Author Topic: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough  (Read 372550 times)

silentgreen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 674
    • View Profile
Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #90 on: November 02, 2010, 07:52:08 AM »
Sri Ramakrishna never identified himself with the body. It was a play to him.
Once during throat cancer when Sri Ramakrishna was complaining of pain, Swami Turiyananda took courage and said:
"Sir, whatever you may say, I see you as an infinite ocean of bliss."
At this Sri Ramakrishna said to himself with a smile: "This rascal has found me out!"
In fact Sri Ramakrishna was in such an exalted state that nothing can be said about him.

Swami Vivekananda after leaving his body came to Shashi Maharaj in dream and told him: "Shashi! I have spat out my body".

No Brahma Jnani identifies himself with the body. In the outward life, the body needs to follow the laws of nature. There is normally no exception to this.
Homage to the Universal Being...Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ...

Subramanian.R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13662
    • View Profile
Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #91 on: November 02, 2010, 08:21:14 AM »



Dear silentgreen and others,

I think, Talks No. 343 given below should answer most of our points
in the discussion.

Devotee:  Even as the hand is cut off, one must remain unaware of it
because Bhagavad Gita declares that the Self is different from the body.

Bhagavan:  Does Jnana  consist in being unaware of the pain of
injury?

Devotee:  Should he not remain unaware of the pain?

Bhagavan:  Major operations are performed under anaesthetics,
keeping the patient unaware of the pain.  Does the patient gain
Jnana too, at the same time?  INSENSIBILITY TO PAIN CANNOT
BE JNANA.

Devotee:  Should not a Jnani be insensible to pain?

Bhagavan:  Physical pain only follows the body-consciousness.  It
cannot be in the absence of body-consciousness. Mind, being unaware of body, cannot be aware of its pains or pleasures.  Read
the story of Indra and Ahalya in Yoga Vasishta.  There, death is
itself is said to be an act of mind.  PAINS ARE DEPENDENT ON
THE EGO.  THEY CANNOT BE WITHOUT THE 'I' BUT I CAN REMAIN
WITHOUT THEM.



Arunachala Siva. 

eranilkumarsinha

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1913
    • View Profile
Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #92 on: November 02, 2010, 08:26:00 AM »
  Dear Sri silentgreen,

 Thank you for a very nice post.
 No Brahma Jnani identifies
 with his body. The examples of Sri Bhagwan,
 Sri Ram Krishna Param Hans and other realized sages
 are there for all of us to understand.

 Besides, I feel that the most appropriate counseling in this
 context has been given by Sri Bhagwan Himself and
 which has been mentioned by Sri Subramanian ji in his post,
 " We are talking about Sri Bhagwan's state, and not about
 our own states."

                                                            Thank You,
                                                               Anil

eranilkumarsinha

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1913
    • View Profile
Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #93 on: November 02, 2010, 08:35:11 AM »
  True, I am vile, you immaculate.
  But I have reached your feet and stand before you
  Lord supreme, you can transmute
  All that you touch into yourself.
  Such is your glory. Then it is your duty,
  Blue-throated friend within me dwelling
  Ramana, mighty Lord, your duty,
  To turn me into Shiva and make me shine.

                                          Sri Muruganar

srkudai

  • Guest
Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #94 on: November 02, 2010, 09:06:12 AM »
Dear Subramanian,
             :)
Anyways, let us just see how these notions are really wrong. They were fed to us by unenlightened people. So we are bound by these very notions. Bhagavan himself was saying something totally different, as i shall explain later.

1. When Bhagavan said i am not this body, yet he could feel his pain and not my pain! When the goat was cut he did not get cut!!
2. When Bhagavan said he had no thoughts, he was talking of "his mind" not "my mind"

if he had no notion of "me and mine", how come he could say "i have no thoughts", when my mind had thoughts?
did he mean my mind has no thoughts?

:)

"Its from the onlooker's perspective", the one who said this is the one who is experiencing pain. The one who has no body, who is beyond all this, him you have never met.
the one whom you have met is with body and thoughts. and he cannot say he has no thoughts or body.

Do you get that?

What I am saying is not that Bhagawan was wrong. All i am saying is Bhagvan said something ,and most people misconstructed it. Even during lifetime of Bhagavan we can hear such cases where what he said was misconstructed.
Only very few devotees like Annamalai Swami got the Truth. Rest all deduced their own theories mostly.

Love!
Silence

silentgreen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 674
    • View Profile
Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #95 on: November 02, 2010, 09:06:47 AM »
The sensation of pain has been given by God himself to preserve the body.
Without pain, while sleeping rats may come and eat out the whole body and go away. God has created the body and given the appropriate means to preserve the body.

In the story of Sri Krishna the last lesson taught by Sandipani Muni to Sri Krishna and Balaram was astral travel. On the day of the lesson the room of meditation was locked and persons placed as guards outside the room. This was because during astral travel, the body will lie like dead bodies and people mistaking for corpse may cremate them.

While prana is there in the body, appropriate means are also there to ensure that the body does not get destroyed. Hunger and thirst is there for regular nourishment, pain is there to detect corrosive influences, urge of excretion is there for elimination etc.

To a Brahma Jnani, the body is a doll and God is the player. Hunger, thirst, pains are different pranic currents of God. Hunger, thirst, pains can be trancended in meditation. Swami Turiyananda himself had an operation on his back without anasthesia. The other Swami who looked at the outpour of blood swooned but Swami Turiyananda was sitting like a hill. For a Brahma Jnani, the ego itself is a doll of God. Before Jnana, vasana seem to pull the strings, after Jnana, God Himself seem to pull the strings.

That is why Sri Ramakrishna used to say, "I am the puppet, Mother is the player".
Homage to the Universal Being...Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ...

srkudai

  • Guest
Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #96 on: November 02, 2010, 09:14:49 AM »
Dear SilentGreen,
               :)
To a Brahma Jnani, The body is there, sensation in the mind is there. But he is aloof. He does not own up the pain or suffering. He does not take it onto HIS HEAD. He does not make it "HIS BURDEN".
The thoughts are there, he does not own them up and say i have lots of thoughts.
The story if given of a devotee travelling in a train was holding all his luggage on his head.
All he had to do to escape the suffering was to put down the luggage.

A Jnani is one who has put down all the luggage and is not carrying anything on his head.
the body is there, but i do not suffer its troubles or problems. The pain is there, i do not make it into suffering.
There is always a difference between jeeva sristi and ishvara sristi. no one can remove ishvara sristi. Jeeva sristi is the self imposed conditioning on the ishvara sristi. this is to be put down.

Love!
Silence

srkudai

  • Guest
Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #97 on: November 02, 2010, 09:33:05 AM »
Dear Anil,
          :)
if it is ur natural state, then you do not have to negate anything to be it.
thoughts, concepts, body are all required for you to function in this world.
They are all mithya jagat. one need not remove them. They are mithya always. So Mithya need not and cannot be removed.
its foolish to burry a shadow.

One cannot and need not remove anything. They are already not there in the first place.
To recognize that the shadow is not really there, one need not "Remove" it.
To recognize that a mirage is not really a water body, one need not eliminate its appearance.
And once one recognizes that it is a mirage, one has no need to eliminate it either.

Quote
what made you express the view that I would disagree from most of your view points expressed in the above posts
:) so then you disagree with the point that you would disagree ;)
just kidding. But i see no harm in disagreeing.
For example i disagree that the function of scriptures and teachings is to internalize us. I disagree that discussion is futile. Above all, i disagree with the statement you have quoted as bhagavan's:
Quote
“ The  intellect is a help for realization up to a certain stage . Even so , realize that the Self transcends the intellect- the latter itself must vanish to reach the Self ”
Bhagavan was using intellect to express this view!! :) no one can express such view's without intellect. so naturally the idea that intellect has to "Vanish" is not it. But Bhagavan is not wrong. The understanding with which this statement is quoted is definitely wrong.

Love!
Silence

Subramanian.R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13662
    • View Profile
Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #98 on: November 02, 2010, 10:31:25 AM »



From Annamalai Swami - Final Talks: [Ed. David Godman]

Question:  How does the Jnani relate to his body?  How does it
feel to him?

Annamalai Swami: The Jnani is no really aware of the body.  Or, if
he is, he feels it like Akasa, Space itself.

After one of the operations to remove the tumour on Bhagavan's
arm had been completed, I was worried enough to send a girl who
worked for me to the Asramam to ask how Bhagavan was.  I could
not go myself because Bhagavan had asked me not to visit Him.
When the girl told Bhagavan why she had come, He started laughing
very loudly.  I interpreted this to mean that nothing really had happened.  His laughter was a message to me that Bhagavan was not His body and that I should therefore not be upset or worried
by anything that happened to it. 

Years before, I was walking on the Hill with Bhagavan when He remarked:  "I don't feel the weight of the body at all.  I feel as if
I am walking weightlessly through the sky.."

I sometimes have the same feeling when I am walking around.



Arunachala Siva.   

srkudai

  • Guest
Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #99 on: November 02, 2010, 10:42:52 AM »
Dear Subramanian,
          :) When you first arrived at Bhagavan, you were able to appreciate his teachings because of an open mind.
You evaluated what he said and found it to be the most reasonable presentation.
Now, you are quoting them as authority without openly inquiring.

The quote you have given is correct, but its interpretation is wrong. Bhagavan did feel pain. he was suffocated when people used agarbathi and treated him like a statue. he was however not suffocated when i was suffocated or you were suffocated.

The relative world of mithya being as it is ... remains as it is. bhagavan felt the sensations of his body. bhagavan used thoughts to express ideas. Bhagavan was walking, talking and discussing .

But Bhagavan was also thoughtless, bodiless Consciousness.

From relative standpoint, Bhagavan had a name, he had a body which is not your body or my body. He had a mind which had thoughts. the thoughts he had, i may not have. he had memories which are uniquely his.

From absolute point of view, the Consciousness is bodiless and thoughtless at the same time when his mind had thoughts.

Love!
Silence

silentgreen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 674
    • View Profile
Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #100 on: November 02, 2010, 10:48:32 AM »
Dear srkudai,

Quote
The story if given of a devotee travelling in a train was holding all his luggage on his head.
All he had to do to escape the suffering was to put down the luggage.

In this train-luggage analogy, I feel that the main stress is not whether the devotee puts down the luggage or not, but that the devotee realised that he/she is traveling in a train. A Jnani knows beyond doubt that a train is carrying everyone. A normal person is unaware/doubtful about the train itself.

For Sri Ramakrishna, Divine Mother is the train and we are all passengers.
A monkey cub partly on its strength and partly surrendered to mother goes wherever the mother carries it. A kitten fully surrendered goes whereever the mother carries it.
Homage to the Universal Being...Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ...

srkudai

  • Guest
Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #101 on: November 02, 2010, 10:55:43 AM »
"I sometimes have the same feeling" , means its sometimes there, and some times not there. Thats how feelings are supposed to be.
therefore they are mithya.

Subramanian.R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13662
    • View Profile
Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #102 on: November 02, 2010, 11:58:11 AM »



Dear srkudai,

I often tend to quote Guru Vachaka Kovai and Padamalai, because
I consider these two books as dictionary of Bhagavan's teachings.
They are the direct and correct English translations by David Godman
of Muruganar's works, which were verified by Bhagavan Ramana for
their correctness and content.  That is the reason.  I honestly feel
that our own descriptions and explanations and analysis are often less accurate than these writings of the great devotee Muruganar.

I have read Guru Vachaka Kovai and Padamalai, both in Tamizh
and in English [David's].  This was a project for me for about two
months.  I came to the conclusion, that to describe Bhagavan and
His teachings, these should be relied upon first.  After all one
cannot write new grammar than what is available in Wren and Martin.



Arunachala Siva.   

srkudai

  • Guest
Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #103 on: November 02, 2010, 12:47:50 PM »
Dear Subramanian,
             :)
What if you are reading the scriptures but missing the actual point they are trying to depict ?
I am thoughtless : As Consciousness I am ever thoughtless. The moment i identify with mind, there is a thought for me.
Since I am not mind, even when mind has thoughts, i do not.

Again, become thoughtless need not mean one has to remove thoughts, one has to be the Source of thoughts and hence not own up thoughts. just as my thoughts do not belong to you, your own thoughts are not owned by you, you being Consciousness.

The Teaching is what you heard, the meaning is this. its not become thoughtless literally as if that is the case how can he teach?

Love!
Silence

prasanth_ramana_maharshi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2738
  • ఓం నమో భగవతే శ్రీ రమణాయ
    • View Profile
    • HARE RAMA HARE KRISHNA
Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #104 on: November 02, 2010, 12:53:51 PM »
100% i agree with you udai garu.
ఓం  నమో  భగవతే  శ్రీ  రమణాయ   
ప్రశాంత్  జలసూత్రం
ప్రేమే శాశ్వతము