Author Topic: Fundamental question about Mind!  (Read 171639 times)

Hari

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #30 on: May 17, 2012, 07:50:25 PM »
You marked very important thing about mind, Sri Udai! The mind is just a word with many meanings in philosophy of India. For Yoga and Hinduism mind is composed of Buddhi, Ahamkara and so on. For Buddhist mind is everything - thoughts, intuitions, memory, personality and so on. So yes, what you say is very, very important. It is Buddhi which is the center of mind control! That's why Sages always say "Be awaike!", that's what Buddhi means! So what you say is very fundamental - Manas controls Buddhi or Buddhi controls manas!
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Hari

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #31 on: May 17, 2012, 08:02:35 PM »
Quote
Dear i,

my apologies for being harsh. it was needless on my part. that was not the right way to put across my views, and i regret it, i could have been sweeter, better!

cheers.

Don't worry, Sri Nagaraj. All is forgotten. I just wanna clear up this statement of yours:

Quote
I differ fundamentally, the way i see is like this - it is we who have to become convergent not the Guru. We have to bend our knees and surrender to Him, not make Him convergent to us. Practicality is not a reason to avoid finding the source, we cant bend the truth for our convenience rather we ought to bend and reach his Lotus feet.

This is not what I say. I just meant exactly this but what I had in mind is even more. We must to unite things (converge), not to divide them (diverge). We must not divide Gurus and teachers - that's what religious people do and we are witness of the consequences. We must do and realize what Sri Ramakrishna did - all paths lead to one Goal and all Sages point to the same truth expressed in different way. So my point was that Sri Ramana is not different from Sri Ramakrishna despite of the fact the one teach more jnana way and the other more bhakti. They both accept both. Even you always try to unite religions or just it was my impression. So where is the problem of my statement? Your path is Self-Inquiry. That's OK. But this is not the only way. So to say you must find out means not to follow Self-Inquiry but to find out your Self in your own way.

Best wishes, ramana1359
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Nagaraj

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #32 on: May 17, 2012, 08:20:57 PM »
Dear i,

but, differentiation occurs only when there is difference. when there is no difference already, what to unite really? Bhakti and Jnana are one and the same, such being, what is to see sameness, which is one and the same? When there is only One, what is the need to assert sameness to what?

i am not seeing difference at all, only if we see ramakrihna and ramana as seperate, does one need to see them as one, when already they are one? what need is there to assert their sameness? or what we need to do is break a biscuit into 2 and then we could say it is the same biscuit.

Bhakti is not different from jnana is not different from Yoga. they all culminate the same place. i have talked in the past, how even the one who sings Bhajan does the same enquiry in deeply immersed in it, when the one who does japa, does enquiry when deeply immersed in it, when the one who does yoga, does the same enquiry when deeply immersed in it. Similalry, when one who reads bible or shlokas, and deeply immerses himself into it and tries to assimilate the essence and meaning of what is truly conveyed, it is self enquiry.

i am also trying to convey, there is already no difference. what is required is abidance alone. That is more important. i am trying to say, there is no difference already to say, that they are all same, it is one whole biscuit, only we break it into halves to just to see the sameness as whole!

Why to see as your path, my path? what difference is there in your path and my path? it is the same goal that is there is your path and my path? what is there to differentiate here? when we just say as path, without YOU and MY then it is pure

There is no difference. this is discerned, i am putting focus on what now? now, it is abidance, that is the goal. this alone is important.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
« Last Edit: May 17, 2012, 08:28:15 PM by Nagaraj »
मनश्चेन्न लग्नं गुरोरंघ्रिपद्मे ततः किं ततः किं ततः किं ततः किम् ।।

Manaschenna lagnam Gurorangri padme, Thatha kim Thathah Kim, Thathah kim Thathah kim

If the mind does not remain at the Lotus feet of Guru, What is the use? What is the use? What is the use!!

Subramanian.R

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #33 on: May 17, 2012, 08:28:34 PM »
Dear Rai,

You also asked in your question, what does Sri Bhagavan mean by it?

Sri Bhagavan said that mind transfers some of its feelings to the body. I have given two examples, being afraid of a
pouncing tiger on you in the dream and the body  is seen sweating. Another is semen discharge during a dream.

In common parlance we say "this problem is a pain in my neck". Some difficult problems about which one may be thinking
results in pain in the neck. Problem is in the mind. But neck gets the pain. How?   We sometimes get bored about a lecture
in the class. The mind transfers the boredom into yawning which is a body response. There is vaccum in mind, nothing to do, nothing to achieve, they call it kAshaya stithi. In this kAshaya  stithi only, many people commit suicide. When the teacher scolds the boy for poor marks, (mind you, the teacher does not beat him), in presence of many other students, the student feels unlimited remorse and self pity,. The student commits suicide that night in the hostel room. The computer does not work due to modem problem for hours. My mind only
gets vexed but there comes head ache. 

These are all some examples of mind transferring the reactions to the body, in the form of pain, yawning and suicide attempts and
head ache.   

Arunachala Siva.

Subramanian.R

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #34 on: May 17, 2012, 08:35:43 PM »
Dear Ravi,

The body is expanded mind:

After hours of strike the modem functions properly and I start operating the machine. The head ache vanishes.

There is a long queue in Big Temple of Tiruvannamalai. My legs ache with queue moving inch by inch. The knee pain starts.
When I reach the sanctum and have darshan of my Cute Little Father, Arunachaleswara, the legs pain vanish, the knee pain
disappears,  because the mind is at peace and happiness.

The lady in labor pain cries and cries. When the baby is born, she looks at the baby, a male child (after two female children).
By just seeing the male baby she is happy and peaceful and the labor pain is forgotten or it vanishes.
 
Arunachala Siva.

Ravi.N

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #35 on: May 17, 2012, 08:37:35 PM »
Subramanian,
I have questioned your statement on what Sri Bhagavan said.Please review it.
Namaskar.

Hari

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #36 on: May 17, 2012, 09:23:12 PM »
Quote
Dear i,

but, differentiation occurs only when there is difference. when there is no difference already, what to unite really? Bhakti and Jnana are one and the same, such being, what is to see sameness, which is one and the same? When there is only One, what is the need to assert sameness to what?

i am not seeing difference at all, only if we see ramakrihna and ramana as seperate, does one need to see them as one, when already they are one? what need is there to assert their sameness? or what we need to do is break a biscuit into 2 and then we could say it is the same biscuit.

Bhakti is not different from jnana is not different from Yoga. they all culminate the same place. i have talked in the past, how even the one who sings Bhajan does the same enquiry in deeply immersed in it, when the one who does japa, does enquiry when deeply immersed in it, when the one who does yoga, does the same enquiry when deeply immersed in it. Similalry, when one who reads bible or shlokas, and deeply immerses himself into it and tries to assimilate the essence and meaning of what is truly conveyed, it is self enquiry.

i am also trying to convey, there is already no difference. what is required is abidance alone. That is more important. i am trying to say, there is no difference already to say, that they are all same, it is one whole biscuit, only we break it into halves to just to see the sameness as whole!

Why to see as your path, my path? what difference is there in your path and my path? it is the same goal that is there is your path and my path? what is there to differentiate here? when we just say as path, without YOU and MY then it is pure

There is no difference. this is discerned, i am putting focus on what now? now, it is abidance, that is the goal. this alone is important.

Dear, Nagaraj

the Mind always sees difference. When It stops It is called the Self. The Self and the Mind are not different, yes. The Self is Shiva, the Mind is His Shakti. So when we talk about Mind we cannot to not talk about different paths, methods and so on. But we must always bear in mind that this is just an illusion. Svami Shivananda has said that World is Brahman in motion and the World static is Brahman. The only obstacle is the realization of this truth. Until this realization there will be always difference. But we must always bear in mind that this difference is superficial. Actually there are no Gurus but One Guru. There is only One God and our Buddhi as Sri Udai has mentioned must always be aware of this truth no matter we have not realize it.
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Ravi.N

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #37 on: May 17, 2012, 09:33:05 PM »
Friends,
This is how Ramana started this thread:
"The mind is everything. The mind is ours. Then why we say that we cannot change anything? If part of man's karma is to prick his little finger and mind is so powerful then why this man cannot change this little thing like pricking his little finger? Is really the mind so helpless?"

This is the fundamental question that Ramana has asked .

This is what Sri Ramakrishna says:
Bondage and liberation are of the mind
"It is all a question of the mind. Bondage and liberation are of the mind alone. The mind
will take the colour you dye it with. It is like white clothes just returned from the laundry. If
you dip them in red dye, they will be red. If you dip them in blue or green, they will be blue
or green. They will take only the colour you dip them in, whatever it may be. Haven't you
noticed that, if you read a little English, you at once begin to utter English words: Foot fut
it mit? Then you put on boots and whistle a tune, and so on. It all goes together. Or, if a
scholar studies Sanskrit, he will at once rattle off Sanskrit verses. If you are in bad
company, then you will talk and think like your companions. On the other hand, when you
are in the company of devotees, you will think and talk only of God.
"The mind is everything. A man has his wife on one side and his daughter on the other. He
shows his affection to them in different ways. But his mind is one and the same.
"Bondage is of the mind, and freedom is also of the mind. A man is free if he constantly
thinks: 'I am a free soul. How can I be bound, whether I live in the world or in the forest? I
am a child of God, the King of Kings. Who can bind me?' If bitten by a snake, a man may
get rid of its venom by saying emphatically, 'There is no poison in me.' In the same way, by
repeating with grit and determination, 'I am not bound, I am free', one really becomes so; one
really becomes free."

If we go through the responses in this thread,we can see how the responses are colored by what one has read or associated with.

Ramana is trying to point out the wonder that the mind is-it is only when we realize this that we can at all come to terms with it.Not by dismissing it as trite or a nonentity,not through cliche, but only through appreciation and understanding the limitless nature of the mind can the mind become our friend.Then,as Sri Ramakrishna says:The Pure Mind is the same as the Pure Atman.

Namaskar.

Nagaraj

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #38 on: May 17, 2012, 10:09:40 PM »
there is always this shade of difference when one sees as Visishtadvaita and adviata. not all that is expressed can be dismissed off as mere theory or just reading. All that is said perfectly logical will always get categorised as Visishtadvaita, it is logically provable, and this is absolutely experiential and can be shared, but what one expresses as that nonduality is only anubhuti or self experiential alone, which cannot be shared.

If this alone be the standard, then what ever one may say is sure to be only bookish readings. which is why i have said in several posts, that each one communicates only with oneself alone.

என்னுடைய திட்டியிலெ யானன்றி நியில்லை
நின்னுடைய திட்டியிலெ நியன்றி யானில்லை
தன்னுடைய திட்டியிலெ தானன்றி மற்றில்லை
எண்ணுங்கா லவ்வனைத்தும் யான்
(1245)

Ennnnnnuttaiya Tittttiyile Yaannnannnrri Niyillai
Ninnnnnnuttaiya Tittttiyile Niyannnrri Yaannnillai
Tannnnnnuttaiya Tittttiyile Daannnannnrri Marrrrillai
Ennnnungkaa Lavvannnaittum Yaannn

In my [non-dual] outlook [in which I alone exist as the
reality], you do not exist but only I; in your [non-dual]
outlook [when you realize that you alone exist as the
reality], I do not exist but only you; in one’s own
[non-dual] outlook [when one has realized the truth],
others do not exist but only oneself. When [the truth
is thus] known, all of them [I, you, oneself and others]
are [nothing but] ‘I’ [the Self].

Prostrations to Bhagavan
मनश्चेन्न लग्नं गुरोरंघ्रिपद्मे ततः किं ततः किं ततः किं ततः किम् ।।

Manaschenna lagnam Gurorangri padme, Thatha kim Thathah Kim, Thathah kim Thathah kim

If the mind does not remain at the Lotus feet of Guru, What is the use? What is the use? What is the use!!

Nagaraj

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #39 on: May 17, 2012, 10:24:47 PM »
Dear i,

those of you who are members here for some time, and following for long time may remember, my postings as follows  in various relevant topics -



When you just posted your response. I read your post. What ever you have conveyed in your post, it is my own post (but it is your post) and, my response to this post is my own response to my own post (but it is your post).

When you now read my post as a response, it is your own response (but my response) to your own question, and, if you have any response to it, it is your response to your own post (but it is my post)

do you get it? If you are able to get a grasp of this, then many questions drop off by themselves.

Upanishads say Self is everywhere. when you read this, you are here and you are reading this, and you understand it. and if there is a question in this post, its your own question which is already there in you. and if you are responding to that question, its your own answer to your own question.

I am You. You am I



i had never before read the Guru Vachaka Kovai verse before until a couple of days back, which was a pleasant surprise to me as this is what i have felt so, since some time, that only i am, and the other is also myself, i ask friends, if this is my experiential how can i share it with you? for it is found in book, and if i say so, it becomes a book reading, the other can never know my anubhuti and so do i, can never know the 'others' anubhuti.

In this regard, let me also quote Bhagavan's words, as follows:

“My” implies the “I”, which owns the senses. You take your existence for granted; at the same time ask others to prove it to you. Similarly you admit the certainty of your senses, which see others, whilst denying all certainty. You see how you contradict yourself. The fact is that there are no others: there is no such a person as “you”. Each man, although addressed as “you”, styles himself as “I”. Even the confirmation you demand from others comes only from the “I”. “You” and “they” occur only to the “I”, without which they are meaningless.

Therefore, when it comes to nondual expressions, it stands alone, cannot be proved or does it even demand to be proved for only oneself alone is, what does that one got to prove to whom? :D its funny!

Prostrations to Bhagavan
मनश्चेन्न लग्नं गुरोरंघ्रिपद्मे ततः किं ततः किं ततः किं ततः किम् ।।

Manaschenna lagnam Gurorangri padme, Thatha kim Thathah Kim, Thathah kim Thathah kim

If the mind does not remain at the Lotus feet of Guru, What is the use? What is the use? What is the use!!

Hari

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #40 on: May 17, 2012, 10:51:38 PM »
Quote
This is what Sri Ramakrishna says:
Bondage and liberation are of the mind
"It is all a question of the mind. Bondage and liberation are of the mind alone. The mind
will take the colour you dye it with. It is like white clothes just returned from the laundry. If
you dip them in red dye, they will be red. If you dip them in blue or green, they will be blue
or green. They will take only the colour you dip them in, whatever it may be. Haven't you
noticed that, if you read a little English, you at once begin to utter English words: Foot fut
it mit? Then you put on boots and whistle a tune, and so on. It all goes together. Or, if a
scholar studies Sanskrit, he will at once rattle off Sanskrit verses. If you are in bad
company, then you will talk and think like your companions. On the other hand, when you
are in the company of devotees, you will think and talk only of God.
"The mind is everything. A man has his wife on one side and his daughter on the other. He
shows his affection to them in different ways. But his mind is one and the same.
"Bondage is of the mind, and freedom is also of the mind. A man is free if he constantly
thinks: 'I am a free soul. How can I be bound, whether I live in the world or in the forest? I
am a child of God, the King of Kings. Who can bind me?' If bitten by a snake, a man may
get rid of its venom by saying emphatically, 'There is no poison in me.' In the same way, by
repeating with grit and determination, 'I am not bound, I am free', one really becomes so; one
really becomes free."

Thank you, Sri Ravi for this beautiful explanation from Sri Ramakrishna!
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Hari

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #41 on: May 17, 2012, 11:02:34 PM »
Yes, Sri Nagaraj. This contradiction exists and will exist until what we believe and what we are "become" tha same. Yes, it is funny. We are not the first people who has realized that the world is just a play. This is part of the mystery of the mind. But I must give attention about some mistake which many so called non-dualists do. They say all is my Self but when they say that they actually mean (experiencially) "my self (ego)". This is very wrong. There is philosophy call solipsism which teaches exactly this. We must be aware of this grave mistake. I mark this because I have noticed that many "advaitins" are actually solipsists, deluded people who think the the world is their (e.g. belong to the ego) and they can do and say whatever they want because everything is their (patent), like - there is no harm, everything is mine and is actually unreal. Advaita is dangerous path for spiritually immature souls. I don't address this to you but for caution of all people who visit this Forum.

Best wishes, ramana1359
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Ravi.N

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #42 on: May 18, 2012, 06:22:43 AM »
Ramana/Friends,
I agree with Ramana.Many of the 'I ALONE AM' bhavana  borders on solipsism.The True Advaitic Siddhi or anubhuti is where there is no sense of 'I' and none to describe it.The True acid test is here,as in the story of Sri Ramakrishna:
Towards the end of his life on Earth,when Sri Ramakrishna was suffering from throat cancer and could hardly take even liquid food,Pundit Shashadhar one day suggested to the Master that the latter could remove the illness by concentrating his mind on the throat, the scriptures having declared that yogis had power
to cure themselves in that way
. The Master rebuked the pundit. "For a scholar like you to make such a proposal!" he said. "How can I withdraw the mind from the Lotus Feet of God and turn it to this worthless cage of flesh and blood?" "For our sake at least", begged Narendra and the other disciples. "But", replied Sri Ramakrishna, "do you think I enjoy this suffering? I wish to recover, but that depends on the Mother."
NARENDRA: "Then please pray to Her. She must listen to you."
MASTER: "But I cannot pray for my body."
NARENDRA: "You must do it, for our sake at least."
MASTER: "Very well, I shall try."
A few hours later the Master said to Narendra: "I said to Her: 'Mother, I cannot swallow food because of my pain. Make it possible for me to eat a little.' She pointed you all out to me and said: 'What? You are eating enough through all these mouths. Isn't that so?' I was
ashamed and could not utter another word."
This dashed all the hopes of the devotees for the Master's recovery.

Elsewhere in The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna,we find this:
Master could not ask God to cure him
MASTER: "I cannot ask God to cure my disease. The attitude of the servant-master
relationship is nowadays less strong in me.
Once in a while, I say, 'O Mother, please mend the sheath of the sword a little.' But such
prayers are also becoming less frequent. Nowadays I do not find my 'I'; I see that it is God
alone who resides in this sheath
."
The goswami had been invited to sing kirtan. A devotee asked, "Will there be any kirtan?"
Sri Ramakrishna was ill, and all were afraid that the kirtan might throw his mind into
ecstasy and thus aggravate the illness.
Sri Ramakrishna said: "Let there be a little singing. All are afraid of my going into ecstasy.
Spiritual emotion hurts the throat."
The goswami began the kirtan. Sri Ramakrishna could not control himself.
He stood up and began to dance with the devotees. The physician watched the whole scene.
A hired carriage was waiting for Dr. Rakhal. He and M. were ready to leave for Calcutta.
They saluted the Master. Sri Ramakrishna said to M. affectionately, "Have you had your
meal?"
Thursday, September 24, 1885
It was the night of the full moon. Sri Ramakrishna was sitting on the small couch. He was
very ill. M. and some other devotees were sitting on the floor.
MASTER (to M.): "Every now and then I think that the body is a mere pillow-case. The
only real substance is the Indivisible Satchidananda.
"When I go into divine ecstasy this illness of the throat remains away from me. I am now
somewhat in that mood and so I feel like laughing.
"

If we can say definitely that we are eating through so many mouths and see it as a fact-If our life is based on this firm realization that the Self is utterly different than the Body,then and then only we may be sure.Otherwise it is all at best ,just wishful thinking only.
The 'Soham' Bhavana may be used as a sadhana but one cannot bring it into use for discussion and communication in the workaday world.That would lead to confusion .
The Adage-'While in Rome,do as Romans do' is applicable to the workaday world.
Namaskar.

« Last Edit: May 18, 2012, 06:25:05 AM by Ravi.N »

Nagaraj

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #43 on: May 18, 2012, 08:55:07 AM »
dear i,

i agree with your concerns, both of yours, and the border line and so on.

But, even here, i just discern that the following. you can never talk for another absolutely, no matter what you may talk for the other, it is you very own. For instance, when Shri Ravi conveyed what you really meant in your original post, can never really convey what you have really conveyed, what ever he meant to convey ultimately is his very own, and never can be ramana's. Similarly when we say, 'Many of the 'I alone am' bhavana borders solipsism is limited to ones own experience alone and never others. I am just trying to bring light that what ever we say, is limited to our own light of knowledge and we can never really speak for any other, it is error to brand some other as some solipsism which is actually ourselves, so therefore, when we refer it as solipsism, we are only addressing to ourselves alone, one is talking about only oneself, one is referring to ones own self, one own Bhavana as solipsism! what ever we say, we are only saying about our own experiences alone and never the other. And when we use examples of Bhagavan Ramana or Ramakrishnar, about their advaitic expressions, it is only our very own, and not really theirs.

As Sri Ravi says, Soham bhavana cannot be  bought in to communication at all, simply noot possible, as who to communicate to whom? which is why i say repeatedly each comunnicate with oneself, and,  not to any other. i am here for just myself alone, for my own gratification alone, and not here to uplift anybody or share knowledge with anybody, i always talk/respond to myself alone.

But just one thing i want to say is that, one should not fear confusion and avoid discussions, one should face confusions, everybody has to face contradictions and cross the ocean of this sky and see the clarity. This is said by Sri V Ganesan and Brahmasri Nochur as well.

i discern, yet again, that one can only talk for oneself, and can never talk for 'the other' really. What ever we talk of others, world, many, etc. is only ourselves, and not really them!

God is there to care for the others who may find so called Advaita dangerous, not us.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
मनश्चेन्न लग्नं गुरोरंघ्रिपद्मे ततः किं ततः किं ततः किं ततः किम् ।।

Manaschenna lagnam Gurorangri padme, Thatha kim Thathah Kim, Thathah kim Thathah kim

If the mind does not remain at the Lotus feet of Guru, What is the use? What is the use? What is the use!!

Ravi.N

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #44 on: May 18, 2012, 09:14:45 AM »
Nagaraj,
Yes,everyone sees through the prism of the mind and all that one sees is colored by the mind.This is what Sri Ramakrishna has said.It is also true that when the mind is silent it is free to listen to what the other person is saying- then the mind then can take on that color and in this way know what the 'other' person has expressed,even if it is not fully  done.
coming to ''Many of the 'I alone am' bhavana borders solipsism is limited to one's own experience alone and never others-This is not an isolated observation,but is something that has been the warning from Great Masters,especially Sri Ramakrishna.I will post later on instances.
One of the fundamental foundation in sadhana is to harmonize thought,word and action.If there is a disconnect,there is a danger.The Great one's actions are eloquent and demonstrate this harmony.The least word or act of such a one carries its own conviction.
Namaskar.