Author Topic: Fundamental question about Mind!  (Read 164528 times)

Nagaraj

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #150 on: May 20, 2012, 04:28:36 PM »
Dear i,

i actually find, both of you right, seeing from each others eyes.

Infact, when you said the following:

Quote
The employer of the mind is the Self, avananRi or aNuvum asaiyAthu.

there is really no ignorance at all :) do you see this paradox? the Self is revealed, already, ever illumining! without your, ones own will, one cannot even commence self enquiry.

Next again, when you mentioned:

Quote
This mind should to true its Master, viz., the Self. It should be with Him. It should attend to Him only.

After the above, previous discernment, how can oneself attend to oneself,  how can oneself be with oneself, because, one already is, by default, yet again paradox of Truth! :)

Next, when you mentioned:

Quote
On the other hand, if it attends to the world, then it is impure. Pure Mind attends to the employer and finally merges with the employer. That is why, at the beginning itself when you said, Pure Mind is Self, I agreed.

Dear i, let me present yet another paradox of truth here. firstly we all observed very glaringly - The employer of the mind is the Self, avananRi or aNuvum asaiyAthu. Now, can that Self, all knowing, which itself employs Self Enquiry to know itself, can it ever get impure? What a brilliant paradox, Dear i :) do you appreciate this glaring truth? The Self which is all knowing, which employs some method to know itself is meaningless :)

i just cannot be, from appreciating the play of the Self, there is no ignorance at all! One need not even try to "just be" "Summa Iruthal" one is by default Self.

What is truly required is nothing. All the accumulated knowledge, experience and suffering of mankind is inside of us. we must build a huge bonfire within us and end it, just like killing a person in a dream. Both the husband (knowledge) And the wife (ignorance) lose their lives When each cuts off the other’s head.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
मनश्चेन्न लग्नं गुरोरंघ्रिपद्मे ततः किं ततः किं ततः किं ततः किम् ।।

Manaschenna lagnam Gurorangri padme, Thatha kim Thathah Kim, Thathah kim Thathah kim

If the mind does not remain at the Lotus feet of Guru, What is the use? What is the use? What is the use!!

Ravi.N

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #151 on: May 20, 2012, 04:40:52 PM »
Subramanian,
Is Mind to be employed in Self-Enquiry?Digressions do not help to squarely answer this question.However much we may bring theory to the contrary,we cannot escape facts. :)
This is what Sri Bhagavan states:The mind will only subside by means of the enquiry 'Who am I?' The thought 'Who am I?', destroying all other thoughts, will itself be finally destroyed like the stick used for stirring the funeral pyre.

It is amply clear that until this final destruction(and not just in the Begining!),the mind(as the thought 'who am I ') is deployed only.We may not like to agree and that is okay. :)

Namaskar.

Ravi.N

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #152 on: May 20, 2012, 04:57:46 PM »
Subramanian/Nagaraj/Friends,
"avananRi or aNuvum asaiyAthu"(Without him not an atom moves)

AvanaRi Or anu eDhu? :)(Where is the Atom apart from him, that it should move with his will!)

So,if we consider the mind,i.e the 'embodied state' as separate,until we resolve this ,sadhana has to continue and Mind has to be deployed,until the state of seeming seperation is resolved into the whole.

Namaskar.

Nagaraj

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #153 on: May 20, 2012, 05:03:49 PM »
"avananRi or aNuvum asaiyAthu"(Without him not an atom moves)

AvanaRi Or anu eDhu? :)(Where is the Atom apart from him, that it should move with his will!)

So,if we consider the mind,i.e the 'embodied state' as separate,until we resolve this ,sadhana has to continue and Mind has to be deployed,until the state of seeming seperation is resolved into the whole.

Dear i,

:D am enjoying this, only He Himself has to move and He Himself has to remain still, for Himself, by Himself.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
मनश्चेन्न लग्नं गुरोरंघ्रिपद्मे ततः किं ततः किं ततः किं ततः किम् ।।

Manaschenna lagnam Gurorangri padme, Thatha kim Thathah Kim, Thathah kim Thathah kim

If the mind does not remain at the Lotus feet of Guru, What is the use? What is the use? What is the use!!

Nagaraj

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #154 on: May 20, 2012, 05:08:08 PM »
:D and moreover, where can That move? Where is space for Space to move?

Prostrations to Bhagavan
मनश्चेन्न लग्नं गुरोरंघ्रिपद्मे ततः किं ततः किं ततः किं ततः किम् ।।

Manaschenna lagnam Gurorangri padme, Thatha kim Thathah Kim, Thathah kim Thathah kim

If the mind does not remain at the Lotus feet of Guru, What is the use? What is the use? What is the use!!

Subramanian.R

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #155 on: May 20, 2012, 05:12:39 PM »
Dear Ravi,

The destruction of the thought Who am I?  finally destroys itself as the stick that burns after the corpse is burnt. I agree.
But here it means that Who am I? question continues. Yes. I agree. The Who am I? question should become answerless.
When it becomes answerless, the Self is attended to and the Self reveals Itself. In other words, as soon as the Who am
I? question stops, the mind has no more work there. Because the Self reveals Itself. That is why it takes a longer time for
some one to experience the Self and for some others it takes shorter time.  This presupposes other things like suddha manas
about which there is no discussion at all.

Coming to the dogmatism of Sri Sadhu Om, every devotee of Sri Bhagavan were dogmatic in some way. Lakshmana Sarma
re-wrote Sad Darsanam, where according to Nochur, meaning and purport were sacrificed for the sake of poetic purity.
The same incident is reported in a different way by different devotees. Sri Annamalai Swami says by the Heart to Heart talk
of Sri Bhagavan with Somerset Maugham, the writer got enlightened. Sri Chadwick poohs poohs this statement. He says
that Maugham was relieved of his travel weariness by the kindness of Sri Bhagavan in visiting him in his room.

Coming to Annamalai Swami, I do not know what exactly he wrote to you in his 10 letters, but if we take Final Talks as the authority
of his views, Annamalai Swami says:

Q: Why does the mind always go outwards instead of inwards?

A.S. Because we don't ask the question, 'Why does the mind go outwards instead of inwards?  This question arises because the
nature of happiness is not properly understood. People are always looking for it in the wrong places and by doing the wrong
activities.  You begin with the impression, which is really misunderstanding, that happiness is something  that can be found
outside. And furthermore, that you have to do something or go somewhere to reach it. This is your illusion. And it is your belief
in this illusion that makes the mind search for happiness in the outside world.     

Even when you are told Happiness is within you as your own Self, LOOK INWARDS AND FIND IT, still you think that you have to
do something or go somewhere to discover it. This is the power of Maya.

When you are not aware that your glasses are resting on your nose, you may look for them all day, thinking that they are lost.
As a consequence, you believe that they are an object to be found. Eventually you were wearing them all the time.

Here the availability of glasses are only by ATTENTION ON THE NOSE. Not by thinking that glasses are on my nose. No thinking
is necessary to find the glasses. Only ATTENTION TOWARDS THE NOSE IS NECESSARY.

Finally as a post script for all these discussions:

Final Talks:

Q:   Does the mind die gradually or suddenly?

Annamalai Swami: One answer is: When the sun rises, does the darkness disappear suddenly or gradually?

Sri Bhagavan, speaking on this topic, once remarked: 'Someone mistakes a rope hanging in the darkness for a snake. He then
asks: How many years it will take for the snake to die?

This is a better answer, adds David:

If the mind does not exist, it cannot die either quickly or slowly!

Upadesa Undiyar:

manathin uruvai maRavAthu usAva
  manam ena onRilai undhipara
mArgam ner Arkum ithu undhipara.

When unceasingly the mind
scans its own form
there is nothing of the kind.
For everyone
this path direct is open.

At one stage, it seems to me,  we are all discussing whether barren woman's child is fair complexioned or dark.

Om Sri Ramanarpanamastu.

Arunachala Siva.             

Subramanian.R

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #156 on: May 20, 2012, 05:14:19 PM »
Dear Ravi and Nagaraj,

That is why Sri Bhagavan corrected this proverb:

avananRi asaiyAthu!

Arunachala Siva.

Nagaraj

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #157 on: May 20, 2012, 05:23:11 PM »
अणोरणीयान् महतो महीयानात्मा गुहायां निहितोSस्य जन्तो:। तमक्रतुं पश्यति वीतशाको धातु: प्रसादान्महिमानमीशम्।

anor aniyan mahato mahiyan atma Guhayaayam nihitoasya Jantoh tamakratuh pasyati vita-soko dhatuh prasadan mahimanamisham

The infinite Self more minute than the minutest and greater than the greatest and is the heart of the beings. He who, free of self desires, realises That, from which, originates everything, sees That, and is freed from all sorrows.

Mahanarayana Upanishad (Section 12, 1)

Prostrations to Bhagavan
« Last Edit: May 20, 2012, 05:25:05 PM by Nagaraj »
मनश्चेन्न लग्नं गुरोरंघ्रिपद्मे ततः किं ततः किं ततः किं ततः किम् ।।

Manaschenna lagnam Gurorangri padme, Thatha kim Thathah Kim, Thathah kim Thathah kim

If the mind does not remain at the Lotus feet of Guru, What is the use? What is the use? What is the use!!

Ravi.N

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #158 on: May 20, 2012, 05:47:55 PM »
Subramanian,
"The Who am I? question should become answerless.
When it becomes answerless, the Self is attended to and the Self reveals Itself"

What do you mean that 'self is attended to'?What is the self that you are alluding to?

Namaskar.

Ravi.N

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #159 on: May 20, 2012, 05:55:56 PM »
Subramanian,
"The Who am I? question should become answerless"
Where is the 'Become' part of it?What was the answer expected when the question is not there.
One needs to see who the seeming 'I' (embodied ,limited 'i').It is this that is 'mind' or 'self'(not Self!).When one sees it by attending to it,like a thief who comes under scrutiny,the 'i' is supposed to disappear. :)
until the disappearance of the 'i' or the mind,self enquiry is to be continued.After this,it is only Self abidance.
This is my understanding as to how self-enquiry(not Self-enquiry!)works.
Namaskar.

Ravi.N

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #160 on: May 20, 2012, 05:59:00 PM »
Nagaraj,
"moreover, where can That move? Where is space for Space to move?"
That is why it is Arunachala' :)
Namaskar.

Subramanian.R

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #161 on: May 20, 2012, 06:04:38 PM »
Dear Ravi,

By the phrase 'the Self is to be attended to', I meant attention towards the Self. Attention is not a thought.

Arunachala Siva.

Subramanian.R

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #162 on: May 20, 2012, 06:06:44 PM »
Dear Ravi,

Who am I should become answerless - By this I meant the question is left behind since the Self-attention has started.
It is like throwing away the chit given by mother when things have been purchased by the son and the work completed.

Arunachala Siva.
 

Ravi.N

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #163 on: May 20, 2012, 06:12:52 PM »
subramanian,
"I meant attention towards the Self. Attention is not a thought"
If attention is not a thought,then it should be possible to do it in sleep.Is this correct?
Attention is also a thought.
it is the self and not Self that is being enquired into(No Question and No answer)
Namaskar.

Nagaraj

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #164 on: May 20, 2012, 06:22:58 PM »
the questions themselves are truly not there, and moreover, Not looking for answers, but ending of questions is the important thing. The questions are the first problems.

i read somewhere this wonderful statement "you are lost because you are searching"

The Self is searching and hence is lost. questions are thoughts, and, thoughts arise from wants, want has arised to know thyself, like Jnaneshwar says, the Self sports itself as ignorance and knowledge, darkness and light, so long the Self wishes, wills. "Leela kluptha brahmanda mandala - She (Self) who creates the different universes by simple play", "Leela Vinodhini - She (Self) who loves to play" -  Lalita Sahasranaamam.

Without inference of knowledge, nothing can be looked at.

There is truly no looking something, without the inferance of knowledge

Prostrations to Bhagavan
मनश्चेन्न लग्नं गुरोरंघ्रिपद्मे ततः किं ततः किं ततः किं ततः किम् ।।

Manaschenna lagnam Gurorangri padme, Thatha kim Thathah Kim, Thathah kim Thathah kim

If the mind does not remain at the Lotus feet of Guru, What is the use? What is the use? What is the use!!