Fundamental question about Mind!

[Hari]

Dear all, what I wanted to say is that the Mind always tries to maintain Itself, the Duality, even in very refined form. We say "I will do Self-inquiry but I will continue to live my the life at tha same manner". We put Self-inquiry or whatever method we have chosen on the second place. Mind always concocts excuses and attaches to philosophies which suit It. The Mind doesn't want to destroy Itself. The Mind survives even when we have come to only 'I, I' state. So how to destroy It? Do we need? How to destroy something which is basically non-existent? We cannot destroy the Mind and we don't need to. The only thing that is needed is to always be the Self. When you are always the Self what is the problem if the Mind is there or not? When the illusion that the Mind something other than the Self colapses how could the Mind troubles you?

Glory to Lord Ramana!

[Nagaraj]

Dear i,

i discern, this question will remain so long, the enquirer sees itself as different from mind.

Prostrations to Bhagavan

[Hari]

And there is another thing that troubles me. Do we really want to 'destroy' Maya? Don't we use Self-inquiry or Surrender as temporary relief and something like anti-stress technique? Have any of you meditated on this matter?

[sanjaya_ganesh]

Do we really want to 'destroy' Maya?

In my mind, any "want" will not to let you stay in the being. Including the "want" to destroy maya? And - on a lighter note - what is "we" here. If it is - we , the ego - it can no way "destroy" maya - as it is by itself maya

-Sanjay

[Nagaraj]

Dear i,

there is one beautiful story as told by Sri Bhagavan: Once two persons were sleeping in a hall. Both were poor. During the sleep, one man was dreaming. He dreamt that he is a very rich person and he has stacked all the gold and currency in a cupboard. And a thief comes and takes away all the gold and currency, and runs away. The dreaming man shouts in shock: "O! the thief is running away with all my wealth, Please catch him, please catch him...." The other man woke up. He was not dreaming anything, neither the thief, nor the gold and currency. What shall he do? Will he run out to the front yard to catch the thief? Will he rush to the police station to complain? He will simply wake that wailing man from sleep and dream.

Self Enquiry or any other Sadhana, or any other way that one practices, is only to discern the truth alone, the practice of sadhana itself is nothing. The moment the Clarity has been seen, there is no more requirement of any sadhana.

It is like taking all precautions in trying to figure all about the ghost was seen, but there after practice of Vichara or any sadhana, one discerns that there is no ghost and after all it is just a light post or something.

One realises basically, there is nothing to destroy or even discover. He simply reposes knowing thus.

One may use any sadhana for temporary relief, one may use even Self Enquiry for temporary relief, but it is certain that it is just temporary relief, and therefore, slowly, one gets disgusted with such temporary relief, when such disgust raises, Vairagya results, and one aspires, and dedicates his whole to sort out the matter, no matter what, to find out the truth of it all.

I discern, there are 2 kinds of Sadhakas, Dear i, one who are devoted, but the thirst for realisation is not upto mark, they are just content with daily prayers and and aware that they have to attain liberation, but they do not do anything consciously at the moment, for they realise they want to enjoy the phenomenon world, they want to enjoy relationships, they want to enjoy family, luxury, so on, in a right way. But there is another kind of sadhaka, whose only waking purpose is to attain liberation, and all else is only secondary to him, no matter he may be in worldly life and operating and fulfilling his duties properly, he does not relish or have attachment to anything. His only aim is to attain liberation alone. Such a one truly realises very soon.

The first kind of sadhaka may use Self Enquiry as a temporary relief, but the second kind of devotee uses Self enquiry or any sadhana for realisation alone. This is the subtle difference, he is not bothered about temporary pains and temporary dukhas or sufferings. He realises that imagining Mayas as Maya is the greatest Maya.

Prostrations to Bhagavan

[sanjaya_ganesh]

The first kind of sadhaka may use Self Enquiry as a temporary relief, but the second kind of devotee uses Self enquiry or any sadhana for realisation alone. This is the subtle difference, he is not bothered about temporary pains and temporary dukhas or sufferings. He realises that imagining Mayas as Maya is the greatest Maya.

Very well said. Any "imagination" is a trap .

-Sanjay

[Hari]

There is another problem which is difficult to be solved intellectually. By Self-inquiry we are looking for the ego. But how can I find something which is non-existent? Isn't Self-inquiry something like thoughtless meditation, e.g. trying to stay in thoughtless 'state'?

[sanjaya_ganesh]

There is another problem which is difficult to be solved intellectually. By Self-inquiry we are looking for the ego. But how can I find something which is non-existent? Isn't Self-inquiry something like thoughtless meditation, e.g. trying to stay in thoughtless 'state'?

Ramana - In my mind, it is best to go back to the basic scriptures for these rather than interpretations by anyone - whoever it is and however great that person is. Upanishads and Bhagavatha has a common answer written all over directly and indirectly as we all know. Creation starts when "Sankalpa" originates in the Supreme Brahman. So any Sankalpa is creation which is Maya in supreme. So it is obviously a very simple logic that when Sankalpa (thoughts) stop, creations must stop - which in other words means no more births.  An ego created thoughtless state may not be same as a sankalpa-less state.

-Sanjay

[Nagaraj]

There is another problem which is difficult to be solved intellectually. By Self-inquiry we are looking for the ego. But how can I find something which is non-existent? Isn't Self-inquiry something like thoughtless meditation, e.g. trying to stay in thoughtless 'state'?

Dear i,

this is the million dolar question. but secret is that, one is asked to conduct Self Enquiry only to quieten the asking mind. The mind, will never subside unless it is given an unsolvable puzzle, and by it, it attains concentration, by which all other thoughts are stopped in a natural way, no suppression, purely directly.

As it searches, searches, searches, facing all sorts of confusion and repeated questioning here and there, trying to seek more and more answers, it realises, eventually, that no answers are helping in its search.

It therefore realises that there is NO SELF TO DISCOVER, other than itself - that which is itself searching!

The Self has nothing to do with thoughts, whether there are thoughts are no thoughts are irrelevant.

Sri Bhagavan says: That which makes the enquiry is the ego. The `I' about which the enquiry is made is also the ego. As the result of the enquiry the ego ceases to exist and only the Self is found to exist.

Here, english translation says "the ego ceases to exist and only the Self is found to exist." but i am sure this is not the original tamil equivalent word ("found") as there is no finding, as the ego, now realises, itself as Self, for by this time it has refined and all the Malas, doshas have disappeared because of repeated practice of Self Enquiry.

Prostrations to Bhagavan

[Subramanian.R]

Dear sanjaya_ganesh,

What is Maya? It is indescribable.  How can one destroy that which one cannot itself describe? It is like a dream. Why for
someone dreams occur in sleep? You cannot even describe how the dreams occur. Then how to destroy them and sleep a
dreamless sleep everyday?  One cannot destroy the Maya. One can however transcend Maya. When a dog sleeps on the road,
you cannot destroy the dog to walk further.  You can only walk past it either by jumping over it or taking a path without
stamping on it.

See this beautiful conversation of Maharshi in Talks:

Devotee: They say that Sakti creates the world. Is the knowledge of unreality due to the unveiling of Maya?

Maharshi: All admit Sakti's creation. What is the nature of the Creatrix? It can only be in conformity with the nature of
creation. The Creatrix is of the same nature as Her creation.

Devotee: Are there degrees of illusion?

Maharshi: Illusion is itself illusory. Illusion must be seen by one beyond  it. Can such a seer be subject to illusion? Can
he then speak of degrees of illusion?

There are scenes floating on the screen in a cinema show. Fire appears to burn buildings to ashes. Water seems to wreck
vessels. But the screen on which the pictures are projected remain unscorched and dry. Why?

Because the pictures are unreal and the screen is real.

Change your angle of vision to one of Jnana and then find the universe only to be Brahman. Being now in the world, you see
the world as such. Get BEYOND IT AND THIS WILL DISAPPEAR, THE REALITY ALONE WILL SHINE.

*

Someone asked Annamalai Swami: Does the mind (= read Maya) die gradually or suddenly?

Annamalai Swami: One answer is: When the Sun comes up, does the darkness disappear suddenly or gradually?

Sri Bhagavan, speaking on this topic, once remarked:-  Someone mistakes a rope hanging in the darkness for a snake.
He then asks how many years it will take for the snake to die?

This is a better answer: If the mind does not exist, it cannot die either quickly or slowly.

*

The idea is to transcend the mind and not try to describe it. If the mind is transcended, there is no Maya.

Or to take the path of bhakti marga, when you pray to Maya: Please do not test me. Then she becomes Suddha Maya.
One who directs you to Brahman. If you do not pray to Her, she becomes asuddha maya, the one who can test you
and make you suffer. She is avidya and also Vidya.

vidya avidya swarupini; jada sakti jadathmika; she is also Chaitanya rupini. The form of Consciousness. See Lalita
Sahasranamam.

Arunachala Siva.           
               

[srkudai]

I concor with Subramanian ji. One does not destroy maya. Trying to destroy maya is like trying to burry a shadow as Annamalai Swami ji says.

[Hari]

Watching this animation video strong emotion emerge in me, about how deep is the connection between the Student and the Guru. Yes, the context here is a little different but is very close to what we mean by Teacher/Student connection. The Guru always gives strength to the Student and say to him that He always will be with him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tRepZdoRmY

[Hari]

What is Maya? It is indescribable.  How can one destroy that which one cannot itself describe? It is like a dream. Why for
someone dreams occur in sleep? You cannot even describe how the dreams occur. Then how to destroy them and sleep a
dreamless sleep everyday?  One cannot destroy the Maya. One can however transcend Maya. When a dog sleeps on the road,
you cannot destroy the dog to walk further.  You can only walk past it either by jumping over it or taking a path without
stamping on it.

Yes, Sri Subramanian. Maya cannot be destroyed if we consider It as a dream. The question is what is the purpose of the 'jivas" - to destroy all forms, names and so on or just to be the Self? Here lies the problem. Many people (really!) think that jnanis are like blind, deaf and so on people and some force leads them to do what they do. Does Self-realization mean absence of thoughts or just absence of identifications with them knowing that they are just manifestation of your Self? What is transcendence of Maya?

[Nagaraj]

Are thoughts different from Self? For Jnani, manifests himself as thoughts, at will. thoughts are not different from Self.

Prostrations to Bhagavan

[Nagaraj]

Dear i,

For that Self, what could be there to either identify with or even not identify with? can there be anything apart itself?

As that Self, there is only Self, Thoughts are Self, everything is itself.

Prostrations to Bhagavan