Author Topic: Fundamental question about Mind!  (Read 195587 times)

Tushnim.Asanam

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #1665 on: March 10, 2013, 05:19:16 PM »
Dear Ravi ji,
     :) Lot of claims ... :) Lets summarize:
a) I have been dumb w.r.t freedom [coz i did not agree with your preset of ideas :)]
b) I have totally disconnected set of ideas [coz you cannot understand the connection]
c) most of my arguments are only apparently rationa [coz you dont see the logic behind them]

Sir :) Plz carry on with your "Feelings" .. I do not know what you want to discuss ... you just have some beliefs ... and whats there to discuss about a belief ? A belief means you do not know ... you just assumed... anyone can believe anything ... so whats there to discuss about it ? Its a matter of personal attachment.

Whats freedom , I answered ... you could not understand what my answer was ... if you did ... restate in ur own words what my answer was first ... lets see ? I always throw this challenge and no one takes it up :D LOL! ... anyways ! thanks for making that exception.
i have nothing against silent green ... i have only something against a statetment and in pointing an error as error ... I do not see who said it ... even if ramana says  and its a wrong statment i will make say so...

Harih OM!
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Hari

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #1666 on: March 10, 2013, 05:21:29 PM »
"Whatever you imagine Allah to be like, be sure He is not like that."
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Hari

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #1667 on: March 10, 2013, 05:52:11 PM »
Our death is our wedding

Our death is our wedding with eternity.
What is the secret? "God is One."
The sunlight splits when entering the windows of the house.
This multiplicity exists in the cluster of grapes;
it is not in the juice made from the grapes.
For he who is living in the Light of God,
the death of the carnal soul is a blessing.
Regarding him, say neither bad nor good,
for he is gone beyond the good and the bad.
Fix your eyes on God and do not talk about what is invisible,
so that he may place another look in your eyes.
It is in the vision of the physical eyes
that no invisible or secret thing exists.
But when the eye is turned toward the Light of God
what thing could remain hidden under such a Light?
Although all lights emanate from the Divine Light
don't call all these lights "the Light of God";
It is the eternal light which is the Light of God,
the ephemeral light is an attribute of the body and the flesh.
...Oh God who gives the grace of vision!
The bird of vision is flying towards You with the wings of desire.
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Ravi.N

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #1668 on: March 10, 2013, 05:58:10 PM »
Udai,

Quote
I have been dumb w.r.t freedom [coz i did not agree with your preset of ideas

Clearly this is not so;One who has been talking about Freedom and Choice ad infinitum should be in a position to expound it.
Let me explain by way of Example(again do not latch onto this and say this is another mind-set)
Sage pattinathar was a very rich Merchant in his poorvashrama before he became a mendicant.The King of the country was doing his rounds on an elephant and he noticed a mendicant Sadhu seated under the shade of a Tree.He promptly asked his minister as to who this Sadhu is and on being told that he was formerly a rich Merchant known as TiruvenkAdAr,who renounced everything and has become a mendicant,the King got down and walked towards pattinathar seated under a Tree.
He Bowed before him and stood before him and asked him:'Sir,I understand that you were formerly a Very Rich Merchant.What is it that you have gained by renouncing all the Riches and taking to this Life of a mendicant?'
Pattinathar answered-"The First apparent gain is that You are Standing and I am sitting!"He then expanded his statement:'In my earlier days as a Merchant ,I happen to stand in queue with the other Rich men of the city and pay tax to you as you were seated in your Durbar.Now see for yourself the Reversal of Roles!Now I am Free from all those compulsions!"
So goes the Story-but the point is to be free from Life's compulsions.

2.
Quote
I have totally disconnected set of ideas [coz you cannot understand the connection]
No,the connections are in your mind and assumed by you.They are not there stated out in the open.

3.
Quote
most of my arguments are only apparently rational [coz you dont see the logic behind them]
The arguements were disjointed and not connected and no logic is indeed there.

The basic problem I find is your assumption-That 'Ravi' is interested and operates in 'Feelings' and 'imagination' and does not understand Intellectual Rigour and Logic!Well ,I am not interested in this 'Ravi' and what he is and what he is not.
All that has to be seen is that one who is free from all trappings will be articulate and will make his point understood by even a child;it is as simple as that.
Otherwise,he is just cocooned in his fortress of Studied Ignorance.

Namaskar.

Hari

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #1669 on: March 10, 2013, 07:51:55 PM »
"Seeing is only being. The state of Self-realization, as we call it, is not attaining something new or reaching some goal which is far away, but simply being that which you always are and which you always have been. All that is needed is that you give up your realization of the not-true as true. All of us are regarding as real that which is not real. We have only to give up this practice on our part. Then we shall realize the Self as the Self; in other words, "Be the Self"."

- Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi -
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Hari

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #1670 on: March 10, 2013, 08:01:04 PM »
"Reality is simply the loss of ego. Destroy the ego by seeking its identity. Because the ego is no entity it will automatically vanish and reality will shine forth by itself. This is the direct method, whereas all other methods are done only by retaining the ego. In those paths there arise so many doubts and the eternal question "Who am I?" remains to be tackled finally. But in this method the final question is the only one and it is raised from the beginning."

- Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi -
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silentgreen

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #1671 on: March 11, 2013, 05:49:40 AM »
One day the disciple brought a newspaper.
d: Listen to this interesting news.

Three days back three robbers were arrested for looting a bank.

One of them claimed to be a jnani and said that he has chosen robbing as his livelihood and lifestyle and a jnani should not be judged by his lifestyle.

 He further said that he was not bound by the mind; being detached from the mind he is fearless and fearlessly robs.

He expounded the paramarthika stature of everyone in the court and said that the vyavaharika life of one is completely detached from the paramarthika stature and both should not be mixed.

He told the jury not to worry about his vyavaharika life. After all some money has got transferred from one box to another. The money did not say I got looted. Your law is only interpreting it like that.

He quoted some upanishadic mantras in the court and explained Atman to everyone.

When the jury expressed some doubt about his jnana he said that it does befit a jury to come to a decision through feeling. Let them contradict him through Upanishadic statements.

The jury seems to have got confused and adjourned the trial for one month.

It is said that the jury has sought the help of pundits to better understand the situation.


cguru: Interesting case indeed.
Homage to the Universal Being...Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ...

sanjaya_ganesh

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #1672 on: March 11, 2013, 06:12:25 AM »
:) Not a story - some recent "jnanis" caught in cases claimed the same thing in court :)

Sanjay
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Tushnim.Asanam

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #1673 on: March 11, 2013, 06:40:25 AM »
Dear Ravi ji,
I said :
Quote
Whats freedom , I answered ... you could not understand what my answer was ... if you did ... restate in ur own words what my answer was first ... lets see ? I always throw this challenge and no one takes it up
:) as always the challenge is not taken :d

Anyways, Regarding your statements:
Quote
The basic problem I find is your assumption-That 'Ravi' is interested and operates in 'Feelings' and 'imagination' and does not understand Intellectual Rigour and Logic!

This is not my assumption at all. In fact I have no means to know this. Lack of rigor in arguments however is quite clear.

Quote
All that has to be seen is that one who is free from all trappings will be articulate and will make his point understood by even a child;it is as simple as that.

Then take up the challenge i posed in the first quote of this post ... re-articulate what I said in your own words [less than 100 words :)] :D ...

Harih OM!
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Tushnim.Asanam

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #1674 on: March 11, 2013, 06:42:09 AM »
Dear silentgreen,
             :) Still confusion of paramarthika and vyavaharika ! The story is an expression of total lack of clarity of this and even the judges seem to be confused. the cguru anyway is!!
sir ... i request you to stop using these terms unless you have at least a basic understanding of them.
Harih OM!
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Ravi.N

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #1675 on: March 11, 2013, 07:07:17 AM »
Udai,
A little detachment from thoughts does give a sense of peace and a sense of Freedom from being jostled around.This in no way is to be taken as 'Liberation' and 'Freedom'-I have often posted Sri Aurobindo's writings on 'Quiet,Peace,Calm and Silence' and you have just ignored it,because it may not be convenient to see the validity.
The Reason that you have been harping over and over on 'why thoughts can continue' is simply on account of your not having experienced a Totally Thought free state of Silence that is the very Nature of Self.This again is the Reason that you treat experiences as a 'Touch me not'-simply because they are not easy to come by and it requires a good direct Yogic Depth ,and  demand intense sadhana and generally are beyond the Reach of an average Finished Product of Schools conducted by most Swamijis today!
The Reason that you are failing to acknowledge 'Samadhi' is also on account of it being beyond your Reach!It is true that one has to go beyond these experiences but that can be done by going 'through' them and not by 'avoiding' them.One avoids them because one finds that they are out of reach.
You have further invented 3 Classes of Jnanis!
The simple thing that happens when one is free from Trappings is that one is in a position to understand others and be understood by others.The Lifestyle evolves out of this understanding and Love and is governed by it.
Even at home,Things change-The way one looks at one's wife and children;the way they reciprocate as well.

If you think that all this is all imagination,etc and has nothing to do with 'Self-Abidance'(Whatever you may mean by it),then you are living in isolation and that has nothing to do with spiritual Living.

Namaskar.

Tushnim.Asanam

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #1676 on: March 11, 2013, 07:14:43 AM »
Dear Ravi ji,
    :)

Quote
A little detachment from thoughts does give a sense of peace and a sense of Freedom from being jostled around.

ok. This is obvious. why do you state it now ?

Quote
he Reason that you have been harping over and over on 'why thoughts can continue' is simply on account of your not having experienced a Totally Thought free state of Silence that is the very Nature of Self

How do you know ? Again a claim , baseless.
Sir this is what I do not do. I never make such claims about you or anyone here. I disagree with ideas... dont have anything abt people.

Quote
You have further invented 3 Classes of Jnanis!
I did not ... Tripura Rahasya did. I am not responsible for this.

Quote
The simple thing that happens when one is free from Trappings is that one is in a position to understand others and be understood by others.
Not necessary that others understand. Many people thought Sri Ramakrishna was a mad man. Many people took Ramana to be following some crude philosophy. This is a purely imaginary idea invented by Ravi ji to prove me that I am bound ... :)

Quote
you are living in isolation and that has nothing to do with spiritual Living.

As I said in the very beginning ... this was ur conclusion even before you started discussion... :) ... I told it before you said ! :) having concluded you are saying eveyrthing else to somehow arrive at this :D :). you could have just said this and left it at that.
Harih OM!
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silentgreen

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #1677 on: March 11, 2013, 07:25:45 AM »
Incidentally, the third robber also told the same thing in the court.

He said: You are all confused. First come back with the basic understanding of the scriptures and then come to judge.

So the jury had adjourned the trial for one month to ponder on the questions:
1. Exactly what type of understanding prevents a jnani from becoming a robber?

2. What is that freedom inspite of having which and becoming fearless one does not rob?

3. What is the nature of that detachment which prevents a jnani from robbing?

At this juncture everyone seems to be confused except the robber.
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Tushnim.Asanam

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #1678 on: March 11, 2013, 07:31:19 AM »
Dear Silentgreen,
    :) When a person does not know the Truth, it is so obvious in his statements ... Even a single sentence is enough to prove confused notions!!
Harih OM!
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Ravi.N

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #1679 on: March 11, 2013, 07:56:33 AM »
udai,

Quote
How do you know ? How do you know ? Again a claim , baseless.
Sir this is what I do not do. I never make such claims about you or anyone here. I disagree with ideas... dont have anything abt people.
Ideas are always associated with People.They do not exist independently.The only difference may be whether they are popular(appreciated by many,shared by many) or otherwise(not appreciated or shared by many).So,Your arguement falls flat.


Quote
How do you know ? Again a claim , baseless.
Sir this is what I do not do. I never make such claims about you or anyone here. I disagree with ideas... dont have anything abt people
It is quite simple.The Statements that you make and stand for,clearly evidence this.On the one hand you say that only the One who understands knows,and on the other hand you say that you discuss only ideas.See the Dichotomy.

Quote
Not necessary that others understand. Many people thought Sri Ramakrishna was a mad man. Many people took Ramana to be following some crude philosophy. This is a purely imaginary idea invented by Ravi ji to prove me that I am bound ...

Again,you are telling just one side of the Story at a superficial level.Did Not Mathur and Rasamoni Devi strongly suspect that there is something extraordinary about the apparent 'madcap'.So it was with others?The Transformation will definitely come about ,in case of some Rapidly and in case of others Gradually.Yet,it does come about.

Quote
As I said in the very beginning ... this was ur conclusion even before you started discussion...

I would say that this is the conclusion once again!We have had several rounds of Discussion earlier and to almost similiar outcome!Nothing new now ,in as much as the ideas are pretty much the same,even if they are dished out from the Books in Isolation.

Namaskar.