Fundamental question about Mind!

[Hari]

The mind is everything. The mind is ours. Then why we say that we cannot change anything? If part of man's karma is to prick his little finger and mind is so powerful then why this man cannot change this little thing like pricking his little finger? Is really the mind so helpless?

[prasanth_ramana_maharshi]

In Gita,Arjuna accepts that it is easy to control wind but not easy to control the mind.

[sanjaya_ganesh]

Mind is like small kids - a big attention seeker. Does lot of things to seek your attention. If you give attention, it becomes cranky more and more and shows off more to seek more attention. If you dont pay attention when it becomes cranky, it does it once, twice, thrice and then it stops - as there is none to encourage it.

-Sanjay

[Hari]

In Gita,Arjuna accepts that it is easy to control wind but not easy to control the mind.

But what about people who can control their minds?

[prasanth_ramana_maharshi]

yes that is the reason in the next sloka lord krishna says though it is difficult to control mind it is not possible by constant practice and detachment.

[Nagaraj]

D.: How to control the mind?
M.: What is mind? Whose is the mind?
D.: Mind always wanders. I cannot control it.
M.: It is the nature of the mind to wander. You are not the mind. The mind springs up and sinks down. It is impermanent, transitory, whereas you are eternal. There is nothing but the Self. To inhere in the Self is the thing. Never mind the mind. If its source is sought, it will vanish leaving the Self unaffected.

D.: So one need not seek to control the mind?
M.: There is no mind to control if you realise the Self. The mind vanishing, the Self shines forth. In the realised man the mind may be active or inactive, the Self alone remains for him. For the mind, the body and the world are not separate from the Self. They rise from and sink into the Self. They do not remain apart from the Self. Can they be different from the Self? Only be aware of the Self. Why worry about these shadows? How do they affect the Self?


Dear i, therefore, all our attention and focus ought not to be made towards controlling the mind, but instead, turn it within, seeking the source of that which has emerged and which puts forth these questions, how to control mind, etc...

The mind can never be controlled, to control the mind would be like controlling the traffic in the chaotic roads, never really possible, even if we do control, it would  only be temporary, but, the best direct way, is as what is revealed by Bhagavan. A little effort is necessary, attention, constant awareness of the truth, is what is required.

Let the thoughts that come out, wander and move about as vapor, what matters? Let these thoughts move about like traffic, vehicles, in the road before us, being disinterested in those movements, Never Minding it all, looking within, the source of the 'i' thought and thereafter, looking ever further within the source of the first 'i' thought is the way as revealed by Bhagavan.

The goals is never to control the mind, however, one can use preliminaries like Pranayama if the mind is very turbulent, in Ramana Gita Bhagavan says, Inhalation, Exhalation, Retention in the ratio of 1:1:4 helps, or carefully observing the breath rhythm also helps to quieten the mind, so that you can enquire the source.

The goal is always to abide as Self. The more we abide as Self, that long the mind is peaceful - that means, mind itself, at its absolute peace is itself Self. There is nothing like mind apart from Self. Forgefulness of Self is only Mind. Therefore, remember, constant awareness, abidance as Self itself, is annihilation of Mind.

Salutations to Bhagavan

[Hari]

I agree. But just bear in mind that not all people are the same. Some of them have very bad "constructed" mind. So controlling it is very important! Even more - for sadhaka controlling the mind very often is of extreme importance. Imagine that your mind is prone to make you live this way - to drink alcohol, to waste your money for drugs, to have sex with whoever you get, you eat almost meat and so on. I cannot agree that this is OK and this person just must watch his thoughts and say "that's just thoughts, I will watch them but I will do whatever I am inclined to". So not controlling the mind is just another extremity and my observation is that extremities almost never are good for people.

I understand and agree what you say, Sri Nagarajji but you say this from your point of you. I suppose that you live a moderate lifestyle but I think you will agree that there are many people who live destructive life and I am sure you can give many examples from people around you.

[Hari]

Mind is like small kids - a big attention seeker. Does lot of things to seek your attention. If you give attention, it becomes cranky more and more and shows off more to seek more attention. If you dont pay attention when it becomes cranky, it does it once, twice, thrice and then it stops - as there is none to encourage it.

Yes, dear sanjaya. Mind is like a kid. But there are good kind and there are bad kids. The bad kids need "reeducation". Don't you agree?

[sanjaya_ganesh]

Yes, dear sanjaya. Mind is like a kid. But there are good kind and there are bad kids. The bad kids need "reeducation". Don't you agree?

One can provide an environment for that kid to grow up right, provide right education, but we cannot learn for the kid - it has to learn itself. If all goes well, then chances are crankiness is less - but even then there may many occassions when we have to ignore. It will cry hoarse, make all kinds of noises and employ all techniques - just sit quiet - as if you dont hear any of those. Exactly like how one deals with kids. It will stop eventually. As long as the "kid stays with you" - you have to do it.

[Hari]

One can provide an environment for that kid to grow up right, provide right education, but we cannot learn for the kid - it has to learn itself. If all goes well, then chances are crankiness is less - but even then there may many occassions when we have to ignore. It will cry hoarse, make all kinds of noises and employ all techniques - just sit quiet - as if you dont hear any of those. Exactly like how one deals with kids. It will stop eventually. As long as the "kid stays with you" - you have to do it.

The methods for "reeducation" are countless. Each mind is different. There is no universalism in anything. As Bhagavan Sri Ramakrishna has said:

Knowing that all paths lead to the same Truth, we should not despise other Deities, but maintain an attitude of respect towards other religions. The Lord has provided different forms of worship to suit different men with different capacities and with different stages of spiritual development. As God has many aspects, so God is described according to the particular aspect in which He appears to his particular worshipper.

So it is the same with the mind. We cannot say "do this and you will get that". There is no such thing in spirituality and in anything. So we cannot say "we must change environment" or "change this or that". That's why Guru is of crucial importance. He is Who know the mind of His children and know what is best for every of them.

[Nagaraj]

Dear i,

any knowledge is just a general light, as revealed and experienced by each one. one has to be prudent enough to improvise according to ones own situation, as it may be, exercise wisdom accordingly.

For ultimately, Wisdom lays within, what is external is only a pointer to ones within.

Prostrations to Bhagavan

[Nagaraj]

Dear i,

i would like to share with you, one important discernment, WRT your query about drunkards and other who are addicted with certain things, that, such knowledge would not be useful for them etc. i am just observing, in you, a great feeling for others, and you generally speak for everybody when you engage here in contemplative exchanges with everyone. But, such a feeling of thinking for others is actually distraction for ones own sadhana. Let me further bring more clarity here -

You have observed very rightly as follows -

I agree. But just bear in mind that not all people are the same. Some of them have very bad "constructed" mind. So controlling it is very important! Even more - for sadhaka controlling the mind very often is of extreme importance. Imagine that your mind is prone to make you live this way - to drink alcohol, to waste your money for drugs, to have sex with whoever you get, you eat almost meat and so on. I cannot agree that this is OK and this person just must watch his thoughts and say "that's just thoughts, I will watch them but I will do whatever I am inclined to". So not controlling the mind is just another extremity and my observation is that extremities almost never are good for people.

I understand and agree what you say, Sri Nagarajji but you say this from your point of you. I suppose that you live a moderate lifestyle but I think you will agree that there are many people who live destructive life and I am sure you can give many examples from people around you.

Here, i would share with you this following talks with Bhagavan:

Talk 124.

Another impatient questioner elaborated long premises and finished asking why some children die a premature death. He required the answer not to satisfy the grown-up ones who look on, but the babies who are the victims.
M.: Let the victims ask. Why do you ask and desire the answer from the standpoint of the child?


So, therefore, Dear i, its good, if we focus on ourselves, and as and when such a person comes with his set of problems Bhagavan would give such a person, the requisite instruction suiting his own situation, as that may properly suit him.

Its is wise therefore, each one talk for oneself alone, and not about others, for we are here for our own self, for our own spiritual upliftment, and we all would never shy to help others that may present before us.

i hope you got what i an trying to convey. this was not intended for a debate, just to bring across, yet another, discernment, which all may distract us in our sadhana, in very subtle ways, which we may no get to notice usually. Instead of doing Self Enquiry, we may tend to do Self Enquiry for others, which is distraction ultimately.

The mind, if it does not do Self Enquiry, Bhagavan says, would begin to do "ulaga Vichara" world vichara, what may be good for others etc...

Bhagavan says Your own self-realization is the greatest service you can render the world

hope you see in right light what i am trying to subtly point out.

Prostrations to Bhagavan

[Subramanian.R]

Dear all,

Sri Bhagavan gives many definitions for the Mind:

1. He says it is a wondrous power in Atma Swarupam!  So the Mind is also part of Atma Swarupam.

2. He says Mind  is only thoughts. See Versed 18 of Upadesa Undiyar. So control of thoughts is only control of mind.
For this He says again in Who am I?: Instead of multifarious thoughts, try to hold on to one thought so that the other
thoughts would be warded off. Japa is only for this purpose.

3. There is no such thing as mind when sought. See Verse 17 of Upadesa Undiyar. When you search for the mind and seek
after it, the so called mind quells in the Self, its birth place. In the Verse, the word 'usAva' means searching, seek after.

Arunachala Siva.   

[Hari]

So, therefore, Dear i, its good, if we focus on ourselves, and as and when such a person comes with his set of problems Bhagavan would give such a person, the requisite instruction suiting his own situation, as that may properly suit him.

Its is wise therefore, each one talk for oneself alone, and not about others, for we are here for our own self, for our own spiritual upliftment, and we all would never shy to help others that may present before us.

i hope you got what i an trying to convey. this was not intended for a debate, just to bring across, yet another, discernment, which all may distract us in our sadhana, in very subtle ways, which we may no get to notice usually. Instead of doing Self Enquiry, we may tend to do Self Enquiry for others, which is distraction ultimately.

The mind, if it does not do Self Enquiry, Bhagavan says, would begin to do "ulaga Vichara" world vichara, what may be good for others etc...

Bhagavan says Your own self-realization is the greatest service you can render the world

hope you see in right light what i am trying to subtly point out.

Yes, dear Nagaraj. I completely understand what are you trying to convey. But it is difficult for me to ignore people. I cannot ignore their suffering and self-destruction. But OK, let for a moment ignore the "other people". Let examine ourselves. We too have habit and qualities who are hindrance to our sadhana. So controlling of the mind is not necessity only for drunkards or gluttons. We need control the mind in many situations. Mind control is very necessary to have a normal life to everyone, not only to spiritual seekers. Don't you agree?

[Hari]

1. He says it is a wondrous power in Atma Swarupam!  So the Mind is also part of Atma Swarupam.

2. He says Mind  is only thoughts. See Versed 18 of Upadesa Undiyar. So control of thoughts is only control of mind.
For this He says again in Who am I?: Instead of multifarious thoughts, try to hold on to one thought so that the other
thoughts would be warded off. Japa is only for this purpose.

3. There is no such thing as mind when sought. See Verse 17 of Upadesa Undiyar. When you search for the mind and seek
after it, the so called mind quells in the Self, its birth place. In the Verse, the word 'usAva' means searching, seek after

.

Yes. He also has said that mind is the source of the body, body of the senses, senses of the world. I don't remember Bhagavan didn't said that control of the mind is not necessary. Yes, He recommended to find out the source of the mind but He never has discouraged its control.