Author Topic: Fundamental question about Mind!  (Read 173186 times)

Ravi.N

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #75 on: May 19, 2012, 07:34:07 AM »
Ramana/Friends,
Yes indeed.This is what Swami Vivekananda says:
1. Each soul is potentially divine. The goal is to manifest this divinity within, by controlling nature, external and internal. Do this either by work, or worship, or psychic control, or philosophy-by one, or more, or all of these-and be free, This is the whole of religion. Doctrines, or dogmas, or rituals, or books, or temples, or forms, are but secondary details.
2. The ultimate goal of all mankind, the aim and end of all religions, is but one-re-union with God, or, what amounts to the same, with the divinity which is every man's true nature. But while the aim is one, the method of attaining may vary with the different temperaments of men. Both the goal and the methods employed for reaching it are called Yoga, a word derived from the same Sanskrit root as the English "yoke", meaning "to join", to Join us to our reality, God. There are various such Yogas, or methods of union-but the chief ones are Karma- Yoga, Bhakti-Yoga, Raja-Yoga, and Jnana-Yoga.
3. As every science has its methods, so has every religion. The methods of attaining the end of religion are called Yoga by us, and the different forms of Yoga that we teach, are adapted to the different natures and temperaments of men. We classify them in the following way, under four heads: Karma-Yoga-The manner in which a man realises his own divinity through works and duty. Bhakti-Yoga--The realisation of the divinity through devotion to, and love of, a Personal God. Raja-Yoga-The realisation of the divinity through the control of mind, Jnana-Yoga-The realisation of a man's own divinity through knowledge. These are all different roads leading to the same centre-God.
4. Each one of our Yogas is fitted to make man perfect even without the help of the others, because they have all the same goal in view. The Yogas of work, of wisdom, and of devotion are all capable of serving as direct and independent means for the attainment of Moksha.
5. Non-attachment is the basis of all the Yogas. The man "who gives up living in houses, wearing fine clothes, and eating good food, and goes into the desert, may be a most attached person. His only possession, his own body, may become everything to him; and as he lives he will be simply struggling for the sake of his body.
6. Vairagya or renunciation is the turning point in all the various Yogas(Nivritti Marga.-Ravi). The Karmi worker renounces the fruits of his work. The Bhakta devotee renounces all little loves for the almighty and omnipresent love. The Yogi renounces his experience's, because his philosophy is that the whole Nature, although it is for the experience of the soul, at last brings him to know that he is not in Nature, but eternally separate from Nature. The jnani philosopher renounces everything, because his philosophy is that Nature never existed, neither in the past, nor present, nor will he in the future.
7. We claim that concentrating the powers of the mind is the only way to knowledge. In external science, concentration of mind is-putting it on something external; and in internal science, it is-drawing towards one's self. We call this concentration of mind.
Yoga. The Yogis claim a good deal. They claim that by concentration of the mind every truth in the universe becomes evident to the mind, both external and internal truth.
8. The Yogis claim that of all the energies that are in the human body the highest is what they call 'Ojas' Now this Ojas is stored up in the brain, and the more Ojas is in a man's head, the more powerful he is, the more intellectual, the more spiritually strong. One man may speak beautiful language and beautiful thought, but they do not impress people; another one speaks neither beautiful language nor beautiful thoughts, yet his words charm. Every movement of his is powerful. That is the power of Ojas.
9. All the forces that are working in the body in their highest become Ojas. You must remember that it is only a question of transformation, The same force which is working outside as electricity or magnetism, will become changed into inner force; the same forces that are working as muscular energy will be changed into Ojas. The Yogis say that that part of the human energy which is expressed as sex energy, in sexual thought, when checked and controlled, easily becomes changed into Ojas, and as the Muladhara guides these, the Yogi pays particular attention to that centre. He tries to take all this sexual energy and convert it into Ojas. It is only the chaste man or woman who can make the Ojas rise and store it in the brain; that is why chastity has always been considered the highest virtue. A man feels that if he is unchaste, spirituality goes away, he loses mental vigour and moral stamina. That is why in all the religious orders in the world which have produced spiritual giants you will always find absolute chastity insisted upon. That is why the monks came into existence, giving-up marriage. There must be perfect chastity in thought, word and deed; without it the practice of Raja-Yoga is dangerous, and may lead to insanity.
10. The utility of this science is to bring out the perfect man, and not let him wait and wait for ages, just a plaything in the hands of the physical world, like a log of drift-wood carried from wave to wave and tossing about in the ocean. This science wants you to be strong, to take the work in your own hand, instead of leaving it in the hands of Nature, and get beyond this little life. That is the great idea.
11. Anything that is secret and mysterious in these systems of Yoga should be at once rejected. The best guide in life is strength. In religion, as in all other matters, discard everything that weakens you, have nothing to do with it. Mystery-mongering weakens the human brain. It has well-nigh destroyed Yoga-one of the greatest of sciences.
12. He is indeed a Yogi who sees himself in the whole universe and the whole universe in himself.
13. This is no child's play, no fad to be tried one day and discarded the next. It is a life's work; and the end to be attained is well worth all that it can cost us to reach it, being nothing less than the realisation of our absolute oneness with the Divine.

Namaskar.

srkudai

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #76 on: May 19, 2012, 08:24:38 AM »
:) When Arjuna said to Krishna "Ill leave this battle field , let me go and take Sanyas", sri krishna did not encourage that!! And he started explaining Vedanta! Arjina did not say "Hey! Why do u tell me all that, let me leave everything!" !

Friends, Leaving books is "Exactly like that". And the people who talk of leaving scriptures make two exceptions:
1. When it comes to worldly activities, they say "Like Janaka we continue"!!! Then like janaka why cant they continue to read ??

2. Ramana's life and works can be read!! Exception , right?

:)

Ravi.N

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #77 on: May 19, 2012, 09:26:21 AM »
uday,

" Ramana's life and works can be read!! Exception , right?"

A 'Ramana Devotee' will say -"Ramana's life and works can be read!! it is an Exception"!

A 'Sai Devotee' will say -"Reading Sai satcharita is an exception"!

A 'Ramakrishna Devotee' will say that -"Reading The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna is an exception"!

A 'Christian Devotee' will say that -"Reading the the Bible is an Exception'!

A devotee(without tags!) will say -"A no bhadrAH kratavo yantu vishvataH | (Rg Veda I-89-1)(Loosely translated as:Let auspicious thoughts come unto us from every direction).


I have found this streak in every asramam,temple or group that I have visited-This 'Staunch Devotee' who considers it as a sine quo non that he is a devotee only if he is 'excusively ' so.Others are just wading their way through the morass !The 'Excusive' nature is construed as 'Eka Nishta to the Ishta'!
Like our friend subramanian posted:"In this Forum which speaks about  Sri Ramana Bhagavan and also His devotees, nivritti marga methods alone should be taken into
account
. No doubt Sri Bhagavan approved Bhakti by saying Bhakti is Jnana Matha, He did not mention in detail about karma"

Eka nishta is not to be excusive but all inclusive-Like unifying all the different strands of fiber in a rope.As Sri Aurobindo says:the Sadhaka of the integral Yoga will not be satisfied until he has included all other names and forms of Deity in his own conception, seen his own Ishta Devata in all others, unified all Avatars in the unity of Him who descends in the Avatar, welded the truth in all teachings into the harmony of the Eternal Wisdom.
     Nor should he forget the aim of these external aids which is to awaken his soul to the Divine within him. Nothing has been finally accomplished if that has not been accomplished.
It is not sufficient to worship Krishna, Christ or Buddha without, if there is not the revealing and the formation of the Buddha, the Christ or Krishna in ourselves. And all other aids equally have no other purpose; each is a bridge between man's unconverted state and the revelation of the Divine within him.


I make it clear that I am not a 'Ramana devotee' or a 'Sai Devotee' or a 'Ramakrishna Devotee' etc
When I wrote to Graham here,I made this point quite clear exactly in these words and left it to him to choose to permit me as a member. :)

P.S:I agree with you that when we can take our breakfast,enjoy idli with chutney,why be fussy about not reading scriptures! :)

Namaskar.



Subramanian.R

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #78 on: May 19, 2012, 10:37:35 AM »

Sri Lakshmana Sarma (WHO) calls teachings of of Sri Bhagavan as Maha Yoga.  Sri Bhagavan Himself once told Lakshmana Sarma:
"The quest is Maha Yoga - the Great Yoga - and the reason is that, as shown  here, (in Lakshmana Sarma's book). all the Yogas are
included in the Quest and this is why it is called Maha Yoga.

Once some years after the publication of the book Maha Yoga, Sri Bhagavan came across a verse in the Kurma Purana (2.11.7) in
which Lord Siva declares, "That (yoga) in which one sees the Self (atman), which is Me, the one immaculate and eternal bliss, is
considered to be the Maha Yoga pertaining to the Supreme Lord." Since this verse thus confirmed His statement that Self enquiry,
the practice of attending to the Self is the Maha Yoga, Sri Bhagavan transcribed it in His own copy of Maha Yoga at the end of chapter 9.

The following are extracts  from a critically minded visitor, who once appeared in the Vedanta Kesari:

The Maharshi impressed me as a rare type of man. I do not know whether he is a Jnani or what he is. For as the Vedanta says, a Jnani
can be known only by a Jnani and I am certainly not one. But this person, anyone can feel, is not of the ordinary run  of men. We nowadays come across men everywhere whose one thought is world reform and things of that kind. But here is a man who is PERFECTLY AWARE, as one can see from his conduct and movements, who has no such idea, who has in his opinion nothing to add to the sum total
of human happiness. He simply seems to exist, without waiting for anything, without being anxious about anything. On watching him I was powerfully reminded of the Gita passage beginning with 'udasinavad...' (like the one that is unconcerned) (Gita 9.9 and Gita 1.23).

He seems to take, as far as I can see, no interest even in the Asramam that has sprung up around him. He simply sits there. thing are going as EVENTS AND OTHER MAN SHAPE THEM. .....

Another point that struck me is his Silence. We used to ask in fun among ourselves why eminent professors who crossed the seas did not deliver their Vedantic lectures through silence. But here is a person who actually does this as far as his teaching  of the Vedanta is concerned. When I asked him to tell me something of spirituality, the first thing he said was that silence is the highest teaching!  The beauty of the man is that he remains faithful to that idea to the utmost extent possible. His idea is that the ADVAITIN HAS NO POSITION
TO STATE, NO SIDDHANTA TO PROPOUND.

So mostly the Maharshi remains silent, and people come, make prostrations, sit before him  for hours and then go away, without exchanging even a single word!  I have my own doubts as to whether people benefit by this teaching through silence, but yet people
come from long distances to hear this dumb eloquence and go back SATISFIED.

Though he speaks but little, it is very instructive to watch his face and eyes. there is nothing very prepossessing about his personalty.
But there is a beam of intelligence and unrufulled calmness in his eyes that are unique. ... I am sufficiently satisfied that the absence of activity in him IS NOT DUE TO INERTNESS.

The third point that struck me was the absolute absence of vanity or self importance in him. ...And when he breaks that silence, as he does when questioned, he appears to be THE SWEETEST AND MOST FRIENDLY OF MEN.

.....

In seeing him, I do believe I have seen a unique personage.

(The author of this Vedanta Kesari article is Swami Tapasyananda.)                 

Arunachala Siva.

Subramanian.R

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #79 on: May 19, 2012, 12:00:47 PM »
Fundamental Questions:

The Sage himself gives us the essence of the teaching of the saints. He tells us that to attribute name and form to the
Reality, thereby adding personality to It and making It into what we call God is quite proper and necessary as a means
of mental purification. But He also says that any name and any form may be so attributed - that it is narrowness to claim
that a particular form is alone holy. And He reconciles this devotion with the foregoing teaching about the Quest and the
Egoless State, by telling us that the goal of the devotee is the same as that of the seeker,

Even in devotion, a certain degree of egolessness is implicit and therefore as a general rule only men of pure mind and good
conduct are drawn to devotion. One's character is proportional to the degree of egolessness.

He that would find Truth must have eschewed wrong doing, subdued his passions and attained mental harmony.

Truth and goodness are essentially the same. The Gita also lays a great stress on his condition. The seeker must have
what it calls the 'godly endowment' in order to reach the goal. This includes fearlessness, clear thinking, meditativeness,
readiness to give, control of mind and body, reverence to whatever is holy, love of truth, straightforwardness, non injury,
forbearance, not telling tales, compassion, freedom from greed, gentleness, shrinking from wrong doing, not being         
capricious. All this is summed up as good character and a person is said to be having purity of mind, only when these
features are seen in him.

The fundamental question about mind is that mind is only thoughts and thoughts are nothing but sprouting of ego.
The egoless state is the sublime mental purity.

Again all the foregoing are the aroma of the Self that dwells in our hearts. Therefore they make for impersonality.
To them belong the persons, not they to the persons for Goodness is not a possession, it is the Possessor.

Ultimately devotion and vichara are one and the same.

Arunachala Siva.   

Hari

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #80 on: May 19, 2012, 12:01:11 PM »
Raviji has said:
Quote
The Pure Mind is the same as the Pure Atman.

That's what Lord Ramana has said:

8. What is pure mind and what is impure mind?

When the indefinable power of Brahman separates itself from Brahman and, in union with the reflection of consciousness (chidabhasa) assumes various forms, it is called the impure mind. When it becomes free from the reflection of consciousness (abhasa), through discrimination, it is called the pure mind. Its state of union with the Brahman is its apprehension of Brahman. The energy which is accompanied by the reflection of consciousness is called the impure mind and its state of separation from Brahman is its non-apprehension of Brahman.


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Subramanian.R

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #81 on: May 19, 2012, 12:11:17 PM »
Dear ramana,

This is what Sri Bhagavan describes in Verse 24 of Upadesa Undiyar:

In the nature of their being creature and creator
Are in substance one
They differ only
In adjuncts and awareness.

Arunachala Siva.

Hari

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #82 on: May 19, 2012, 12:14:30 PM »
Sri Subramanian, I have a question for you....and for all others of course.

You say that Self-inquiry is the summum bonum of all spiritual practices. So I ask you: What was the core teaching of Lord Ramana? If you should describe it with one sentence what it would be? Most people who have only heard about Ramana will of course say "Self-inquiry". But you as deep knower of His teaching what would you say?
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Subramanian.R

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #83 on: May 19, 2012, 12:21:53 PM »
Dear ramana,

The core teaching is:

Summa Iru. Be silent and know that kingdom of god is within you.

Just because we are not able to remain summa, we are 'doing' all these things including writing posts in Forum.
'Doing' is not summa iruthal. 'Being' is summa iruthal.

I have seen people in Old Hall remaining in stone like posture for more than 2 hours.  In my case, I am still not able
to remain in that posture for more than 45 minutes. I feel like scratching my head, moving my back, back and forth,
shifting legs, seeing the watch, seeing others, seeing Sri Bhagavan's portrait.

I am not able to remain Summa for two hours. If I am able to do that, that is the finality.

Arunachala Siva.   

Arunachala Siva. 
 

Hari

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #84 on: May 19, 2012, 12:35:50 PM »
Exactly! That's why He so often has repeated God's revelation through Saint David "Be still and know that I am God". This is Biblical way to say Summa iru. But what that means? Simply to be as you are, e.g. ego is vanished and your nature shines forth. You say that Self-inquiry is the most important spiritual practice which is above all others. Then I ask what is the use of Self-inquiry to a bhakta whose ego has been vanished by complete Surrender? When the ego is gone who is the one who to do Self-inquiry? In my opinion to say that one method is above others is not essentially correct. I think that Saranagathi is the most beneficial to people of the Kali Yuga. And this is it not because Self-inquiry is inferior but because mind condition of the people right now is more prone to bhakti marga. So to say that some sadhana in general is more or less than other without consideration of the time, people, culture and so on is not very correct also.
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Nagaraj

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #85 on: May 19, 2012, 01:04:22 PM »
Dear i,

Is Sharanagati (Surrender) different from Self Enquiry? There is no difference between them. Surrender does not happen by just saying, i surrender. It is again only jnana that results in Sharanagati. Who has to surrender? again, the answer is 'i' without first primarily knowing oneself, who can surrender? who am i? there is no difference in all these!

Bhagavan says, the entire vedanta can be summed up with the smallest English letter 'i' one may call it Bhakti, one may call it Surender, one may call it Self enquiry, one may call it what ever, it is all related to this 'i' alone. it is all the same!



And, Being still, does not necessarily mean to sit like a stone for hours together. Ulladu Naarpadu Anubandham 27 says, after realising this truth, play, in the world as you like.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
मनश्चेन्न लग्नं गुरोरंघ्रिपद्मे ततः किं ततः किं ततः किं ततः किम् ।।

Manaschenna lagnam Gurorangri padme, Thatha kim Thathah Kim, Thathah kim Thathah kim

If the mind does not remain at the Lotus feet of Guru, What is the use? What is the use? What is the use!!

Subramanian.R

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #86 on: May 19, 2012, 01:13:42 PM »
Dear ramana,

This Silence is the silence of the immortals;  Silence comprises three things:  kAyika mounam - silence of the body;
vang-mounam - silence of the mouth, i.e without speaking anything; and finally, sankalpa-rahita mounam - silence
without thoughts. If these three could be achieved it will be the pinnacle of attainment.

Once Mastan Swami came to Sri Bhagavan. Sri Bhagavan was sitting on the stone bench inside Virupaksha Cave.
Mastan came and folded his hands and then stood. He stood and stood and stood for seven hours, without urge
to take water, or to eat any thing or even to attend to nature's call or even to shift his legs. He stood motionless.
Sri Bhagavan was also sitting still like a stone statue for six hours, with a vacant gaze, without even batting His
eyelids.

In such glorious time of silence, the transmission of grace takes place.

Sri Bhagavan used to say: Grace is ever flowing. But you (i.e. the ego) do not come in the way!

****

Regarding Saranagati, it appears easier but it is equally difficult. One can attain total surrender only by submitting the ego.
One cannot keep even a bit of ego and say, that he has surrendered.  Total annihilation of ego denotes total self surrender.
Of course, this comes by practice, if one finds self inquiry difficult.

In Self inquiry, ego is killed first and foremost.

In self surrender, the ego's death takes place as final submission in the altar of the Self.

Arunachala Siva.         

Hari

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #87 on: May 19, 2012, 01:18:32 PM »
Quote
Dear i,

Is Sharanagati (Surrender) different from Self Enquiry? There is no difference between them. Surrender does not happen by just saying, i surrender. It is again only jnana that results in Sharanagati. Who has to surrender? again, the answer is 'i' without first primarily knowing oneself, who can surrender? who am i? there is no difference in all these!

Bhagavan says, the entire vedanta can be summed up with the smallest English letter 'i' one may call it Bhakti, one may call it Surender, one may call it Self enquiry, one may call it what ever, it is all related to this 'i' alone. it is all the same!


And, Being still, does not necessarily mean to sit like a stone for hours together. Ulladu Naarpadu Anubandham 27 says, after realising this truth, play, in the world as you like.

Prostrations to Bhagavan

This is exactly what I am trying to say, Sri Nagaraj. You and people here are very open-minded and have very keen viveka but I have seen many Bhagavan's devotees who has made Self-inquiry as the "Christ-only salvation". Actually karma yoga, bhakti yoga, jnana yoga, raja yoga are the same. Truely I cannot see difference between them and have questioned myself "Where do people see the distinction between them? Distinctions appear when you have been caught in doctines, illusions and narrow-mindedness (e.g. extreme egocentrism).
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Subramanian.R

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #88 on: May 19, 2012, 01:20:14 PM »
Dear Nagaraj,

Ulladu Narpadu anubandam says - After realization, play in the world like a hero.  But even that, how?   

SEEMING TO HAVE ENTHUSIASM AND DELIGHT, SEEMING TO HAVE EXCITEMENT AND AVERSION, SEEMING TO TO EXERCISE
INITIATIVE AND PERSEVERANCE, AND YET WITHOUT ATTACHMENT, play O hero, in the world.

Released from all bonds of attachment, and with equanimity of mind, acting outwardly in all situations, in accordance
with the part you have assumed, play as you please, O hero, in the world. (This is from Yoga Vasishtam - originally)

TILL THAT REALIZATION ONE SHOULD SIT LIKE STONE ONLY AT LEAST DURING MEDITATION.

There is no other go.

Arunachala Siva.     

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #89 on: May 19, 2012, 01:22:17 PM »
Dear ramana,

All Yogas merge into Maha Yoga. One Whole Yoga.  Which Sri Bhagavan taught.

Arunachala Siva.