Author Topic: Fundamental question about Mind!  (Read 164542 times)

Subramanian.R

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #135 on: May 20, 2012, 02:29:44 PM »
Dear ravi, srkudai,

Read this wonderful portion from Talks No. 99:

A sannyasi asked:  It is said that the Self is beyond the mind and yet the realization is with the mind. Mano na manute, Manasa
na matam, and Manasivedamaptavayam - The Mind cannot think. It cannot be thought of by the mind and the mind alone can realize it.
How are these contradictions to be reconciled?

Maharshi: atman is realized with mruta manas (dead mind), i.e. the mind devoid of thoughts and turned inward. Then the mind
sees its own source and  becomes That. It is not as the subject perceiving an object.

When the room is dark a lamp is necessary to illumine and eyes to cognize objects. But when the Sun is risen there is no need
for a lamp, and the objects are seen; and to see the Sun, no lamp is necessary. It is enough if you turn your eyes towards the
self luminous sun.

Similarly with the mind. to see the objects the reflected light of the mind is necessary. (Mind gets the reflected light from Atma).
To  see the Heart it is enough that the mind is turned towards it. Then the mind loses itself and the Heart shines forth.

Arunachala Siva.       

Subramanian.R

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #136 on: May 20, 2012, 02:36:57 PM »
Dear Ravi, srkudai,

Also see this from Talks No. 100:

Sri Bhagavan quoted from Kaivalya Navaneetam some verses and explained.

.........

The modes of mind take shape as external objects and the light reflected on the modes illumines the objects. Now neglecting
the modes of mind, look for the light illumining them. The mind becomes still and the light remains self shining. The undulating mind
(i.e. mind associated with rajas and tamas) commonly known as the mind. Devoid of rajas and tamas, it is pure and self shining.
This is Self Realization. That is why the mind is said to be the means of it.

.........
.........

Arunachala Siva.

Ravi.N

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #137 on: May 20, 2012, 02:40:57 PM »
Subramanian,
I do not practice 'Self Enquiry' ,yet I intuit what it means-It is not a 'question' at all.It just means simply staying with the 'I' feeling and rejecting every other movement of the mind by asking 'For whom is this movement?thus returning the attention to the 'I' feeling-In this way the mind comes to rest in the source of Being.The same is effected by Devotion as well .As long as there is the tendency of the mind to run away from the centre of Being ,there and then the attention is again and again brought to bear on the 'I' Feeling;This is to be diligently pursued until there is abidance(short term initially) and all this is carried out by the mind only.Other than the mind,there is no instrument to carry on sadhana.
Saranagathi cannot be Practised!When there is Love,there is spontaneous giving of oneself-this is saranagathi.
Here is an excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
Love and prayer
A BRAHMO DEVOTEE: "Sir, what is the way?"
MASTER: "Attachment to God, or, in other words, love for Him. And secondly, prayer."
BRAHMO DEVOTEE: "Which one is the way-love or prayer?"
MASTER: "First love, and then prayer."

How does one acquire 'Love'?Through association with the Great devotees.Love cannot be studied!There is no 'How' about it!One has to catch it like one catches cold by staying near someone who sneezes!
Namaskar.

Subramanian.R

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #138 on: May 20, 2012, 02:41:17 PM »
Dear Ravi, srkudai,

The following is the story of Sri Ramakrishna.  Perhaps he might have said that in some other context. But it is appropriate also
in respect of mind and Atmavichara.

A mother gives a list to her son for buying a few things, like a pound of fish, mustard oil, chilli powder etc., The son goes
to the bazaar and buys these things as per the list. Thereafter where is the need for the list given by mother? He is tearing
it off. It is no longer necessary.

Arunachala Siva. 

Subramanian.R

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #139 on: May 20, 2012, 02:51:07 PM »
Dear Ravi,

As you say 'rejecting other movements' of mind is also a Vedantic practice, neti, neti....But however much the neti is done,
the asti cannot be found out. Neti should stop to find the Asti. Self Inquiry does not proceed with neti marga. Though Sri
Bhagavan said this in Who am I? to M. Pillai.

Regarding surrender, as you correctly said, it cannot proceed without love of god and prayers to Him, first for worldly
benefits and in due course, only to merge at His feet.  Love of god is the pre-requisite though I did not mention it before.
Surrender is practiced in the sense, constantly praying to Him and then telling simultaneously Nin ishtam, en ishtam. Your wish
is my wish. I have no separate wish to spell out. All that happens to me is your wish.

Arunachala Siva.
     
       

Ravi.N

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #140 on: May 20, 2012, 02:57:55 PM »
Subramanian,
Please return to the question-Is Self Enquiry done by the Mind?
Yes or No?
The answer is a categorical 'Yes'.All Sadhana has to employ the mind,there is no escaping this fundamental fact.

Coming to what Sri Ramakrishna said,this is what it is:
Mere study of scriptures is futile
The pundit had studied the Vedas and the other scriptures. He loved to discuss philosophy.
The Master, seated on the couch, cast his benign look on the pundit and gave him counsel
through parables.
MASTER (to the pundit): "There are many scriptures like the Vedas. But one cannot realize
God without austerity and spiritual discipline. 'God cannot be found in the six systems, the
Vedas, or the Tantra.'
"But one should learn the contents of the scriptures and then act according to their
injunctions. A man lost a letter. He couldn't remember where he had left it. He began to
search for it with a lamp. After two or three people had searched, the letter was at last
found. The message in the letter was: 'Please send us five seers of sandesh and a piece of
wearing-cloth.' The man read it and then threw the letter away. There was no further need
of it; now all he had to do was to buy the five seers of sandesh and the piece of cloth.
Reading, hearing, and seeing
"Better than reading is hearing, and better than hearing is seeing. One understands the
scriptures better by hearing them from the lips of the guru or of a holy man. Then one
doesn't have to think about their non-essential part.

Hanuman said: 'Brother, I don't know much about the phase of the moon or the position of
the stars. I just contemplate Rama.'
"But seeing is far better than hearing. Then all doubts disappear. It is true that many things
are recorded in the scriptures; but all these are useless without the direct realization of God,
without devotion to His Lotus Feet, without purity of heart. The almanac forecasts the
rainfall of the year. But not a drop of water will you get by squeezing the almanac. No, not
even one drop
.
"How long should one reason about the texts of the scriptures? So long as one does not
have direct realization of God. How long does the bee buzz about? As long as it is not
sitting on a flower. No sooner does it light on a flower and begin to sip honey than it keeps
quiet
."

What the Master is saying is to avoid 'proxy sadhana' through mere study and scholarship, and goads one to do actual sadhana.He never said that mind is not required for sadhana.He is asking the mind to walk the Talk.
Namaskar.

Ravi.N

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #141 on: May 20, 2012, 03:10:22 PM »
subramanian,
"As you say 'rejecting other movements' of mind is also a Vedantic practice, neti, neti....But however much the neti is done,
the asti cannot be found out."

Neti,Neti is to understand the impermanent as impermanent ,the fleeting as fleeting.It is this understanding that automatically rejects what has to be rejected.You cannot say that it is not effective.This is how Annamalai swami did his sadhana and I have atleast 10 letters from him recommending this. :)
In Self Enquiry ,the rejection is effected by turning the attention back to the 'I' feeling.In both the rejection of thoughts is involved.
If the Interest or love is there,rejection is automatic.This is so in ordinary life as well;If the Cricket match is being watched on TV all other things are rejected,including even Lunch!
This is how Sri Ramakrishna speaks about this:
"He who has developed such yoga can see God. In the theatre the audience remains
engaged in all kinds of conversation, about home, office, and school, till the curtain goes
up; but no sooner does it go up than all conversation comes to a stop, and the people watch
the play with fixed attention
.

Namaskar.


Subramanian.R

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #142 on: May 20, 2012, 03:33:36 PM »
Dear Ravi,

I do not agree with you. Mind is employed only in the beginning and thereafter it has no role.

See this passage from The Path of Ramana, Part I, by Sri Sadhu Om:

"What then is the practical method of doing Self Inquiry? Why is this term Self Inquiry found in the sastras?" Are we not
to scrutinize and find out? Let us do so.

There is a DIFFERENCE in the sense in which the term 'inquiry' is used by Sri Bhagavan and the way in which the term 'inquiry'
in which the sastras use it. The sastras advocate negating the five sheaths, namely the body, prana, mind, intellect and the
darkness of ignorance as 'not I, not I' (neti neti). But who is to negate them, and how? If the mind (or the intellect) is to negate
them, IT CAN AT BEST NEGATE ONLY THE INSENTIENT PHYSICAL BODY AND THE PRANA, which are objects seen by it. Beyond this,
how can the mind negate ITSELF, ITS OWN FORM? And when it cannot even negate itself, how can it negate the other two sheaths
viz., the intellect (vijnanamaya kosa and the darkness of ignorance (anandamaya kosa), which are beyond its range of perception?
During the time of inquiry, therefore, what more can the mind do to remain as Self except to repeat mentally, 'I am not the body,
I not this prana.'  From this it is clear, that inquiry is not a process of one thing inquiring about another thing. That is why the inquiry,
Who am I? taught by Sri Bhagavan should be taken to mean SELF ATTENTION (that is, merely to the first person, the feeling  'I'.

The nature of the mind is to attend always to things other than itself, that is, to know only the second and third persons. If the mind
in this way attends to a thing, it means that it is clinging, attaching itself, to that thing. ATTENTION ITSELF IS ATTACHMENT. Since
the mind is to think about the body and prana, -- though with the intention of deciding 'this is not, this is not' such attention is only
a means of becoming attached to them and it cannot be a means of negating them! This is what is experienced by any true aspirant                 
in his practice. Then what is the secret hidden in this?

Since, whether we know it or not, Self which is now wrongly considered by us to be unknown, is verily our Reality, the very
nature of our Supreme Self's attention itself is Grace (anugraha). This means that whatever thing we attend to, witness, observe,
or look at, that thing is nourished and will flourish, being blessed by Grace. Though one now thinks that one is an individual soul, since
one's own power of attention is in fact nothing but a reflection of the knowing power - Chit Sakti of Self, that on which it falls or is
fixed is nourished by Grace and flourishes more and more!

Hence, when the power of attention of the mind is directed more and more towards the second and third person objects, both the
strength (kriya bala) to attend to those objects of ignorance - the five sense knowledges in the form of thoughts about them - will grow more and more and will never subside.

That is why it is impossible for the mind to negate anything by thinking.  On the other hand if our Self's attention is directed only
towards ourself, our knowledge of existence alone is nourished, and since the mind is not attended to, it is deprived of its strength, the support of Grace. As they are not attended to, all the vasana seeds, whose nature is to rise stealthily and mischievously, have to stay quiet. And thus they dry up like seeds deprived of water. Then when the fire of Self Knowledge blazes forth, these tendencies become prey to it.

The ancient methods say, Drink the medicine without thinking of monkey! Sri Bhagavan says Drink the medicine as you think of
the elephant. He has thus reformed the ancient negative method by giving us the positive method - Who am I?

When sought within 'What is the place from which it rises as I, I (the ego or the mind) will die! This is Self Inquiry, Jnana vichara.

-Upadesa Undiyar verse 10.

Arunachala Siva.                     

Ravi.N

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #143 on: May 20, 2012, 03:43:55 PM »
R.Subramanian,
"I do not agree with you. Mind is employed only in the beginning and thereafter it has no role."

Please forget all quotations.What do you mean by Beginning?If the mind has no role,What else has any role?what happens to the Sadhana?Do you mean to say that sadhana stops?

Namaskar.

Subramanian.R

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #144 on: May 20, 2012, 04:05:01 PM »
Dear Ravi,

I mean that the mind is employed in the beginning, in the sense, that the Who am ? questioning is done by the mind. Many many times
unsuccessfully and finally successfully to go further beyond for which mind is no longer necessary.

Arunachala Siva.
 

Subramanian.R

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #145 on: May 20, 2012, 04:09:49 PM »
Dear Ravi, srkudai,


Talks No. 253:

Devotee:  How is the mind to dive into the Heart?

Maharshi: The mind now sees itself diversified as the universe. If the diversity is not manifest it remains in its own essence.
That is the Heart. Entering the Heart means remaining without distractions.  The Heart is the only Reality. The mind is only
a transient phase. To remain as one's Self is to enter the Heart.

Arunachala Siva.   

Nagaraj

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #146 on: May 20, 2012, 04:10:42 PM »
Dear i,

kindly bear with my impertinence in both, your discussion. But, am just letting out my views in air. Who is the employer of mind, who uses the mind to commence self enquiry, is the mind different from you?

you are only the mind and you are only the self as well. there is no difference between, there is only one.

Just like how we call the same ___ as baby, child, youth, adult, old all is one and the same.

What is always is oneself, that oneself sports himself as mind and commences the quest, that very self, discerns there is no mind, and that very self also discerns there is mind as well. It is like this, the baby, child, youth, grown up as youth, old, saying there is no child, no youth, no old, and so on.

That which is discerning all these, is truly disinterested in all these, it itself, does not care so, if it is employing mind or no mind, and so on. It is basically not interested in names and terms that is attributed, it also rejects the term Self as well.

Just musings.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
मनश्चेन्न लग्नं गुरोरंघ्रिपद्मे ततः किं ततः किं ततः किं ततः किम् ।।

Manaschenna lagnam Gurorangri padme, Thatha kim Thathah Kim, Thathah kim Thathah kim

If the mind does not remain at the Lotus feet of Guru, What is the use? What is the use? What is the use!!

Subramanian.R

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #147 on: May 20, 2012, 04:14:12 PM »
Dear Nagaraj,

The employer of the mind is the Self. avananRi or aNuvum asaiyAthu. This mind should to true its Master, viz., the Self.
It should be with Him. It should attend to Him only. On the other hand, if it attends to the world, then it is impure. Pure
Mind attends to the employer and finally merges with the employer. That is why, at the beginning itself when you said,
Pure Mind is Self, I agreed.

Arunachala Siva. 

Ravi.N

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #148 on: May 20, 2012, 04:18:04 PM »
Subramanian,
"He has thus reformed the ancient negative method by giving us the positive method - Who am I?
Bhagavan never reformed anything.I have read sadhu om's book and found it Dogmatic!David also had mentioned this.What has worked for ages before Bhagavan's advent cannot be wished away!Have we tried this?That should be the yardstick ,not whether someone else has said that it will not work.
There is equal sense in what the traditional Vedanta advocates and this is something proven over the milleniums.
The Tirukkural also mentions this:
The Very First verse in 'Thuravu'(Renunciation says:
யாதனின் யாதனின் நீங்கியான் நோதல்
அதனின் அதனின் இலன்

This is how the Rejection happens-any thought is about something that one is attached to,something known only.One cannot think of the unknown.To the extent this Vairagya develops,the rejection power of the mind builds up until it is freed from all attachments and becomes steady.This steady mind is the Self.
This is what Sri Adi Sankara says in Bhaja Govindam:
Satsangathve nissangathvam
Nissangathve nirmohatvam
Nirmohatve Nischala Tatvam
Nischala Tatve Jivan Mukti.

No Self Enquiry is called for! :)

Namaskar.

Subramanian.R

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #149 on: May 20, 2012, 04:24:06 PM »
Dear Ravi, Nagaraj, srkudai,

A few verses from Atma Vichara Padigam of Sri Sadhu Om:-

1. Thinking is a mentation (vritti); being  is not  a mentation!  If inquired 'Who thinks?' thinking will come to an end. Even when
thoughts do not exist, do you not exist? To remain thus in the source of thoughts is the state of Self abidance (atma nishta).
Be thus.

2. He who thinks is the individual soul, Jiva. He who IS is the Supreme Brahman. If the thinker thinks with great love of That
which is STILL, this thought, the love to BE, will become the thought free state which kills all thoughts, to remain surviving him
is the union with the Supreme - Siva Sayujyam.       

3. The reason why this 'I' dies when inquired into, 'What am I?' is as follows:  This thought 'I' is a reflected ray of the Self.
And it alone is directly connected with the Self. Whereas other thoughts are not. So when the attention goes deeper and deeper
the ray 'I', its length decreases more and more and when the ray 'I' dies that which  shines as 'I' is Jnana.

Arunachala Siva.
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