Author Topic: Yoga (Patanjali) is Not Sufficient - Panchadasi  (Read 19791 times)

Tushnim.Asanam

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Re: Yoga (Patanjali) is Not Sufficient - Panchadasi
« Reply #75 on: March 20, 2013, 05:16:27 PM »
BTW Nagaraj ... you are giving all the purvapaksha arguments that were raised against shankara / vidhyaranya swami. :) :D
Harih OM!
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Nagaraj

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Re: Yoga (Patanjali) is Not Sufficient - Panchadasi
« Reply #76 on: March 20, 2013, 05:17:20 PM »
Dear Nagaraj,
    :)
Quote
Brahma Jnanam is merely the residue that shines when there is complete Chitta Shuddhi

Another wrong idea. This jnana is something to be practised in nidhidhyasanam and mananam.
its not the residue of purification of mind. otherwise why even study scriptures ? why not simply sit
and practise yoga. This is the idea that was rejected by panchadasi in this thread start.

Atma bodha says:
Quote
अझानकलुषँ जीवँ झानाभ्यासाद्विनिर्मलम्।
कृत्वा झानँ स्वयँ नश्येज्जलँ कतकरेणुवत्॥

Jiva(individual) who is defiled by ignorance can purify himself with the practise of jnana or self knowledge. Having purified the jiva (individual) the knowledge gets resolved too, as even when the power of kataka nut is added to water it settles the impurities in it and having done that it also settles down at the bottom.


Practise of jnana ... and then having established the person jnana leaves.
so this jnana ... cannot be ... residue to pure mind !!

Nidhidhyasana is also mere for Chitta Shuddhi purposes only! If one is established why practice nidhidhyasa? Its only because there is potential for the CHitta to be corrupted!

You are just saying the same Udai, going round and round!

Any practice is only for CHitta Shuddhi! Abidance if not practice! Abidance is pure Nishta or Being!

--
मनश्चेन्न लग्नं गुरोरंघ्रिपद्मे ततः किं ततः किं ततः किं ततः किम् ।।

Manaschenna lagnam Gurorangri padme, Thatha kim Thathah Kim, Thathah kim Thathah kim

If the mind does not remain at the Lotus feet of Guru, What is the use? What is the use? What is the use!!

Tushnim.Asanam

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Re: Yoga (Patanjali) is Not Sufficient - Panchadasi
« Reply #77 on: March 20, 2013, 05:19:15 PM »
Dear Nagaraj,
  :) Prejudiced or otherwise ... Shankara clearly dismissed lot of views... if bhagaatam believes otherwise or vishnu puran or siva puran speak something else ... i take them only as long as they are as per Shankara's teachings ... else they have to be rejected outright. This is my stand ... whether or not others agree.

so all i am saying ehre also is that shankara does not support nayana deeksha , touch deeksa etc ... they may lull the mind but not give moksha.
Harih OM!
http://www.selfabidance.blogspot.in/

Nagaraj

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Re: Yoga (Patanjali) is Not Sufficient - Panchadasi
« Reply #78 on: March 20, 2013, 05:23:04 PM »
You are Rama Bhaka,

Do you believe at least in Rama? Do you believe Ramas feet touching the stone liberated Ahalya?

Your interpretation of nayana dheeksha etc.. is merely restricted to one birth on hand, you do not know how many birth one had and how much sadhana has one already performed, look at Hastamalaka look, he never spoke a word before Shankara came to him, he was categorised as deff and dumb. Look at Bhagavan Ramana.



BTW, do you have trust in Srimad Bhagavatam?



--
मनश्चेन्न लग्नं गुरोरंघ्रिपद्मे ततः किं ततः किं ततः किं ततः किम् ।।

Manaschenna lagnam Gurorangri padme, Thatha kim Thathah Kim, Thathah kim Thathah kim

If the mind does not remain at the Lotus feet of Guru, What is the use? What is the use? What is the use!!

Subramanian.R

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Re: Yoga (Patanjali) is Not Sufficient - Panchadasi
« Reply #79 on: March 20, 2013, 05:23:54 PM »
Dear Tusnim,

What Sri Bhagavan referred to was permanent irreversible thoughtless state. Egoless state - permanent.  Simple thoughtless
state will only a glimpse of the Self. Only permanent egoless state helps in abidance in Self.

In Vivekachudamani, Sri Sankara uses the phrase Nayana Kataksham.


Arunachala Siva.   

Nagaraj

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Re: Yoga (Patanjali) is Not Sufficient - Panchadasi
« Reply #80 on: March 20, 2013, 05:25:19 PM »
BTW Tushnim

  :) Prejudiced or otherwise ... Shankara clearly dismissed lot of views... if bhagaatam believes otherwise or vishnu puran or siva puran speak something else ... i take them only as long as they are as per Shankara's teachings ... else they have to be rejected outright. This is my stand ... whether or not others agree.

so all i am saying ehre also is that shankara does not support nayana deeksha , touch deeksa etc ... they may lull the mind but not give moksha.

DO not believe, that you have completely read and studied all about Shankara! The Shankaracharya of Sringeri is more humble than you!

--
मनश्चेन्न लग्नं गुरोरंघ्रिपद्मे ततः किं ततः किं ततः किं ततः किम् ।।

Manaschenna lagnam Gurorangri padme, Thatha kim Thathah Kim, Thathah kim Thathah kim

If the mind does not remain at the Lotus feet of Guru, What is the use? What is the use? What is the use!!

Tushnim.Asanam

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Re: Yoga (Patanjali) is Not Sufficient - Panchadasi
« Reply #81 on: March 20, 2013, 05:25:46 PM »
Nidhidhyasana ... means prior sravana-manana.
without sravana - manana nidhidhyasanam is not possible.
Quote
M.: A mere desire to be Liberated cannot make a man fit
for enquiry into the Self. Without sravana one cannot have even
an indirect knowledge. How can one succeed in one’s enquiry?
Only after knowing the nature of the Self, should one proceed
to seek It. Ignorant of Its true nature, how can one investigate
the Self? Simple desire to be liberated will not suffice.


13-14. D.: Can the Self not be realised by austerities
accompanied by desirelessness and tranquillity, without enquiry?

M.: No. By non-enquiry the Self has been lost sight of; to
regain It enquiry is needed. In its absence how can even crores
of austerities restore the sight? Always to enquire into the Self is
the only remedy for the blindness of the ignorant whose mental
eye has been bedimmed by the darkness of non-enquiry
spreading its veil. Unless by the eye of knowledge gained
through enquiry, the Self cannot be realised.

15-16. D.: What is this enquiry into the Self?

M.: With one-pointed intellect to seek within the five
sheaths the Self which is shining forth as “I” in the body, senses
etc., considering “who is this Self?, where is It? and how is It?”,
is the nature of the enquiry into the Self. With subtle intellect
the enquiry into the Reality, namely the Self within the unreal
sheaths must always be pursued.

D.: How can an investigation into unreal things lead to
the recognition of the Reality?

M.: The unreal coverings must be removed to disclose the
Reality hidden in them. They are superimposed on the Real Self.
They must be examined and ascertained to be unreal so that their
substratum which is the sole Reality can be known. Unless the
external trappings that are superimposed are looked into, their
substratum, that is the Reality, cannot be found. Has any one in
the world been able to find the rope without looking and enquiring
into the nature of the seeming snake, though this is superimposed
on it and unreal? Or can there be any one, who having enquired
into the superimposed snake, did not discover its substratum to be
the rope? No one.
In the same manner an indirect knowledge
should be gained by sravana that the five sheaths are superimposed
and unreal; but by a keen intellect the seeker must probe deep into
this superficial knowledge and experience the truth of it; just as the
directly experienced gross body is clearly known to be built up by
food and recognised to be only the food-sheath covering the Self,
so also the other four subtler sheaths remaining unknown to the
common people but taught by the scriptures and the master must
be known by their characteristics; they must be enquired into and
directly experienced; at the same time they must be recognised to
be only sheaths and successively dismissed in order to seek their
witness, Consciousness-Being or the subtle Self.



: Advaita Bodha deepika.

Harih OM!
http://www.selfabidance.blogspot.in/

Tushnim.Asanam

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Re: Yoga (Patanjali) is Not Sufficient - Panchadasi
« Reply #82 on: March 20, 2013, 05:27:38 PM »
BTW Tushnim

  :) Prejudiced or otherwise ... Shankara clearly dismissed lot of views... if bhagaatam believes otherwise or vishnu puran or siva puran speak something else ... i take them only as long as they are as per Shankara's teachings ... else they have to be rejected outright. This is my stand ... whether or not others agree.

so all i am saying ehre also is that shankara does not support nayana deeksha , touch deeksa etc ... they may lull the mind but not give moksha.

DO not believe, that you have completely read and studied all about Shankara! The Shankaracharya of Sringeri is more humble than you!

--

Humility is not an expression. Saying "I am Humble, I wont disagree with anyone" is not humility.
to be humble is something internal... one need not "Express humility" and if one expresses its not truely humility.
Understanding is To Get the Vision of Truth.
I have the vision of truth as presented by Shankara ... Aparoksha jnana ... once htis is there , i know what and why he is syaing what he is saying.
Harih OM!
http://www.selfabidance.blogspot.in/

Nagaraj

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Re: Yoga (Patanjali) is Not Sufficient - Panchadasi
« Reply #83 on: March 20, 2013, 05:29:12 PM »
Nidhidhyasana ... means prior sravana-manana.
without sravana - manana nidhidhyasanam is not possible.

ok! accept it, what about it? This Sravana Manana Nidhidhyasa may happen in any manner, there is no standard protocol  See this Story of Narada, all the said Sravana manana nidhidhyasa happens at Grace, he did not even know what sravana manana nidhidhyasa was  -

nAradA's past

In my previous birth in an earlier kalpA (cycle of time) I was born as the son of a maid-servant in a community of vEdic ritualists. I was, therefore, from boyhood engaged in attending on yOgIs who gathered at the place for the chAturmAsyA (4 month retreat during rainy season) Those holy men, though even minded in their outlook, were mightily pleased with my services, especially seeing how I, thought a mere boy, was devoid of all fickleness and boyish playfulness, was disciplined and brief-spoke, and atteneded on them with dedication and understanding of their needs.

Permitted by these holy men, I once partook of the remnants of the food left by them Being purified in mind by this act, I developed a taste for the devotional life which these holy men followed. By their blessing I was able to hear every day their attractive recitals of kRushnA's life and actions. Hearing every syllable of those recitals with faith and attention, I developed the feeling of delight in the Lord, whose glories are charming to contemplate.

After I developed this delight in the Lord, my mind would never disengage itself from Him of endearing glory. In this mental state I experienced that the whole of the universe in its subtle as well as gross condition is generated y His power of mAyA in Himself, from whom my entity, the jIvA, too has no separate existence.

Listening continuously all through the spring and the rainy season, at the three sandhyAs of the day, to the recitals of the Lord's sanctifying glory by these holy men, there sprang up in me that powerful devotion which obliterates all traces of tamas and rajas.

When dispersing after the chAturmAsyA period, the kind-hearted and merciful holymen imparted to me the transcendent knowledge of the Supreme Divine (jnyAnam guhyatamam), whjich He himself had revelaed to them. For, though a boy, they found in me a fit recipient, as I was loving, humble, sinless, attentive, self-controlled and obedient.

By that knowledge I was enabled to obtain the grace of the mAyA of vAsudEvA, the omiscient and omnipotent Lord, by which the jIvA attains to His being.

(nAradA to Sage vyAsA, when vyAsA was discontent inspite of segregating the vEdAs, writing mahAbhAratA, etc.,)

(I, 5, 23-31)



--
मनश्चेन्न लग्नं गुरोरंघ्रिपद्मे ततः किं ततः किं ततः किं ततः किम् ।।

Manaschenna lagnam Gurorangri padme, Thatha kim Thathah Kim, Thathah kim Thathah kim

If the mind does not remain at the Lotus feet of Guru, What is the use? What is the use? What is the use!!

Nagaraj

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Re: Yoga (Patanjali) is Not Sufficient - Panchadasi
« Reply #84 on: March 20, 2013, 05:31:45 PM »
Humility is not an expression. Saying "I am Humble, I wont disagree with anyone" is not humility.
to be humble is something internal... one need not "Express humility" and if one expresses its not truely humility.
Understanding is To Get the Vision of Truth.

I have the vision of truth as presented by Shankara ... Aparoksha jnana ... once htis is there , i know what and why he is syaing what he is saying.

Fine, i am not going to question your claim, you may know. Just remember the following, i had already posted.

न चाध्यात्माभिमानोऽपि विदुषोऽस्त्यासुरत्वतः ।
विदुषोऽप्यासुरश्चेत्स्यान्निष्फलं ब्रह्मदर्शनम् ॥


There cannot be pride of learning in a knower of Brahman because
such things belong to the demoniac; if even a knower of Brahman
suffers from this demoniac quality then his knowledge is futile.

(Sureshwaracharya, Naishkarmya siddhi)

ननु विजिगीषोरात्मबोध एव नास्ति,

Vidyaranya - Moreover, there is not even Self-knowledge in him who
is desirious of defeating others, Sureshwaracharya quoted from Naishkarmyasiddhi, thus:

रागो लिङ्गमबोधस्य चित्तव्यायामभूमिषु ।
कुतः शाद्वलता तस्य यस्याग्निः कोटरे तरोः ॥

Attachment to the grounds on which the mind exercises indicates absence of knowledge.
How can a tree remain verdant which has fire in its hollow?

याज्ञवल्क्यस्तु विजिगीषुदशायां न हीदृशः, चित्तविश्रान्तये विद्वत्संन्यासस्य तेन करिष्यमाणत्वात् । न केवलमस्य विजिगीषा किंतु धनतृष्णापि महती जाता, यतो, बहूनां ब्रह्माविदां पुरतः स्थापितं सालंकारं गोसहस्रमपहृत्य स्वयमेवेदमाह - नमो वयं ब्रह्मिष्ठाय कुर्मो गोकामा एव वयं स्मः ।

Yajnavalkya was verily not in this state while he was still desirous of victory in disputation, since he was yet to take the vidvatsannyaasa in order to set the mind at rest. Not only he was desirous of victory but had a great thirst for wealth as well, since he, while carrying away thousand cows decorated with gold and put before the assembly of many knowers of Brahman, himself said thus - 'we bow to the wisest of the Brahmanas, but we just wish to have the cows.'

(Vidyaranya, Jivanmukti Viveka)

--
मनश्चेन्न लग्नं गुरोरंघ्रिपद्मे ततः किं ततः किं ततः किं ततः किम् ।।

Manaschenna lagnam Gurorangri padme, Thatha kim Thathah Kim, Thathah kim Thathah kim

If the mind does not remain at the Lotus feet of Guru, What is the use? What is the use? What is the use!!

Tushnim.Asanam

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Re: Yoga (Patanjali) is Not Sufficient - Panchadasi
« Reply #85 on: March 20, 2013, 05:33:10 PM »
You are Rama Bhaka,

Do you believe at least in Rama? Do you believe Ramas feet touching the stone liberated Ahalya?

Your interpretation of nayana dheeksha etc.. is merely restricted to one birth on hand, you do not know how many birth one had and how much sadhana has one already performed, look at Hastamalaka look, he never spoke a word before Shankara came to him, he was categorised as deff and dumb. Look at Bhagavan Ramana.



BTW, do you have trust in Srimad Bhagavatam?



--

Dear Nagaraj, Did you read Ramayana ? Was ahalya a stone ? This is typical TV Ramayana .
Ahalya was asked in Valmiki Ramayana to sit like a stone ... not be a stone.
And she had already studied the scriptures.
there were specific spiritual instructions given to her...
if you read valmiki ramayana.

and plz stop quoting puranas ... coz puranas may or may not be in accordance with shankara's teachings.
there are many contradictory and wrong ideas also in puranas.

Finally...
Quote
ok! accept it, what about it? This Sravana Manana Nidhidhyasa may happen in any manner, there is no standard protocol  See this Story of Narada, all the said Sravana manana nidhidhyasa happens at Grace, he did not even know what sravana manana nidhidhyasa was  -


Sravana means hearing scriptures.
if one does not know how it happened :D LOL thats interesting !! IT just means he was sleeping all along :D

I have nothing against narada or bhagavatam ... they just teach bhakti
Harih OM!
http://www.selfabidance.blogspot.in/

Nagaraj

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Re: Yoga (Patanjali) is Not Sufficient - Panchadasi
« Reply #86 on: March 20, 2013, 05:35:40 PM »
Oh Udai,

Long long before i have mentioned many times in the forum even to you the real significnce of ahalya turning into stone -

Dear Udai,

That Ahalya became a stone is described in all other kinds of Ramayanas, especially in the Kamba Ramayana and Tulasi Ramayana. But it is just a poetic expression of the poet. Becoming a stone does not mean literally. It means Ahalya lost her glory and wisdom and discernments and discrimination and remained like a "jada" She had become a stone hearted and had lost all the virtues of a celebrated human being.

I too have seen so may say things about Ahalya, they say things without proper understanding and discerning the inner essence of the poets expression.

Such a stone hearted Ahalya needed the Sparsha Dheeksha of the soft hands of Sri Rama and his sweet and caressing words of Sri Rama. One of the names of Sri Rama in Sri Rama Ashtottara is "Mridu Bhashine" meaning "Soft Spoken"

Look at the story of Angulimaala who used to kill people and cut the persons thumb and had it as a garland as a testimony to his killing. He needed the soft words of Buddha to wake him up, He was a stone too, till Buddha's touch graced him!

Salutations to Bhagavan

--
मनश्चेन्न लग्नं गुरोरंघ्रिपद्मे ततः किं ततः किं ततः किं ततः किम् ।।

Manaschenna lagnam Gurorangri padme, Thatha kim Thathah Kim, Thathah kim Thathah kim

If the mind does not remain at the Lotus feet of Guru, What is the use? What is the use? What is the use!!

Tushnim.Asanam

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Re: Yoga (Patanjali) is Not Sufficient - Panchadasi
« Reply #87 on: March 20, 2013, 05:37:09 PM »
Dear Nagaraj,
     :) There is no ahalya turning into stone episode in valmiki ramayana.
the verse just says she was asked to sit like a stone.

Anyways ... pride also is something internal.
externally whether i reject some ideas or not ... it hardly matters.
a person who accepts everything does not mean he has no pride.
one need not express "non-pride" as well.
Harih OM!
http://www.selfabidance.blogspot.in/

Nagaraj

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Re: Yoga (Patanjali) is Not Sufficient - Panchadasi
« Reply #88 on: March 20, 2013, 05:37:17 PM »
and plz stop quoting puranas ... coz puranas may or may not be in accordance with shankara's teachings.
there are many contradictory and wrong ideas also in puranas.

Finally...
Sravana means hearing scriptures.
if one does not know how it happened :D LOL thats interesting !! IT just means he was sleeping all along :D

I have nothing against narada or bhagavatam ... they just teach bhakti

You are ridiculous! DO you realise You are even Against Shankara!:D :D

God Bless you!

--
मनश्चेन्न लग्नं गुरोरंघ्रिपद्मे ततः किं ततः किं ततः किं ततः किम् ।।

Manaschenna lagnam Gurorangri padme, Thatha kim Thathah Kim, Thathah kim Thathah kim

If the mind does not remain at the Lotus feet of Guru, What is the use? What is the use? What is the use!!

Tushnim.Asanam

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Re: Yoga (Patanjali) is Not Sufficient - Panchadasi
« Reply #89 on: March 20, 2013, 05:39:38 PM »
Dear Nagaraj,
     :) Puranas are not Shabda Pramanas.
Shankara might have quoted them at some places only to give examples ...

shanakra did not quote bhagavatam anywhere in his bhasyams do you know this ?
coz quoting puranas does not matter.

however quoting a prakarana grantha makes some sense ... like quoting yoga vasishta or one of the shankara's prakarana granthas ... coz those are elaborations or thesis on the shaba pramanas.
Harih OM!
http://www.selfabidance.blogspot.in/