Author Topic: Fundamental question about Mind!  (Read 173461 times)

Hari

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1811
    • View Profile
Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #240 on: May 25, 2012, 03:08:08 PM »
But why there is difference for us? Some says that Self-realization means dead mind, so there is no any thoughts. Others say that jnani must experience His prarabdha karma. If Atma-jnana means dead mind then how jnani functions. It is very confusing for me.
Web Page dedicated to the Great Sages:
https://someoneelsebg.000webhostapp.com/Sages/HTML.html

Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4132
    • View Profile
Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #241 on: May 25, 2012, 03:13:21 PM »
Dear i,

Mrta Manasa, means dead mind, which means, the thoughts don't come about at its will, like it comes to one who is in duality. For a Jnana Nishta, thoughts come only when it is required. For instance, only when somebody spoke to Sri Bhagavan, asked some question, did Sri Bhagavan if, he wills to answer, does he Himself manifest as thoughts and speech. It is said that a Jnani's Mind is Brahman itself.

For us, there is difference because, we are still unable to fathom that there is no difference. there is duality still present, but as of now we all trust the words of all Jnanis' who have only said that there is Non Duality. But it is only not yet discerned.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
मनश्चेन्न लग्नं गुरोरंघ्रिपद्मे ततः किं ततः किं ततः किं ततः किम् ।।

Manaschenna lagnam Gurorangri padme, Thatha kim Thathah Kim, Thathah kim Thathah kim

If the mind does not remain at the Lotus feet of Guru, What is the use? What is the use? What is the use!!

srkudai

  • Guest
Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #242 on: May 25, 2012, 04:03:03 PM »
Mind is always dead!
just dont give it the status of being alive.
thats it.


Subramanian.R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13662
    • View Profile
Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #243 on: May 25, 2012, 04:26:21 PM »
Dear ramana,

First things first.

Dead Mind means only no-thought state. If there is no mind (that is form, see Who am I?) and only thoughts are there, then
dead mind indicates only no-thought state.

Now for a Brahma Jnani or an Atma Jnani it is only a state of abidance in the Self. Since Self and thoughts cannot go together,
it is said that Brahma Jnani cannot have any thoughts. He is like a clean mirror. He reflects only thoughts of devotees and gives
suitable answers depending upon the questioner. Now the question is, how can he speak or compose poems without a thought.
Sri Muruganar answers this point in four verses of Guru Vachaka Kovai:

924:  I declare that even when that mind, in the form of thoughts ceases to function, something remains. That something is the
Reality. Manifesting as time, it operates in a hidden way, abiding as the Temple of Consciousness Bliss.

928:   'Now and then';  'that which is and that which is not''; 'here and there'; a mind that is without even a trace of such thoughts,
and which shines as the eternal, the one, fully present everywhere, is indeed is pure Sivam.

1106: The pure mind of the Jnani, which exists and shines as the Witness, is a mirror that reflects even the impure thoughts that
arise in his presence in those whose minds are completely warped. Thus, he mystifies the minds of others in his presence by giving
the impression that he is a deluded person.

1139: If it is asked, 'We actually see the Jnani performing actions. How can actions be performed in the absence of sense of doership?'
you should be convinced that because his inner attachment, the ego, is dead, he has god himself residing in his Heart, and performing those actions.  (See also Sri Bhagavan's description in entry dated May, 5, 1946, of Day by Day by Devaraja Mudaliar.)

As regards prarabdha, a Jivan Mukta does not have any prarabdha. Prarabdha affects what? If affects only mind/body complex.
The Jivan mukta has no mind-body consciousness and in the absence of an object, the arrow of prarabdha cannot hit anything.

Sri Sankara also says the same in his Viveka Chudamani.

When the attendant asked Sri Bhagavan during His terminal cancer: Is it paining, Bhagavan? Sri Bhagavan answered:
Yes. The body is paining.

It is as if telling, that my shirt has torn! I am not the shirt. I am not the body.  Since a Jivanmukta has to have a body,
according to the onlooker's point of view, the body is said to be 'separate' from him, like a shirt hanging on the coat stand.

Arunachala Siva.                   
 

Subramanian.R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13662
    • View Profile
Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #244 on: May 25, 2012, 04:31:35 PM »
Dear ramana,

The following are the golden words of Sri Bhagavan. Each one is a Mahavakya.

1. Consciousness + mind/ego/thoughts = Jiva.

2. Consciousness - mind/ego/thoughts = a Jivan Mukta.

3. Egolessness is Consciousness.

4. To think is not your real nature. Your true  nature is Being. Not doing something.

Arunachala Siva. 

Hari

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1811
    • View Profile
Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #245 on: May 25, 2012, 05:25:01 PM »
Thank you, Sri Subramanian! Great explanation! But naturally others questions come in my mind. Bhagavan often has said that the mind is bundle of thoughts. If there is no thoughts then how could there be mind? If there is no mind then there is no duality and there is no way of reflecting. When we are in deep sleep there is no thoughts but does that mean that therer is no mind?

And you said:

1. Consciousness + mind/ego/thoughts = Jiva.

I agree. But in deep sleep there is no mind, ego and thoughts. Then why we are not Self-realized then, at least for the time we are asleep? Why there is no awareness?
Web Page dedicated to the Great Sages:
https://someoneelsebg.000webhostapp.com/Sages/HTML.html

Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4132
    • View Profile
Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #246 on: May 25, 2012, 05:34:39 PM »
On the contrary, i discern there is no mind to die. What is, is Just 'you' - That 'You' rises as thoughts and the same 'you' subsides as sleep,. 'You' are a witnessing 'Yourself' as everything.

Self manifests as thoughts. there is no questions such as mind being different from 'You' There is just 'You' which can't really claim to say "My Mind" when one says, my mind, one is infering oneself. It is just like seeing your reflection in mirror and you say, that is i. but the existence in mirror is false, you are where you are, ie. not in the mirror.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
मनश्चेन्न लग्नं गुरोरंघ्रिपद्मे ततः किं ततः किं ततः किं ततः किम् ।।

Manaschenna lagnam Gurorangri padme, Thatha kim Thathah Kim, Thathah kim Thathah kim

If the mind does not remain at the Lotus feet of Guru, What is the use? What is the use? What is the use!!

srkudai

  • Guest
Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #247 on: May 25, 2012, 05:36:44 PM »
Dear Ramana,
        :) Mind has avarna shakti [the power to viel our true nature] and vikshepa shakti [the power to project things].
in waking and dream sleep "avarna + vikshepa" are functional.
in deep sleep: avarna is functional.

So Jnana , when learnt from a proper guru and when firmness of conviction is gained... aids in removing avarna. Once Avarna is removed, vikshepa also subsides eventually. So this one liberates oneself.

ignorance can only be removed through knowledge. i do not know my true nature, thats the problem. the solution is not to stop the projections of mind. people try to calm mind. that is simply reducing the projections. that wont help. knowledge is required which removes ignorance and then vikshepa needs to be undone. thats the way.

Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4132
    • View Profile
Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #248 on: May 25, 2012, 05:39:00 PM »
Mind has avarna shakti [the power to viel our true nature] and vikshepa shakti [the power to project things].
in waking and dream sleep "avarna + vikshepa" are functional.
in deep sleep: avarna is functional.

Dear i,

where does the mind get its Avarna Shakti. Just for your contemplation, i question - you say mind is dead, then how does it have Avarna Shakti? just ponder..

The moon derives light from Sun, not itself, and the Sun derives its light from 'You'

The source of everything is just 'You' or 'i'

Prostrations to Bhagavan
मनश्चेन्न लग्नं गुरोरंघ्रिपद्मे ततः किं ततः किं ततः किं ततः किम् ।।

Manaschenna lagnam Gurorangri padme, Thatha kim Thathah Kim, Thathah kim Thathah kim

If the mind does not remain at the Lotus feet of Guru, What is the use? What is the use? What is the use!!

Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4132
    • View Profile
Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #249 on: May 25, 2012, 05:41:47 PM »
Dear i (all)

Shankara's Ekashloki -

किं ज्योतिस्तवभानुमानहनि मे रात्रौ प्रदीपादिकं
स्यादेवं रविदीपदर्शनविधौ किं ज्योतिराख्याहि मे ।
चक्षुस्तस्य निमीलनादिसमये किं धीर्धियो दर्शने
किं तत्राहमतो भवान्परमकं ज्योतिस्तदस्मि प्रभो ॥
इति श्रीमत्परमहंसपरिव्राजकाचार्यस्य
श्रीगोविन्दभगवत्पूज्यपादशिष्यस्य

Bhagavan Ramana adopted the same in Ulladu Naarpadu Anubandham (7)

Master : ‘By what light do you see?’
Disciple : ‘The sun by day, the lamp by night.’
M : ‘By what light do you see these lights?’
D : ‘The eye.’
M : ‘By what light do you see the eye?’
D : ‘The mind.’
M : ‘By what light do you know the mind?’
D : ‘My Self.’
M : ‘You then are the Light of Lights.’
D : ‘Yes, That I am.’

Prostrations to Bhagavan
मनश्चेन्न लग्नं गुरोरंघ्रिपद्मे ततः किं ततः किं ततः किं ततः किम् ।।

Manaschenna lagnam Gurorangri padme, Thatha kim Thathah Kim, Thathah kim Thathah kim

If the mind does not remain at the Lotus feet of Guru, What is the use? What is the use? What is the use!!

Hari

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1811
    • View Profile
Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #250 on: May 25, 2012, 05:44:34 PM »
Quote
ignorance can only be removed through knowledge. i do not know my true nature, thats the problem. the solution is not to stop the projections of mind. people try to calm mind. that is simply reducing the projections. that wont help. knowledge is required which removes ignorance and then vikshepa needs to be undone. thats the way.

Sri Udai, what more knowledge do we need? We have read so many about Advaita, Jnana, Ramana and so on that many of us can write books even now. As you say calming the mind doesn't work. Ok, I will calm it down but then what? It will become active again.
Web Page dedicated to the Great Sages:
https://someoneelsebg.000webhostapp.com/Sages/HTML.html

srkudai

  • Guest
Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #251 on: May 25, 2012, 05:45:27 PM »
Dear Nagaraj,
           :) Its true that both avarna shakti and vikshepa shakti are just maya... meaning ya ma.

and also to be noted. its wrong to say thoughts are "in" Self or Self. because thoughts belong to the realm of mithya which is infact not there at all. like a snake. is it correct to say snake is rope ? yes, but that means snake is not there ... only rope is.
otherwise snake can never be the rope. coz rope is changeless and snake is changing. thats exactly how thoughts are Self. because thougths are not there , Self alone IS.

Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4132
    • View Profile
Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #252 on: May 25, 2012, 05:49:54 PM »
Dear i,

there is no ignorance at all!

Even when the clouds hide the Sun (Self) by which light is one able to say, the clouds are hiding the Sun(Self) -- it is again through the light of Sun(Self) itself.

Self is known even NOW. to each one of us. There is no doubt here - about this truth!

When there is no ignorance, when there is no Maya, what are we all trying to over come? which ignorance are we trying to overcome? which mind are we trying to destroy?

Prostrations to Bhagavan
मनश्चेन्न लग्नं गुरोरंघ्रिपद्मे ततः किं ततः किं ततः किं ततः किम् ।।

Manaschenna lagnam Gurorangri padme, Thatha kim Thathah Kim, Thathah kim Thathah kim

If the mind does not remain at the Lotus feet of Guru, What is the use? What is the use? What is the use!!

srkudai

  • Guest
Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #253 on: May 25, 2012, 05:50:36 PM »
Dear Ramana,
         :) Firstly Jnana is NOT intellectual understanding. Jnana is a change in "Perspective" thats Firm.
If you have that change, then you do not "Seek" anything else. Because u are already Firm that you are the Self.

if that Firmness is not there, remove all the doubts first and then constantly meditate and create that firmness.


Subramanian.R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13662
    • View Profile
Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #254 on: May 25, 2012, 05:50:47 PM »
Dear ramana,

1, Yes. Sri Bhagavan has said that a mind is bundle of thoughts. Now what does it mean? Suppose there is a bunch of grapes.
If each grape is consumed, then what remains? Only the stem. The stem is of no use, is it not? Sri Bhagavan has said one
more simile for thought-less mind. It is like a dhadha vatam, a burnt coir. The burnt coir has got a form but it is of no use to
'bind' anything.   

2, The reflecting takes place in the Self or pure mind. Pure mind (thoughtless mind) is Self. (Nagaraj explained this recently).
Pure Mind is only a substitute term for the onlooker's point of view. This is nothing but the Self.

In deep sleep, there are no thoughts and so three is no mind also.

Deep sleep = no mind, no thoughts, only Atma and nescience. latent tendencies.

dream state = half blossoming mind, Atma and nescience.

Waking state = fully blossomed mind, Atma and nescience.

If this nescience also is extinguished, that is Self Realized state. Self Inquiry, Sri Bhagavan says, will burn the nescience too.

The Self Realized State is Atma Swarupam.

3.  Why one can not achieve self realization only by continuously sleeping? One reason is that there are still latent tendencies.
The second  reason is not IT IS A DULL STATE. When one wakes up, starting from I thought, all thieves will march to smother
you.

In Self Realization, which can be attained only waking state, the self inquiry kills the latent tendencies.   

4. Such a Jnani remains ever with Awareness, and in waking state, dream state and deep sleep state too. The dullness of
deep sleep is not there. Such a Jnani who is in Sahaja Samadhi with inward looking vacant gaze, is said to be in
'sleepless sleep.'  A saint poet sang: thoongAmal thoongi sukam peruvathu ekkAlam? When shall I attain that state
of sleep less sleep and attain Sukam?

Sri Bhagavan also said in Verse 37 of Akshara Mana Malai:

If I slumber in quiet repose, enjoying the Bliss of Being, what other moksha is there, tell me, O Arunachala!         

Arunachala Siva.