Author Topic: Yoga (Patanjali) is Not Sufficient - Panchadasi  (Read 19795 times)

Tushnim.Asanam

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Yoga (Patanjali) is Not Sufficient - Panchadasi
« on: March 19, 2013, 04:34:47 PM »
Chapter 4: verse 38:
bandas chet maanasam dvaitam tannirodhena shaamyati |
abhyased yogameva atah brahma jnanena kim vada ?

[Objection raised by purva paksha: If mind causes bondages through duality, nirodha (citta vritti nirodha) or elimination of it shall resolve this duality (shaamyati). so only Yoga (that yoga which helps citta vritti nirodha) is sufficient for this purpose; what is the necessity of knowledge of brahman ?]

Verse 39:
taatkalika dvaita shaantau apyagavijanischayah
brahmajnanam vina nasayad iti vedanta dindimah ||

[taatkalika dvaita shaantau : temporarily the thoughts get eliminated (in nirvikalpa samadhi)
  api ... even thought ...
 agami jani kshayah nashyat : future samsara cannot be destroyed (by this process )
 brahma jnanam vina : without brahma jnanam
 nasyad iti vedanta dindimah : vedanta loudly proclaims that without brahma jnana this is not possible.

Though there can be temporary elimination of thought [through mind control) without brahma jnanam the future arising of mind will not cease. ]

Harih OM!
http://www.selfabidance.blogspot.in/

sanjaya_ganesh

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Re: Yoga (Patanjali) is Not Sufficient - Panchadasi
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2013, 04:56:59 PM »
Yoga vasista confirms the same through the story of Brigu. It clearly shows how the vasanas remain intact even after a thousand years into nirvikalpa samadhi. The conversations between Lord Yama and Brigu is fantastic too.

Sanjay
Salutations to Bhagawan

Tushnim.Asanam

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Re: Yoga (Patanjali) is Not Sufficient - Panchadasi
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2013, 05:07:56 PM »
Absolutely.
And yoga vasishta also has a statement saying that mind cannot be brought into control by repeated meditaion practises without the aid of yukti [reasoning -- based upon scriptures].

Harih OM!
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Nagaraj

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Re: Yoga (Patanjali) is Not Sufficient - Panchadasi
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2013, 07:04:27 PM »
While the points may be right in book, but in spirit they narrow the unlimited expanse of Truth! i humbly would like to convey that the scriptures do not lay any specific formula which alone works. Neither Shankara nor Ramanuja or Madhva or Jesus or Mohammad or Ramana or Ramakrishna are the sole bearer for the Truth.

For instance, i produce below from Shandilya Bhakti Sutras, the following Sutra -

Jnanamitichenna - dvishato - apt jnanasya  tadasamsthiteh II 4 II
 
Some may opine that for culturing devotion to God philosophical knowledge : jnana is indispensible or there is necessary preconditional subsequence of philosophical  knowledge of God. (Shandilya says) We say absolutely not, because we know an antagonist may also have knowledge  of God but there rests not an iota of devotion in his  mind towards God. And he never gets the state of highest blessedness.


I am yet again reminded Tennyson's wonderful expression -

God fulfils Himself in many ways, Lest one good custom should corrupt the world.

--
मनश्चेन्न लग्नं गुरोरंघ्रिपद्मे ततः किं ततः किं ततः किं ततः किम् ।।

Manaschenna lagnam Gurorangri padme, Thatha kim Thathah Kim, Thathah kim Thathah kim

If the mind does not remain at the Lotus feet of Guru, What is the use? What is the use? What is the use!!

Ravi.N

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Re: Yoga (Patanjali) is Not Sufficient - Panchadasi
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2013, 08:33:07 PM »
Nagaraj,
Here is an excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
Quote
There are innumerable pathways leading to the Ocean of Immortality. The essential thing is to reach the Ocean. It doesn't matter which path you follow. Imagine that there is a reservoir containing the Elixir of Immortality. You will be immortal if a few drops of the Elixir somehow get into your mouth. You may get into the reservoir either by jumping into it, or by being pushed into it from behind, or by slowly walking down the steps. The effect is one and the same. You will become immortal by tasting a drop of that Elixir.
Innumerable are the ways that lead to God. There are the paths of jnana, of karma, and of bhakti. If you are sincere, you will attain God in the end, whichever path you follow.

I am often amused at these narrow sectarian views-be it from whatever books-we never know whether they are interpolations!In any case we are sure they are wrong!We do not find such dogmatic statements in the vedas and Upanishads,nor in the words of the Great ones in recent times that have been well documented.

Namaskar.

sanjaya_ganesh

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Re: Yoga (Patanjali) is Not Sufficient - Panchadasi
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2013, 07:53:00 AM »
Friends

Nothing is "narrow" or "broad". Various scriptures talk about various ways and methods. No scriptures claims to talk complete and whole. So it is up to us to accept what we find as leading us to the goal of Supreme Truth and not accept others. So let us not reject great texts like Panchadasi saying "sectarian" and "narrow" etc. I humbly believe none of us in this forum are greater than Vidyaranya Swamigal to reject his ideas as narrow and sectarian. So if we dont understand, let us say so. If we dont like let us say so. If we find it too hard to accept, let us say so. If we find it too complex, let us say so. Rejecting great men and their works as narrow and sectarian will not serve any purpose in our sadhana - I can assure you. NO need to be amused and reject texts like Panchadasi as narrow and sectarian and take it that far into rejection mode.

Again, Let us accept that goal is one and paths are a million. There may be narrows roads, broad roads, tough roads, easy roads, beautiful roads, ugly roads etc.. all leading to the destination.

Best of luck
Sanjay.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2013, 07:56:22 AM by sanjaya_ganesh »
Salutations to Bhagawan

Ravi.N

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Re: Yoga (Patanjali) is Not Sufficient - Panchadasi
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2013, 08:05:59 AM »
Sanjaya,

Quote
I humbly believe none of us in this forum are greater than Vidyaranya Swamigal to reject his ideas as narrow and sectarian. So if we dont understand, let us say so. If we dont like let us say so. If we find it too hard to accept, let us say so. If we find it too complex, let us say so. Rejecting great men and their works as narrow and sectarian will not serve any purpose in our sadhana - I can assure you. NO need to be amused and reject texts like Panchadasi as narrow and sectarian and take it that far into rejection mode.


Do we give the same credit to maharshi patanjali?We can see how selectively our minds function.We are not rejecting the works in toto;all the same we are not required to accept the ideas that they may emphasize in an exclsuive fashion as if they are the whole Truth.

Namaskar.

sanjaya_ganesh

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Re: Yoga (Patanjali) is Not Sufficient - Panchadasi
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2013, 08:09:00 AM »
Yes of course. You need to give the same credit to Patanjali too. No doubts on that. No need to be selective.

Sanjay
Salutations to Bhagawan

Nagaraj

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Re: Yoga (Patanjali) is Not Sufficient - Panchadasi
« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2013, 09:17:23 AM »
Yes of course. You need to give the same credit to Patanjali too. No doubts on that. No need to be selective.

Dear Sri Sanjay,

not meaning anything personal... but just a discernment, pointer, for all of ourselves... i am sure, what you have conveyed is absolutely in inadvertent, not really meaning... but, doesn't it ring bell within us, as to, who are we to give credit to Sages? or Recognition to Sages? Who are we to evaluate scriptures...

who are we? to say, this is enough, that is not enough, etc...

Who are we?

Bhagavan Ramana says - "The deeper the humility with which we conduct ourselves, the better it is for us."

Tushnim, i do not mean any thing against your thoughts, but, does it really befit wisdom to open a topic thus - "Yoga (Patanjali) is Not Sufficient - Panchadasi"

You may have some points to bring to light, but there is a beauty and elegance in bringing it open, like a blooming flower. We need not show down something else inorder to show light. There is a way... and that is the beautiful way.

PS: not written with a spirit of pointing out an error or mistake or about what is right or wrong, etc... purely a personal reflection un-aimed at anybody.

Just for Self Pondering, contemplation!

--
मनश्चेन्न लग्नं गुरोरंघ्रिपद्मे ततः किं ततः किं ततः किं ततः किम् ।।

Manaschenna lagnam Gurorangri padme, Thatha kim Thathah Kim, Thathah kim Thathah kim

If the mind does not remain at the Lotus feet of Guru, What is the use? What is the use? What is the use!!

sanjaya_ganesh

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Re: Yoga (Patanjali) is Not Sufficient - Panchadasi
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2013, 09:20:19 AM »
:) Nagaraj garu

I just responded to the following statement by Ravi and used the same words. Your point is valid. That is exactly what I wrote above about criticizing and rejecting texts.

Written by Ravi Ji
Quote
Do we give the same credit to maharshi patanjali?

Sanjay
Salutations to Bhagawan

Nagaraj

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Re: Yoga (Patanjali) is Not Sufficient - Panchadasi
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2013, 09:33:16 AM »
Sri Sanjay,

I do not want to be construed as supporting Sri Ravi, but again, i felt, he too has just conveyed the same essence as what i mused in my previous post, as the very topic was demeaning The Yoga Sutras of Patanjali. Also, yes, you also have rightfully conveyed that Sage Patanjali ought to be given credit. But in my flawed communication, i pray, hope you get what is being conveyed in essence, which is the Higher essence.

it also brings to our conscience, how flawed our communication is, where as a Jnani's communication can never be misconstrued. This is the command of God what Sri Ramakrishna referred to in Gospel, as to who can really preach.

We got to face it, no matter what clarity we may have within, without the command of God or the Higher power, one cannot preach.

These things cannot be ignored.

Thanks to all.

--
मनश्चेन्न लग्नं गुरोरंघ्रिपद्मे ततः किं ततः किं ततः किं ततः किम् ।।

Manaschenna lagnam Gurorangri padme, Thatha kim Thathah Kim, Thathah kim Thathah kim

If the mind does not remain at the Lotus feet of Guru, What is the use? What is the use? What is the use!!

Nagaraj

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Re: Yoga (Patanjali) is Not Sufficient - Panchadasi
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2013, 10:38:25 AM »
Śaṅkara on the Yoga-Sūtrā-S: The Vivaraṇa Sub-Commentary to Vyāsa-Bhāṣya on the Yoga-Sūtra-S of PātaƱjali

Vivarana published in 1952 (P. S. Rama Sastri and S. R. Krishnamurthi Sastri, Patanjala-yogasutra-bhasya-vivaranam of Sankara-bhagavatpada [Madras: Government Oriental Manuscripts Library, 1952])

Yogasutrabhasyavivarana of Sankara: Vivarana Text with English Translation and Critical Notes along with Text and English Translation of Patanjali's Yogasutras and Vyasabhasya, vols. 1 and 2. By T. S. RUKMANI. New Delhi: MUNSHIRAM MANOHARLAL PUBLISHERS, 2001. Pp. xxxii + 389; x + 230.

These two volumes combine texts and translations of three works, i.e., the Yogasutra (YS), its authoritative commentary Yogabhasya (YBh), and a subcommentary Vivarana. The focus is, as the title suggests, the subcommentary Vivarana. Texts and translations of the YS and the YBh are provided to help understand the subcommentary. The translations of them are taken from a previous publication of the author, the translation of the Yogavarttika of Vijnanabhiksu (p. ix). This is a second translation of the complete text of the Vivarana, in addition to Leggett (The Complete Commentary by Sankara on the Yoga Sutras: A Full Translation of the Newly Discovered Text [London: Kegan Paul, 1990]).



--
« Last Edit: March 20, 2013, 10:44:10 AM by Nagaraj »
मनश्चेन्न लग्नं गुरोरंघ्रिपद्मे ततः किं ततः किं ततः किं ततः किम् ।।

Manaschenna lagnam Gurorangri padme, Thatha kim Thathah Kim, Thathah kim Thathah kim

If the mind does not remain at the Lotus feet of Guru, What is the use? What is the use? What is the use!!

Tushnim.Asanam

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Re: Yoga (Patanjali) is Not Sufficient - Panchadasi
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2013, 10:46:17 AM »
The question is simple : Do you accept Vedanta panchadasi or not. Whether or not you agree with Vidhyanarayana swami.
 Yes or no.

For what ever reason ... if you think vidhyanarayana swami is "One sided", "Not broad in views" etc ... thats your choice.
The point is just this: Agree with Vidhyanarayana swami or not. Thats it.

Regarding pathanjali : are we aware why Shankara countered Pathanjali's ideas in some of his works ? Are we aware that he did that ?
Harih OM!
http://www.selfabidance.blogspot.in/

Nagaraj

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Re: Yoga (Patanjali) is Not Sufficient - Panchadasi
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2013, 10:50:55 AM »
The question is simple : Do you accept Vedanta panchadasi or not. Whether or not you agree with Vidhyanarayana swami.
 Yes or no.

For what ever reason ... if you think vidhyanarayana swami is "One sided", "Not broad in views" etc ... thats your choice.
The point is just this: Agree with Vidhyanarayana swami or not. Thats it.

Regarding pathanjali : are we aware why Shankara countered Pathanjali's ideas in some of his works ? Are we aware that he did that ?

The counter question is quite simple, do you accept the Sage Shandiya sutra or not? for the same what ever reason, it is your choice if you do not want to accept Sage Shandilya, Sage Patanjali and the likes, that their views are not sufficient!

You have conveyed else where, Shankara countered Sankhya Yoga, what about his Bhashya on Bhagavad Gita which has a whole chapter on Sankhya!

--
मनश्चेन्न लग्नं गुरोरंघ्रिपद्मे ततः किं ततः किं ततः किं ततः किम् ।।

Manaschenna lagnam Gurorangri padme, Thatha kim Thathah Kim, Thathah kim Thathah kim

If the mind does not remain at the Lotus feet of Guru, What is the use? What is the use? What is the use!!

Tushnim.Asanam

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Re: Yoga (Patanjali) is Not Sufficient - Panchadasi
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2013, 10:57:13 AM »
My stand is clear Nagaraj: Shankara is the authority ... I do not accept anything that deviates from shankara philosophy. Shandilya is not my authority ... if what he says is as per shankaracharya's views, i take it. As such I see what Shankara is saying ... clearly !!

and shankara criticizes certain aspects of pathanjali view ... are we aware of this ?

so i made my stand clear !
do you agree with vidhyanarayana swami in the above quote or not !! thats it! A simple straight question.

Harih OM!
http://www.selfabidance.blogspot.in/