Author Topic: Yoga (Patanjali) is Not Sufficient - Panchadasi  (Read 19800 times)

Tushnim.Asanam

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Re: Yoga (Patanjali) is Not Sufficient - Panchadasi
« Reply #45 on: March 20, 2013, 01:35:32 PM »
Dear Ravi ji,
             :)

Samyak AdhIyate iti samAdi: Mind thats totally absorbed in the source
Another way could be Sama+Dhi ... Dhi is Intellect. Sama is evenness.

निःसंगो निष्क्रियोऽसि त्वं स्वप्रकाशो निरंजनः।
अयमेव हि ते बन्धः समाधिमनुतिष्ठति ॥१-१५॥

Ashtavakra Gita: You are without any "Sangam" , without any "Action", Self Effulgent, Ever Spotless.
This alone is your bondage that you try for Samadhi.

Yoga is defined as citta vritti nirodah... elimination of thought forms. Samadhi or citta vritti nirodha is an aid for someone who has known the truth or has got jnanam to abide as Self.

Jnanam needs bodha or teaching from scriptures not citta vritti nirodham. This is wrong idea perpetuated by many swamis also ... including some very famous swamis.
Harih OM!
http://www.selfabidance.blogspot.in/

Nagaraj

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Re: Yoga (Patanjali) is Not Sufficient - Panchadasi
« Reply #46 on: March 20, 2013, 03:57:44 PM »
Friends,

Just to express that Sri Vidyaranya, has extensively quoted from Yoga Sutras of Patanjali in his Jivan Mukti Viveka in support  to establish the Truth of his expressions in that work.

--
मनश्चेन्न लग्नं गुरोरंघ्रिपद्मे ततः किं ततः किं ततः किं ततः किम् ।।

Manaschenna lagnam Gurorangri padme, Thatha kim Thathah Kim, Thathah kim Thathah kim

If the mind does not remain at the Lotus feet of Guru, What is the use? What is the use? What is the use!!

Tushnim.Asanam

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Re: Yoga (Patanjali) is Not Sufficient - Panchadasi
« Reply #47 on: March 20, 2013, 04:02:06 PM »
Dear Nagaraj,
            :) Yes Vidhyanarayana swami ji has indeed quoted pathanjali in Jivan Mukti viveka...
Because advaitins have viveka... they dismiss buddhism does not mean they dismiss everything they say. its not taking sides. We dismiss certain ideas of buddhism ... like the shunya vada. But at the same time we accept their meditation methods as useful.

The place of those methods is purification of mind but self knowledge alone can grant liberation.
Same vidhyananrayana swami has quoted in jivan mukthi viveka:

Quote
उपविश्योपविश्यैकचित्तकेन मुहुर्मुहुः।
न शक्यते मनो जेतुँ विन युक्तिम्-अनिन्दिताम्॥ [Laghu yoga vasishta 28.126]

By repeatedly bringing the mind back to One-pointedness, it cannot be conquered unless one is equipped with faultless reasoning [scriptural reasoning in the context]

Harih OM!
http://www.selfabidance.blogspot.in/

Nagaraj

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Re: Yoga (Patanjali) is Not Sufficient - Panchadasi
« Reply #48 on: March 20, 2013, 04:09:13 PM »
But Udai,

Haven't you in past, have conveyed ideas that nothing is required absolutely? one is already the knowledge? now you have come to express that yes, purification of mind is required.

Udai, there have been inconsistencies in your communication over some period, which is why i am urged to counter your views. You take strong stands without taking whole picture in to account.

I do not think anybody disagreed to the point of Chitta Shuddhi ever, anywhere.

More over, in the same topic of this Thread, i post from Vasishta -

द्वौ क्रमो चित्तनाशस्य योगो ज्ञानं च राघव ।
योगस्तद्वृत्तिरोधो हि ज्ञानं सम्यगवेक्षणम् ॥

असाध्यः कस्यचिद्योगः कस्यचिच्ज्ञाननिश्चयः ।
प्रकारौ द्वौ ततो देवो जगाद परमेश्वरः ॥


There are two ways to dissolve the mind, O Raghava! the one is yoga and the other is knowledge. Restraining the transformations of the mind is called yoga and right seeing is called knowledge.

and thus,
Yoga is unattainable for some and for the others realization through right knowledge is not possible. Therefore, God, the supreme Lord, said about the two varieties or means.

again is quoted by Sri Vidyaranya.

I would certainly never revolt, had you been reasonable and consistent in your views. Again i am not personally attacking you, rather, if you take it in right spirit and express in a balanced manner and with a fore-thought, your expressions will certainly be enjoyable and reasonable.

--
मनश्चेन्न लग्नं गुरोरंघ्रिपद्मे ततः किं ततः किं ततः किं ततः किम् ।।

Manaschenna lagnam Gurorangri padme, Thatha kim Thathah Kim, Thathah kim Thathah kim

If the mind does not remain at the Lotus feet of Guru, What is the use? What is the use? What is the use!!

Nagaraj

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Re: Yoga (Patanjali) is Not Sufficient - Panchadasi
« Reply #49 on: March 20, 2013, 04:14:20 PM »
            :) Yes Vidhyanarayana swami ji has indeed quoted pathanjali in Jivan Mukti viveka...
Because advaitins have viveka... they dismiss buddhism does not mean they dismiss everything they say. its not taking sides. We dismiss certain ideas of buddhism ... like the shunya vada. But at the same time we accept their meditation methods as useful.

Udai,

i would make a small observation -

Advaitins never dismissed Buddhism, the only dismissed avidya everywhere. Jnana dismisses Avidya even in Advaita as well, Jnana dismissed avidya anywhere and never the parent of any such school that is being dismissed.

--
मनश्चेन्न लग्नं गुरोरंघ्रिपद्मे ततः किं ततः किं ततः किं ततः किम् ।।

Manaschenna lagnam Gurorangri padme, Thatha kim Thathah Kim, Thathah kim Thathah kim

If the mind does not remain at the Lotus feet of Guru, What is the use? What is the use? What is the use!!

Nagaraj

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Re: Yoga (Patanjali) is Not Sufficient - Panchadasi
« Reply #50 on: March 20, 2013, 04:23:34 PM »
विवेकोऽपि योगे पर्यवस्यति

The application of discrimination becomes yoga itself.

(JMV, Sri Vidyaranya)

--
मनश्चेन्न लग्नं गुरोरंघ्रिपद्मे ततः किं ततः किं ततः किं ततः किम् ।।

Manaschenna lagnam Gurorangri padme, Thatha kim Thathah Kim, Thathah kim Thathah kim

If the mind does not remain at the Lotus feet of Guru, What is the use? What is the use? What is the use!!

ksksat27

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Re: Yoga (Patanjali) is Not Sufficient - Panchadasi
« Reply #51 on: March 20, 2013, 04:33:04 PM »
The question is simple : Do you accept Vedanta panchadasi or not. Whether or not you agree with Vidhyanarayana swami.
 Yes or no.

For what ever reason ... if you think vidhyanarayana swami is "One sided", "Not broad in views" etc ... thats your choice.
The point is just this: Agree with Vidhyanarayana swami or not. Thats it.

Regarding pathanjali : are we aware why Shankara countered Pathanjali's ideas in some of his works ? Are we aware that he did that ?


Dear Udai,  and others,


again and again this is going in a loop --  Yes or No , authentic or not as per such and such sage ,  such and such scripture etc.

this is not a law book like quran.

let us not make ourselves narrow minded and fanatic.

or we can believe that those who adopts simple japa without study of scritpures -- all of them straigh away going to land in hell.

Sri Ravi and Sri Nagaraj has only quoted correctly --  there are many many paths to Truth.

Whoever for whatever reason clings to only one way of attaining and condemns other ways --  something fundamentaly wrong in their attitudes.


Udai -- let me ask you simple question.  what are we going to achieve by this microscopic scriptural study and rejection of all other type of sadhanas?    is Realizaiton is a bonafide certificate to be issued by some university? 

Is this blue print has reference books shortlised to attain that degree? 

No.

Even assuming so,  if you say, all of us who dont subscribe to this view,  all of us go to darkness and hell -- well Udai, Truth shines there also fully.  There is no infinite suffering.   Hell can be made heaven by again that same simple devotion.


ISCKON did it,  Madhvas and Sri Vaishnavas did it,  Alleluyaa of Christ did it.  Let us not repeat that again here.



Tushnim.Asanam

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Re: Yoga (Patanjali) is Not Sufficient - Panchadasi
« Reply #52 on: March 20, 2013, 04:33:30 PM »
Dear Nagaraj,
        :) You should read what Vidhyanarayana swami is teaching in Jivan Mukthi Viveka carefully.
He clearly mentions that Realization is impossible without jnana .

He does mention Yoga as a practise for purification of mind. He clearly states at multiple places that its not possible to find liberation without jnana .
IF i give a list ... it would be pretty long :D ...

in jivan mukthi viveka , Vidhyanarayana swami makes a point to tell where yogic practises are useful.
infact the statement you quoted is from yoga vasistha as quoted by swami in jvm.
Harih OM!
http://www.selfabidance.blogspot.in/

Tushnim.Asanam

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Re: Yoga (Patanjali) is Not Sufficient - Panchadasi
« Reply #53 on: March 20, 2013, 04:35:40 PM »
Dear ksksat27,
     :D Why did shankara spend pages in every bhasya to dismiss karma and upasana as means of liberation?
why should he do such a thing and not say mimamsakas are fine ... they can do karma and find liberation :D

These are pure nonsense notions that there are lot of paths etc ... these are just ideas of neo-advaitins. nothing more.

Harih OM!
http://www.selfabidance.blogspot.in/

Nagaraj

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Re: Yoga (Patanjali) is Not Sufficient - Panchadasi
« Reply #54 on: March 20, 2013, 04:38:48 PM »
I do not think anywhere, it has been denied that jnana is not required. The only contention is that Jnana can dawn from any source. There is no fixed way. Jnana may happen at the even at the very instance of Nayana Dheeksha the holy glance of Realised Guru, and need not necessarily dawn only out of intellectual study. It may dawn in a devoted action of intense prayer to the Higher power and so on.

--
मनश्चेन्न लग्नं गुरोरंघ्रिपद्मे ततः किं ततः किं ततः किं ततः किम् ।।

Manaschenna lagnam Gurorangri padme, Thatha kim Thathah Kim, Thathah kim Thathah kim

If the mind does not remain at the Lotus feet of Guru, What is the use? What is the use? What is the use!!

Nagaraj

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Re: Yoga (Patanjali) is Not Sufficient - Panchadasi
« Reply #55 on: March 20, 2013, 04:40:50 PM »
Why did shankara spend pages in every bhasya to dismiss karma and upasana as means of liberation?
why should he do such a thing and not say mimamsakas are fine ... they can do karma and find liberation :D

These are pure nonsense notions that there are lot of paths etc ... these are just ideas of neo-advaitins. nothing more.

Perhaps Shankara was the only saint ever to standardize Karma and Upasanas. He established Shanmatam. He set the ground rules for sanyasa and the duties and upasanas for sanyasis, it is only from his dasanami tradition all other sanyasis have borrowed their standards. He regularised Ritual worship.

It is this hasty expression, i am against. They are untruth!

--
मनश्चेन्न लग्नं गुरोरंघ्रिपद्मे ततः किं ततः किं ततः किं ततः किम् ।।

Manaschenna lagnam Gurorangri padme, Thatha kim Thathah Kim, Thathah kim Thathah kim

If the mind does not remain at the Lotus feet of Guru, What is the use? What is the use? What is the use!!

ksksat27

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Re: Yoga (Patanjali) is Not Sufficient - Panchadasi
« Reply #56 on: March 20, 2013, 04:44:10 PM »
Dear ksksat27,
     :D Why did shankara spend pages in every bhasya to dismiss karma and upasana as means of liberation?
why should he do such a thing and not say mimamsakas are fine ... they can do karma and find liberation :D

These are pure nonsense notions that there are lot of paths etc ... these are just ideas of neo-advaitins. nothing more.

let it be Tushnim. 

that is where I am saying --  one just minds his own sadhana --  let him be neo or fake or whatever you call.

let him reach Hell also.

In Hell also, the Love can be felt and shared --- is not it?

His devotion and absolute faith in his own path,  his devotion and faith in his Guru who taught him --  It stands all tests in Hell and shine unto three worlds.

You will say, such a blind disciple reach hell along with his Guru --  let it be.

The modest acceptance and humility of the disciple will shine in Hell.


ksksat27

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Re: Yoga (Patanjali) is Not Sufficient - Panchadasi
« Reply #57 on: March 20, 2013, 04:45:50 PM »
Dear ksksat27,
     :D Why did shankara spend pages in every bhasya to dismiss karma and upasana as means of liberation?
why should he do such a thing and not say mimamsakas are fine ... they can do karma and find liberation :D

These are pure nonsense notions that there are lot of paths etc ... these are just ideas of neo-advaitins. nothing more.

let it be Tushnim. 

that is where I am saying --  one just minds his own sadhana --  let him be neo or fake or whatever you call.

let him reach Hell also.

In Hell also, the Love can be felt and shared --- is not it?

His devotion and absolute faith in his own path,  his devotion and faith in his Guru who taught him --  It stands all tests in Hell and shine unto three worlds.

You will say, such a blind disciple reach hell along with his Guru --  let it be.

The modest acceptance and humility of the disciple will shine in Hell.

And now Sri Chinmaya mission must come with a concept of eternal hell for such nonsense cases.  Because,  here disciple does not require further progress,  so we must block artificially by quoting some scritpures. no other way.  he has renounced even liberation.   



Tushnim.Asanam

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Re: Yoga (Patanjali) is Not Sufficient - Panchadasi
« Reply #58 on: March 20, 2013, 04:47:43 PM »
Dear Nagaraj,
          :) Once again "Viveka"... when i say Shankara dismisses karma leads to moksha ... it does not mean he dismisses karma altogether.
karma has its place.
its useful where its useful.
but it cannot lead to liberation.

This is viveka.
we are not taking sides "karma" or "jnana". ... Shankara does say clearly as to where karma is not useful and he is eloquent in it.
just coz he established rules or rituals ... it does not mean he says those are for liberation.
those serve a purpose of their own.
Harih OM!
http://www.selfabidance.blogspot.in/

Tushnim.Asanam

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Re: Yoga (Patanjali) is Not Sufficient - Panchadasi
« Reply #59 on: March 20, 2013, 04:48:48 PM »
Dear ksksat27,
     :D Why did shankara spend pages in every bhasya to dismiss karma and upasana as means of liberation?
why should he do such a thing and not say mimamsakas are fine ... they can do karma and find liberation :D

These are pure nonsense notions that there are lot of paths etc ... these are just ideas of neo-advaitins. nothing more.

let it be Tushnim. 

that is where I am saying --  one just minds his own sadhana --  let him be neo or fake or whatever you call.

let him reach Hell also.

In Hell also, the Love can be felt and shared --- is not it?

His devotion and absolute faith in his own path,  his devotion and faith in his Guru who taught him --  It stands all tests in Hell and shine unto three worlds.

You will say, such a blind disciple reach hell along with his Guru --  let it be.

The modest acceptance and humility of the disciple will shine in Hell.

What wierd concepts ksksat27 :D
Where did i bring in hell to this ?
Plz have the basic viveka to distinguish what is said and what is not said!!
Harih OM!
http://www.selfabidance.blogspot.in/