Fundamental question about Mind!

[Nagaraj]

Dear i,

in Shankara Digvijayam, when Shankara debated with Mandana Mishra, and when Mandana Mishra conceived his defeat, Ubhaya Bharati, his wife, who was judge, did not finally declare Shankara as winner, she asked Shankara, this very pertinant question, is Advaita, union with Brahman, more blissful than "Kama" for which Shankara did not have an immediate answer, he had to discern it out and finally prove to Ubhaya Bharati that Brahman was the ultimate bliss, even superior to the kama pleasures.

One ought to discern, for ultimate release.

Prostrations to Bhagavan

[Nagaraj]

It happened to Annamalai Swami as well and when he approached sri Bhagavan he was made to stand on a hot rock by Bhagavan!No 'self enquiry' was resorted to!

Dear i,

nice post. yes, all the great saints have had to face this great question. that is why there is a saying, Nadi Moolam Rishi Moolam Kerrkakudadu - one should never question the source of a river and a rishi.

Self enquiry is subtly is only discernment. Thelivu. Even in Annamalai Swami also, a subtle Self enquiry did happen, as a matter of fact, every sadhana is subtly Self Enquiry itself or we can say, Self enquiry is subtly every other Sadhana itself (any which way). Why one does self enquiry? only to attain clarity, what is the true intention of any sadhana, it is only to attain clarity. only that sadhana is called in different names. all paths lead to the same clarity.

What happened was that when Annamalai Swami's foot began to suffer because of heat, all his attention was thus shifted from lust thoughts to this heat sensation. This is the discernment. How the desires lose hold when faced with extreme shifts. one can use this as an aid as well. those days, i remember some devotee, whenever he got angry at something he would right away go do girivalam. in same way, when one is attacked with any such intense cravings, may be one should get up and start waling where ever he is and assume as though he is doing girivalam.

one has to find his way in overcoming desires.

Prostrations to Bhagavan

[srkudai]

Again Two things:
a) What did Annamalai swami do when he was in grip of desire.
b) What made sure that the desire never reappeared ?

Always both things have to be taken care of.

[Subramanian.R]

Dear Nagaraj,

Yes. Sandha vandhana chanting says that 'I may have done in the day or in the night many many  sins, with my penis etc.,
And there is a prayaschittam!

This prayaschittam business is a foolish concept. One would do prayaschittam and continue to do the same sin.
In genuine commitment of 'sins', the true prayschittam is seeking forgiveness from God and ABSTAINING FROM DOING
THE SAME 'SIN'.

We see in puranas, Chandra did mischief with his own Guru's wife. And Chandra did praysachittam. What nonsense!
Such stories would be embarassing when a non Hindu asks questions about it.

Arunachala Siva.     

[Subramanian.R]

Dear srkudai,

Annamalai Swami himself felt anguish for such a desire appearing in his mind.  Added to that Sri Bhagavan made him sit on a hot
brick for two hours.  (I do not remember whether he confessed to Sri Bhagavan or Sri Bhagavan Himself knew it and gave the
'punishment'.)


Arunachala Siva.

[Nagaraj]

Yes. Sandha vandhana chanting says that 'I may have done in the day or in the night many many  sins, with my penis etc.,
And there is a prayaschittam!

This prayaschittam business is a foolish concept. One would do prayaschittam and continue to do the same sin.
In genuine commitment of 'sins', the true prayschittam is seeking forgiveness from God and ABSTAINING FROM DOING
THE SAME 'SIN'.

We see in puranas, Chandra did mischief with his own Guru's wife. And Chandra did praysachittam. What nonsense!
Such stories would be embarassing when a non Hindu asks questions about it.

Dear i,

this may be your belief. However, there is much more to these than how simply you have seen it! i think it is really needless for me to try and explain all these. the Mantras are a voice for themselves!

we need not be ashamed or embarrassing with anybody, the puranas can stand on their own. It is only lack of our understanding that needs to be looked within. Not what Chandra did!

Prostrations to Bhagavan

[Subramanian.R]

Dear Nagaraj,

While chanting some mantras, there is a sentence, - please forgive me for achara heenam (inadequacy of purity), kriya heenam
(inadequacy of doing the chanting properly, with kara nyasam, anga nyasam etc.,) and bhakti heenam (without devotion, a mindless
chanting of mantras).  This is quite fine. These inadequacies are there for every one of us and it should be forgiven, one can ask.

But prayaschittam - somehow I am not able to digest. Still I feel a correct prayaschittam is only to seek forgiveness of the deity
and then not to repeat the sins for which forgiveness has been sought.

Arunachala Siva.   

[srkudai]

Yes repeating the sin is more or less a compulsive obsessive disorder.

With regards desires & mind management, what I was trying to express was that there are always two things to do.
when already infactuated by a desire, how to manage it. For example someone hurt, and that hurt
is deep within and that arises again and again to haunt the person. how to manage this.
this is one aspect of management of mind.

Another aspect of management of mind is , when one is hurt --- what allowed the hurt to be possible?
Can I insulate myself from the hurt ?

A holistic approach to management involves both these aspects. And its intensely practical. One cannot
have a theoretical idea about this.

Sex for example is not a sin. But adultery is. Someone may ask "When its with consent, why do we call it a sin", its so because its adharmic. Adharmic means when one does it, one gets "Deeper" into samsara and gets drowned. All Adharma has to be shunned.

Though sex is not a sin, sex too is a strong mental desire. Physically what happens, happens. But mentally one needs to be able to manage this! A spiritual sadhaka, especially, should maintain certain regulations and should exercise complete control. Thats a must. If this is not done, then it becomes a big hurdle.

[srkudai]

if I remember it correctly, Sharada mata said that if one chants 21 malas of mantra every day, the mind automatically comes into total control. I think its time for us to try.
Mantra has to be chanted with understanding. Because mananat trayate iti mantrah, that which saves upon mananam ... not upon repeating.
For example "OM" is well explained in vedanta.
OM NAMah Sivaya ... Namah ... na-mama ... not me! no me! only Siva ... And OM is THAT. When one meditates that, the mantra has  a special significance and it becomes a manana sadhana.

Or Arunachala Siva ... Aruna - Achala. Achala is mountain, coz its motionless. And Aruna -- Bright light or Fire. And That Aruna-Achala is Siva :Pure. Pure means what ? what is pure milk ? its unmixed with anything else. It alone IS. that Siva, which is Light [ie, Awareness] and achala, motionless, STill. Thats the mantra. Repeating it continuously and meditating by being that Awareness ... thats Wonderful aid.

in final talks, at one place, Annamalai swami says that this kind of japa is very high sadhana.

[Hari]

All dear friends,
the first impediment, even greater than the sin itself, for me, is the feel of guilt. Guilt makes people powerless and weak. You cannot progress in your sadhana without first to remove your feel of guilt. Guilt is wide separation from the Self, much wider than the desire for food, money or sex. One of the deep psychological causes for turn to religion is the desire God to discharge you from this destructive feeling. For evidence you can take Christianity and see how destructive spiritually it was during the centuries and even to this day. That is because so call christian preachers sow the seed of guilt and self-imperfection and their followers sink lower and lower and lower. That's why I always escape to use the word 'sin' because it brings very 'guilt-giving' connotations.

[Ravi.N]

Ramana,
What you say is indeed valid.Here is an excerpt from The Gospel Of Sri Ramakrishna:
"Once someone gave me a book of the Christians. I asked him to read it to me. It talked
about nothing but sin. (To Keshab) Sin is the only thing one hears of at your Brahmo
Samaj, too. The wretch who constantly says, 'I am bound, I am bound' only succeeds in
being bound. He who says day and night, 'I am a sinner, I am a sinner' verily becomes a
sinner.
Redeeming power of faith
"One should have such burning faith in God that one can say: 'What? I have repeated the
name of God, and can sin still cling to me? How can I be a sinner any more? How can I be
in bondage any more?'
"If a man repeats the name of God, his body, mind, and everything become pure. Why
should one talk only about sin and hell, and such things? Say but once, 'O Lord, I have
undoubtedly done wicked things, but I won't repeat them.' And have faith in His name."
Sri Ramakrishna became intoxicated with divine love and sang:
If only I can pass away repeating Durga's name,
How canst Thou then, O Blessed One,
Withhold from me deliverance,
Wretched though I may be? . . .
Master's prayer
Then he said: "To my Divine Mother I prayed only for pure love. I offered flowers at Her
Lotus Feet and prayed to Her: 'Mother, here is Thy virtue, here is Thy vice. Take them both
and grant me only pure love for Thee. Here is Thy knowledge, here is Thy ignorance. Take
them both and grant me only pure love for Thee. Here is Thy purity, here is Thy impurity.
Take them both, Mother, and grant me only pure love for Thee. Here is Thy dharma, here is
Thy adharma. Take them both, Mother, and grant me only pure love for Thee.'
Ramana,I have posted a link to the pdf copy of 'Spiritual Practice'.I recommend this.you may like to check it.
Namaskar.

[Subramanian.R]

Yes. Sri Bhagavan has also said that 'it is only for one who thinks he is bound, there is bondage and (yearning) for liberation.'
(Ulladu Narpadu, Verse 39).

Arunachala Siva.

[Hari]

Dear, Sri Ravi, thank you for this book. I really appreciate it!

Dear all, today I meditated about the attitude of the mind is how important it is. And I also analyzed the thinking and attitude of Lord Ramana's students. I found a some kind of self-deception. I will explain why. Almost all of Sri Ramana's devotees always repeat "I am nothing. I can do nothing. All is predestined." But what have I found? When they must shun from something they like they say "Oh, this is my destiny. I must do it". When some problem appears then again their attitude is "Oh, I am helpless. Why should I do anything when I have not any power. All is predestined." This way of thinking in my opinion is far away from Lord Ramana's teachings. All His devotees repeat like a broken gramophone His saying: "The Ordainer controls the fate of souls in accordance with their prarabdhakarma (destiny to be worked out in this life, resulting from the balance-sheet of actions in past lives). Whatever is destined not to happen will not happen, try as you may. Whatever is destined to happen will happen, do what you may to prevent it. This is certain. The best course, therefore, is to remain silent." The question is what that means and why the Lord has said it. Is it said because it is the ultimate truth or because this is best attitude of the mind to train it to surrender completely. I think it is the second. In my own word Lord Ramana has said: "Surrender to the Lord and transfer all your burdens to Him. Accept that all that happens is according to His Will and stop the doership. This way one day you will lose the illusion of separate existence and you will realize the Self". People use this sentence of the Lord like sectarian view similar to religious dogmatists. This sentence is prescription forthe way to Saranagathi. I don't see alternative for bhaktas who want union with God. Losing responsibility for your own life leads to losing of the "I-thought" and eventually bhakta "becomes" non-exitent and the Pure existence remains. God is not Person outside you. He is your own Self, remember? So interpeting that some God outside you commands your life is just creating new illusion according to Lord Ramana's teachings.

Glory to Lord Ramana!

[Ravi.N]

Friends,
An Excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
The Master talked with M. - now standing, now pacing up and down the long verandah.
MASTER: "A little spiritual discipline is necessary in order to know what lies within."
M: "Is it necessary to practise discipline all through life?"
MASTER: "No. But one must be up and doing in the beginning. After that one need not
work hard. The helmsman stands up and clutches the rudder firmly as long as the boat is
passing through waves, storms, high wind, or around the curves of a river; but he relaxes
after steering through them. As soon as the boat passes the curves and the helmsman feels a
favourable wind, he sits comfortably and just touches the rudder. Next he prepares to unfurl
the sail and gets ready for a smoke. Likewise, the aspirant enjoys peace and calm after
passing the waves and storms of 'woman and gold'.
Namaskar.

[Nagaraj]

மீகாமன் இல்லாமல் மாகாற் றலைகலம்
ஆகாமற் காத்தருள் அருணாசலா (79)

Miikaamannn Illaamal Maakaarr Rralaikalam
Aakaamarr Kaattarull Arunnaacalaa

In the ocean of samsara the ship of life will be wrecked
unless it is steered by the helmsman, the I (தான் , taan - Self)

Prostrations to Bhagavan