Fundamental question about Mind!

[Nagaraj]

These line of discernment puts one on a hot iron plank, one cannot stand upon, there is no escape at all!

the more one tries to be that, one is actually going farther away from it. The paradoxical problem here is that in order to stop 'doing something' we are doing something else, really

Even trying to "Just be" is corrupting the Self, is making the Self impure.

Prostrations to Bhagavan

[Nagaraj]

Dear i,

i have one more discernment to share, the more we are trying to put attention on the Self, that much more we are actually away from it.

"Attention" How can Self Attention be possible? And immediately if i now say to myself, yes, i have to "just be" thats all, then what is "just being", these are the problems, the immediately following questions, discernment are the problems. What do i do? the very moment, i asked "what to do?" i have thrown a question out, for which i need to seek an answer.

      (          )

Prostrations to Bhagavan

[Hari]

Dear friends,
the real truth for me is that everything from the beginning to the end of every topic and comment in this forum and from "discovering" of Advaita to this day, hour and second is the Mind. Mind is just the Self, colored by some dye. Mind is not different from the Self. And how could It be when It is the Self!

People say the Self has no attributes but does the Mind have? No! Self is the waveless Ocean! Mind is the Ocean with waves! Isn't the Ocean what It is with or without waves? Even what I said that "Mind is colored Self" is not true because can the waves color or change the Ocean? Mind is illusion but not because It is not Real but because what It is is not permanent. It is like sand passing through our fingers. Ocean is what It is with and without waves. So we are what we are no matter if we call ourselves the Self or Mind. Actually every categorization of what we are is the Mind. Sri Nagarajji has said it very well:

Even trying to "Just be" is corrupting the Self, is making the Self impure.

The beautiful excepts which Sri Ravi has extracted from the Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna tell us the same. According to Sri Ramakrishna you cannot define or say what God is. You cannot say He is formless or with form; nameless or with Name; dual or nondual. God, the Self is what It/He IS! We just must BE THAT! But our problem is that we alway are looking at the waves, not the Ocean. When we look at the waves we become disappointed because we say "Oh, no, this wave changed its form! Oh, no, it disappeared, died". But when we know that these waves are actually just the Ocean then everything change. "O, there were no waves, It was just the Ocean playing with Itself".

I totally agree that intellectual understanding of Atma-vichara is of extreme importance. And this is why I appreciate this forum very very much. But we must stop deluding ourselves that Self-inquiry is something very special or superior. Self-inquiry is just surrender begun with our thoughts and Saranagathi is just surrender started by our emotional part of the mind. Actually both of the are the same. They are after surrendering of our little illusory "i" to our real "I". The Goal is realizing that they are one and the same! Everything is the Self. Actually there is no paths, methods or whatever but that doesn't mean that the different methods and paths are pointless. The dream "I" need "dream food". Let never forget that!

The real problem is not the waves in the ocean but why we identify ourselves with one wave but not with entire Ocean?

[Ravi.N]

Ramana,
Wonderful post from you!This is the point.Most persons are doing self-enquiry ,not because it is the only thing to be done,i.e their inner need ,but it is the 'ultimate' thing to be done!; what is dear is all  that matters and not what is ultimate.Sri Bhagavan says clearly that what can be dearer than the self!If approached this way,it is one form of devotion.
Sadhana is an inner urge which cannot be rationalized.However humble that inner urge is ,if one proceeds with that one will be guided.Eventually all the sadhanas converge in 'I do not know.I am open and keen to receive the Truth' attitude.When this need is deeply felt,the Divine or God Responds.
This is how Sri Ramakrishna puts it:
"The grace of God falls alike on all His children, learned and illiterate―whoever longs for
Him. The father has the same love for all his children. Suppose a father has five children.
One calls him 'Baba', some 'Ba', and some 'Pa'. These last cannot pronounce the whole
word. Does the father love those who address him as 'Baba' more than those who call him
'Pa'? The father knows that these last are simply too young to say 'Baba' correctly."
It does not matter what our path is as long as we have deep love and earnestness.It is this that is paramount and not what path one pursues.
Again sri Ramakrishna says:
"One should have faith in the holy name given by the guru and with it practise spiritual
discipline. It is said that the pearl oyster makes itself ready for the rain that falls when the
star Svati is in the ascendant. Taking a drop of that rain, it dives into the fathomless depths
of the ocean and remains there until the pearl is formed."
Just 'one drop' -one seed idea,one relationship that God is our mother,our father,our self-whatever it be-Just deepen this and live it.This is all required.Sadhana is only this.In course of time it will mature into Love and Wisdom.
Namaskar.


 

[Ravi.N]

subramanian,
you were referring to the final talks of annamalai swami and saying that it can be taken as authority!What is authority!?Perhaps you meant definitive.Did anyone ask annamalai swami-'swami,please show me the way'?If someone had asked then perhaps Swami would have advised suitably.Most people come with just 'Thoughts' and they will return carrying 'more thoughts'.One gets what one wants!
This is the refrain that swami wrote in each of his letters to me:
தேகம் நான் என்ற எண்ணம் தான் 21 நரகம்.தேகம் நானல்ல .எண்ணங்கள் நானல்ல.ஆத்மாவே நான் .அதுவே எல்லாம்.

'I am the Body' thought is the 21 hells.Body ,I am not;Thought,I am not;Atma am I;That is All'
Swami asked me to write this over and over again.I wrote a letter back where I had written just this over and over again.Swami was immensely delighted.
This is the way Swami practiced and attained self Realization.He did not practice 'self-enquiry'!This is the traditional advaita vedanta way.Surely this is quite an effective way if done with understanding and conviction.
Namaskar.

[Nagaraj]

Dear i,

And God fulfils Himself in many ways,
 Lest one good custom should corrupt the world.

    - A Tennyson

The real problem is not the waves in the ocean but why we identify ourselves with one wave but not with entire Ocean?

Dear i, is the waves different from ocean, after the dawn of knowledge, there is nothing to identify with really.

One may gather a handful of ripples,
But it is only water in the hand. (Jnaneshwar)

The moment we separate waves from ocean, the Self has begin to play, yet again, to re discover itself once again.

There is no identification, still, what ever one identifies with, is but the Self itself. The Self has nothing else to identify with, but Its Self!

Prostrations to Bhagavan

[Nagaraj]

தேகம் நான் என்ற எண்ணம் தான் 21 நரகம்.தேகம் நானல்ல .எண்ணங்கள் நானல்ல.ஆத்மாவே நான் .அதுவே எல்லாம்.
'I am the Body' thought is the 21 hells.Body ,I am not;Thought,I am not;Atma am I;That is All'
Swami asked me to write this over and over again.I wrote a letter back where I had written just this over and over again.Swami was immensely delighted.

Dear i,

Have you had discussions with Annamalai Swami? Could you please share glimpses of your meeting with Sri Annamalai Swami? at leisure? and your meetings with other direct devotees? if any?

Thank you.

Prostrations to Bhagavan

[Nagaraj]

WRT Authority,

“Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.”

 - Buddha

And, the only aim of Buddha, here, is to awaken the discerning seeds with each and every one. Perhaps, expressions such as these, have made Buddha as though he was against Vedas.

Q. "Buddha is said to have ignored questions about God."

Ramana Maharshi: "Yes, and for this he has been called an agnostic. In fact, Buddha was more concerned with leading the seeker to Bliss here and now, rather than with academic speculations about God and so forth." (talks)

Prostrations to Bhagavan

[Ravi.N]

Nagaraj,
I am copying what I posted in David's Blog in July 2008.May be this will interest you.
I am eagerly looking forward to seeing Sri Annamalai Swami through that video!This is a great boon for all who have been fortunate in having met this this great guru bhakta!The word 'great' seems to be bombastic and out of place whenever we talk about this utterly simple and unassuming person!It brings to my mind's eye how he used to bring out his simple mat from the inner room and spread it out for us to sit!
Just want to share one concrete treasure that he gave me and which is kept in my Pooja shrine.This is a small trapezoidal rock that he gave to me.Before giving it he briefed me that he found these 2 rock pieces(He gave one to me and one to my B-in-Law)by the side of Arunachala and divined some attraction power(Akarshana shakti  is the word he used)in these."can pooja be performed to this?"-he asked.It was a momentous decision for me!I am not given to things like pooja!All the same I did not want to jeopardise my chance of securing the rare TREASURE by .I quickly asked him -"Is Lalitha Sahasranamam okay?(I just banked on my wife!She does this chanting!This came in handy.!)Swami replied "Yes.That is okay" and gave me this treasure of Arunachala.He gave the other piece to my B-in-Law which he has kept in his pooja room(in USA).
Same way,I got your book-Living by the words of Bhagavan (I was addressing david in this post-ravi)as a compliment from swami with his autograph.This book ,I gave to one of my acquaintance and he is yet to return it back!The last time when I reminded him,he said that it is perhaps bundled along with other books and has reached some inaccessible nook in his loft!"Can't we buy another copy"was his very helpful suggestion!I told him that there is something in that earlier copy that cannot be bought!He has promised to retrieve this copy back.(It is still not returned to me.I bought another book. -ravi,may 21,2012!)
more later....
namaskar.

[Nagaraj]

Dear i,

really wonderful to read your memories.

long before, when i was still new to Arunachala, i was just so fascinated by the Hill, that i wanted to take with me some nice small stone as a remembrance, with may be some ideas, as that i could worship that stone, the Hill had cast some spell, some impression from within. Then, i remembered the sayings of elders that one should not take anything from Siva temple, and i remembered those words - Sivan Sothu Kula Naasam, so, i pacified myself, and kept quiet. The very next visit, when i went to Arunachala, i went up to Skandasramam,, and one person, had made Arunahala Hill replicate, and he himself approached me to buy it for some money. I immediately bought it and have it in our Puja room

Prostrations to Bhagavan

[Subramanian.R]

Dear Ravi,

Nice to see your post on Annamalai Swami and his presentation of rock pieces of Annamalai to you.  I have not seen Annamalai
Swami. However David's book Final Talks is a good collection of his conversations with devotees.  Earlier I had a Tamizh book
titled Sri Ramana NinaivugaL where Annamalai Swami has written about his conversations with Sri Bhagavan. Two anecdotes
I shall give.

1. Once Sri Bhagavan wanted A.S to copy the small book ellAm onRe and read it every day. Due to busy work A.S. could not
copy it himself. Sri Bhagavan copied that book and gave hand written copy to him!
What a treasure.

2. Once Sri A.S. asked Sri Bhagavan: Whether even those who have been quite near to God or Guru could make mistakes and
accumulate sins?  Sri Bhagavan answered: Why not? That is possible. See Jaya and Vijaya who were the guardians of Maha
Vishnu's abode. Did they not commit a sin by preventing Sanaka and others from entering Vishnu's abode?

(Sri Bhagavan's words came true in the case of Perumal Swami! Once Perumal Swami has even held the vomit of Sri Bhagavan,
when He had some indigestion, on his palm. Such a person changed later.)   

I write this out of memory. The actual words may be different. I am not able to find out the book immediately.

Once I got a small piece of rock from a stranger, stating that it was from the Hill. He asked for Rs 20. I bought it.
This rock piece was somewhere misplaced now. I did not keep it in puja room as Ravi had done. However, I wrote in
David's blog about it stating whether there is any difference in Brahman, small or big?
       
       
Arunachala Siva.

[Hari]

All dear friends,
yes, the mind must be disciplined and we must follow Guru's advices. But I want to add something more. Our mind must be like that of the children. Children's mind is hungry for knowledge. They accept everything you tell them. Their mind is pure, devoid of anger, passion, intrigues, greed or lust. They want to know what the Reality is. We must be like the children and listen carefully the words of our Father (God, Guru).

Glory to the children! Blessed they be!

[Subramanian.R]

Dear Ramana,

Yes. Sri Bhagavan has been described by many devotees as one with child-like personality. It is not childish personality.
His smile, His talk were always simple and childlike. Sri Bhagavan once said: The child and the Jnani are one and the same.
The only difference is that the child still holds vasanas (built in, not yet out) and ignorance, whereas a Jnani does not have.

Saint Manikkavachagar calls himself as a child of Siva in many places in Tiruvachakam. He says: thAyAi mulaiyaith tharuvone,
thAradhu ozhinthAl chavalaiyAi, nAyen kazhinthu poveno?..... O Lord, who gives his breasts to this child, if you don't give
I shall suffer like a chavalai baby. (Anndamalai, Verse 5).

Chavalai baby is one who is born within say, 18 months of the earlier baby (in olden days). Now the first baby wants milk and
the younger baby also wants milk. What shall the mother do?  The saint says he is one like that!         

Devaraja Mudaliar used to call himself as Ramana Sey, i.e. Sri Ramana's baby!

Arunachala Siva.

[srkudai]

Dear Subramanian ji,
        Reminds me of the Annamalai Swami CD you sent me ! Its precious really! I was very much benefited by it.
Though any number of thanks wont be sufficient for that wonderful gift   -- Thank you.

[Subramanian.R]

Dear srkudai,

I remember that. In fact when I came to Hyderabad for my son's first deepavali with his inlaws (for which we were also invited),
I tried to locate your place but could not succeed. Thereafter, I visited  Ramana Kendramu in Tilak Nagar and also Skandagiri
Subrahmanya Temple. It was in Oct-November 2010. The weather was quite unfriendly with intermittent rains.

Arunachala Siva.