Author Topic: Yoga (Patanjali) is Not Sufficient - Panchadasi  (Read 19794 times)

Tushnim.Asanam

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Re: Yoga (Patanjali) is Not Sufficient - Panchadasi
« Reply #60 on: March 20, 2013, 04:51:20 PM »
Quote
बोधोऽन्यसाधनेभ्यो हि साक्षान्मोक्षैकसाधनम्।
पाकस्य विहिन्वत् झानम् विना मोक्षो न सिध्यति॥

Just as cooking is not possible without fire, Liberation is not possible without Jnanam.
Amongst the various means of liberation, Knowledge alone is the direct means.

अविरोधितया कर्म नाविद्याँ विनिवर्तयेत्।
विद्याविद्याँ निहन्त्येव तेजस्तिमिरसङघ्वत्॥

Karma being non-opposing to ignorance does not destroy it. Knowledge alone destroys ignorance, just as deep darkness is destoyed by light alone.


Atma bodha.

if i quote from Rama Gita and other texts ... you will be astonished to see how karma is dismissed.
again when we say karma is dismissed ... one should have basic viveka ... not to mean that if my car needs a repair, i do not do karma there !! so karma has a purpose ... but moksha is impossible without jnanam. karma alone is useless.
Harih OM!
http://www.selfabidance.blogspot.in/

Nagaraj

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Re: Yoga (Patanjali) is Not Sufficient - Panchadasi
« Reply #61 on: March 20, 2013, 04:52:55 PM »
Dear Nagaraj,
          :) Once again "Viveka"... when i say Shankara dismisses karma leads to moksha ... it does not mean he dismisses karma altogether.
karma has its place.
its useful where its useful.
but it cannot lead to liberation.

This is viveka.
we are not taking sides "karma" or "jnana". ... Shankara does say clearly as to where karma is not useful and he is eloquent in it.
just coz he established rules or rituals ... it does not mean he says those are for liberation.
those serve a purpose of their own.

The contentious statement made by you

Quote
"but it cannot lead to liberation."

is of concern for one who does karma with Phala Apeksha, with a desire for fruits of the action, be it spiritual or otherwise. But when the Fruits are surrendered, where is the point here?

You are basically revolving round and round and just merely saying, that karma with Phala Apeksha is binding.

Haven't we seen that even the desire to get liberated ought to be given up?

All this is binding when one has set eyes on the result. be it liberation as well!

--
मनश्चेन्न लग्नं गुरोरंघ्रिपद्मे ततः किं ततः किं ततः किं ततः किम् ।।

Manaschenna lagnam Gurorangri padme, Thatha kim Thathah Kim, Thathah kim Thathah kim

If the mind does not remain at the Lotus feet of Guru, What is the use? What is the use? What is the use!!

Tushnim.Asanam

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Re: Yoga (Patanjali) is Not Sufficient - Panchadasi
« Reply #62 on: March 20, 2013, 04:55:13 PM »
Dear Nagaraj,
         :) Whether with phala apeksha or without phala apeksha ...
karma only purifies the mind: enabling it to grasp the jnana.
jnana leads to moksha.

There is no choice here.
This is firmly and well stated by shankara ... if you read enough of shankara you would not have got these doubts.
Harih OM!
http://www.selfabidance.blogspot.in/

Nagaraj

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Re: Yoga (Patanjali) is Not Sufficient - Panchadasi
« Reply #63 on: March 20, 2013, 04:56:39 PM »
Quote
बोधोऽन्यसाधनेभ्यो हि साक्षान्मोक्षैकसाधनम्।
पाकस्य विहिन्वत् झानम् विना मोक्षो न सिध्यति॥

Just as cooking is not possible without fire, Liberation is not possible without Jnanam.
Amongst the various means of liberation, Knowledge alone is the direct means.

अविरोधितया कर्म नाविद्याँ विनिवर्तयेत्।
विद्याविद्याँ निहन्त्येव तेजस्तिमिरसङघ्वत्॥

Karma being non-opposing to ignorance does not destroy it. Knowledge alone destroys ignorance, just as deep darkness is destoyed by light alone.


Atma bodha.

if i quote from Rama Gita and other texts ... you will be astonished to see how karma is dismissed.
again when we say karma is dismissed ... one should have basic viveka ... not to mean that if my car needs a repair, i do not do karma there !! so karma has a purpose ... but moksha is impossible without jnanam. karma alone is useless.

Udai,

Karma is not dismissed, rather it is the kartrutva that is dismissed.

Karma is jada, no where the stress is laid on karma, the focus is ever on the kartrutva.

Chittasya shuddaye karmanaha na tu vastupa labhyate - shankara in Vivekachoodamani. Karmas are for purification purposes only and never for liberation.

I do not think anybody disagree with this.

But Having said this Shankara did not do away with Karma. He himself carried out tough anushtaanas and set examples for his disciples and people in society and got LIngas and established Mathas, and set the procedures for worship at various temples, from Pasupatinath temple in Nepal to Kamakshi temple in Kanchipuram.

--
मनश्चेन्न लग्नं गुरोरंघ्रिपद्मे ततः किं ततः किं ततः किं ततः किम् ।।

Manaschenna lagnam Gurorangri padme, Thatha kim Thathah Kim, Thathah kim Thathah kim

If the mind does not remain at the Lotus feet of Guru, What is the use? What is the use? What is the use!!

Nagaraj

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Re: Yoga (Patanjali) is Not Sufficient - Panchadasi
« Reply #64 on: March 20, 2013, 04:57:52 PM »
Dear Nagaraj,
         :) Whether with phala apeksha or without phala apeksha ...
karma only purifies the mind: enabling it to grasp the jnana.
jnana leads to moksha.

There is no choice here.
This is firmly and well stated by shankara ... if you read enough of shankara you would not have got these doubts.


This is what i said, you are saying the same now, after going round about, in the end! IT can never be said Karma is useless. YOu have in past made such statements, Karma is useless, i think even in this thread you have!

--
मनश्चेन्न लग्नं गुरोरंघ्रिपद्मे ततः किं ततः किं ततः किं ततः किम् ।।

Manaschenna lagnam Gurorangri padme, Thatha kim Thathah Kim, Thathah kim Thathah kim

If the mind does not remain at the Lotus feet of Guru, What is the use? What is the use? What is the use!!

Tushnim.Asanam

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Re: Yoga (Patanjali) is Not Sufficient - Panchadasi
« Reply #65 on: March 20, 2013, 04:58:51 PM »
Dear Nagaraj,
     :)

Quote
Chittasya shuddaye karmanaha na tu vastupa labhyate - shankara in Vivekachoodamani. Karmas are for purification purposes only and never for liberation.

I do not think anybody disagree with this.

But Having said this Shankara did not do away with Karma. He himself carried out tough anushtaanas and set examples for his disciples and people in society and got LIngas and established Mathas, and set the procedures for worship at various temples, from Pasupatinath temple in Nepal to Kamakshi temple in Kanchipuram.

This is Exactly the point. So if you agree to this ... all your meditation practises are only for chitta sudhi and only JNANA leads to Moksha. Thats all i am saying.
Harih OM!
http://www.selfabidance.blogspot.in/

Subramanian.R

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Re: Yoga (Patanjali) is Not Sufficient - Panchadasi
« Reply #66 on: March 20, 2013, 05:00:00 PM »
What is chitta vritti nirodham?  Being thoughtless. The thoughts come from mind/ego. If one does chttavritti nirodham, he becomes
egoless. Egoless state is Mukti.  Because the egoless state, pushes the mind back to the Self and that is Self realization.

Arunachala Siva.   

Tushnim.Asanam

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Re: Yoga (Patanjali) is Not Sufficient - Panchadasi
« Reply #67 on: March 20, 2013, 05:01:20 PM »
Dear Nagaraj,
         :) Whether with phala apeksha or without phala apeksha ...
karma only purifies the mind: enabling it to grasp the jnana.
jnana leads to moksha.

There is no choice here.
This is firmly and well stated by shankara ... if you read enough of shankara you would not have got these doubts.


This is what i said, you are saying the same now, after going round about, in the end! IT can never be said Karma is useless. YOu have in past made such statements, Karma is useless, i think even in this thread you have!

--

:) Yes I said that before I saw your other statment.
I never said karma is useless. its purpose is only to purify the mind and there it ends.
I have always maintained that karma cannot lead to moksha and only jnana does.
without jnana moksha is impossible.

This is my stand.
karma is for purification of mind ... not for vastu upalabdhi.

jnana is a must.
thats all that i am saying ... not now ... for a long time ...
so this being so there is no karma yoga, jnana yoga ... since vastu upalabdhi is only through jnana and not through karma. so karma is for a different purpose , jnana for another. and vastu is available only throgh jnana.

Harih OM!
http://www.selfabidance.blogspot.in/

Nagaraj

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Re: Yoga (Patanjali) is Not Sufficient - Panchadasi
« Reply #68 on: March 20, 2013, 05:01:38 PM »
Dear Nagaraj,
     :)

Quote
Chittasya shuddaye karmanaha na tu vastupa labhyate - shankara in Vivekachoodamani. Karmas are for purification purposes only and never for liberation.

I do not think anybody disagree with this.

But Having said this Shankara did not do away with Karma. He himself carried out tough anushtaanas and set examples for his disciples and people in society and got LIngas and established Mathas, and set the procedures for worship at various temples, from Pasupatinath temple in Nepal to Kamakshi temple in Kanchipuram.

This is Exactly the point. So if you agree to this ... all your meditation practises are only for chitta sudhi and only JNANA leads to Moksha. Thats all i am saying.

From the beginning, i can assure, no members disagree with this point! But, at the same time you have to accept this as well -

I do not think anywhere, it has been denied that jnana is not required. The only contention is that Jnana can dawn from any source. There is no fixed way. Jnana may happen at the even at the very instance of Nayana Dheeksha the holy glance of Realised Guru, and need not necessarily dawn only out of intellectual study. It may dawn in a devoted action of intense prayer to the Higher power and so on.

--
मनश्चेन्न लग्नं गुरोरंघ्रिपद्मे ततः किं ततः किं ततः किं ततः किम् ।।

Manaschenna lagnam Gurorangri padme, Thatha kim Thathah Kim, Thathah kim Thathah kim

If the mind does not remain at the Lotus feet of Guru, What is the use? What is the use? What is the use!!

Tushnim.Asanam

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Re: Yoga (Patanjali) is Not Sufficient - Panchadasi
« Reply #69 on: March 20, 2013, 05:03:47 PM »
What is chitta vritti nirodham?  Being thoughtless. The thoughts come from mind/ego. If one does chttavritti nirodham, he becomes
egoless. Egoless state is Mukti.  Because the egoless state, pushes the mind back to the Self and that is Self realization.

Arunachala Siva.   

This is exactly what panchadasi rejects. This is precisely the objection raised by purvapaksha and panchadasi rejects it outright.

This is why i wrote this thread in the first place.

Quote
Chapter 4: verse 38:
bandas chet maanasam dvaitam tannirodhena shaamyati |
abhyased yogameva atah brahma jnanena kim vada ?

[Objection raised by purva paksha: If mind causes bondages through duality, nirodha (citta vritti nirodha) or elimination of it shall resolve this duality (shaamyati). so only Yoga (that yoga which helps citta vritti nirodha) is sufficient for this purpose; what is the necessity of knowledge of brahman ?]

Verse 39:
taatkalika dvaita shaantau apyagavijanischayah
brahmajnanam vina nasayad iti vedanta dindimah ||

[taatkalika dvaita shaantau : temporarily the thoughts get eliminated (in nirvikalpa samadhi)
  api ... even thought ...
 agami jani kshayah nashyat : future samsara cannot be destroyed (by this process )
 brahma jnanam vina : without brahma jnanam
 nasyad iti vedanta dindimah : vedanta loudly proclaims that without brahma jnana this is not possible.

Though there can be temporary elimination of thought [through mind control) without brahma jnanam the future arising of mind will not cease. ]


Harih OM!
http://www.selfabidance.blogspot.in/

Tushnim.Asanam

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Re: Yoga (Patanjali) is Not Sufficient - Panchadasi
« Reply #70 on: March 20, 2013, 05:06:06 PM »
Quote
I do not think anywhere, it has been denied that jnana is not required. The only contention is that Jnana can dawn from any source. There is no fixed way. Jnana may happen at the even at the very instance of Nayana Dheeksha the holy glance of Realised Guru, and need not necessarily dawn only out of intellectual study. It may dawn in a devoted action of intense prayer to the Higher power and so on.


:D LOL! Jnana is obtained through study of scriptures ... not through nayana dheeksha :D ...
sravana-manana-nidhidhyasanam leads to jnana .
mahavakya vichara alone leads to jnana ... this is why maha-vakya - vichara is given that importance in sadhana panchakam.

give me a single referece from shankara works where he says nayana deeksha gives moksha :D ... if that were so then sri krishna wasted his whole time !

nayana deeksha ... LOL!
Harih OM!
http://www.selfabidance.blogspot.in/

Tushnim.Asanam

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Re: Yoga (Patanjali) is Not Sufficient - Panchadasi
« Reply #71 on: March 20, 2013, 05:07:17 PM »
A person seeking knowledge should go to a guru who is a Srotriya and Brahma Nishta and learn Scriptures from him.... how many references should i give you of this statement ?

can you show me one reference by shankara of nayana deeksha as a means to jnana !?
Harih OM!
http://www.selfabidance.blogspot.in/

Nagaraj

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Re: Yoga (Patanjali) is Not Sufficient - Panchadasi
« Reply #72 on: March 20, 2013, 05:09:08 PM »
You said -

Quote
Though there can be temporary elimination of thought [through mind control) without brahma jnanam the future arising of mind will not cease.

There is not sayingm, without Brahma Jnanam. Brahma Jnanam is merely the residue that shines when there is complete Chitta Shuddhi

There are several ways to attain that unsullied Chitta Shuddhi. From Yoga, to Bhakti to Karma to Hata Yoga, all are advised even in Yoga Vasishtam.

I do not think there is anything to disagree, if there is no complete CHitta Shuddhi there is no Brahma Jnanam.

But, you say, without Brahma Jnanam the future arising of mind will not cease.

Brahma Jnana is the residue that is already our nature that is hidden due to impurities in Citta.

--
मनश्चेन्न लग्नं गुरोरंघ्रिपद्मे ततः किं ततः किं ततः किं ततः किम् ।।

Manaschenna lagnam Gurorangri padme, Thatha kim Thathah Kim, Thathah kim Thathah kim

If the mind does not remain at the Lotus feet of Guru, What is the use? What is the use? What is the use!!

Tushnim.Asanam

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Re: Yoga (Patanjali) is Not Sufficient - Panchadasi
« Reply #73 on: March 20, 2013, 05:15:13 PM »
Dear Nagaraj,
    :)
Quote
Brahma Jnanam is merely the residue that shines when there is complete Chitta Shuddhi

Another wrong idea. This jnana is something to be practised in nidhidhyasanam and mananam.
its not the residue of purification of mind. otherwise why even study scriptures ? why not simply sit
and practise yoga. This is the idea that was rejected by panchadasi in this thread start.

Atma bodha says:
Quote
अझानकलुषँ जीवँ झानाभ्यासाद्विनिर्मलम्।
कृत्वा झानँ स्वयँ नश्येज्जलँ कतकरेणुवत्॥

Jiva(individual) who is defiled by ignorance can purify himself with the practise of jnana or self knowledge. Having purified the jiva (individual) the knowledge gets resolved too, as even when the power of kataka nut is added to water it settles the impurities in it and having done that it also settles down at the bottom.


Practise of jnana ... and then having established the person jnana leaves.
so this jnana ... cannot be ... residue to pure mind !!
Harih OM!
http://www.selfabidance.blogspot.in/

Nagaraj

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Re: Yoga (Patanjali) is Not Sufficient - Panchadasi
« Reply #74 on: March 20, 2013, 05:15:25 PM »
A person seeking knowledge should go to a guru who is a Srotriya and Brahma Nishta and learn Scriptures from him.... how many references should i give you of this statement ?

can you show me one reference by shankara of nayana deeksha as a means to jnana !?

Firstly, Your prejudice is very evident in your above statement (given below) by mentioning only Shankara!!!! :D

Quote
can you show me one reference by shankara of nayana deeksha as a means to jnana !

Please read Srimad Bhagavatam, there are plenmty of instances, where you will find the prostitude, Gajendra Moksha, Story of Ajamila, etc... there are plenty, Gopikas!

--
मनश्चेन्न लग्नं गुरोरंघ्रिपद्मे ततः किं ततः किं ततः किं ततः किम् ।।

Manaschenna lagnam Gurorangri padme, Thatha kim Thathah Kim, Thathah kim Thathah kim

If the mind does not remain at the Lotus feet of Guru, What is the use? What is the use? What is the use!!