Author Topic: Fundamental question about Mind!  (Read 195583 times)

Hari

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #1740 on: March 15, 2013, 05:33:33 PM »
Dharma is basic commonsense... do not do something you do not want others to do to you.
so illicit sex ... not allowed.
back biting ... not allowed.
not being straight and direct ... not allowed.
looking down upon others ... not allowed .


it sums up to buddha's summary of what is right conduct.

So marrying 3 wives, loving and respecting them or having homosexual partner (because you are homosexual, not because of lust) illicit sex?
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Tushnim.Asanam

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #1741 on: March 15, 2013, 05:38:11 PM »
well would he (such a person as cited in your example) like his wife to marry 3 husbands and then have a lesbian partner ?

its , as i said, common sense ... dont do what you do not want your partner to reciprocate.

since people dont have deep enough sense of understanding certain norms are suggested.
thsoe have to be followed.
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Hari

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #1742 on: March 15, 2013, 05:43:27 PM »
well would he (such a person as cited in your example) like his wife to marry 3 husbands and then have a lesbian partner ?

its , as i said, common sense ... dont do what you do not want your partner to reciprocate.

since people dont have deep enough sense of understanding certain norms are suggested.
thsoe have to be followed.

Would a lesbian woman live alone in isolation without love because we consider her sexuality abusive, sinful or leading to 'illicit sex'? (which actually is sign of our ego's repulsivity against this behavior)
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Tushnim.Asanam

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #1743 on: March 15, 2013, 06:29:04 PM »
:) Well Hari, there is nothing like a "Defined" and "Fixed" idea.
Dharma is "Desha-Kala" dependent... its dependent on the place and the time period.

but i would follow buddha's right conduct percepts.
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Hari

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #1744 on: March 15, 2013, 06:33:58 PM »
:) Well Hari, there is nothing like a "Defined" and "Fixed" idea.
Dharma is "Desha-Kala" dependent... its dependent on the place and the time period.

but i would follow buddha's right conduct percepts.

Why would you follow it? Aren't you already free as you have said already? Why freedom for thoughts, rejecting this or that Jnani, this or that teaching, allowing sex in the family (heterosexual) but don't allow (accept) lesbian couple? May be because your ego is not so dead as you think. Or may be your compassion is not enough? But if you are Self-realized why make distinction even in behavior?
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Tushnim.Asanam

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #1745 on: March 15, 2013, 06:38:41 PM »
:) classic paramarthika , vyavaharika confusion again.
A Jnani always follows dharma.

I did not say anything like I do not allow lesbian couples or all that nonsense.
I have nothing against homosexuals . please do not misconstruct it.
I have nothing to discuss about them either ... neither do i feel like discussing about sexual behaviours :D LOL! where did we start ? We started with Brahmacharyam ... and what are we discussing now ? :D



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Hari

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #1746 on: March 15, 2013, 06:56:53 PM »
Quote
We started with Brahmacharyam ... and what are we discussing now ? :D

I go where the life takes me away. This conversation is not an exception. But I must admit that you are arrogant and self-sufficient. And I don't say it with bad feelings. No Jnani would converse the way you do it, not with me, but with everyone. Yes, now you are happy because your self-deception makes you feel better but you don't realize that you are a man who enjoys by humiliating others, proving how you are more right than them.
You can help people but you always choose to try to prove them wrong. I really cannot understand you. But truly it doesn't matter, it seems so for you but for me too. Behave as you wish.
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Tushnim.Asanam

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #1747 on: March 15, 2013, 07:08:01 PM »
Dear Hari,
        :)
1. I am straight forward and I do not hesitate to state things straight. people may construct it as arrogance and if they do so, its not my job to correct them there.
2. :) I am helping people when i reject or prove some ideas wrong. Some ideas go only when hit hard :D ;)
3. I am not humiliating others ... I am humiliating an idea! And is an idea the person ? And the idea thats humiliated is stupid idea ... thats when i can humiliate it. otherwise with due respect we have to consider it... an idea is true or false ... waht choice you have hari ?

Finally Hari ... i will pass away, these moments will pass away ... and then ... if even a little of the vedantic truth gets conveyed brother ... it helps the person whole life !! I know what I am doing ... knowingly i do it ... consciously. not to hurt anyone ... but to perhaps hit hard at ideas that are wrongly framed and have no proper basis.
and when i do this ... its the idea ... not the person.

I have utmost respect for all the forum members ... though i may reject some ideas ... i know that many of the forum members are very matured devotees ... But a wrong idea has to be rejected, when i am in the thread.
one can ask me to move out of the thread and then ill create my own thread and criticize the ideas that seem wrong.
one may ask me to move out of this forum ... then ill create my own blog and negate wrong ideas :)

those wrong ideas bind people hari. i stand free does not mean i remain aloof and never write about my journey. i have gone through all these ideas... i was there once , where our friends see themselves now ... i know it all... every one of the feelings i can distinctly see only difference being i would not take it to be personal insult if a person rejects my ideas :)

I am 34 years now ... and i have already gone through about 18 years of very sincere spiritual journey ... i started with Swami Vivekananda, Ramakrishna  and then moved on from saint to saint ... some fake, some meaningless like osho etc ... I have gone behind "so called saints" to know if they can help me find myself and i have cried whole nights sitting before an image of God for his Darshan... i have cried in trains and in lonely places ... sitting for hours ...  I have practised the so called bhakti ideas for very long ... not one or two years ...! you cannot believe that its me had you met me a few years back. so this is not out of lack of maturity that I am saying all this. I speak this out of an understanding thats born from my own sadhanas and study. those that can take advantage of it can take. those that cannot will not. I seldom mention this coz these number of years do not matter... what matters is the learning ... no one should be judged based on these criteria ... coz a person may do sadhana for 100 years and yet remain absolutely foolish ... its really the knowledge that liberates and when i convey what I convey ... its born out of understanding. I DO NOT negate something to prove others wrong ... its the ideas alone that matter ... not who says it.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2013, 07:14:46 PM by Tushnim.Asanam »
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Ravi.N

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #1748 on: March 15, 2013, 09:14:47 PM »
Udai,

Quote
i have cried whole nights sitting before an image of God for his Darshan... i have cried in trains and in lonely places ... sitting for hours ...  I have practised the so called bhakti ideas for very long ... not one or two years ...! you cannot believe that its me had you met me a few years back

There are no bhakti 'ideas' to be practised.You just got it wrong.Bhakti is not just whipping up one's emotion,a longing for something that one takes a fancy for,and insisting vehemently for a result.It is not imitating someone else.No.
Bhakti is adoration wherein one quietly offers oneself in love and peace.It is to breathe and bask in the perfume of the Divine that wafts when the flower of the soul blossoms,and it is to listen to the whisper of Silence deep within us.It is to be sensitive to the beauty in us and around us.

I do appreciate the other way of Jnana which rejects all thoughts,Feelings and dwells in pure awareness,without being buffeted by thoughts .Yet,this can go hand in hand with the Other and reinforce each other-The appreciation of the Impersonal and the Personal God.

As for the 'Ideas' they are only serviceable-There is no such thing like a absolutely Right and absolutely wrong idea-Like an Embryo has to stay within the shell and the nourishment is also provided within that shell;yet once it grows into a chick it has to burst open the shell and come out leaving the shell behind.Every idea has its 'Time' and 'Place' for which it is valid and it will be premature not to admit it then;the very same idea may become limiting and stunting and has to be outgrown at a later point in time .The only one who can decide what is 'Valid' for 'Who' is The inner Guru and He knows Best how and when he chooses to blossom the flower in us.

All other external aids that are forced on the seeker are just like 'artificial Ripening' measures.They never can substitute for the Real Ripening that happens from within.

Namaskar.

« Last Edit: March 16, 2013, 07:19:05 AM by Ravi.N »

Jewell

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #1749 on: March 15, 2013, 11:06:26 PM »
Quote
    Quote from Sri Ravi
  Bhakti is adoration wherein one quietly offers oneself in love and peace.It is to breathe and bask in the perfume of the Divine that wafts when the flower of the soul blossoms,and it is to listen to the whisper of Silence deep within us.It is to be sensitive to the beauty in us and around us.

I do appreciate the other way of Jnana which rejects all thoughts,Feelings and dwells in pure awareness,without being buffeted by thoughts .Yet,this can go hand in hand with the Other and reinforce each other-The appreciation of the Impersonal and the Personal God.

Dear Sri Ravi,

So beautiful and sweet words! And so true. I think just the same,and i couldnt say it better.

Thank You Very much!

With love and prayers,
Love

Ravi.N

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #1750 on: March 16, 2013, 06:40:35 AM »
Friends,
Jewell,thanks for your words of appreciation.Here is an excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna where the Master is clearly differentiating superficial Bhakti from the Genuine one.
Sincere and formal devotion
"When the devotee develops raga-bhakti, passionate love of God, he realizes Him. But one loses vaidhi-bhakti, formal devotion, as easily as one gains it. This is formal devotion: so much japa, so much meditation, so much sacrifice and homa, so many articles of worship, and the recitation of so many mantras, before the Deity. Such devotion comes in a moment and goes in a moment. Many people say: 'Well, friend, we have lived on havishya for so many days! How many times we have worshipped the Deity at our home! And what have we achieved?'
 But there is no falling away from raga-bhakti. And who gets this passionate love for God? Those who have performed many meritorious deeds in their past births, or
those who are eternally perfect. Think of a dilapidated house, for instance: while clearing away the undergrowth and rubbish one suddenly discovers a fountain fitted with a pipe. It has been covered with earth and bricks, but as soon as they are removed the water shoots up.
Sign of a true devotee
"Those who have passionate love for God do not say any such thing as: 'O brother, how strict I have been about food! But what have I achieved?' New farmers give up cultivating if their fields do not yield any crops. But hereditary farmers will continue to cultivate their fields whether they get a crop or not. Their fathers and grandfathers were farmers; they know that they too must accept farming as their means of livelihood. "Only those who have developed raga-bhakti for God may be called His sincere devotees.God becomes responsible for them.
If you enter your name in a hospital register, the doctor will not discharge you until you are cured. Those who are held by God have nothing to fear.
The son who holds to his father, while walking along the narrow ridge of a paddy-field, may slip if he absent-mindedly lets go his father's hand; but if the father holds the son by the hand, there is no such danger.

We clearly see how the Master has exposed all egoistic forms of Bhakti that are only an indulgence and self pampering !To come to the conclusion that Bhakti does not 'work'?This is utter stupidity!What else?Another stupidity is trying to 'define' Bhakti as this or that.
See how clearly the Master has exposed such an approach:''Well, friend, we have lived on havishya for so many days! How many times we have worshipped the Deity at our home! And what have we achieved?"
Now,because we did not get it right we cannot jump to the erroneous conclusion that others would not have got it Right, and are trying to follow something impractical;they need to be shown the Right way!There is real danger in this sort of playing an 'indirect Guru'-we may end up smothering the sincere Faith of someone who is Blossoming.It is like trying to test the strength of  a sapling by uprooting it to 'check' whether the Roots have dug deep!One may again plant it but it may not be the same ever again.It may wither and die.
This is the Reason that in the Gita there is a clear and unambiguous warning from Lord Sri Krishna,in chapter 3 verse 26-'na Buddhi bhedam janayEd ajnAnAm karma sanginAm;JoshayEt sarva karmANi vidvAn yuktah samAcharan-'Let not the wise man unsettle the mind of the Ignorant people attached to Karma.By doing persistently and precisely let the wise induce the others in all activities.'
The key warning is 'na Buddhi Bhedam janayEd'-This warning is for 'vidvAn'-The man learned in scriptures.
If one truly wishes to share something that he has derived benefit from,he or she may do it in a plain way and leave it to the readers to take it or leave it.No need for any sort of missionary zeal to disprove so called 'wrong ideas'.Any such sort of 'missionary' zeal is always suspect and indicates clear chink and unripe nature in oneself that one best attends to.All self righteousness and self assertion which seems to spring from one's conviction may well be a reflection of  inadequacy as well.
Namaskar.

Hari

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #1751 on: March 16, 2013, 07:13:16 PM »
Dear Hari,
        :)
1. I am straight forward and I do not hesitate to state things straight. people may construct it as arrogance and if they do so, its not my job to correct them there.
2. :) I am helping people when i reject or prove some ideas wrong. Some ideas go only when hit hard :D ;)
3. I am not humiliating others ... I am humiliating an idea! And is an idea the person ? And the idea thats humiliated is stupid idea ... thats when i can humiliate it. otherwise with due respect we have to consider it... an idea is true or false ... waht choice you have hari ?

Finally Hari ... i will pass away, these moments will pass away ... and then ... if even a little of the vedantic truth gets conveyed brother ... it helps the person whole life !! I know what I am doing ... knowingly i do it ... consciously. not to hurt anyone ... but to perhaps hit hard at ideas that are wrongly framed and have no proper basis.
and when i do this ... its the idea ... not the person.

I have utmost respect for all the forum members ... though i may reject some ideas ... i know that many of the forum members are very matured devotees ... But a wrong idea has to be rejected, when i am in the thread.
one can ask me to move out of the thread and then ill create my own thread and criticize the ideas that seem wrong.
one may ask me to move out of this forum ... then ill create my own blog and negate wrong ideas :)

those wrong ideas bind people hari. i stand free does not mean i remain aloof and never write about my journey. i have gone through all these ideas... i was there once , where our friends see themselves now ... i know it all... every one of the feelings i can distinctly see only difference being i would not take it to be personal insult if a person rejects my ideas :)

I am 34 years now ... and i have already gone through about 18 years of very sincere spiritual journey ... i started with Swami Vivekananda, Ramakrishna  and then moved on from saint to saint ... some fake, some meaningless like osho etc ... I have gone behind "so called saints" to know if they can help me find myself and i have cried whole nights sitting before an image of God for his Darshan... i have cried in trains and in lonely places ... sitting for hours ...  I have practised the so called bhakti ideas for very long ... not one or two years ...! you cannot believe that its me had you met me a few years back. so this is not out of lack of maturity that I am saying all this. I speak this out of an understanding thats born from my own sadhanas and study. those that can take advantage of it can take. those that cannot will not. I seldom mention this coz these number of years do not matter... what matters is the learning ... no one should be judged based on these criteria ... coz a person may do sadhana for 100 years and yet remain absolutely foolish ... its really the knowledge that liberates and when i convey what I convey ... its born out of understanding. I DO NOT negate something to prove others wrong ... its the ideas alone that matter ... not who says it.

My purpose was not to offend you, dear brother. I have always loved you and I have always been happy when you are around. And this is the reason I have always tried bring you when you have decided to leave this forum. But I must also be honest with myself. And I want to be with you too. I feel that your mind has hunger for arguing. I feel that you don't try to help people but to argue with them. In very few cases I have been witness of your approval of other's opinions. I accept that you glorify Jnana marga and you like Shankara consider it as the highest yoga. But how can any yoga be superior or inferior. For Sri Ramakrishna bhakti yoga was superior than jnana yoga because His mind was suitable to it and therefore most appropriate. Ultimately all yogas are equally real/unreal.
So please dear Udai when one loves God and searches guidance in bhakti yoga, don't impose upon him/her what you believe in only right. Be helpful to him/her, don't try to prove they are wrong and you are right. Bhakti is not inferior to jnana. Actually as Sri Ramana has said bhakti is the mother of jnana.
I was disappointed about your statement for lesbians due to my personal motives. A friend of mine committed suicide because he was homosexual and all 'good' and 'moral' and 'loving' Christians told him that God loves him but hates his 'sin'. Nobody accepted him. Only we, his friends, loved him as he is because he was loving, compassionate, always ready to help, smart, a person you can trust every time, he was beautiful soul. But only we, his friends, had the chance to know him. And the others - the 'good' christians did not even sorry him because for them he was not only homosexual pervert but now a suicide.
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latha

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #1752 on: March 17, 2013, 12:00:04 AM »
Dear Hariji,

I am so sorry to hear about your friend. It is very sad that people are so insecure that they have to judge others so harshly.

As for Jnana and Bhakti paths, the biggest blessing to me is to be aware of a higher purpose in life, why not focus on that awareness instead of the games played by our mind with ideas and words. We feel the grace to be interested in spirituality, we need to trust in that grace to lead us on the right path.

When I reflect on Aksharamanamalai both Jnana and Bhakti merge together.

Om Namo Bhagavate Sri Ramanaya

Hari

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #1753 on: March 17, 2013, 12:48:14 PM »
Quote
As for Jnana and Bhakti paths, the biggest blessing to me is to be aware of a higher purpose in life, why not focus on that awareness instead of the games played by our mind with ideas and words. We feel the grace to be interested in spirituality, we need to trust in that grace to lead us on the right path.

I think it is because our mind is 'drowned' in worldly thoughts which don't give us peace and always engage us in some kind of action - physical or mental.
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Hari

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #1754 on: March 17, 2013, 05:19:54 PM »
"A true teacher would never tell you what to do. But he would give you the knowledge with which you could decide what would be best for you to do." (Christopher Pike)
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