Author Topic: Fundamental question about Mind!  (Read 164518 times)

Hari

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #120 on: May 19, 2012, 09:18:12 PM »
Quote
Those interested in reading the complete talk may refer:
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Complete_Works_of_Swami_Vivekananda/Volume_2/Practical_Vedanta_and_other_lectures/Practical_Vedanta:_Part_I
Namaskar.

As I have already said Svami Vivekananda's works are priceless. I like His practicality, honestness, openness, simplicity, devotional attitude. He is really One Indian Jewel! ! !
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Nagaraj

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #121 on: May 19, 2012, 09:30:42 PM »
Dear i,

:D I have experienced that innumerable number of times. BEWARE, once we have seen the hell properly, we will never want to go there again, even out of some error, faux-pas :D

Here is where Nisargadatta Maharaj says, keep sticking to "I am" at all times, never leave it even for a moment, otherwise, it gets camouflaged yet again, needlessly.



Dear i, here i present, some sample expressions of Jnaneshwar. I had to stop myself from posting more, every thing is so beautiful, cannot be missed out -

If absolute knowledge required the aid of some other kind of knowledge (to know itself) it would be nothing but ignorance.

It can be seen, therefore, that he who perceives  that there is nothing Does not himself become nothing . The Self has this same unique kind of existence, Beyond both existence and non-existence.

If ignorance deludes the knower, the Self, Who, then, is there to regard it as ignorance?

And if it does not delude the knower, would it not be shameful to call it ignorance?

If the clouds really eclipsed the Sun, who would illumine them? If a person were really annihilated by sleep, Who would experience it?

If the one in whom ignorance resides Becomes ignorant, That ignorance would be indiscernable.

For that by which ignorance is discerned Can never be ignorance itself.

It would make no sense to say that there is a cataract in the eye, But the eyesight is unimpaired.



Moreover, Dear i, That which has discerned all these, itself cannot be discerned, can discern, Discern itself? Can the Self know itself? Self alone is, it is not an object to be known, It is. like again, the expressions - Can eye See itself, can tongue taste itself, can knife cut itself?

Prostrations to Bhagavan
« Last Edit: May 19, 2012, 09:33:26 PM by Nagaraj »
मनश्चेन्न लग्नं गुरोरंघ्रिपद्मे ततः किं ततः किं ततः किं ततः किम् ।।

Manaschenna lagnam Gurorangri padme, Thatha kim Thathah Kim, Thathah kim Thathah kim

If the mind does not remain at the Lotus feet of Guru, What is the use? What is the use? What is the use!!

Hari

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #122 on: May 19, 2012, 09:39:37 PM »
Haha, but the head can see itself in the mirror and to hit it thinking that it hit itself. Now I start realizing why the world is so funny for many jnanis. :D
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Hari

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #123 on: May 19, 2012, 09:47:15 PM »
Dear friend, I want to share with you an article by I-don't-know :) which I like very. It describes very important moments of our path and shows the work of the mind. Here it is:

Atma Vichara

Atma Vichara is sometimes known as "the royal way" or "the quick way" to awakening.

"Atma" means consciousness or awareness or the unfathomable intelligence. "Vichara" means inquiry into. So Atma Vichara means "inquiry into consciousness itself."

We all long for happiness. But we think that this happiness will come from objects or concepts, which cannot provide it. Nevertheless, we search for the next object or concept that will bring us happiness—and when it doesn't, the next one, and the next one.

So we long for more money or respect or more friends or more love or prestige. We long for heaven or God or awakening. We long for and long for, and it never ends, because it is the very nature of the mind to keep longing no matter what it has.

Atma Vichara reverses this, and asks us to inquire into the very source of this longing. We ask: "Who is it that is feeling this longing?" And when we look, we find nothing there but awareness itself.

When we catch ourselves thinking about ourselves we ask, "Who is it that is thinking about this 'me'?" And when we look we cannot find any personal someone. All we can find is awareness itself, searching for it.

When we feel sad and depressed we can ask, "Who is it that is feeling sad and depressed?" And we won't find anyone there. All we'll find is the awareness itself that is asking.

When we feel lonely and fearful we can ask, "Who is it that is feeling lonely and fearful?" And all we'll find is the vast consciousness itself in which this loneliness and fear is momentarily residing.

But whatever the contents of consciousness, those contents don't affect it, anymore than the weather fundamentally affects the sky. The sky may contain clouds or sunshine or rain, but the sky itself is unaffected. It continues to be pure spaciousness, no matter what the weather.

Or imagine a mirror. A mirror is not concerned about what is reflected in it. If there are many reflections it does not feel busy. If there are no reflections it does not feel bored. It just reflects whatever is there.

So it is with consciousness. The objects of consciousness come and go, like fireflies in the night. Desires come and go. Feelings come and go. Thoughts come and go. States of mind come and go. But consciousness always remains, always there. It has always been there, and indeed, is there now—pristine, pure, unsullied by anything.

The great 14th century Zen master Bassui used this so-called path. He would sit in isolated forests and hear a bird and ask, "Who is it that is hearing this bird?" And he could never find any "I" there, but only awareness itself. There was no "person" hearing it, but only aware spaciousness, like the sky.

The great 20th century master Ramana Maharshi used this as well. He would inquire, "Who am I?" or "What is this 'I' that my mind keeps thinking about?" And ultimately he couldn't find any personal somebody, but only the endless Self that has no boundaries anywhere. He could only find the awareness in which the question was taking place.

Hence the saying of the great masters that in reality there is no personal life. They say it in different ways, in different cultures and different times, but it's the same thing:

"There is no separate being, only Buddha-nature."

"I live not, but the Father liveth in me."

"Only the Self exists."

"There is nothing but the One."



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Nagaraj

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #124 on: May 19, 2012, 09:53:49 PM »
Dear i,

yes, now we can grasp, why some jnanis were intoxicated in bliss, and some laughed in ecstasy of madness reality.

i post some more, out of sheer joy for myself.

Jnaneshwar says:

When you look in a mirror and see your own face,
You realize that both are only yourself.

By looking in a mirror, one perceives his own identity;
But that identity was already there.

Knowledge could know itself
If a mirror could reflect itself
To itself.

Can a mirror see its own polished surface?

“When a mirror is held before one’s face,
That face appears to be in the mirror;
But, in fact, the face is
In its own place and not in the mirror.

“It is the rope which actually exists,
Even though it appears as a snake.
It is the Witness who really exists,
Even though He appears
As the object of perception.

A face sees only itself,
Even though a mirror has revealed it.
And that face remains the same,
In itself,
Even when it is not revealed by a mirror.

Where there is nothing, what can one know?
The eyes can see, but can they see themselves?
How can knowledge be of use when all is oneself?

He may perform actions,
But he has no goal to attain.
Do not imagine
That, if he did nothing,
He would miss his goal.

His rule of conduct is his own sweet will.
His meditation is whatever
He happens to be doing.
The glory of liberation
Serves as an asana (seat cushion)
To one in such a state.

He does not allow room
For either remembering or forgetting;
For this reason,
His behavior is not like that of others.

Since the Sun of Self-realization
Has arisen in the sky of pure Consciousness,
It has swallowed up
Both the day of knowledge
And the night of ignorance.

Thus, he who knows does not know,
And even he who does not know, knows.
Where, then,
Could knowledge and ignorance dwell?

Knowledge turns into ignorance,
And ignorance is dispelled by knowledge;
Each is cancelled by the other.

Actually,
Knowledge and ignorance are destroyed
In the process of discerning their meaning.

Both the husband
And the wife lose their lives
When each cuts off the other’s head.

By His own illumination,
The Self is perceiving Himself
In all these various forms.

i end exercise restraint here :)

Prostrations to Bhagavan
मनश्चेन्न लग्नं गुरोरंघ्रिपद्मे ततः किं ततः किं ततः किं ततः किम् ।।

Manaschenna lagnam Gurorangri padme, Thatha kim Thathah Kim, Thathah kim Thathah kim

If the mind does not remain at the Lotus feet of Guru, What is the use? What is the use? What is the use!!

Nagaraj

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #125 on: May 19, 2012, 09:57:34 PM »
The great 14th century Zen master Bassui used this so-called path. He would sit in isolated forests and hear a bird and ask, "Who is it that is hearing this bird?" And he could never find any "I" there, but only awareness itself. There was no "person" hearing it, but only aware spaciousness, like the sky.

What joy, truly, how direct and simple, cannot be more easier. This sums it all up!

Prostrations to Bhagavan
मनश्चेन्न लग्नं गुरोरंघ्रिपद्मे ततः किं ततः किं ततः किं ततः किम् ।।

Manaschenna lagnam Gurorangri padme, Thatha kim Thathah Kim, Thathah kim Thathah kim

If the mind does not remain at the Lotus feet of Guru, What is the use? What is the use? What is the use!!

Hari

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #126 on: May 19, 2012, 10:24:26 PM »
Dear Nagaraj,
even the death of Sri Bassui was extraordinary:
Quote
In 1387 (at the age of 61), as Bassui was sitting in zazen meditation among his followers, he turned to them and shouted twice:

"Look straight ahead. What's there? If you see it as it is You will never err."

He then died.
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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #127 on: May 19, 2012, 11:02:12 PM »
Dear i,

interesting! Great jnanis, chose the way they exit from the physical body. There is this concept of Jiva Samadhi in our part of culture, where the realised ones voluntarily leaves his body. We have Vallalar, who even vanished in thin air, no trace of his body, Manickavachakar is said to have disappeared into light (no sure) Jnaneshwar built a samadhi and it was covered when he was alive, he chose the date, time, etc... and went and sat in samadhi. Raghavendra Swami of Mantralaya, as well built a  Samadhi and sat in Samadhi and it was covered, Sringeri Chandrashekhara Bharati Swamy went into Tunga River and sat inside in Padmasana motionless and left his body, moments later his attendants found his body floating in water in Padmasana posture intact. I also believe that Ramanar too left his body voluntarily, as his body became too weak, he did not want to cause trouble to others and at the time of his release from body his clock stopped at the very time, and a shooting star was seen rise above the Arunachala hill. There are innumerable stories.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
मनश्चेन्न लग्नं गुरोरंघ्रिपद्मे ततः किं ततः किं ततः किं ततः किम् ।।

Manaschenna lagnam Gurorangri padme, Thatha kim Thathah Kim, Thathah kim Thathah kim

If the mind does not remain at the Lotus feet of Guru, What is the use? What is the use? What is the use!!

Nagaraj

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #128 on: May 19, 2012, 11:07:33 PM »
And how can we forget, Swami Vivekananda had said he would live up to the age of 40!

Prostrations to Bhagavan
मनश्चेन्न लग्नं गुरोरंघ्रिपद्मे ततः किं ततः किं ततः किं ततः किम् ।।

Manaschenna lagnam Gurorangri padme, Thatha kim Thathah Kim, Thathah kim Thathah kim

If the mind does not remain at the Lotus feet of Guru, What is the use? What is the use? What is the use!!

Nagaraj

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #129 on: May 20, 2012, 09:45:18 AM »
Dear i,

The conclusion of yesterday's discussion is merely intellectual understanding. Bhagavan says, first understand intellectually, and, then try to "Be That" for our intellect, mind will not allow us to meditate. All these are basically to quieten the Mind, Intellect, and resolve itself completely as it now knows very well that the Self is Supreme and Ultimate. The more one knows the truth intellectually, the lesser trouble the mind, intellect would cause, the more and more one grasps the Truth, the Vasanas ie pre dispositions, feel shamed and feel how little it is before the Self, drop away out of sheer humbleness. Hence knowing this truth is important, before  one is truly able to meditate. One should develop the yearning to attain the Self, beyond anything. With this intellectual knowledge, one can survive very well in the world :D one can preach and speak wonderfully and attract millions of followers, but, if still one is unable to repose as Self, all this knowledge is useless tinsel.

Like in todays post under the Topi "Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough" as it was shared as follows:

“Heart is the consciousness that exists as mere being. It does not rise as ‘I’ and go out to know the sense objects, the non-Self. To the consciousness that remains still without objectifying, the truth of itself shines spontaneously. Therefore, to hold onto that Heart, which is consciousness, as the target, and to remain firmly established in it, without movement, is the shining of pure being.”

                                V. 435, GVK, Edited by Sri D. Godman

Bhagavan says in Upadesa Saaram 26:

आत्मसंस्थितिःस्वात्मदर्शनं ।
आत्मनिर्द्वयादात्मनिष्ठता ॥

ätma-saàsthitiù svätma-darçanamätma-nirdvayäd ätma-niñöhatä

Being the Self is knowing the Self, because thereis only one Self, and not two. This Being and knowing the Self is abiding in the Reality.



Now, with this, i want to share the following from the Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna. i am not sure, if it has already been posted b Sri Ravi, but, i post it here, as it is very much of relevance.

Favourable conditions for realization of God


"To attain God a man must have certain favourable conditions: the company of holy men, discrimination, and the blessings of a real teacher. Perhaps his elder brother takes the responsibility for the family; perhaps his wife has spiritual qualities and is very virtuous; perhaps he is not married at all or entangled in worldly life. He succeeds when conditions like these are fulfilled.

"In a certain family a man lay seriously ill. He was at the point of death. Someone said: 'Here is a remedy: First it must rain when the star Svati is in the ascendant; then some of that rain-water must collect in a human skull; then a frog must come there and a snake must chase it; and as the frog is about to be bitten by the snake, it must jump away and the poison of the snake must drop into the skull. You must prepare a medicine from this poison and give it to the patient. Then he will live.' The head of the family consulted the almanac about the star and set out at the right moment. With great longing of heart he began to search for the different ingredients. He prayed to God, 'O Lord, I shall succeed only if You bring together all the
ingredients.' As he was roaming about he actually saw a skull lying on the ground. Presently there came a shower of rain.
Then the man exclaimed: 'O gracious Lord, I have got the rain-water under Svati, and the skull too. What is more, some of the rain has fallen into the skull. Now be kind enough to bring together the other ingredients.' He was reflecting with a yearning heart when he saw a poisonous snake approaching. His joy knew no bounds. He became so excited that he could feel the thumping of his own heart. 'O God,' he prayed, 'now the snake has come too. I have procured most of the ingredients. Please be gracious and give me the remaining ones.' No sooner did he pray thus than a frog hopped up. The snake pursued it. As they came near the skull and the snake was about to bite the frog, the frog jumped over the skull and the snake's poison fell
into it. The man began to dance, clapping his hands for joy. So I say that one gets everything through yearning.

"A man cannot realize God unless he renounces everything mentally. A sādhu cannot lay things up. 'Birds and wandering monks do not make provision for the morrow.' Such is the state of my mind that I cannot carry even clay in my hand. Once, when Hriday tormented me, I thought of leaving this place and going to Benares. I thought of taking some clothes with me. But how could I take money? So I could not go to Benares. (All laugh.)

(To Mahima) "You are a householder. Therefore you should hold bothto 'this' and to 'that'-both to the world and to God."

MAHlMA: "Sir, can one who holds to 'that' also hold to 'this'?"

MASTER: "Once, sitting on the bank of the Ganges neat the Panchavati, holding a rupee in one hand and clay in the other, I discriminated, 'The rupee is the clay-the clay is verily the rupee, and the rupee is verily the clay', and then threw the rupee into the river. But I was a little frightened. 'How foolish of me to offend the goddess of fortune!' I thought. 'What shall I do if she doesn't provide me with food any more?' Then, like Hazra, I sought help in a ruse. I said to the goddess, 'Mother, may you dwell in my heart.' Once the Divine Mother was pleased with a man's austerities and said to him, 'You may ask a favour of Me.' 'O Mother,' said he, 'if You are so pleased. with me, then grant that I may eat from a gold plate with my grandchildren.' Now, in one boon the man got everything: grandchildren, wealth, and gold plate. (All laugh.)

"When the mind is freed from 'woman and gold', it can be directed to God and become absorbed in Him. It is the bound alone who can be freed.

The moment the mind 'turns away from God, it is bound. When does the lower needle of a pair of scales move away from the upper one? When one pan is pressed down by a weight. 'Woman and gold' is the weight.

"Why does a child cry on coming out of its mother's womb? With its cry it says, as it were: 'Just see where I am now! In my mother's womb I was meditating on the Lotus Feet of God; but see where I am now!'

(To Mahima) "You should renounce mentally. Live the life of a house holder in a spirit of detachment."

MAHIMA: "Can a man live in the world if his mind is once directed to God?"

Prostrations to Bhagavan
मनश्चेन्न लग्नं गुरोरंघ्रिपद्मे ततः किं ततः किं ततः किं ततः किम् ।।

Manaschenna lagnam Gurorangri padme, Thatha kim Thathah Kim, Thathah kim Thathah kim

If the mind does not remain at the Lotus feet of Guru, What is the use? What is the use? What is the use!!

Subramanian.R

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #130 on: May 20, 2012, 10:31:28 AM »
Dear Nagaraj, ramana

Yes. One should understand Atma  Vichara intellectually. And then understand that one cannot do Atma Vichara by intellect and mind.
Sri Bhagavan says it is like sleepless sleep. In deep sleep, there is no entry for the mind and intellect and also for names and forms.
In deep sleep one even does not his own name!  Realization is like deep sleep but fully aware of the Self. That is why Sri Bhagavan,
when He left Madurai, could not even sign His name in the parting note. Many times Sri Bhagavan illustrated this in Tiruvannamalai.
Once someone came to see Him in Virupaksha Cave. He could not recognize Him since He was building a small wall with mud and water.
He asked: Where is Sri Ramana Maharshi? He did not answer. The poor man left the place. On the way back, he met Echammal. He asked her: Where is Sri Ramana Maharshi? Echammal took him again and showed Sri Bhagavan to him. She then asked Him: Bhagavan! How can you deceive that person? Sri Bhagavan said: Who is Ramana Maharshi. People call me by a variety of names. Which name do I have to say as mine?

On another occasion, someone came with a paper where many had given their name and signature for having lent money to that lady for
building a small house.  Sri Bhagavan even after persuasion did not sign. Poor lady! She returned disappointed. The devotees asked Him: Why not you write your name, Bhagavan? Sri Bhagavan said: What name do I have as my own? Even the vessels in the kitchen have got the name Ramana engraved. What name shall I sign?

Even on the commission of enquiry's note prepared after questioning Him, He simply put a dash and no name.

On a couple of rare occasions, He signed as Arunachala.  Arunachala is Bhagavan. Bhagavan is Arunachala.

Arunachala Siva.                   

srkudai

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #131 on: May 20, 2012, 12:52:52 PM »
Dear Subramanian,
         :) Did you not say [several times] earlier that Atma Vichara is done with the mind alone ?
or am i mistaken ?

Subramanian.R

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #132 on: May 20, 2012, 01:08:22 PM »
Dear srkudai,

The study about Atma Vichara is done by mind. The initial question Who am I? is done by mind. Thereafter what is needed is
only Sraddha, attention. Sri Bhagavan calls it as thuppaRivu - in Verse 46 of Sri AAMM. thuppaRivu means the power of self
inquiry with attention alone.  One should be lion hearted to  pursue that attention, Verse 45 of Sri AAMM.

Sri Bhagavan clarifies further in Verse 44 of Sri AAMM:

Turn within and uninturruptedly see yourself with an introverted mind and it will be revealed, thus you told me, Oh, Arunachala!

Sri Bhagavan says in Verse 5 of Sri Arunachala Ashtakam, how the mind is used in the beginning.

....If like a gem that is cut and polished, the separate mind is whetted on the grindstone of the pure Universal Mind, it will
acquire the light of your grace and shine like a ruby, whose brightness is not flawed by any other object. When once the Sun
has fallen on a sensitive plate, will the plate register another picture? Apart from you O Aruna Hill, does any other thing
exist.

When the outward turning mind become inward turned, then it gets the Light of the Self and becomes Pure Mind, as Nagaraj
said in his earlier post. The Pure Mind is the Self.

So mind is employed only in the beginning, that is while questioning and thereafter it loses its role. Who am I? becomes an
answer less question once the Self is realized.

Arunachala Siva.             

Ravi.N

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #133 on: May 20, 2012, 01:15:23 PM »
Subramanian,
Do you practice Vichara?
You are saying:
"So mind is employed only in the beginning, that is while questioning and thereafter it loses its role. Who am I? becomes an
answer less question once the Self is realized."
Where is the question of 'Question' when the self is realized? :)
Self-Enquiry is done with the mind as are other forms of Sadhana.Sraddha or Diligence is also of the mind.Attention is also of the mind.Awareness is the nature of Self.
Namaskar.

Subramanian.R

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #134 on: May 20, 2012, 02:16:28 PM »
Dear Ravi,

In the beginning as I told in my previous post, the question is asked by the miind.  There is no point in keeping on questioning
and getting answers of a variety. I am not the panchendriyas. I am not the prana, etc., etc,  Finally when the mind turns inward
there is only self attention, sraddha. There is no question. Sraddha needs only a continuous looking within. There is no mind.
There is no thought. When the inward turned courageous continues the self attention, the Self is realized.

Sri Bhagavan says: When camphor burns, no residue is left. The mind must be like the camphor. It must melt away and be wholly
consumed by the earnest resolve to find and be the real Self.  By this resolve the 'Who am I?' quest become efficacious. When 
the mind is thus consumed - where no trace of mind is left - it has become resolved into the Self."

I have been practicing since five months Who am I? Earlier I had been only praying and try to work out self surrender. Now
I am doing both. Both are complimentary to each other. They are the two sides of the same coin.

Sri Bhagavan says in Verse 69 of Sri AAMM:

poomana mAmanam pooraNa maNam kolap
pooraNa maNam aruL Arunachala.

My mind is now fragrant like a blossom.*  Add your perfect fragrance** to it and make it Infinite O Arunachala!       

* Sattva manas or Suddha manas. Only persons with Sattvic dispositions can proceed further.
** perfect fragrance is aruL. Grace. Without Grace, Self Inquiry cannot become successful.

Arunahcala Siva.