Author Topic: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough  (Read 373678 times)

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #75 on: November 01, 2010, 08:01:42 AM »
 

   Sri Bhagwan said:

  " Born of forms
    Feeding on forms, ever changing its form
    Itself formless, this ego-ghost
    takes to its heels on enquiry. "

Subramanian.R

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #76 on: November 01, 2010, 08:10:21 AM »



Dear Anil,

The question may become answerless immediately [15 minutes in
the case of Bhagavan Ramana] or it may become answerless after
several births.  The moment it becomes answerless, it becomes
Jnana Vicharam and Jnana Bodham.

In Upadesa Saram, Verse 19,  Bhagavan Ramana says:

The Place where this "I" thought arises, what and whence?  Thus
when one seeks to find within, the "I" thought without rising will
lay down its head and die.  This is the quest of wisdom. [Jnana
Vicharam].

Again in Verse 20, He says:

In the place where the thought of ego as "I" non-dually merges as
"I", "I", that thing with awareness of Being, spontaneously on its own
without effort, shining, appears.  Shining by Its very nature, that is the
Infinite, all-full, [Poornam], Supreme Being.



Arunachala Siva.

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #77 on: November 01, 2010, 08:38:12 AM »
 Dear Sri Subramanian Ji

  Thank you so much for giving us the verse no  20 of the Upadesa Saram
  in a very beautiful manner of interpretation, as " ...........the thought of ego as 'I'
  non-dually merges as 'I', 'I'...". Dear Sir, can it be said like this that at the point of merging
  the consciousness part of the ego merges with the Absolute Consciousness
  and the insentient part, merely being an idea or a thought, simply vanishes
  or disappear ?

                                                                              With Regards,

                                                                                   Anil 

Subramanian.R

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #78 on: November 01, 2010, 08:58:05 AM »



Dear Anil,

Permanently abiding in egoless state is liberation, says the last
verse of Sad Darsanam. 



Arunachala Siva.

srkudai

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #79 on: November 01, 2010, 10:24:34 AM »
Dear Anil,

Quote
Dear Sri Udai Shankar, I agree totally with you that indisputable content of the 'experience' is That about which
nothing can be said whatever.

This is not what I am saying at all. :) Let me explain my position very clearly:

1. My claim is that Experience is not needed!

2. Also , my claim is that Thoughtlessness is not needed.

I am very clear about both.
another thing. My position is :

3. I consider that its redundant to say "supreme consciousness", as it creates a kind of illuson that there is some thing like "non-supreme consciousness". Even the word Pure Consciousness is very wrong way of using it. There is nothing like impure consciousness.
which means, i am talking only about this consciousness with which we are functioning. normal day to day consciousness.

Scriptures just state Pragnanam Brahma!! They do not say Suddha Pragnanam Brahma.

I am sure you disagree with most of what I wrote here, dont you ? :) :) :)
Is there anyone here who agrees with me on these points?

Love!
Silence


Subramanian.R

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #80 on: November 01, 2010, 10:58:03 AM »



In Sanskrit they use Brahman and Para-Brahman.  For want of more
exact words in English, they use  Supreme Consciousness or
Supreme Self.,

Bhagavan Ramana has said in the last verse of Sat Darsnam:

"ayum ahandai uru azhidhal mukti unaR..."  Thus inquiring to know,
the ego, the annihilation of its very form is the true state of liberation, -- realize thus..."

In answer to question No. 12 in Who am ?, Bhagavan Ramana
says:

The birthplace of mind and prana are the same.  Thought is the
form of mind.  I thought is the mind's first thought.  This is ego.

Hence, thoughtless state or egoless state is liberation.

I trust that Bhagavan Ramana knows about this much better
than all of us.



Arunachala Siva.

srkudai

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #81 on: November 01, 2010, 11:52:29 AM »
Dear Subramanian,
               :)

Yes, Bhagavan knew much better than all of us about this. He said its a bodiless state also.
:) The sense in which you understood thoughtless to mean without any thoughts in mind ... if you understand bodilessness in the same way, you would need to end the body for liberation :)

But with body you would say "it can continue after liberation", while with thought you say "it cannot continue after liberation"

what kind of understanding is that?

Obviously it just means the Truth is not understood at all. So Ramana said something, but the understanding that thoughts have to end for liberation is not definitely the correct understanding of what he meant.

Love!
Silence

srkudai

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #82 on: November 01, 2010, 11:53:31 AM »
BTW are there two things like Brahman and Para-Brahman ?
:)

Subramanian.R

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #83 on: November 01, 2010, 12:48:28 PM »



Brahman and Para Brahman are two ways in which scriptures have
used it in various works.

It will take quite a good time, to reach bodiless state, but one
can surely venture to attain egoless state.

Muruganar says:

To reach the Heart in such a way that the ego ceases to be.
Any effort to reach the Heart that relies primarily on ego-
consciousness will be utterly futile. This is why it has been
said relying on the grace of God as the primary support.

He further says in Padamalai:

Verse  1210:

Everything that one has learned is total falsehood if it does not
become a means for mind-consciousness to subside within the Heart.

Guru Vachaka Kovai Verse 1003:

The space of consciousness, the Heart, the Self, is the supreme
sun that never has any rising and setting.  In the presence of this
sun, the mind of the Atma Jnani is visible like the moon that appears in broad day light in this vast world.

Guru Vachaka Kovai Verse 1139:

If it is asked, 'We actually see the Jnani performing actions.  How
can actions be performed in the absence of sense of doership?'
you should be convinced that because of his inner attachment
[the ego] is dead, he has God himself residing in his Heart, and
performing those actions. 

[Tr. David Godman]

Bhagavan:  The Jnani is Bhuma.  Bhuma is the Supreme - yatra
naanyat pasyati yatra naanyat srunoti sa Bhuma.  Where one does not see any other, hears nothing, it is perfection.  It is indefinable
and indescribable.  It is as it is. 

Padamalai Verse 634:

Only the resplendent abode - Parandama -, whose nature is
Consciousness of being and which surges as Bhuma [the immanent reality], is the non dual Self, the Supreme.

[Tr. David Godman]     



Arunachala Siva.

srkudai

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #84 on: November 01, 2010, 01:26:41 PM »
So Bhagavan Ramana was Thoughtless or bodiless , or both ?
:)

bhagavan did not say u should become thoughtless now and later u can become bodiless.
he said, the state is thoughtless and bodiless.

and he had both thoughts and body.

how do you explain that?

Subramanian.R

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #85 on: November 01, 2010, 02:05:42 PM »



The thoughtless state and bodiless state need not go together.
Again thoughtless state is a state where thoughts are non existent.
But bodiless state is not a state where body is non existent.  The
JNANI DOES NOT IDENTIFY HIMSELF WITH THE BODY REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THE BODY IS EXISTING OR NOT.  This is only
for a Jivan Mukta, because the 'body' continues even after attainment
of Jnana. 

Sri Sankara also says in Viveka Chudamani, that a Jivan mukta
does not care whether his body eventually falls on a river, or near
a siva temple or under a tree.
 
G.V. Subbaramaiah says in his Sri Ramana Reminiscences:

Just as a man blinded with drunkenness sees not the cloth he
has on, so the Self realized Jnani knows not whether the perishable body is existent or non existent, whether by force of karma it has
gone from him or come to him.

Bhagavan, in Day by Day, entry dated, 19th November 1946:

Does the Jnani say he has a body?   He may look to you as having
a body and doing things with the body, as others do.  The burnt
rope still looks like a rope, but it can't serve as a rope if you try
to bind anything with it.  So long as one identifies oneself with the
body all this is difficult to understand.



Arunachala Siva.


srkudai

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #86 on: November 01, 2010, 02:41:13 PM »
Dear Subramanian,
  :)

Quote
The thoughtless state and bodiless state need not go together.
Again thoughtless state is a state where thoughts are non existent.
But bodiless state is not a state where body is non existent.  The
JNANI DOES NOT IDENTIFY HIMSELF WITH THE BODY REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THE BODY IS EXISTING OR NOT.  This is only
for a Jivan Mukta, because the 'body' continues even after attainment
of Jnana. 

1. Can you explain this disparity? Both body and mind are just two layers . they are two koshas.
then why is it that body can remain but not mind!!
also ... bhagavan clearly said that there is no mind nor a body.
so, why do you give this charity for body but not for mind?

2. given that a jnani is not conscious of body, its well noted that Bhagavan has pain some times. Even knee pain.
he never complained but experienced. so, if jnani is not supposed to have any body consciousness he should not have experienced.
and that painless state should be changeless.

:)


prasanth_ramana_maharshi

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #87 on: November 01, 2010, 06:39:23 PM »
Nice discussion.

Even our guru ramana felt tooth pain and they called doctor to cure that pain.

I feel it is not fair to suggest to someone who is feeling with toothpain that it is only a thought and suggest to remove that thought.

I feel after reading bhagavan's life i think i can safely conclude that as far as possible and depending on our intense sadhana it is possible to some extent to forget pain associated with our body.

Regarding thoughtless state i feel in theory it is possible to quote 1000's verses from diff texts but people should not forget that only when we have thoughts we can quote these texts related to thoughtless state  :)

If really someone suggests thoughtless state i suggest they take medicine like anesthesia throughout their life which will solve their problem.
ఓం  నమో  భగవతే  శ్రీ  రమణాయ   
ప్రశాంత్  జలసూత్రం
ప్రేమే శాశ్వతము

Subramanian.R

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #88 on: November 01, 2010, 07:34:04 PM »



Egoless state or thoughtless state take one inward and one can
experience Swarupam.  We cannot say, on the same count, that, Bhagavan Ramana felt the body pain, He must also have thoughts like that occasionally.  Because, even if thoughts do come, actions do come, it is only the God within that is causing them.  Whereas even if Bhagavan Ramana is said to be in bodiless state, the onlookers are seeing the body, acting, and doing things.   In one of the quotes, I have given above, Bhagavan Ramana has said:  It is from your point of view that a Jnani has got a body.  The real situation is that He kept the body away from His Swarupam, as if
it is remaining as a different jada pathartha.  Even when there were
pains, He did not say, "I am having pain."  He said that the body is
having pain. It is like saying that flowers in your balcony flower
pot is withering due to sun. The flower pot is away from you.
Whenever body pain occurred, He never said that "I am having pain"
or "MY body is having pain."  Thus He remained in total non identification with the body as His.

The body will not say I.  Even in our cases, if my hand is amputated
and is lying on a basin in the hospital, I shall not identify myself
with that hand.  Nor the hand will say, I am Subramanian. Bhagavan Ramana treated the whole body like that, whether the body was inn good health or in pain.

This bodiless state does not happen to all Brahma Jnanis.  Jnanis
like Sri Ramakrishna and Swami Sivananda have cried when there
was pain.  But these two were also in the ego less state, but the identification came, when the misery became unbearable and they were forced to identify the bodies on such occasions.
Once Sri Vivekananda said:  "I am talking about Brahman and
Advaita, but when some stone hits my toe, I cry, O I am pained."

But we have no anecdote on Bhagavan Ramana crying,
when He had suffered such indescribable pain during two years of His terminal illness.     

Dear prasanth,

We are all talking about Bhagavan's state, and not our own states.
Our own states have got, "I thought" and a million other thoughts
trailing behind it.  Even if we say we are egoless and truly so,
the state of bodilessness will take a longer time to achieve.
Because once we achieve egoless state, the mind would no longer pain.  But body will continue with  pain because of our thicker identification with the body.         



Arunachala Siva.

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #89 on: November 01, 2010, 09:26:50 PM »
  Dear Sri Udai Shankar Ji,

 The reason why we have to face the awkward predicament is on account of the fact that we are trying to discuss the content of the natural state from the stand point of and our present existing state of concept-based empirical realities. I wish to explain it as following :-
 
  Sri Bhagwan has said that there is neither the past nor the future. Only the present is. Nay, only ‘now’ is. ’Now’ transcends the concept of the time itself. ‘Now’, ‘now’….ever ‘now’, all pervading solid,
perfect ‘stillness now’ is the only ‘Reality’. In natural state , there absolutely can not be any deviation from ‘now’. Experiencing of  natural happiness or ‘Bliss’ is ever ‘now’. ‘Now’ is synonymous with natural state or the thoughtless state or the experiencing of ‘Bliss’. When in the ‘now’ , you experience your own Self only, thoughtless  conceptless, choiceless,….The moment you utter Natural state , Supreme State etc,, you have already deviated from ‘now’ to either past or future and element of time has been introduced in that which is devoid of all these. Ego’s sovereignty is the order of the day then.
But Self is untouched and remains as illumination i.e.  source and the light by which it ( ego ) is apprehended,  all the while.
You yourself have explained it so beautifully in one of your posts by the simile of ‘forms in space’.

 Dear Sri Udai Shankar Ji, what made you express the view that I would disagree from most of your view points expressed in the above posts. You know we have been taught that there is essential unity in spiritual matters. Reconciliation is the watch word for me. Rather I totally agree with you. Experience, natural state, thoughtless state, Supreme Consciousness, .. can not be the  true expression of the ‘Reality’. You are aware that they are merely indicators or hints of the ‘Real’ , coined out of compassion, by the realized sages for mankind. Nevertheless, they are all in the realm of the thoughts  only, are  not they , Sir ?  But their function  as I understand is to convince us of the necessity to internalize and ‘be’. But perhaps discussion is essential to understand the futility of the discussion.
 Sri Bhagwan says : “ The  intellect is a help for realization up to a certain stage . Even so , realize that the Self transcends the intellect- the latter itself must vanish to reach the Self ”. Thank you.

                                                                                             With Regards,
                                                                                                   Anil       Anil