Author Topic: Fundamental question about Mind!  (Read 173444 times)

Nagaraj

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #195 on: May 21, 2012, 08:02:40 PM »
Dear i,

would we eat some more food after we have just had a nice full meal? In the same way, once it dawns, even intellectually, the truth, one would recognize the true purport of fasting on Maha Shivarathri day, such a blemish-less pure one would no longer think about Mahashivarathri day as some exclusive day, for he discerns all day is the same, all time is same, all are same. and if semen has to come out, let it come, what matters to such a pure one? if it comes involuntarily due to the said reasons of prostate gland, let it do its job. the body is functioning perfectly, allow it to function, and remain, for such a one knows, he is That, in which presence all these are happening, he remains untouched.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
मनश्चेन्न लग्नं गुरोरंघ्रिपद्मे ततः किं ततः किं ततः किं ततः किम् ।।

Manaschenna lagnam Gurorangri padme, Thatha kim Thathah Kim, Thathah kim Thathah kim

If the mind does not remain at the Lotus feet of Guru, What is the use? What is the use? What is the use!!

Ravi.N

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #196 on: May 22, 2012, 07:52:35 AM »
Ramana,
you have raised a very important aspect that every earnest aspirant should understand and negotiate:
"So the problem is not the physical needs but more psychological. Or if you have not done sex much time is your prostate gland is full of semen how could you prevent it and follow so prescribed celibate lifestyle."

Denying the problem obviously does not help, accepting the problem also does not help!So,how do we approach this?
Unless we approach life wholistically,understand its complexity,acknowledge it in all aspects-physical,social,ethical,intellectual,spiritual;unless we do this we cannot live it fully.
This is a vast subject and what Dharma is all about.Dharma is not a simple list of 'Dos and Don'ts'.What is a 'Do' will become a 'Don't' for the same person at a different point in time or for a different person at the same point in time.
This is the rationale behind the Varna and ashrama dharma -that they aid the  individual to live to his fullest potential and not as a xerox copy of some contrived concepts.
For the moment,i do not have time to fully go into this subject-I will recommend a simple and modest book called -'Spiritual Practice';While in college,I read this book published by Sri Ramakrishna mutt.The Author was an anonymous 'Ananda'!Later on I was given to understand that it was Swami Ashokananda,one of the Disciples of Swami Brahmananda(Spiritual son of Sri Ramakrishna and First president of the Ramakrishna Mutt and Mission).
Please read this book and it gives wonderful hints on almost all aspects of spiritual living.
Please download it from :
http://www.estudantedavedanta.net/spiritual%20practice.pdf

This is how the Introduction runs:
When, first the beauty of spiritual life dawns on our vision, our reaction to it is preeminently
emotional. We then lack understanding, we do not know the bearings of the
path that leads to the spiritual goal - we are moved by an impulse. But very soon we feel
the want of clear knowledge. Doubts assail us and we yearn to know the why and the
wherefore of things. He who writes these words was one who felt the same need. He
remembers the days of his difficulties, and believes that if he undertakes a discussion of
the preliminary stages and conditions of practical religion, he will be doing a service,
however meager and imperfect it may be.
The writer wishes it to be clearly understood that in all he has said I the following pages,
he lays no claim to infallibility
(This is the mark of an earnest one!-Ravi). He has written as he has understood. And he has
communicated his knowledge even as a traveler speaks of his experiences of the way -
however ill-perceived and ill-conceived - to others traveling along the same path. He
claims nothing more
.

Namaskar.


Nagaraj

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #197 on: May 22, 2012, 08:10:54 AM »
Just gathered what Sri Bhagavan had to say in this topic:

D.: How to root out sexual impulse?
M.: By rooting out the false idea of the body being Self. There is no
sex in the Self.
D.: How to realise it?
M.: Because you think you are the body, you see another as the body. Difference in sex arises.

(talks 170)

D.: How will the sexual impulse cease to be?
M.: When differentiation ceases.
D.: How can it be effected?
M.: The other sex and its relation are only mental concepts. The Upanishad says that all are dear because the Self is beloved of all. One’s happiness is within; the love is of the Self only. It is only within; do not think it to be without: then differentiation ceases to operate.

(Talks 335)

‘A’ was once badly distracted by sexual thoughts. He fought against them. He fasted three days and prayed to God so that he might be free from such thoughts. Finally, he decided to ask Sri Bhagavan about it.

Sri Bhagavan listened to him and remained silent for about two minutes. Then He said: Well, the thoughts distracted you and you fought against them. That is good. Why do you continue to think of them now? Whenever such thoughts arise, consider to whom they arise and they will flee away from you.

(Talks 545)

Prostrations to Bhagavan
मनश्चेन्न लग्नं गुरोरंघ्रिपद्मे ततः किं ततः किं ततः किं ततः किम् ।।

Manaschenna lagnam Gurorangri padme, Thatha kim Thathah Kim, Thathah kim Thathah kim

If the mind does not remain at the Lotus feet of Guru, What is the use? What is the use? What is the use!!

Ravi.N

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #198 on: May 22, 2012, 08:49:16 AM »
Ramana/Nagaraj/friends,
Sri Bhagavan is indeed pointing out that Body consciousness is at the root of all problems.Yet,if that can be dispensed with,one will realize Truth.Nothing more is required.It is only to root out 'I am the Body' consciousness that Sadhana is practised .Unless sexual impulses are mastered(which is what we are discussing)there is very little possibility of dropping the 'I am the Body' idea.
There are two sides to sadhana -aspiration and rejection.Both go hand in hand and nothing works alone.Aspiration aids rejection and rejection aids aspiration.
In a way Sri Bhagavan's response is begging the question and is insufficient from the questioner's point of view.All the same,it would have sown a seed which in course of time will bear its fruit.No doubt about it. :)
Life is too complex(whether we acknowledge or not!)to be reduced to simplistic solutions.Suggestions can come from others but living has to be done by oneself.
No one, however Great, can solve our problems.we have to learn from others but onus is on us to find our way.

Namaskar.

Nagaraj

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #199 on: May 22, 2012, 09:11:24 AM »
Dear i,

yes, it is only to root out 'i am the body' consciousness that sadhana is practiced.

i just want to add here, that this quest of rooting out the body ought to be properly understood. i feel, that, generally there is a lack of proper discernment of question itself ie. rooting out body consciousness. We have to be clear that what this question aims to result is rooting out the singular identification where as one is universal.

It is like believing, one is just the "eyes"alone and all other organs such as the ears, nose, limbs, various organs such as heart liver, bones, as not Oneself.

One is collectively the entire body, and WRT quest of Reality, One is entire Universe, oneself, what is seen is the Seer Himself, One whole Self without a second.

Therefore, when it is said repeatedly in Ramana literature and other saints as well when they say free from body consciousness, it implies to free oneself from imagining oneself as just the eyes alone, and realise that one is whole body and not just the eyes that see alone, in the same way, one is the Whole Self, without a second.

The Heart is used in the Vedas and the scriptures to denote the place whence the notion ‘I’ springs. Does it spring only from the fleshy ball? It springs within us somewhere right in the middle of our being. The ‘I’ has no location. Everything is the Self. There is nothing but that. So the Heart must be said to be the entire body of ourselves and of the entire universe, conceived as ‘I’. But to help the practiser (abhyasi) we have to indicate a definite part of the Universe, or of the Body. So this Heart is pointed out as the seat of the Self. But in truth we are everywhere, we are all that is, and there is nothing else.

(Talks 29)

And how does one limit oneself by just eyes in one body, how does the Self become limited -

the One Reality is the Self from whom has sprung the ego which contains within itself the seeds of predispositions acquired in previous births. The Self illumines the ego, the predispositions and also the gross senses, whereupon the predispositions appear to the senses to have materialised as the universe, and become perceptible to the ego, the reflection of the Self. The ego identifies itself with the body, and so loses sight of the Self and the result of this inadvertence is dark ignorance and the misery of the present life. The fact of the ego rising from the Self and forgetting it, is birth.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
« Last Edit: May 22, 2012, 09:15:24 AM by Nagaraj »
मनश्चेन्न लग्नं गुरोरंघ्रिपद्मे ततः किं ततः किं ततः किं ततः किम् ।।

Manaschenna lagnam Gurorangri padme, Thatha kim Thathah Kim, Thathah kim Thathah kim

If the mind does not remain at the Lotus feet of Guru, What is the use? What is the use? What is the use!!

Ravi.N

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #200 on: May 22, 2012, 09:25:46 AM »
Nagaraj,
"rooting out body consciousness"-It is the sense of 'i' that everyone feels and is limited by.No need for any learned understanding.
self-enquiry examines this limited sense that everyone has by turning the attention on this 'limited sense' and finding out if it stands such a relentless scrutiny.
No description of 'Body consciousness' is required.All descriptions and analogies cannot substitute for the Raw sense of 'I' that the most rustic one among us feels and acts by.What the absence of 'Body consciousness ' is like is what you are trying to speculate! That is needless.self enquiry is designed to avoid precisely this speculation. :)
Namaskar.

Nagaraj

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #201 on: May 22, 2012, 09:33:58 AM »
Dear i,

yes, you are right, and, it is in the same sense, it is discerned that it is equally needless to speculate on rooting out desires as well, what is truly required in "Self Enquiry itself, which will root out what ever needs to be rooted on way.

That, from which light, it is discerned, the sense of 'i' that feels limited, is itself not limited. In this way, it is purely pratyaksham, ones own anubhuti, that true Self, from which this limited feeling has arised.

Improvising from Jnaneshwar expressions, when the clouds hide the Sun, it is again from the light of Sun only, that we even are able to see that the clouds are hiding the Sun.

In the same way, the feeling of limitlessness is also illumined only because of ones own light.

That which discerns Ignorance, can that be ignorant itself?

There is no ignorance. nothing need be done. IF THIS BE PROPERLY DISCERNED

Prostrations to Bhagavan
« Last Edit: May 22, 2012, 09:36:11 AM by Nagaraj »
मनश्चेन्न लग्नं गुरोरंघ्रिपद्मे ततः किं ततः किं ततः किं ततः किम् ।।

Manaschenna lagnam Gurorangri padme, Thatha kim Thathah Kim, Thathah kim Thathah kim

If the mind does not remain at the Lotus feet of Guru, What is the use? What is the use? What is the use!!

Ravi.N

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #202 on: May 22, 2012, 09:41:01 AM »
nagaraj,
"needless to speculate on rooting out desires as well"
This is not speculation for as long as one is moved by desires one needs to find a way to handle it.It is immediate and urgent.It is a 'do' or 'Not do' dilemma.Theories do not help.One is then not thinking about rooting out desire but to get rid of it :)
Here we cannot live on borrowed thoughts,however noble or however rational.
Namaskar.

Nagaraj

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #203 on: May 22, 2012, 09:56:10 AM »
Dear i,

agreed, Now, when such a person has begun to feel dismayed at himself because of succumbing to desires, such a one in whom feelings disgust with his succumbing to desires, has arisen, he has already begun to free himself from it, that very instance he starts to feel disgust. what is wisdom here is to direct or channelise this wisdom errupted as disgust in the right direction.

that one ought to reflect whether he wants mere controlling of desires or completely free himself of desire, with the ultimate aim of Jnana, he ought to reflect that His God or Self is the One that can help him truly freed from this, and not his own way of handling it. It dawns very clearly that what is more immediate and more urgent than handling any desires is to reflect within, or which ever sadhana one may be acquainted with. That is the wise way. One cannot control desires, for they are bound to reappear. This is the direct way.

It is purely choosing God or Self at all instances of trouble over one self, over one own way of handling anything!

this is my discernment. this has only helped me all through in all spheres at various instances.



just sharing in right spirit, handling of desires, is appropriate for one who aspires for mere de-addiction who is not in quest for Jnana. This does not holds good for one who is in quest for Jnana. For one who is in quest for Jnana, only the pure weapon of proper discernment by any which way he has been following, ones own Guru Sampradaya is the medicine.

this is the subtle difference, i wished to point out.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
« Last Edit: May 22, 2012, 10:01:56 AM by Nagaraj »
मनश्चेन्न लग्नं गुरोरंघ्रिपद्मे ततः किं ततः किं ततः किं ततः किम् ।।

Manaschenna lagnam Gurorangri padme, Thatha kim Thathah Kim, Thathah kim Thathah kim

If the mind does not remain at the Lotus feet of Guru, What is the use? What is the use? What is the use!!

Ravi.N

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #204 on: May 22, 2012, 10:33:50 AM »
Nagaraj,
"Now, when such a person has begun to feel dismayed at himself,etc".
First let us understand what to do;then we may think of handling feelings of guilt.We are currently discussing 'What to Do'.
If we go through that book ,Spiritual Practice  all the aspects that go into deciding 'What To do' are discussed.No single size fits all.Each one has to find a solution for his immediate problem.This is applicable for all,pursuers of jnana or ajnana-All those who 'pursue' :)
Namaskar.

srkudai

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #205 on: May 22, 2012, 10:43:55 AM »
Well, there are two aspects to managing desires:
a) What to do when desires arise.
b) What to do with the "Roots" of the desire.

:) Like a room full of water. if i come home to see that my room is full of rain water. i need to know two things:
1) how to drain it out.
2) what leaked it in and how to block them.


Nagaraj

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #206 on: May 22, 2012, 10:51:53 AM »
Dear i,

WRT to "What to Do" i discern as follows -

What ever i am saying is applicable for one who is in genuine quest for truth. therefore, what i say may not be generalized for everybody.

For such a Dhira, whose only aim is realisation alone, when he is faced with any desires, if he can exercise restraint with sanity, it is well and good, if one cannot exercise restraint, allow what happens to happen, there is no point in exercising restraint when ones sanity and bodily organs, the prostrate glads have their duty to perform. let such a one exercise wisdom so as to not cause harm to anybody else, or which could bring himself to trouble . In this spirit, let such a one, commence reflection thereafter, with conviction and affirmation, not to repeat it. It is clear, the goal is Self reflection, all sin is only in the mind, let mind not delve in restraint and guilt, no sin attracts the pure self, hence, such a one who is unable to exercise restraint, may resume his enquiry thereafter, with sincerity and caution, to not allow oneself, situations that could bring him back to same predicament. It is all dependent on ones intensity or longing for Freedom. As Bhagavan says, not to continue to think of them thereafter. Whenever such thoughts arise, consider to whom they arise and they will flee away from you. and not allow any possibilities to build up to the extant of being unable to exercise resraint with sanity!

We need to discern that Desires themselves are not sin, there is no bigger sin than feeling guilty.

Let such a one console and elevate oneself by affirming, Deham Naham,Koham Soham, as one is not the doer. It is far better to be done with what ever the desire rather than mentally masturbate for long times and making the physiological body to suffer on account of ones of rules of morality!

But, having said this, if one goes on to take this as a reason each time, such a one automatically falls. It only goes to prove his intensity and longing for realisation falls short to his satiating desires.

Hindu Dharma, provides place for such a one to GET MARRIED AND RESUME HIS QUEST parallelally.

Prosrations to Bhagavan
« Last Edit: May 22, 2012, 10:55:39 AM by Nagaraj »
मनश्चेन्न लग्नं गुरोरंघ्रिपद्मे ततः किं ततः किं ततः किं ततः किम् ।।

Manaschenna lagnam Gurorangri padme, Thatha kim Thathah Kim, Thathah kim Thathah kim

If the mind does not remain at the Lotus feet of Guru, What is the use? What is the use? What is the use!!

Subramanian.R

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #207 on: May 22, 2012, 11:19:51 AM »
Dear srkudai,  Ravi, Nagaraj,

I am of the view that the desires are of two types:

1. Desires of instinctive nature. Like sexual desires, desire to drink water, eat and to procreate. Desire to go to sleep.

2. Desires acquired of availability of desire-fulfilling objects in the world. The cigarettes, drinks, tobacco, sweets, ice creams,
chocolates etc., These are the products from the world. Because of the availability, desires arise. Before Vasco da gama
came to India there were no tobacco plants. Ice creams have been the discovery only for the past one hundred years.
Chocolates are also of the same age. All these products in the world produce the desires. Some fifty or sixty years back,
Indians first started using snuff. Then came the tobacco flakes, which were being used along with betal leaves, areca nuts and
chunam. Cigarattes came into use much larter. Another discovery which is quite harmful is pani puri. This pani puri made in homes
are healthy. But those sold on roadsides are really harmful though not habit forming.

The first type of desires were not prohibited. Even ascetics on their own voluntary disposition abstained from married life and sex.

The second type are really harmful.

While the first type is very difficult for most of people to leave. The second type can be left with vairagya.


Arunachala Siva.           

Nagaraj

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #208 on: May 22, 2012, 11:20:44 AM »
Dear i,

The Vaidika Dharma path is absolutely Wholesome. most of us are not that acquainted with the Vedic Mantras, the veda Suktas. If one is able to seek the essence of many of these mantras, one will become familiar with it all.

The Vaidhika Maarga allows space for every kind of people, There is this Trisuparna Mantram, which i remember this instant, which says, upon chanting this mantras in the said manner, one even gets absolved from various sins, such as Brahma Hatya (killing), Bhruna Hathya (killing of fetus), Adultery, and many other sins. There are so many mantras which suggest ways of freeing oneself from any guilt one can imagine! All sins already committed can be cleansed by prayaschittam. The Shruti lays importance to only what is in had now! Do not spoil this Now by building buildings of desires so as to being unable to exercise restraint.

There is this beautiful concept called Praayschittam. Every year, What is this Avani Avittam all about? it is to cleanse oneself from all possible sins one may have committed knowingly or unknowingly.

I have seen one 100 year old book on avani avitam Maha Sankalpam and was shocked to read passages such as comitting adultery with women, related otherwise, etc.. and so many other things... so it goes to prove, that seers who conceived of these nithya karmas have thought very well so as to enable one to free oneself from the grip of desires. What sankalpa we do today is only minimal, owing to busy and blind minds. no spirit whatsoever! Those days, Maha Sankalpas iself was in pages!

It is said, if for 1 month, if one chants Gayatri mantra near a river or any holy place, one will be complete absolved of all sins. Even Girivalam, Arunachala Mahatyam, i have heard in Suki SIivams pravchanam, where he says, if one does girivalam with complete faith, he is pure that very moment, but only he has to not repeat bad karmas again.

If we look at Apasthamba Sutras, there are rules for brahmacharis, if a brahmachari looks at a woman in bad manner, he has to immediately do certain thoousand number of gayatris in order to free himself of succumbing to seeing a woman in wrong manner.

butm these days, when people dont have faith in Vedas itself, how can one hope to improve? in the name of jnana and other talk, people dont even do sandhyavandanam. Sandhyavandama has mantras to daily consciously, maintain sanity, one has to go through the meanings of mantras,

one seeks cleansing and forgiveness every day 3 times a day for committing any sins through mouth, mind soul, anger, and through those organs as well - "sishna"

True discernment is very essential.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
« Last Edit: May 22, 2012, 11:22:44 AM by Nagaraj »
मनश्चेन्न लग्नं गुरोरंघ्रिपद्मे ततः किं ततः किं ततः किं ततः किम् ।।

Manaschenna lagnam Gurorangri padme, Thatha kim Thathah Kim, Thathah kim Thathah kim

If the mind does not remain at the Lotus feet of Guru, What is the use? What is the use? What is the use!!

Ravi.N

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #209 on: May 22, 2012, 11:28:09 AM »
Nagaraj/Friends,
There are genuine seekers among householders and Renunciants.Also Sexual desire is something that has to be handled by both.Even such an exalted being like Sri Ramakrishna had experienced the attack!Here is an excerpt from The Gospel of sri Ramakrishna:
"Is it an easy matter to get rid of lust? I myself felt a queer sensation in my heart six
months after I had begun my spiritual practice. Then I threw myself on the ground under a
tree and wept bitterly. I said to the Divine Mother, 'Mother, if it comes to that, I shall
certainly cut my throat with a knife!'

(To the devotees) "If the mind is free from 'woman and gold', then what else can obstruct a
man? He enjoys then only the Bliss of Brahman.
"

It happened to Annamalai Swami as well and when he approached sri Bhagavan he was made to stand on a hot rock by Bhagavan!No 'self enquiry' was resorted to!

What we are discussing is this-There may be many who would like to pursue the life of a celibate.These must evaluate the Strength and Frequency of these attacks and need to decide whether they arre better off by getting married and legitimately enjoy sex in a disciplined manner.This is one sure way of overcoming the sexual instinct if it proves too strong otherwise.
One general guideline for householders is to go through the desire slowly so that one is aware of every moment of it.This is tantra sex and is a very effective way for sublimating the sex desire.Sri Ramakrishna permitted this for householder disciples.
On the other hand if it is an occasional attack,it can be handled in a firm way and with each rejection the strength and frequency will decline and over a period of time it will be no longer a problem that it once was.

Most often,it has been the most ardent aspirants who had faced the brunt of these attacks like Arunagiri Nathar,Thayumanavar and other great ones-and some of these were householders as well!

The Book 'Spiritual Practice' gives  very fine guidance for one and all.

Namaskar.