Fundamental question about Mind!

[Subramanian.R]

Dear ramana,

Sri Bhagavan said that the Mind is the condensed body. And the body is the expanded Mind.  That is why, when you dream,
(where only the mind works and not the body), that you are chased by a tiger, then you find on immediate waking up sweat on
the body out of fear.

Sri Bhagavan said two words about mind in Who am I?  mana adakkam = quelling the mind. mano nasam = extinguishing the
mind. Normally mana adakkam is control of thoughts. If this were to be achieved, half the road is covered. Mano nasam takes
place when if the attention towards the Self is complete where the mind goes back to its source and not to jump out again.

mana adakkam paves the way for mano nasam.

Muruganar in Guru Vachaka Kovai  mentions both suddha manas (pure mind) and dead mind (mind that has been killed).

Arunachala Siva.     

[Nagaraj]

Dear i,

yes, one has to exercise restraint, but, i would like to bring to light a paradigm shift here, one has to strive constantly to repose as Self, strive to restraint the emergence of the 'i' thought, then and there, and, not giving into or losing oneself here.

As one constantly strives to restrain oneself to self, that is the true understand of YogaschittaVritti Nirodhah of Patanjali Yoga Sutras, as well.

As Bhagavan says in Who am I, when other thoughts arise we should being back our attention to the 'i' thought. All the time ones' attention should unwaveringly be directed to the feeling of 'i' or the 'i' thought. If attention wavers to other thoughts, even if it be anything, one should draw it back to the 'i' by remembering that these are only 'my thoughts'

Hence true purport of restraint is only this - attention would return to the fundamental enquiry 'Who am i' and remain only fixedely on the 'i' in order to discover its nature. And this process has to be repeated as often as attention moves away from the center, which is 'i'

When Restraint, Control is thus, made by striving to repose in Self, is alone the true discernment of Bhagavan's direct way. But the same restrain, control in order to stop some habit is not going to be of much help, really, one has to go to the roots of all vasananas, pre dispositions in the above manner as revealed by Bhagavan.

Restraint, control has to result in reposing within, and not other wise.

Salutations to Bhagavan

[Hari]

The mind, my friends, is very strange topic for me. I have heard almost anything about it.

1. It is your best friend
2. It is your enemy
3. It is the world
4. It is Saguna Brahman
5. It is unreal
6. It is Shakti
7. It must be killed
8. It must be perfected
9. We must use it to help to all creatures we can
10. We must do everything possible to destroy it
11. We must train it to serve God
12. We must leave it to do what it is going to do and just to watch its actions

and so on

Actually what we can say about mind? What is the truth about mind? I think that all our life will be not enough to discover all its mystery.

[Nagaraj]

Dear i,

what you have heard is all fine But who are you? that alone is important, why mind the mind? like Bhagavan asks? Who are you which has observed the following? are you different from the Mind? or is Mind different from you?

Until you realise your true nature, knowing all else is futile. Who am I - this alone is the only agenda, if one is inclined to Bhagavan's way of teaching. All else is only digression.

It is not important to know the mind as much as knowing Thyself. If the knower is not known, who is to know what mind is? who is the knower? what is to be know follows only after this!

Prostrations to Bhagavan

[Hari]

Dear Nagaraj,

I think we must not divide Gurus. What Bhagavan Ramana teaches is the same what Bhagavan Ramakrishna does, am I right? And the followers of Bhagavan are different. He Himself has said that not everyone is ready for this direct method which He called Atma-vichara. He has prescribed many methods for the different people who have came to Him. Atma-vichara is just most unique part of His teaching which has became something like a Symbol of Lord Ramana. Our purpose is to find the Reality and to realize what is our place in It. That is the teaching of all Great Masters.

[Nagaraj]

Dear i,

i have not meant division of Gurus in my post, when i said if you are inclined towards Bhagavan's teaching, it is meant as inclination towards Vichara Marga. Division occurs only with regard to the forms.

Prostrations to Bhagavan

[Hari]

Dear Nagaraj,

that's what I mean. What is Bhagavan teaching? It is to realize the Goal of what all India's scriptures teach. And this is the purpose of all genuine Gurus. Bhagavan is not different. It is just our inclination to His Personality that make Him special for us. All Gurus are One Guru is He is within known as the Self, God, Brahman. That's one of the teachings of Bhagavan Ramana that has left deep traces in my mind and my heart, to not divide anything.

[Nagaraj]

Dear i,

Pardon me, but you are too stuck with intricacies, with a little too much judgement, that truth should not be like this like that, differences of Gurus, it is all very well known, but you fail to look at the main issue, and contemplate on the real issue, rather you are stuck with paraphernalia, but, in all these, you fail to look within.

with this, i feel, we cannot have a meaningful dialogue or discussion. if we have to say each time specifically that this teaching is not Bhagavan's teaching, teaching is eternal, belongs to no one guru, all teachings of Gurus are one and the same, then, it is plain digression.

we have passed two posts meaninglessly, with unnecessary dialogues which is really needless. the jnana is there within everybody not to divide things, but to take it to such extremes is a stepping stone.

Do you want to pass away 4 5 posts for me to just agree saying 'yes, we should not divide anything' i am at total loss to figure out myself, what have i divided in my post or, we all may have to put a disclaimer at the signature below each post, that we do not mean to divide gurus and teachings, etc... don't you thinks its such a digression from the real issue?

anyway, best wishes!

Prostrations to Bhagavan

[Ravi.N]

Subramanian,

"Sri Bhagavan said that the Mind is the condensed body. And the body is the expanded Mind"

Where did Bhagavan say this?What is meant by this?

Namaskar.

[Hari]

Dear Nagaraj,

no, it is not digression. We talk about mind and what we must to do with it. You say that we must find out its source. OK, agree. But meanwhile we must not do anything? Must not try to make him more and more convergent than divergent? To change it in the manner which is not suitable to our spiritual sadhana? To just say "find out the source, find out the source" is not very practical. Can you just keep finding without doing nothing other? I am not trying to lead a meaningless conversation. What's the point? I was just trying to open a topic which to deal with the mind and what's the best way to look at it with well well-founded opinions and quotes. I am not here to lose my time or to argue just because I like it. I thought that after so many months in this forum you know at least this about me.

P.S. I don't judge anyone about anything. But if it is so then it's pity for me.

[srkudai]

Dear Ramana1359,
           

Nice post. Please follow the discussion below and see how the whole thing falls in place...
Mind : in sanskrit , is called "antahkarana", inner instrument. it has four functions: Buddhi, Manas, Cittam, Ahamkarah. There is just one inner instrument, with four functions. When the mind takes the form of sankalpa-vikalpas / thinking about a thing & doubting etc thats "Manas" - mind. When the same antahkarana takes the form of decisions that is "Buddhi/intellect". When it takes the form of "Memory or remembering" its chittam and when it appears in the form of "Aham karta, i am the doer" ... its ahamkara.

So I start from home to airport ... and on the way I get a doubt. "Did I lock my house ?" that is mind, manas.
So this keeps on bothering me ... and then i go home, see if it is locked ... and now i know "its locked" ... Buddhi, Intellect.

Do we see this much ?

Now, this whole thing is instrument ... inner instrument. What ever we have fed into it come out. When the doubt "Did I lock my house? " arises, my buddhi decides what to do . The Buddhi may itself become "wavering" or it may say "Chup! Keep still. You locked".  So Buddhi can function in both ways. Do we see that ?
When Buddhi is not able to decide, it means mind has taken over the Buddhi.
And when Buddhi is decisive, clear and still ... it means Buddhi has taken over mind.

So control of mind means ... who controls mind? The Buddhi controls manas. Thats very important.
Someone is studying something and the manas/mind says "Lets stop studying, this is boring". And at this stage "Buddhi" has to take over and say "Shut up! We decided to study, so study now!"

We put an alarm to wake up at 5 am, then the mind says "Ah, Lets sleep for some more time" and thats when Buddhi has to come into picture and say "Did we not decide to wake up at this time ? " and enforce its law upon the mind. This is when we say Mind is under control. This is important, very much so.

But then a more important question arises. If Mind keeps saying something and i have to decide against it constantly, is that not a tussle ? A constant effort ? Anytime the buddhi is relaxed, the mind will take over!! so what to do now ? The answer is ... purification of mind . Though mind jumps, it is always under the "Control" of Buddhi. Ultimately Buddhi is the decider. Manas simply prompts. So Buddhi has to be purified so that the mind will not be able to "Control it". When Buddhi is purified, the manas no more has a control over it, there may still be suggestions, but none of them have the power.

There are two kinds of impurities of mind: mala & vikshepa. mala is mental impurities like raga-dveshas. And vikshepa is tendency to jump here and there. When both these are eventually nullified, the mind remains "Stay Put, where it IS", thats called Mano-nashanam.

Mind has to be brought into control, and it has to be totally vanquished... if i sit here, the mind should remain "Absolutely Still... Here"!! it should not keep jumping about [thats absence of vikshepa]
and then tehre should not be any push and pull towards anyone [no mala]
and thus, one remains Free, effortlessly. thats Mano-nashanam.

My first post after returning and its really become long

[Nagaraj]

no, it is not digression. We talk about mind and what we must to do with it. You say that we must find out its source. OK, agree. But meanwhile we must not do anything? Must not try to make him more and more convergent than divergent? To change it in the manner which is not suitable to our spiritual sadhana? To just say "find out the source, find out the source" is not very practical. Can you just keep finding without doing nothing other? I am not trying to lead a meaningless conversation. What's the point? I was just trying to open a topic which to deal with the mind and what's the best way to look at it with well well-founded opinions and quotes. I am not here to lose my time or to argue just because I like it. I thought that after so many months in this forum you know at least this about me.

P.S. I don't judge anyone about anything. But if it is so then it's pity for me.

I differ fundamentally, the way i see is like this - it is we who have to become convergent not the Guru. We have to bend our knees and surrender to Him, not make Him convergent to us. Practicality is not a reason to avoid finding the source, we cant bend the truth for our convenience rather we ought to bend and reach his Lotus feet.

Dear i, i have not hard feelings, yes, there are some hot words exchanged between us, still my friend, we hold hands.

Prostrations to Bhagavan

[Subramanian.R]

Dear Ravi,

Talks No. 328:

Devotee: The mind is said to be from the brain.

Maharshi: Where is the brain? It is in the body. I say that BODY ITSELF IS A PROJECTION OF THE MIND. You speak of the
brain, when you think of the body. It is the mind which creates the body, the brain in it and also ascertains that the brain
is its seat.

Talks No. 396:

Maharshi: Where or how were you before being born? Were you in deep sleep? How were you? You exist then to without
the body. Then the ego arises, and then the mind which projects the body. ......... THE BODY IS A MENTAL PROJECTION. THE MIND
IS THE EGO. AND THE EGO RISES FROM THE SELF. ........

There could be many more places where Sri Bhagavan had given this idea/truth.
I am not readily able to track them. Perhaps in Maharshi's Gospel.
 
Arunachala Siva.         

[Subramanian.R]

Swapna skalitham - semen discharge, happens when the mind dreams of some sexual things. The result is transferred to the body.

Arunachala Siva. 

[Nagaraj]

Dear i,

Pardon me, but you are too stuck with intricacies, with a little too much judgement, that truth should not be like this like that, differences of Gurus, it is all very well known, but you fail to look at the main issue, and contemplate on the real issue, rather you are stuck with paraphernalia, but, in all these, you fail to look within.

with this, i feel, we cannot have a meaningful dialogue or discussion. if we have to say each time specifically that this teaching is not Bhagavan's teaching, teaching is eternal, belongs to no one guru, all teachings of Gurus are one and the same, then, it is plain digression.

we have passed two posts meaninglessly, with unnecessary dialogues which is really needless. the jnana is there within everybody not to divide things, but to take it to such extremes is a stepping stone.

Do you want to pass away 4 5 posts for me to just agree saying 'yes, we should not divide anything' i am at total loss to figure out myself, what have i divided in my post or, we all may have to put a disclaimer at the signature below each post, that we do not mean to divide gurus and teachings, etc... don't you thinks its such a digression from the real issue?

anyway, best wishes!

Prostrations to Bhagavan

Dear i,

my apologies for being harsh. it was needless on my part. that was not the right way to put across my views, and i regret it, i could have been sweeter, better!

cheers.

prostrations to Bhagavan