Author Topic: Fundamental question about Mind!  (Read 173447 times)

srkudai

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #180 on: May 21, 2012, 03:28:27 PM »
:) it would have been nice to meet ! Please do ping me when you come next time to hyd, we can talk for a while.

Subramanian.R

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #181 on: May 21, 2012, 03:43:06 PM »
Dear srkudai,

Yes. I shall definitely do.

Arunachala Siva.

Hari

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #182 on: May 21, 2012, 04:30:45 PM »
What should be our attitude toward desires and mental objects? Should we escape or satisfy them? Is there any benefic if a person wants something, can have it but reject it? Some say yes. Some say no. I will say my opinion and will be happy if I know your too.

Let say that you have decided to exclude some foods of your diet, e.g. ice cream. If you want to eat ice cream very eagerly right now and you always think about it and it is time you have planned to "do" your sadhana should you satisfy your craving? This craving makes you restless and nervous. Which is more "damaging" for this person - to break his/her rule to not eat ice cream or to do it and then to continue his/her sadhana? My experience is that suppressing desires doesn't do much good. But sometimes it is very necessary. This creates much confusion. What is best for person?
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sanjaya_ganesh

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #183 on: May 21, 2012, 04:38:09 PM »
Dear Ramana

I would agree with you that an intense craving should not be stopped abruptly. Such violent methods will not lead us the right way. In my mind, this is like how you tame a wild horse. Following is what I have heard on taming it. First they put a ring fence around some 2 acre land and let it run wild there for few days. Then they reduce the circumference to one acre and let it run wild within that. Then it is slowly reduced each time giving the wild horse some time to get accustomed to the lesser area it can run. Finally you reduce the fence to a short area and then slowly try to mount it. First stand near it. Then touch it and finally you will be able to mount it without the horse kicking you off. Instead of this, if we try to mount it the first day - it may even kill you in one kick.

-Sanjay
Salutations to Bhagawan

Nagaraj

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #184 on: May 21, 2012, 05:02:56 PM »
Dear i,

Would it make good, first, if we look into this question, as to, why desires are harmful?

We have built a "Taboo" on desires unknowingly. Therefore, first, looking into why any desire is harmful, and, in what way, can desires be impediment to jnana?

Prostrations to Bhagavan
मनश्चेन्न लग्नं गुरोरंघ्रिपद्मे ततः किं ततः किं ततः किं ततः किम् ।।

Manaschenna lagnam Gurorangri padme, Thatha kim Thathah Kim, Thathah kim Thathah kim

If the mind does not remain at the Lotus feet of Guru, What is the use? What is the use? What is the use!!

Hari

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #185 on: May 21, 2012, 06:10:56 PM »
Quote
Would it make good, first, if we look into this question, as to, why desires are harmful?

We have built a "Taboo" on desires unknowingly. Therefore, first, looking into why any desire is harmful, and, in what way, can desires be impediment to jnana?

Yes, Sri Nagarajji. That would be very beneficial. Tasting the objects of our desires is called different in different religions and philosophies - pain, suffering, sin, death and so on. Desire is harmful because it is like a weed. If you satisfy it it would give seeds and even more "baby-desires" will grow up so the weed will survive in time. Desire is the food for the ego. It is also its poison because it kills it at least as phenomenon we call "death". Desire just means action with attachment. When action is done without attachment then this action is not harmful. Action actually means not only physical action but even mentally because all actions are truly product of the action of the mind. So what is more proper, at least for the beginner - to try to do what the body and mind to do but trying to not be attached? Or to shun any "wrong activity" which is generated in the mind? But isn't every activity with attachment (no matter how we would define it - good or bad, holly or unholly) again attachment? And how could we escape the great obstacle - the desire for liberation? Very difficult theme for me.
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Nagaraj

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #186 on: May 21, 2012, 06:36:28 PM »
Dear i,

Basically, i discern this, that, we desire, to be happy. This is fundamental and certain fact. We seek happiness, from something else only because, we are currently unhappy the way we are, or, there is some sense of incompleteness, which we try to fill it by various means - wealth, men/woman, children and so on. And, it is also seen, very evidently, that, these are not making us complete, simply because they are quickly emptied, or we need to keep re fueling, again and again, by seeking more from the desired object.

This is plainly because, we have not yet (if i am allowed to use the word) "Tasted" the bliss of Self. Desires are like dreams really, we cannot destroy them or control them, for any attempt to do so, only means to aspiring to control the "Seen" which is not real - as we have seen already, how only the Seer alone is Real.

In order to be fully free of desires, what i discern is that, here again, we need to experience the Seer, that we are, the 'i' that we are. There is a requirement, yet again, to intellectually discern the bliss of Self, so as to discern that the bliss of Self is far superior to the other desires, only then, as one Self is dear to one Self, the Self reposes as Self as bliss.

What is the way to experience the bliss of Self? the only possible way is to discern, is to See, the Seer, and see for ourselves. At this very moment, this does seem like "is it really possible??" but this is the only way, i discern. One has to constantly See the Self by reposing as Self and then contemplate comparing this experience of reposing as Self with that of other experiences derived from objects. The more we do this sincerely, i feel, surely discern, will end the ajnana that desries of objects are superior to the bliss of Self.

Renouncing is not an Act, but it in involuntary, on the dawn of absolute Jnana. Renouncing desires is really the result of dawn of True Jnana. One cannot renounce, for renouncing is genuinely not possible, because, truly there is nothing to renounce, for, how can a dream be renounced? only by waking, and there is no other way!

Prostrations to Bhagavan
मनश्चेन्न लग्नं गुरोरंघ्रिपद्मे ततः किं ततः किं ततः किं ततः किम् ।।

Manaschenna lagnam Gurorangri padme, Thatha kim Thathah Kim, Thathah kim Thathah kim

If the mind does not remain at the Lotus feet of Guru, What is the use? What is the use? What is the use!!

Subramanian.R

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #187 on: May 21, 2012, 06:45:27 PM »
Dear Ramana, sanjaya_ganesh,

Any desire or craving for a particular item, be it food item or even items like cigarettes, tobacco, drinks etc., should be left
in one shot and not by gradual reduction. It is impossible, at least in my experience to stop anything slowly, step by step.

When once my father told me (he was an acute diabetic) that I should stop my sugar items including sugar in coffee or tea
soon. I stopped it when I crossed 40 suddenly on a particular day. Today, I cannot have coffee or tea with sugar. In functions,
like marriages when they serve sugar delicacies, I take on my leaf but I do not taste it even a bit. Even in Asramam, I just
touch with one finger items like payasam and taste it as Guru Ramana Prasadam and then leave the rest. It is more than
a decade that I had tasted the ice creams and Cadbury chocolates.

Even on festival days at home, when my wife prepares paysam etc, I do not take it.

I have found people not able to stop smoking cigarettes slowly reducing one by one.  People who have abruptly stopped it
have succeeded.

Arunachala Siva.   

Nagaraj

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #188 on: May 21, 2012, 07:08:57 PM »
Dear i,

Fundamentally, i would like to correct my views from my last post.

There is no question of desire for one who has truly see the Self, convincingly. No desires can haunt such a one, for such a one, who is only One, where is the other to Desire truly?

Therefore, Dear i, i discern, now, to focus all attention only on That one alone, and i discern it as needless to find how one may overcome desires.

The Self Alone is.

Such doubts arises only when we move away from the center of discernment that we arrived yesterday. i discern here, that this question is redundant -

What should be our attitude toward desires and mental objects? Should we escape or satisfy them? Is there any benefic if a person wants something, can have it but reject it? Some say yes. Some say no. I will say my opinion and will be happy if I know your too.

Let say that you have decided to exclude some foods of your diet, e.g. ice cream. If you want to eat ice cream very eagerly right now and you always think about it and it is time you have planned to "do" your sadhana should you satisfy your craving? This craving makes you restless and nervous. Which is more "damaging" for this person - to break his/her rule to not eat ice cream or to do it and then to continue his/her sadhana? My experience is that suppressing desires doesn't do much good. But sometimes it is very necessary. This creates much confusion. What is best for person?

There is no Confusion, as Self. i just go back to my intellectual discernment.

The Seer alone is, if only 'seen' truly exists, does this question can even arise.

.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
मनश्चेन्न लग्नं गुरोरंघ्रिपद्मे ततः किं ततः किं ततः किं ततः किम् ।।

Manaschenna lagnam Gurorangri padme, Thatha kim Thathah Kim, Thathah kim Thathah kim

If the mind does not remain at the Lotus feet of Guru, What is the use? What is the use? What is the use!!

Nagaraj

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #189 on: May 21, 2012, 07:13:20 PM »
From that Center, there is nothing to fear. no falling down. Such a one can never do anything that would not befit the Self. from this center, i discern, the question that is being discussed presently about desires is something, that is of future, and trying to plan what we can do to prevent it. which is illusion!

Prostrations to Bhagavan
मनश्चेन्न लग्नं गुरोरंघ्रिपद्मे ततः किं ततः किं ततः किं ततः किम् ।।

Manaschenna lagnam Gurorangri padme, Thatha kim Thathah Kim, Thathah kim Thathah kim

If the mind does not remain at the Lotus feet of Guru, What is the use? What is the use? What is the use!!

Hari

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #190 on: May 21, 2012, 07:25:31 PM »
Ok, I ask personally, what you do when desire pops up? For example if today is Mahashivaratri and you must not eat how could you prevent this desire? You may say that the body needs for. Ok. But one day without food is not problem for the body. So the problem is not the physical needs but more psychological. Or if you have not done sex much time is your prostate gland is fool of semen how could you prevent it and follow so prescribed celibate lifestyle. I think these examples are important for all spiritual seekers, no matter of their religion and philosophy.
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Nagaraj

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #191 on: May 21, 2012, 07:38:18 PM »
Dear i,

there is a direct inference from what i have written - the only way is to seek the self and repose as Self. All other ways to overcome desires are only temporary!

What is required is to take further the intellectual discernment into Atma Nishta. In that process, ups and downs are bound to happen, but a true Dhira (Steadfast sadhaka) doesn't stop, doesn't judge, and look around, and ponder, how to stop it the next time, rather he gets up and continues to try without looking back and keeps focus on the goal, by which ever Sadhana he may be inclined to, to remain steadfast with the intellectual discernment.

Prostrations to Bhagavan


Prostrations to Bhagavan
मनश्चेन्न लग्नं गुरोरंघ्रिपद्मे ततः किं ततः किं ततः किं ततः किम् ।।

Manaschenna lagnam Gurorangri padme, Thatha kim Thathah Kim, Thathah kim Thathah kim

If the mind does not remain at the Lotus feet of Guru, What is the use? What is the use? What is the use!!

Nagaraj

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #192 on: May 21, 2012, 07:42:53 PM »
According to some legend an emperor when he was jailed after a bad defeat, observed a spider spinning a web, trying to make a connection from one area of the cave's roof to another. Each time the spider failed, it began again until it succeeded. Inspired by this, the emperor returned to inflict a series of defeats on the English, thus winning him more supporters and eventual victory.

"if at first you don't succeed, try try again."

We should always remember this watching the spider make its attempt seven times, succeeding on the eighth try!

Point to note is that the Spider's effort on all 7 occassions were made with utter sincerity and maximum effort!

Like how Lord says in Gita Uddharet Atmanaatmanam - the Self is both your friend (Devas) and your enemy (Asuras). When your find yourself being pulled by your own bad self (Asuras), you have to pull yourself(Devas) back again to poise.

Once the intellectual discernment is strong and convincing, one can never fall down, therefore, one has to simply get up and move on, each time he is bound to fall. There is no looking back for such a one, no sins attach to him!

Prostrations to Bhagavan
मनश्चेन्न लग्नं गुरोरंघ्रिपद्मे ततः किं ततः किं ततः किं ततः किम् ।।

Manaschenna lagnam Gurorangri padme, Thatha kim Thathah Kim, Thathah kim Thathah kim

If the mind does not remain at the Lotus feet of Guru, What is the use? What is the use? What is the use!!

Nagaraj

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #193 on: May 21, 2012, 07:50:50 PM »
Discerning yet again, that even this moment when we are trying to discern about how to overcome desires, it is only about the past and future, both of which are not true - now!

Therefore our discernment here is like believing, we could either go back to past or get into the future and try to over come the desires by any way that we discern!

This moment, this moment, now, there is neither past or future, the moment we begin to think, it is past already! Be Still and know that I am God. Nishta, Abidance, constant striving for that Abidance of that perfect intellectual understanding is the only way of salvation.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
मनश्चेन्न लग्नं गुरोरंघ्रिपद्मे ततः किं ततः किं ततः किं ततः किम् ।।

Manaschenna lagnam Gurorangri padme, Thatha kim Thathah Kim, Thathah kim Thathah kim

If the mind does not remain at the Lotus feet of Guru, What is the use? What is the use? What is the use!!

Nagaraj

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Re: Fundamental question about Mind!
« Reply #194 on: May 21, 2012, 07:55:05 PM »
Dear i,

For an illusive impediment, proper intellectual discernment itself would suffice to kill the illusion. Kill the illusion by illusive knowledge. For Being the Self requires no effort on our part. All effort is to only discern all that is Not Self. Each time, some impediment comes about, it is to be chopped off with sharp knife of discernment.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
मनश्चेन्न लग्नं गुरोरंघ्रिपद्मे ततः किं ततः किं ततः किं ततः किम् ।।

Manaschenna lagnam Gurorangri padme, Thatha kim Thathah Kim, Thathah kim Thathah kim

If the mind does not remain at the Lotus feet of Guru, What is the use? What is the use? What is the use!!