Author Topic: Fundamental question about Mind!  (Read 173196 times)

Hari

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #90 on: May 19, 2012, 01:23:04 PM »
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Regarding Saranagati, it appears easier but it is equally difficult. One can attain total surrender only by submitting the ego.
One cannot keep even a bit of ego and say, that he has surrendered.  Total annihilation of ego denotes total self surrender.
Of course, this comes by practice, if one finds self inquiry difficult.

Oh, I don't say that it is easier! :) I just say that people now, in Kali Yuga, are more prone to Saranagathi and they start doing Self-inquiry just because it is said that it is easier way to Atma jnana, then I think that their "spiritual progress" will be less. Let everyone do whatever he/she is inclined to. This is best for this person.
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Hari

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #91 on: May 19, 2012, 01:25:20 PM »
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Dear ramana,

All Yogas merge into Maha Yoga. One Whole Yoga.  Which Sri Bhagavan taught.

Arunachala Siva.

Yes, yes. My point was that this Maha Yoga is not Self-inquiry, Self-surrender or whatever other method you mention. Maha Yoga means "Supreme Union", e.g. being one's own Self.
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Nagaraj

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #92 on: May 19, 2012, 01:25:27 PM »
Dear i,

it is not so, one need not sit like a stone until one attains "That" aren't you identifying with your body subtly here? does the body need to enquire or yoursef? and, moreover, what about those who are engrossed in particular stations of life, to one lady, who expressed that she is so bogged by duties that she does not get to sit fir meditation, Bhagavan said, give your body to the world and give your mind to me.

Even as one converses with anybody, enquiry goes on, even as one talks, works, moves, drives, what ever, enquiry goes on. If one is able to sit like that, well and good, if ones station provides that time, good, otherwise, what does one do? can one postpone till a future time, so that he plans to sit like a stone and discover the reality? it is not so. The true import ought to be discerned.

Prosrations to Bhagavan
मनश्चेन्न लग्नं गुरोरंघ्रिपद्मे ततः किं ततः किं ततः किं ततः किम् ।।

Manaschenna lagnam Gurorangri padme, Thatha kim Thathah Kim, Thathah kim Thathah kim

If the mind does not remain at the Lotus feet of Guru, What is the use? What is the use? What is the use!!

Hari

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #93 on: May 19, 2012, 01:29:13 PM »
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Dear i,

it is not so, one need not sit like a stone until one attains "That" aren't you identifying with your body subtly here? does the body need to enquire or yoursef? and, moreover, what about those who are engrossed in particular stations of life, to one lady, who expressed that she is so bogged by duties that she does not get to sit fir meditation, Bhagavan said, give your body to the world and give your mind to me.

Even as one converses with anybody, enquiry goes on, even as one talks, works, moves, drives, what ever, enquiry goes on. If one is able to sit like that, well and good, if ones station provides that time, good, otherwise, what does one do? can one postpone till a future time, so that he plans to sit like a stone and discover the reality? it is not so. The true import ought to be discerned.

Prosrations to Bhagavan

I agree to the dot! We cannot escape action if it is part of our path. So called motionless yogis are like that because this is part of their path!
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Subramanian.R

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #94 on: May 19, 2012, 02:08:06 PM »
Dear Nagaraj,

Sitting like stone is not an insentient posture. It is total silence without any movement of body, tongue and even sankalpas.
Sri Bhagavan asks us to do meditation like that only. Not 24 X 7. In the modern world, particularly for working men and women,
one cannot sit like that. But at least during hours or minutes of meditation, one can do that. You are talking about  subtle body
awareness.  There is no body awareness at all at such times.

Once some devotee asked Sri Bhagavan: Should I sit quiet when a mosquito bites me during meditation?

Sri Bhagavan replied: Just because you swat the mosquito, you will not go to hell. Just also because you do not
swat the mosquito, you will not go to heaven. The best meditation is that where you are not even aware of the
mosquito bite!

Arunachala Siva.     

Subramanian.R

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #95 on: May 19, 2012, 02:14:59 PM »
Dear ramana,

Maha Yoga is not merely union with Mahat (Brahman). It is a complete whole yoga where all the four yogas merge.
It is the Whole Yoga. It is not integration of four yogas, in a deliberate attempt. No.  Like when a king goes on procession,
the horses, foot soldiers, commanders and ministers follow the king, when one does self inquiry or self surrender,
the other yogas follow automatically.

Again if you say, action is our path and sitting motionless is the path of Jnanis, then, the kings like Janaka who were full
of activity could not have become jnanis. They attained realization and then they become active in their royal life.
Like what is stated in Ulladu Narpadu anubandam verse which Nagaraj quoted today.

Arunachala Siva.   

Nagaraj

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #96 on: May 19, 2012, 03:41:52 PM »
Dear Nagaraj,

Sitting like stone is not an insentient posture. It is total silence without any movement of body, tongue and even sankalpas.
Sri Bhagavan asks us to do meditation like that only. Not 24 X 7. In the modern world, particularly for working men and women,
one cannot sit like that. But at least during hours or minutes of meditation, one can do that. You are talking about  subtle body
awareness.  There is no body awareness at all at such times.

Once some devotee asked Sri Bhagavan: Should I sit quiet when a mosquito bites me during meditation?

Sri Bhagavan replied: Just because you swat the mosquito, you will not go to hell. Just also because you do not
swat the mosquito, you will not go to heaven. The best meditation is that where you are not even aware of the
mosquito bite!

Arunachala Siva.     

Dear i,

this is what i intended to convey!

generally, even, when one sits to meditation, there are certain common distractions, when there is some itching sensation, or an urge to move the limbs a little bit, etc... any such subtle uges, one should not take it as impediment, and instead of sending plea to Bhagavn, such as "oh Bhagavan, how much body consciousness, i am suffering, i am unable to even sit motionless, etc, one may as well, satisfy the urges and settle down then and there and focus on the true meditation.

We must realise that we are unique, we do not need to imitate anybody else who may be adept in something. Yoga, is said to be skill in action, mindfulness, pure wisdom, pure nectar of discernment.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
मनश्चेन्न लग्नं गुरोरंघ्रिपद्मे ततः किं ततः किं ततः किं ततः किम् ।।

Manaschenna lagnam Gurorangri padme, Thatha kim Thathah Kim, Thathah kim Thathah kim

If the mind does not remain at the Lotus feet of Guru, What is the use? What is the use? What is the use!!

Subramanian.R

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #97 on: May 19, 2012, 04:05:08 PM »
Dear Nagaraj,

Yes. This clarification I agree to.

Arunachala Siva.

Ravi.N

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #98 on: May 19, 2012, 04:09:44 PM »
Friends,
An excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
A DEVOTEE: "Sir, a new sect, named, 'Nava Hullol', has been started. Lalit Chatterji is
one of the members."
MASTER: "There are different views. All these views are but so many paths to reach the
same goal. But everyone believes that his view alone is right, that his watch alone keeps
correct time.
"
GIRISH (to M.): "Do you remember what Pope says about it?
'Tis with our judgments as our watches, none
Go just alike, yet each believes his own."
MASTER (to M.): "What does it mean?"
M: "Every one thinks that his own watch keeps the correct time. But different watches do
not give the same time."
MASTER: "But however wrong the watches may be, the Sun never makes a mistake. One
should check one's watch with the sun
."

Every 'Staunch' follower is convinced that 'his guru' is supreme and the 'method' taught by him is ultimate!This gives a sense of identity and security. :)
Namaskar.

Nagaraj

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #99 on: May 19, 2012, 04:15:21 PM »
Dear i,

:D nice excerpt from the gospel of Sri Ramakrishna

but, in a way, its required, it is good, so long, one has fears that He may deviate from his true path, holding on to His Guru is very essential indeed.

Like the birds, it remains with its chicks until, they learn to fly and is able to hunt food, and so on, once it is independent, they all go their ways.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
मनश्चेन्न लग्नं गुरोरंघ्रिपद्मे ततः किं ततः किं ततः किं ततः किम् ।।

Manaschenna lagnam Gurorangri padme, Thatha kim Thathah Kim, Thathah kim Thathah kim

If the mind does not remain at the Lotus feet of Guru, What is the use? What is the use? What is the use!!

Ravi.N

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #100 on: May 19, 2012, 04:43:57 PM »
Nagaraj,
Yes.Here is another excerpt from the Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
God with and without form
MASTER: "Well, do you believe in God with form or without form?"
M., rather surprised, said to himself: "How can one believe in God without form when one
believes in God with form? And if one believes in God without form, how can one believe
that God has a form? Can these two contradictory ideas be true at the same time? Can a
white liquid like milk be black?"
M: "Sir, I like to think of God as formless."
MASTER: "Very good. It is enough to have faith in either aspect. You believe in God
without form; that is quite all right. But never for a moment think that this alone is true and
all else false
. Remember that God with form is just as true as God without form. But hold
fast to your own conviction
."
The assertion that both are equally true amazed M.; he had never learnt this from his books.
Thus his ego received a third blow; but since it was not yet completely crushed, he came
forward to argue with the Master a little more.
God and the clay image
M: "Sir, suppose one believes in God with form. Certainly He is not the clay image!"
MASTER (interrupting): "But why clay? It is an image of Spirit."
M. could not quite understand the significance of this "image of Spirit". "But, sir," he said
to the Master, "one should explain to those who worship the clay image that it is not God,
and that, while worshipping it, they should have God in view and not the clay image. One
should not worship clay."
God the only real teacher
MASTER (sharply): "That's the one hobby of you Calcutta people - giving lectures and
bringing others to the light! Nobody ever stops to consider how to get the light himself.
Who are you to teach others
?
"He who is the Lord of the Universe will teach everyone. He alone teaches us, who has
created this universe; who has made the sun and moon, men and beasts, and all other
beings; who has provided means for their sustenance; who has given children parents and
endowed them with love to bring them up. The Lord has done so many things - will He not
show people the way to worship Him? If they need teaching, then He will be the Teacher.
He is our Inner Guide.
"Suppose there is an error in worshipping the clay image; doesn't God know that through it
He alone is being invoked? He will he pleased with that very worship. Why should you get
a headache over it? You had better try for knowledge and devotion yourself
."
This time M. felt that his ego was completely crushed. He now said to himself: "Yes, he has
spoken the truth. What need is there for me to teach others? Have I known God? Do I really
love Him? 'I haven't room enough for myself in my bed, and I am inviting my friend to
share it with me!' I know nothing about God, yet I am trying to teach others. What a shame!
How foolish I am! This is not mathematics or history or literature, that one can teach it to
others. No, this is the deep mystery of God. What he says appeals to me."
This was M.'s first argument with the Master, and happily his last.
MASTER: "You were talking of worshipping the clay image. Even if the image is made of
clay, there is need for that sort of worship. God Himself has provided different forms of
worship. He who is the Lord of the Universe has arranged all these forms to suit different
men in different stages of knowledge
.
"The mother cooks different dishes to suit the stomachs of her different children. Suppose
she has five children. If there is a fish to cook, she prepares various dishes from it - pilau,
pickled fish, fried fish, and so on - to suit their different tastes and powers of digestion.
"Do you understand me
?"

We can clearly see how the Master aims to balance both the aspects-Keeping the mind open and yet standing firm on one's conviction.
He further emphasizes that if one is sincere and diligent,God himself will lead such a one to himself.
Namaskar.

Hari

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #101 on: May 19, 2012, 04:44:35 PM »
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Towards the end of his life on Earth,when Sri Ramakrishna was suffering from throat cancer and could hardly take even liquid food,Pundit Shashadhar one day suggested to the Master that the latter could remove the illness by concentrating his mind on the throat, the scriptures having declared that yogis had power
to cure themselves in that way. The Master rebuked the pundit. "For a scholar like you to make such a proposal!" he said. "How can I withdraw the mind from the Lotus Feet of God and turn it to this worthless cage of flesh and blood?" "For our sake at least", begged Narendra and the other disciples. "But", replied Sri Ramakrishna, "do you think I enjoy this suffering? I wish to recover, but that depends on the Mother."
NARENDRA: "Then please pray to Her. She must listen to you."
MASTER: "But I cannot pray for my body."
NARENDRA: "You must do it, for our sake at least."
MASTER: "Very well, I shall try."
A few hours later the Master said to Narendra: "I said to Her: 'Mother, I cannot swallow food because of my pain. Make it possible for me to eat a little.' She pointed you all out to me and said: 'What? You are eating enough through all these mouths. Isn't that so?' I was
ashamed and could not utter another word." This dashed all the hopes of the devotees for the Master's recovery.

Elsewhere in The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna,we find this:
Master could not ask God to cure him
MASTER: "I cannot ask God to cure my disease. The attitude of the servant-master
relationship is nowadays less strong in me.
Once in a while, I say, 'O Mother, please mend the sheath of the sword a little.' But such
prayers are also becoming less frequent. Nowadays I do not find my 'I'; I see that it is God
alone who resides in this sheath."
The goswami had been invited to sing kirtan. A devotee asked, "Will there be any kirtan?"
Sri Ramakrishna was ill, and all were afraid that the kirtan might throw his mind into
ecstasy and thus aggravate the illness.
Sri Ramakrishna said: "Let there be a little singing. All are afraid of my going into ecstasy.
Spiritual emotion hurts the throat."
The goswami began the kirtan. Sri Ramakrishna could not control himself.
He stood up and began to dance with the devotees. The physician watched the whole scene.
A hired carriage was waiting for Dr. Rakhal. He and M. were ready to leave for Calcutta.
They saluted the Master. Sri Ramakrishna said to M. affectionately, "Have you had your
meal?"
Thursday, September 24, 1885
It was the night of the full moon. Sri Ramakrishna was sitting on the small couch. He was
very ill. M. and some other devotees were sitting on the floor.
MASTER (to M.): "Every now and then I think that the body is a mere pillow-case. The
only real substance is the Indivisible Satchidananda.
"When I go into divine ecstasy this illness of the throat remains away from me. I am now
somewhat in that mood and so I feel like laughing."

Sri Ravi, while reading this I remembered an American musician and singer John Larking known as Scatman John. At the end of his life he was ill of lung cancer. Even thoug he supposed what will happen to him he has said: “Whatever God wants is fine by me… I’ve had the very best life. I have tasted beauty.” If a man says that only because he has a beautiful life what we can say about a Jnani Who has realized the Self.
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Ravi.N

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #102 on: May 19, 2012, 05:36:36 PM »
Subramanian/friends,
"Maha Yoga is not merely union with Mahat (Brahman). It is a complete whole yoga where all the four yogas merge.
It is the Whole Yoga. It is not integration of four yogas, in a deliberate attempt."

The word integral is used to mean 'poorna'-Whole;Integral comes from 'Integer' and is the opposite of 'Fractional'.Integral means that which is not pieced or stitched together ,but that which is 'Whole'.Integral Yoga means 'poorna yoga', thus means that which is complete and wholesome.
When we sit for a meal,the hands lift the morsel and flawlessly deposit it into the Mouth that opens just enough to get it in and the Teeth grind the food while the tongue tastes it and mixes it with saliva and the food is swallowed and proceeds to the stomach and gets digested there.All these happen in a coordinated manner and without any disconnect;Likewise all the faculties of ours are employed in an integral way for Sadhana and the spiritual food gets eaten and assimilated.

Namaskar.

Subramanian.R

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #103 on: May 19, 2012, 05:42:23 PM »

Dear Ravi,

In the sense that Integral Yoga is Poorna Yoga is a fine interpretation.

The outward looking mind creates names and forms.
The inward turned mind makes one realize the poornam.

This Poornam is final goal of bhakti, karma, yoga and jnana.

vibhakti nasam bhakti
viyoga nasam yogam
kartrutva nasam karmam
avidya nasam bodham

avidya is only the little I.

Arunachala Siva. 

Ravi.N

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #104 on: May 19, 2012, 05:52:53 PM »
Subramanian/Friends,
"The outward looking mind creates names and forms.The inward turned mind makes one realize the poornam."

The Integral Yoga of Sri Aurobindo breaks this seeming Divide between 'inward' and 'Outward'-and says -'All Life is Yoga'.
It proceeds and expands along this saying of Swami Vivekananda:
I have been asked to say something about the practical position of the Vedanta philosophy. As I have told you, theory is very good indeed, but how are we to carry it into practice? If it be absolutely impracticable, no theory is of any value whatever, except as intellectual gymnastics. The Vedanta, therefore, as a religion must be intensely practical. We must be able to carry it out in every part of our lives. And not only this, the fictitious differentiation between religion and the life of the world must vanish, for the Vedanta teaches oneness — one life throughout. The ideals of religion must cover the whole field of life, they must enter into all our thoughts, and more and more into practice.

Practical Vedanta-Swami Vivekananda,Delivered in London, 10th November 1896.


Namaskar.