With Regards
                                                                                               Anil
                



eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #117 on: November 03, 2010, 04:56:27 PM »
 I am sorry, by mistake of uploading, error of duplication of the reply has occurred.Therefore I request to kindly ignore it and read reply 116. thank you. anil 

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #118 on: November 04, 2010, 02:27:50 PM »
  Dear Devotees,

  It has been said by the great devotees of Sri Bhagwan
 that the  Bliss experienced during the practice of the Self-enquiry i.e.
 in sadhana stage, if it is understood and  practiced
 as Sri Bhagwan taught, is of the same nature as the 'Bliss'
 of the 'Natural State' or 'Self-abidance'.

                                                                ThankYou,
                                                                   Anil
 
 

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #119 on: November 05, 2010, 01:51:31 PM »
  Dear Devotees,

  Sri Bhagwan has said that Guru's Grace is unthinkable and that Guru, Grace and Self are one and the same.
 We, the victims of illusion, can we not understand the import of the following statement by Sri Bhagwan.
 Can we not have at least a peep ?

   " The gods and sages experience the Infinite continuously and eternally, without their vision obscured at any
  moment. Their minds are surmised by the spectators to function ; but in fact they do not. Such surmise is due
  to  the sense of individuality in those who draw inferences. There is no mental function in the absence of the
  individuality  Individuality and mind functions are coexistent. The one can not remain without the other.

  The light of the Self can be experienced only in the intellectual sheath. Therefore, vijnana of whatever kind
  ( of object or the Self ) depends on the Self being Pure Knowledge. "

                                                                                  Talks, No 204, P-181

  I feel that the meaning and the implication are obvious and , therefore, needs no elaboration.

                                                                                          Thank You,
                                                                                              Anil