Author Topic: Fundamental question about Mind!  (Read 173471 times)

Nagaraj

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #270 on: May 25, 2012, 06:40:56 PM »
Dear i,

Sri Bhagavan has been very categorical in sharing about Self Enquiry. You will remember very well, when an old village woman cam and lamented to Sri Bhagavan how she is facing so much difficulties, and when she sought Sri Bhagavan's help, He asked her, whether she had those difficulties during her sleep, and she affirmed in No, Sri Bhagavan said, so it is only when you wake from slep all these problems have arised, so enquire who is this 'I' and all problmes will disappear.

Ganapati Muni who was beside during this incident was rather surprised and asked Bhagavan as why he told this such big brahma vidya to such an innocent villager, what would she know about enquiry and all? and suggedted to Him that he could pehaps have asked her to chant om nama shivaya or something. Sri Bhagavan expressed immdiately that this is what he knows and this is what he can tell people and let all others share what ever they know.

He never saw any differences Dear i. Each soul is potentially divine.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
मनश्चेन्न लग्नं गुरोरंघ्रिपद्मे ततः किं ततः किं ततः किं ततः किम् ।।

Manaschenna lagnam Gurorangri padme, Thatha kim Thathah Kim, Thathah kim Thathah kim

If the mind does not remain at the Lotus feet of Guru, What is the use? What is the use? What is the use!!

Subramanian.R

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #271 on: May 25, 2012, 07:35:39 PM »
Dear Nagaraj,

Yes. Every jiva is potentially divine.  Sri Bhagavan also told about Self Inquiry to even village women, why even to monkeys.
But there it was Guru Vakyam. Words of a divine Guru. Hence it has its effects even at least with some of them. But we are
not gurus and what we say is only quoting guru vakyam. We are all in the same boat sharing Sri Bhagavan's teachings.
Since we are not Gurus, we can at best post His words and leave the sadhakas to attain the grace by beseeching Sri Bhagavan
for Grace. But certain fundamental questions have to be answered, since we lack that status of Guru, a Sadguru, who is ever
abiding in the Self.

As otherwise, if all of us can understand self inquiry and do sadhana of our own, then this Forum which gives interactive clarifications
need not be there at all. Alas, it is not the case. We read books on Sri Bhagavan and about His teachings. We do not possess the
sublime state of a Sadguru like Sri Bhagavan. Hence clarifications from the conventional advaita becomes essential. It is a form
of essentially disciple to disciple interaction. Here apart from quoting Sri Bhagavan, we have to say some traditional principles too.

If I merely say, You are Brahman, do not worry about anything, then perhaps some one (not Ramana) may simply chant I am
Brahman, I am Brahman for ever and may not progress at all.


Arunachala Siva.     

Nagaraj

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #272 on: May 25, 2012, 08:04:22 PM »
Dear i,

before i discern and respond to your concern, i would be happy to hear from other members as well, as to what their views are.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
मनश्चेन्न लग्नं गुरोरंघ्रिपद्मे ततः किं ततः किं ततः किं ततः किम् ।।

Manaschenna lagnam Gurorangri padme, Thatha kim Thathah Kim, Thathah kim Thathah kim

If the mind does not remain at the Lotus feet of Guru, What is the use? What is the use? What is the use!!

Nagaraj

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #273 on: May 25, 2012, 08:14:13 PM »
Dear all,

I request one and all to kindly share your views on what Sri Subramanian Sir has expressed. It is the members, one and all, who are to express what is the code of conduct here, what needs to be expressed, where to limit our exchanges of thoughts and so on. If the Admin Sri Graham deems it worthy and fit, i request him to share his opinions as well, as it would provide great clarity, on how this forum has to proceed, and on what grounds Sadhakas can express themselves and where to exercise limit or restraint and so on.

For personally, though i respect Subramanian Sir's concern, i do not see anywhere any undue expressions! All that has been expressed are expressed with sincere discernment and keeping the questioner(in the thread) in mind, and they are not just mere parroting for simply for argument sake. What is being expressed are very essential and important for ones own discernment. At some point, one has to face such contradictions and confusions.

So dear all, kindly do share your views.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
« Last Edit: May 25, 2012, 08:23:22 PM by Nagaraj »
मनश्चेन्न लग्नं गुरोरंघ्रिपद्मे ततः किं ततः किं ततः किं ततः किम् ।।

Manaschenna lagnam Gurorangri padme, Thatha kim Thathah Kim, Thathah kim Thathah kim

If the mind does not remain at the Lotus feet of Guru, What is the use? What is the use? What is the use!!

Ravi.N

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #274 on: May 26, 2012, 06:52:17 AM »
Subramanian/Nagaraj/friends,
1.What our friend subramanian has expressed is indeed true that there are no stock replies to any problem.It is true that when a Great one says something it has a profound effect in the mind of the listener and this power comes from the Power of Truth that he lives and embodies.

2.Yet it is also true that one can learn from others irrespective of who or what they are.One who has encountered difficulties on the path and has overcome them is certainly in a position to share his learning with another who is facing a difficulty-and here again there are two options for the one who shares:
1.Quote the words of a Great one so that the contextual relevance is seen and understood.
2.Say it simply in one's own words and leave it at that.
Often it may so happen that such sharing may not be heard or understood by the person addressed to ,and sometimes they may be dismissed outright as well.One may then leave it at that,what else to do!

3.Coming to whether someone is a Beginner or advanced seeker-this is a touchy subject!Most often these are based on perceptions and may very well be wrong.In general the more advanced a seeker is, the more he will feel that he is only a Beginner who is yet to step on the path;the more  will he be open,receptive and understand that there are many sides to Truth.

I have one question for Nagaraj-What do you mean by discernment?I find you are using this word so frequently and I also find that there are amendments that follow soon after.
Namaskar.



Nagaraj

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #275 on: May 26, 2012, 09:00:08 AM »
I have one question for Nagaraj-What do you mean by discernment?I find you are using this word so frequently and I also find that there are amendments that follow soon after.

Dear i,

Discernment is simply seeing 'what is' it is pure negation of what is not.

when i say it is straight and simple - what ever be discernment, that which discerns, Himself, cannot be discerned, this, is yet another, discernment, that this Discerner which cannot be discerned is the Self. All my posts aspire to bring focus only this Discerner alone.

If any amendments are made, they are only made to correct the English and grammatical errors of typos. However, if i do post complete new amendment, i post those discernment in new post stating, i differ from my previous post.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
मनश्चेन्न लग्नं गुरोरंघ्रिपद्मे ततः किं ततः किं ततः किं ततः किम् ।।

Manaschenna lagnam Gurorangri padme, Thatha kim Thathah Kim, Thathah kim Thathah kim

If the mind does not remain at the Lotus feet of Guru, What is the use? What is the use? What is the use!!

srkudai

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #276 on: May 26, 2012, 09:11:27 AM »
Dear Subramanian,
       :) Neither Ramana nor any of us are beginners. Neither Ramana nor any of us are advanced. We are simply the Self.
Whether we know it or not.

When intellectually this is not appreciated, what you say is true... we need to "Explain". This is where "discernment" [nagraj garu :)] comes into picture. Its very very importatn. once the basics are done, one has to carry this discernment to the level of mananam and use it to remain established in Self.

If intellectually its clear that "I AM Awareness, untouched by mind/body" ... Then, one simply has to be Firm with it. Firmness of Conviction is developed by again and again "Being IT". Like the squirrel example Ramana gave ... each time it comes out, place it back in.
If one is able to "Just Be" even for a moment, that means his only task is to keep reverting back to "That" again and again. That is even if we are consciously able to remain

if ever the mind says "I am still a beginner"... "Who is a beginner? Awareness does not begin, does not end". Thus one reverts back & corrects the ego. If we see Ribbhu Gita, from the first line to the last it has only one thing to say "World is not there, i am awareness". And the fact taht Bhagavan recommended it means that he wants people to gain that conviction. That firmness. So there are scriptures that talk about "Sristi dristi vadam", which are studied to understand our true nature. The scriptures of Dristi sristi vadam are for deep mananam and those that speak ajat vada are for nidhidhyasam.

Swami Vivekananda always stressed the need to shakeoff the petty notions and limitations and stand as Awareness constantly. Thats of utmost importance.


Ravi.N

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #277 on: May 26, 2012, 09:45:34 AM »
Nagaraj,
"However, if i do post complete new amendment, i post those discernment in new post stating, i differ from my previous post"
It is obvious that the 'Disceernment' is shifting and changing.What is the nature of this 'Discernment'? :)
Namaskar.

Nagaraj

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #278 on: May 26, 2012, 10:04:29 AM »
Dear i,

is the change more important or the Discernment? It is upto the reader to discern Himself, whether he wishes to pursue discussion for argument sake or discern what is truth.

One has to chose wisely, what is important. Whether to prove the other wrong or discern what is truth.

These are the very movements, that distract one.

In this very thread, Reply No. 118 i had discerned as follows:
Quote
Dear i, please stay with this discernment, what is discerned can be easily forgotten by passage of time and by the advent of vasanas, other wise, we have to travel once again all through the jungle all over again, needlessly :D

The discernment has not changed, that very discernment is bringing one back to light. That Discerner is prompting back to the right source.

Again, it is discerned what is Not and what only IS.

Just for fact, i would like to mention that it is only in reply No 188, under this thread, i have mentioned as follows:

Quote
Fundamentally, i would like to correct my views from my last post.

Dear i, you have to read the whole continuity of this thread before discerning, that discernment is change. the background of the movement of the thread has to be thoroughly looked into before just arriving at conclusion such as -

It is obvious that the 'Disceernment' is shifting and changing.What is the nature of this 'Discernment'? :)

Isn't the discernment bringing back to right light? This is what one must be concerned with, this is pure discernment. No matter what moves, staying with the light of 'what is' is alone intelligence.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
मनश्चेन्न लग्नं गुरोरंघ्रिपद्मे ततः किं ततः किं ततः किं ततः किम् ।।

Manaschenna lagnam Gurorangri padme, Thatha kim Thathah Kim, Thathah kim Thathah kim

If the mind does not remain at the Lotus feet of Guru, What is the use? What is the use? What is the use!!

Nagaraj

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #279 on: May 26, 2012, 10:12:29 AM »
Dear i,

i never shy or hesitate to bring to notice, the corrections i had to make, i bring it openly that my discernment was wrong, and i stand to correct myself with the current discernment.

One should stay with the aim to discern what is truth alone Dear i, this alone is important.

Discernment moves from base to Self.

Look at Taittiriya Upanishad,

The discernment moves from Annamaya Kosha to discerning finally the Anandamaya Kosha.

Discernment may change, but the Truth that the Discernment focuses on, the aim that the discernment focuses on, never changes.

Hence Discernment brings one to the right light always.

Moroever, As Udai, discerned rightly as follows:

Quote
When intellectually this is not appreciated, what you say is true... we need to "Explain". This is where "discernment" comes into picture

Otherwise there is no discernment necessary.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
मनश्चेन्न लग्नं गुरोरंघ्रिपद्मे ततः किं ततः किं ततः किं ततः किम् ।।

Manaschenna lagnam Gurorangri padme, Thatha kim Thathah Kim, Thathah kim Thathah kim

If the mind does not remain at the Lotus feet of Guru, What is the use? What is the use? What is the use!!

Ravi.N

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #280 on: May 26, 2012, 10:18:26 AM »
Nagaraj,
The Real reason why the 'Discernment' is shifting is on account of the wide gap between 'Thinking' and 'Feeling'. :)
I do not subscribe to argumentation.
I will only point out our discussion sometime back-How we were discussing the difficulty in getting up from Bed,the need for early supper atleast 2 and a 1/2 hrs before going to bed,How this is difficult to practise in every day life on account of our present day life style,et all.This is 'What is'.The actual  Feeling and Doing.
On the other hand is our 'Thought' that 'We are the Self' and nothing but 'That'-This is thinking.
There is this wide gap between our 'Living' and 'Thinking'.
The Beginner is one who is earnest and sets about minimizing the 'Gap'.His chief concern is not whether he is the one undivided Self that he knows nothing about.His chief concern is that if he thinks that he is only a 'man' to Feel,Do and Think as a 'Man'.To harmonize the Feeling,Speaking and Doing-this is the foundation of Sadhana.

Namaskar.

Nagaraj

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #281 on: May 26, 2012, 10:38:33 AM »
Dear i,

the reason why Discernment shifts is due to vasanas - predispositions. and it is yet again discerned that the only way to harmonize every difference is by seeing and being with what is discerned, that pure intellectual understanding of the Truth.

and, on account of vasanas, when one forgets the discernment, one has to bring it back to source.

i believe, this is what all Gurus have been conveying over all ages. Being with God, Being with "I am" Being with "i - thought - where from it originates"

You said:

Quote
The Beginner is one who is earnest and sets about minimizing the 'Gap'.His chief concern is not whether he is the one undivided Self that he knows nothing about.His chief concern is that if he thinks that he is only a 'man' to Feel,Do and Think as a 'Man'.To harmonize the Feeling,Speaking and Doing-this is the foundation of Sadhana.

But, in this thread, what ever is being discussed as of now, was related to the questions expressed by Ramana. How does one decide who is a beginner or advanced?

what was discerned was inspired by the questions themselves.

But, the end is you are putting up a question, whether we can discuss or express ultimate truth here. there is a concern that somebody who oneself perceives as 'beginner' may not benefit these ultimate discernment. is this the concern?

i discern, that such a beginner would himself question again and again, for experiencing the futility of ultimate truth, and by his own earnestness and perseverance he would bring himself up, Uddaret Atmanaatmaanam... On has to uplift oneself by ones own self.

But, this thread being under discussion was not concerning such a sadhaka as above. The questioner in this thread is bringing out or extracting his discernment by the intensity of questions that he has been expressing.

You are pointing out a discussion sometime back How we were discussing the difficulty in getting up from Bed,the need for early supper atleast 2 and a 1/2 hrs before going to bed,How this is difficult to practise in every day life on account of our present day life style,et all.This is 'What is'.The actual  Feeling and Doing.

I see, it wisdom, and discern to move on, historical question and historical difficulty is not there today, as of now. but we unknowingly stay put with historical facts. What was yesterday is not there now, and what will be future is not there now. What is, Is just this, here now.

On the hindsight, if this discernment was arrived at, then, then such a concern would never have arisen. But those questions prompted, expressed have led to the current discernment, which is discerned as The Ultimate Truth. It is also discerned, how important it is to not move away from this discernment, no matter what.

This is my discernment.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
मनश्चेन्न लग्नं गुरोरंघ्रिपद्मे ततः किं ततः किं ततः किं ततः किम् ।।

Manaschenna lagnam Gurorangri padme, Thatha kim Thathah Kim, Thathah kim Thathah kim

If the mind does not remain at the Lotus feet of Guru, What is the use? What is the use? What is the use!!

Ravi.N

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #282 on: May 26, 2012, 10:45:11 AM »
Nagaraj,
Mind!Oh Mind!It is all  mind(Is it not the topic,in whatever way the question is posed!).Unless the mind arrives at silence and quiet,it will move in circles.I have nothing more to add for the moment.
Namaskar.

Nagaraj

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #283 on: May 26, 2012, 10:56:48 AM »
Dear i,

I really appreciate your questioning my discernment. indirectly, you are only helping me further enhance my discernment. I am genuinely grateful to you. :)

"Mind is not different from Self" - is my discernment.

Silence is not silence of words or thoughts. Silence is absolute Clarity - தெளிவு - Undisturbed - absolute absence of agitation, no trace of any doubts that could question the discernment of truth.

Grateful to one and all. all your questions are thoroughly grinding me well as Kabir says.

चलति चक्कि देखकर कबीर् दिया कबीरा रोय​
दुइ पाटन के बीच में साबुत बचा न कोए ॥


Looking at the grinding stones, Kabir laments
In the duel of wheels, nothing stays intact.

Kabir, sees a woman grinding wheat using the grinding stone, and he contemplates himself as the the wheat, being ground, by the heavy stone, without being spared, it is made to crush, forcibly into fine powder, which cannot be segregated eventually. Seeing this, Kabir cries, because of the pain of Samsara,   दिया कबीरा रोय​ in between the sky and the earth दुइ पाटन के बीच, all this takes place, all emotions, such as happiness, sorrow, pleasure, pain, goodness and badness, and so on, all the dualities. The bottom stone is the earth and the sky is the upper grinding stone, and the wheat being us, is being crushed, ie., these dualities is being crushed, it is painful.

All the member's questions are enhancing my conviction on the discernment of truth.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
मनश्चेन्न लग्नं गुरोरंघ्रिपद्मे ततः किं ततः किं ततः किं ततः किम् ।।

Manaschenna lagnam Gurorangri padme, Thatha kim Thathah Kim, Thathah kim Thathah kim

If the mind does not remain at the Lotus feet of Guru, What is the use? What is the use? What is the use!!

Subramanian.R

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #284 on: May 26, 2012, 12:19:09 PM »
Dear Nagaraj and srkudai,

When we say something about Sri Bhagavan's life and teachings, we are saying with our buddhi and not out of experience.
This is where the huge gap lies. When Guru says something, he says with AruL (as I quoted Tayumanavar in some other post
today). We cannot give AruL or pass on Grace since we are ourselves seeking AruL and Grace from guru.  In that sense, we
are all beginners.

Sri Bhagavan said: 'Iru' (Be) to Tinnai Swami. He merely stayed still in Arunachala for two decades and attained liberation on a
Mahadeepam Day.

If I say to someone Iru, (Be), he will stay for some minutes and move away!  (Perhaps he may think I am a fool).
This is where Sri Bhagavan differs from me. 

Sri Bhagavan said yes when Kitty Osborne asked Him to take care of his father (Arthur Osborne). HE DID TAKE CARE.
When Osborne arrived at Tiruvannamalai, Sri Bhagavan said: Kitty, I have given your father safe!

Can I give some assurance (AruL) to a boy whose father is suffering in concentration camp, with no hope of release?

This is where Sri Bhagavan differs from me.       


All of us can attain Sri Bhagavan's state one day or other. But today we have not attained.


Arunachala Siva.